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Thunderduck
06-06-2005, 06:37 PM
I keep jumping the ball accidentally on my draw shot... in Jeanette Lee's book she says you can solve this be elevating the cue and hitting down on the cue ball... wont this create more possibility of a miscue? What is the secret of hitting really low on the cue ball without jumping it?

tduck

Gayle in MD
06-06-2005, 07:22 PM
Don't hit it too hard, and follow through. I'm no instructor, but it sounds like you must be hitting it too low. It's the follow through, and the hit below the shadow on the ball, six o'clock, level cue, Keep trying, good luck /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in Md.

Thunderduck
06-06-2005, 07:32 PM
Here is what Black Widow says:

"It is easy to miscue on the draw shot, because you cannot keep your cue 100 percent level. So.. elevate the butt of your cue slightly. My problem was that in an effort to create backspin, I would wind up digging under the ball. Eventually I learnt... I had to add some downward motion, which I achieved by elevating the back of my cue."

Good advice, or recipe for disaster?

Drop1
06-06-2005, 08:14 PM
Check your tip for shape,don't raise the butt.Imagine you are stroking the cue through the ball about four inches,and make sure your stroke is smooth,when you come back. Practice,and it will become easy. The reason for not raising the butt,is the way it will affect your aim. Don't forget to chalk.

ccrider
06-06-2005, 08:16 PM
hit much higher on the ball, problem solved.

Drop1
06-06-2005, 08:44 PM
The cue ball is 1and1/8" horizontal center line. The draw shot has to be low enough,so you draw the ball,and don't make a stop shot.

Rackin_Zack
06-06-2005, 08:59 PM
Check to make sure you're not dipping the tip to try to get draw on the ball. If you aren't dipping the tip (raising the elbow) then try moving your grip hand back a bit.

Thunderduck
06-06-2005, 09:16 PM
Ok, so all of you disagree with one of the best in the world? hmmm... maybe I will write her about this... one thing I know for certain is you have to hit the ball pretty low.. and you cant keep the cue level because of the rail, the 6 oclock is lower then the rail... other then that I'm pretty open minded about trying different advice...

tduck


tduck

nhp
06-07-2005, 12:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> Ok, so all of you disagree with one of the best in the world? hmmm... maybe I will write her about this... one thing I know for certain is you have to hit the ball pretty low.. and you cant keep the cue level because of the rail, the 6 oclock is lower then the rail... other then that I'm pretty open minded about trying different advice...

tduck


tduck <hr /></blockquote>

Did Jeanette's method work? If not, then try something else. If it does work, stick with it. Some people jack up their cue to draw the ball. Other's keep it as level as possible. It works both ways, but everyone is different so don't expect both methods to work for you.

Thunderduck
06-07-2005, 12:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> Ok, so all of you disagree with one of the best in the world? hmmm... maybe I will write her about this... one thing I know for certain is you have to hit the ball pretty low.. and you cant keep the cue level because of the rail, the 6 oclock is lower then the rail... other then that I'm pretty open minded about trying different advice...

tduck


tduck <hr /></blockquote>

Did Jeanette's method work? If not, then try something else. If it does work, stick with it. Some people jack up their cue to draw the ball. Other's keep it as level as possible. It works both ways, but everyone is different so don't expect both methods to work for you. <hr /></blockquote>

Well I dont really understand what she means because the cue is slightly elevated already due to the rail, so why elevate it even more? But I dont understand why people advise to keep a level cue because that is only possible on center hits, not on draw shots. Try dropping the cue below the rail and still keep it level, its completely impossible! Jeanette herself admitted she had 80 different people explain the draw shot to her before she mastered it. I have yet to see an explanation of this shot that makes sense.

tduck

Rod
06-07-2005, 12:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
What is the secret of hitting really low on the cue ball without jumping it?
<hr /></blockquote>

Actually there isn't any real secret. Do the math, when the cue tip hits on the edge of the radius, next to the side wall, a miscue is in the making.

Your job is strike the c/b somewhere lower than center but inside that edge to draw for the distance your shooting. The term is tip offset. More tip offset (lower but within the tip radius) for long shots. Not as much offset for short shots or max offset and slower speed.

The problem is (this has been covered many times) but tis ok, many people have a misconception of center. Lets say you don't have this problem. Then the real answer (which I suspect) is not hitting the c/b where you intended.

Fear not because their out there by the thousands. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif The answer most likely is your stroke. When you try to draw you get tense/tight. Just your question tells me you are lost and looking for something that makes sense.

NO, do not jack up the cue to draw the ball. There are reasons to elevate the cue to draw or follow but that's later on down the road. Yes I said follow as well because many people (although they think they can follow) (it's misleading just because a ball follows) are a couple of bricks short as well. LOL

First off, practice draw from a short distance, a foot or so. Learn how to (smoothly, greatly improves accuracy) accelerate the cue to &amp; through your intended target, the c/b. At that distance it is no effort to draw the ball 6 feet or more with max tip offset.
However you need to start close and build.

I think it's real important to go slow and build your confidence. As you gain confidence give yourself a greater distance. If you fail go back to a nice smooth motion at a closer distance.

Sure a bunch of people can draw the ball, but most haven't a clue how far it's going (pay attention). Develope feel, that is your cue speed relative to your task. Keep light and (consistant) grip pressure (very important) to help you hit (exactly) where you aimed. If you get tight (pay attention) grip pressure it will throw the cue off line. If you go off line guess what happens? You don't strike the c/b where intended! There is the secret, with knowledge of the game, you know how the c/b reacts for any given angle or speed. You know that because you strike the c/b and o/b where intended at the desired speed. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod

dr_dave
06-07-2005, 06:43 AM
A past thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=185769&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=&amp;PHPSESSID=) covered draw technique fairly well. Check it out.

Dr. Dave

Fred Agnir
06-07-2005, 06:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> I keep jumping the ball accidentally on my draw shot... in Jeanette Lee's book she says you can solve this be elevating the cue and hitting down on the cue ball... wont this create more possibility of a miscue? What is the secret of hitting really low on the cue ball without jumping it?

tduck <hr /></blockquote>Did you try it? It's been something I've been suggesting for years on this board. Yes, it has its own set of problems, but I've found that slight elevation helps a lot of people. There are technical reasons, none of which mean anything when compared to simple trying it.

Fred

dr_dave
06-07-2005, 06:56 AM
You should consider looking at some other books and/or talking to experienced and qualified instructors. I think most authors and instructors would disagree with her draw technique advice. She is a pro and a great player, but that doesn't mean everything she writes is best for most people.

Respectfully,
Dr. Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> Here is what Black Widow says:

"It is easy to miscue on the draw shot, because you cannot keep your cue 100 percent level. So.. elevate the butt of your cue slightly. My problem was that in an effort to create backspin, I would wind up digging under the ball. Eventually I learnt... I had to add some downward motion, which I achieved by elevating the back of my cue."

Good advice, or recipe for disaster?

<hr /></blockquote>

ryushen21
06-07-2005, 07:36 AM
I think that the first thing that you have to do is get a solid idea of where center ball is. Take a piece of chalk and set it up next to the cue ball. The top of that chalk is pretty close to center ball.

Another thing, are you aiming in the same place every time? Most of the time when that little jump happens to me i am trying to juice the CB pretty hard because i have to get back up table or something else and get out of my normal routine.

Just make sure that you are aiming in the same place every time and that you aren't trying to add more to it because it is a longer draw.

Billy_Bob
06-07-2005, 07:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> I keep jumping the ball accidentally on my draw shot... <hr /></blockquote>

1. Slow down! "It is never necessary to strike harder than sufficient to reach the object ball and get back to the carom ball unless one is playing for position." (From 1897 Hoyle's book by Foster)

2. Plenty of chalk on sides of tip - look at tip under light to be sure there are no slick spots after applying chalk. Chalk well before *each* draw shot.

3. I have had success learning not to do something by practicing doing what I do not want to do. So it may be helpful to try jumping (scooping) the ball for about 10 shots, then try drawing the ball for about 10 shots, then try the jump/scoop shots again.

Deeman2
06-07-2005, 08:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> I keep jumping the ball accidentally on my draw shot... <hr /></blockquote>

1. Slow down! "It is never necessary to strike harder than sufficient to reach the object ball and get back to the carom ball unless one is playing for position." (From 1897 Hoyle's book by Foster) <font color="blue"> Good Advice! </font color>

2. Plenty of chalk on sides of tip - look at tip under light to be sure there are no slick spots after applying chalk. Chalk well before *each* draw shot.

3. I have had success learning not to do something by practicing doing what I do not want to do. So it may be helpful to try jumping (scooping) the ball for about 10 shots, then try drawing the ball for about 10 shots, then try the jump/scoop shots again. <font color="blue"> Billie Bob, Isn't that a little like practicing throwing gutter balls in bowling? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

deeman
<hr /></blockquote>

Scott Lee
06-07-2005, 10:56 AM
Great post from Rod! A loose grip, and a SMOOTH transition to the forward delivery of the cue are essential elements for easy draw. Force does not equal speed...a tight grip and punch will not deliver as much backspin, as letting the weight of the cue, and timing, do all the work. The stroke is more about a "throwing motion", and draw is just one element of that!

Scott Lee

bluey2king
06-07-2005, 12:20 PM
What I think Jennett means is that because of the rail your cue butt can Not be level. I would like to pass on how I learned because I too had a hard time, especialy during match play.
Start with a OB center of table and hit four perfect stop shots into the side. Easy right hitting the cue ball just slightly below center (1/16) POP in four in a row. set them up again Now hit just a 1/2 cue tip below center...see the cue ball come back about two balls? Now one cue tip below center..four more. Now deliver the stroke with a lose wrist and keep the cue tip at just one tip below center. See the differance with the lose wrist vs the tight wrist of the Stop shot? Make just one adjustment at a time and no need to hit real hard...when you do you will tighten up..everthing from your bridge hand to your shoulder and bicep..that will cause you to not hit the cueball where you think you are. The target cue ball is great for this, but you can use a striped ball as the cueball. Set it so the edge of the strips is just where you want it ie one cue tip below center, chalk up and hit it with a good draw stroke pushing through it to the table (Not Hard) now look to see if the chalk mark is where you think it shoud be?? This helped alot for me..when I got the chalk mark where I wanted it the ball drew real good. The problem I ran into was I wanted alot of draw so I hit it real Hard and hit it higher than I wanted this turned it into a semi-stop shot.
Good Luck and relax...good follow stroke but low.

cheese_ball
06-07-2005, 12:27 PM
Your best bet is to seek the help of a professional. There are many great billiards instructors out there that would be happy to help you improve your game. If you are EXTREMELY fortunate, you will be able to recieve a lesson from Scott Lee. I noticed that he responded to your post already.

ccrider
06-07-2005, 04:35 PM
Byrne says low and level, a stiff wrist, a long follow through. bonzai...
Somebody dig the cue ball out of the wall for me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in MD
06-08-2005, 04:05 AM
I don't agree with that, especially for someone just learning. I once saw Ewa Laurence do a draw shot demonstration during a televised match, and she stressed, "When drawing the ball, it is very important to keep the cue level, hit the ball at six o'clock, with a smooth complete follow through"

One bad thing about Jeannettes advice is that students tend to over do everything! IOW, too hard, too much side, too low, etc. I think if you have it in your mind that you want to hit with a level cue, you end up hitting at the right point on the cueball. JMVHO, from a students point of view.

I recently got a measel cue ball, with the dots all around, and that has been a great learning aid for me, as you can see the effect of top, bottom, and side english, and particularly the speed of each shot relative to the effect. If I had had that ball six years ago, learning to draw, and to use side english, would have been much easier.

As Scott said, keeping a loose grip with an easy smooth follow through is important particularly when just learning. After you have mastered the draw, and it is reliable, then more experimentation with other forms of butt height, for rail shots, for example, might be in order.

I really like the Robert Byrnes pool videos, BTW. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in Md.

ccrider
06-08-2005, 07:50 AM
You dont use a smooth follow thru on the draw, its a violent stab. You dont use a loose grip, you grab the stick at impact. You have almost no follow thru. Just because somebody gets on TV, does not mean they know squat.

Marcus
06-08-2005, 08:18 AM
I used to play with a guy who loved draw shots, and used red chalk. After a session, the felt would have lots of red lines from his draw shots.It made me realize you can hit as low as you want, if the stroke is straight.

Nostalgia
06-08-2005, 08:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ccrider:</font><hr> You dont use a smooth follow thru on the draw, its a violent stab. You dont use a loose grip, you grab the stick at impact. You have almost no follow thru.<hr /></blockquote>
Huh? Is this advice you're giving or are you making fun of someone?

-Joe

Deeman2
06-08-2005, 08:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Marcus:</font><hr> I used to play with a guy who loved draw shots, and used red chalk. After a session, the felt would have lots of red lines from his draw shots.It made me realize you can hit as low as you want, if the stroke is straight. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Markus,

You can hit the table AFTER the hitting the cue ball but if you hit the table BEFORE the cue ball, you will be watching an airborn cue ball. What the red chalk guy was doing was floowing through with cloth contact after the cue hit the cue ball.</font color>

Deeman

Deeman2
06-08-2005, 08:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ccrider:</font><hr> You dont use a smooth follow thru on the draw, its a violent stab. You dont use a loose grip, you grab the stick at impact. You have almost no follow thru. Just because somebody gets on TV, does not mean they know squat. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> Most people here love to play guys who think this is true. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color>

Deeman

ccrider
06-08-2005, 09:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nostalgia:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote ccrider:</font><hr> You dont use a smooth follow thru on the draw, its a violent stab. You dont use a loose grip, you grab the stick at impact. You have almost no follow thru.<hr /></blockquote>
Huh? Is this advice you're giving or are you making fun of someone?

-Joe <hr /></blockquote>

************************************************** **
On no Joe, say it aint so.
Joe, it is so, and a dozen world champions have written the same thing in their books. You boys get inside your own little clubbie world here and then shut off any outside knowledge that conflicts with the clubbie point of view and this dooms you to remain where you are.

Deeman2
06-08-2005, 10:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ccrider:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nostalgia:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote ccrider:</font><hr> You dont use a smooth follow thru on the draw, its a violent stab. You dont use a loose grip, you grab the stick at impact. You have almost no follow thru.<hr /></blockquote>
Huh? Is this advice you're giving or are you making fun of someone?

-Joe <hr /></blockquote>

************************************************** **
On no Joe, say it aint so.
Joe, it is so, and a dozen world champions have written the same this in their books. <font color="blue"> If you know of a dozen world champions who have written books, then tell us Clubbies who they were and what they said. i assure you, this would be the biggest news in billiard history. The only instructor I know who advocates a type of shot you mention is Tim Miller. I did not know Tim was a world champion. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif </font color> You boys get inside your own little clubbie world here and then shut off any outside knowledge that conflicts with the clubbie point of view and this dooms you to remain where you are. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> And where are we? Where are you, in this game? I seem to remember about 100 discussions on this subject (and I can't name 12 world champions who have written about the draw stroke as you have said) and always remember all of us keeping an open mind while some claimed 22 different "type" of draw shots, etc.

What you are describing certainly will draw a ball, no doubt. However, it is not a practical way to apply draw on a consistent basis. Anything that has you jab at a ball and not follow through is an aberation, not a normal way to play. Just my opinion. Please let us know where to find these champion's quotes.</font color>

Deeman
sometimes, not even Clubbie, but always itchin fer a fight... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Scott Lee
06-08-2005, 10:26 AM
Thanks for the kind words cheese! Did you ever get to show your Rambow to GF? Looking forward to seeing you again, when I'm back in Chgo later this summer!

Scott

Nostalgia
06-08-2005, 10:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ccrider:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nostalgia:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote ccrider:</font><hr> You dont use a smooth follow thru on the draw, its a violent stab. You dont use a loose grip, you grab the stick at impact. You have almost no follow thru.<hr /></blockquote>
Huh? Is this advice you're giving or are you making fun of someone?<hr /></blockquote>

************************************************** **
On no Joe, say it aint so.
Joe, it is so, and a dozen world champions have written the same this in their books. You boys get inside your own little clubbie world here and then shut off any outside knowledge that conflicts with the clubbie point of view and this dooms you to remain where you are.<hr /></blockquote>
First, don't presume you know me. I'm more open to new ways of doing things than you'd imagine. Just ask anyone who I've taken a lesson from.

Second, I asked the question because of the way you phrased your "advice." You wrote it as if you either think you know the only correct way to do it or you were making fun of someone.

Third, I'd like to know who gives this type of advice. I was going to put in my first post that it goes against everything I've read or been told, but I figured I'd let you explain yourself first. Which, I might add, you did not and chose to attack "us boys" for no reason I can understand.

-Joe

Scott Lee
06-08-2005, 10:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>
<font color="blue"> And always remember all of us keeping an open mind while some claimed 22 different "type" of draw shots, etc.
color]

Deeman
sometimes, not even Clubbie, but always itchin fer a fight... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Dee...Dagnabit! FL knows ONLY 17 kinds of draw! Don't give him any more "credit" than we have to! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif LMAO

Scott

ryushen21
06-08-2005, 10:42 AM
I'll back up Deeman here. I have had the chance to see a lot of my fellow college players go from an intermediate to a good a solid player. And one of the things that always seems to be a landmark for them is figuring out a good draw stroke.

The method that ccrider describes can produce a good amount of draw; however, it is ver difficult to have control over it. Sometime you can draw it across the table and bac and other times you only get a foot or so. Will that method draw? Yes, it will. Will it be consistent? No, it will not. I am still trying to teach that to one of my new "A" players right now.

The way that everyone else talks here is from experience. I studied with Scott Lee myself. I went from an elbow dropping , pokin' 'stead a strokin type player to developing a consistent preshot routine with better mechanics and more consistency. I think this is the kind of advice that Thunderduck is looking for.

But like Deeman said, lets see those books that all these world champions have written about about draw strokes. I've been to a lot of bookstores and used to work in one and i never saw more 8 or so books on pool, although i know there are a lot more.

ccrider
06-08-2005, 10:58 AM
Holy Toledo, drop your elbow, do that and you are really doomed. Just ask Scott, he will tell you so.

ccrider
06-08-2005, 11:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>
<font color="blue"> And always remember all of us keeping an open mind while some claimed 22 different "type" of draw shots, etc.
color]

Deeman
sometimes, not even Clubbie, but always itchin fer a fight... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Dee...Dagnabit! FL knows ONLY 17 kinds of draw! Don't give him any more "credit" than we have to! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif LMAO

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

*********************************************
I heard he was in Bozeman giving lessons and doing world class draws at MSU recently, you should have booked a lesson and learned how to draw 22 ways. You might have learned something new. He who can't or won't learn anything new, is no longer going forward, he is now in reverse. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ccrider
06-08-2005, 11:15 AM
Oh no Joe, say it aint so, I got to be low and level with a long follow through, because Ewa says so on TV, right, got that.
Joe said:Second, I asked the question because of the way you phrased your "advice." You wrote it as if you either think you know the only correct way to do it or you were making fun of someone.
Joe, its both, you already figured that one out didn't you. What's the name of the thread, the draw shot is driving me nuts. Now ask why, ask why no matter where you go, 95% of the players cant draw their rock worth a flyin flip. It comes and goes like a bad 1950 street car. When it does draw, they dont have a clue where whitey is going or where he stops. If the current teaching method was right and it worked, then 95% of the players would have a good draw. The players never realized the possiblity, the teachers are bad, dont have a clue and have sold them a bad system that does not work and has doomed them. You players are fine, its your teachers that suck. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Deeman2
06-08-2005, 11:27 AM
Oh! F/L, we didn't recognise you for a second there! It's O.K., of course you know what you are doing.....Take some medicine and those crazies will go away....

Deeman

ccrider
06-08-2005, 11:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> Oh! F/L, we didn't recognise you for a second there! It's O.K., of course you know what you are doing.....Take some medicine and those crazies will go away....

*************************************************
Then when Jake Shaefer wrote and taught this in 1875, he was crazy and on meds, When the world champions John Roberts wrote this in 1900 and his son who became champion in 1911 wrote how to draw 17 different ways using this method, they were crazy. What you mean, is any one who disagrees with you, or tries to teach you anything new, you write them off as crazy, this gives me an image of you sitting on a fence with 2 other pals, one has his hands over his eyes, another over his mouth, one has his hands over his ears, that one must be you. You can look at any photo or study any newsreel of all the hall of fame virtually, hoppe, greenleaf, mosconi, crane, rudolph and they were all performing this same method. By your way of thinking, they are all nuts as well?

In 1909, the main instruction book was written by Brunswick and called Modern Billiards. The complete text-book of the game. , this book ran from the 1880’s to about 1911, with each year the book getting small editing and new things came along. It was basically the same book and same teaching methods during this span of time. The draw was taught to hit the cue ball half way down from the equator, which is higher up that is taught today. They said and I quote” the quick and sudden delivery movement of the cue made with the aid of the wrist is what imparts the retrograde or draw tendency to the ball.”
End of quote.
You all are trying to draw with your stiff forearm and dead wrist, you should be drawing with your wrist and letting your forearm follow it. It’s the flick of the wrist into the ball where the action is.

Who wrote you should grab or squeeze the cue on the screw or stab at impact. Walter Lindrum of Australia which many experts say was the greatest cueist of all time. His brother Horace wrote the same thing in his 1974 book called Snooker, billiards and pool, published in Australia.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Who's FL?

Fred Agnir
06-08-2005, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ryushen21:</font><hr> I went from an elbow dropping , pokin' 'stead a strokin type player to developing a consistent preshot routine with better mechanics and more consistency. I think this is the kind of advice that Thunderduck is looking for. <hr /></blockquote>I'm not convince that's the type of advice Thunderduck was looking for. Did anyone bother reading Jeanette's "advice" and understand what she's saying?

I don't think it says what people think it says.

Fred

Fred Agnir
06-08-2005, 12:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ccrider:</font><hr> Who's FL?
<hr /></blockquote>If you're not Fast Larry, I'll take a lesson from you. If you are, unfortunately I think you're too much of a lunatic for me to be around you for more than 30 seconds. That's too bad. You've (Fast Larry) got a ton to offer.

Fred

Deeman2
06-08-2005, 01:48 PM
Larry,

You may have 17 ways to draw a ball but you have even more lives than any ten cats.

You say a dozen world champions have taught this as the way to draw but just saying they taught it don't make it so. As well, have you any champions in the last 30 years of so to quote? And what does the brother of an good Australian player writing something (not verified)in a book in 1974 have to do with a dozen world champions teaching/writing about a karate chop stroke have to do with all this? Horace??? Give us a break.

We all know a limp/loosey goosey wrist can impart some additional zip as well as make you more politically correct in San Francisco. However, no follow through? You actually teach that? I know it can be done, it just seems like more 13 rails stuff to me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif(I know, you have video) /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Deeman
he never quits, gotta give him that..

ccrider
06-08-2005, 01:59 PM
Ok fred, you want a lesson, I live in Las Vegas, next time you are in town, pm me. We can go down to the cue club or Jillians downtown if you do not want to be seen and want to do it on the sly. You are right Fred, pool is filled with lunatics and you do need to avoid these kind of people. I would not want to be around that fl nut my self.

ccrider
06-08-2005, 02:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> Larry,

You may have 17 ways to draw a ball but you have even more lives than any ten cats.
he never quits, gotta give him that..
************************************************
You have totally convinced me you have a closed mind and I can not possibly teach you anything. Social and written intercourse between us is now terminated. You go argue with somebody else, I don't have time for people like you. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ccrider
06-08-2005, 02:27 PM
ooops missed a question which was:
We all know a limp/loosey goosey wrist can impart some additional zip as well as make you more politically correct in San Francisco. However, no follow through? You actually teach that? I know it can be done, it just seems like more 13 rails stuff to me.

No ones ever hit 13 rails, the world record is 12 performed in 1995 on a 4 l/2 x 9' pool table. He got within 2' of 13 rails, it was amazing. Yes, I saw it done.

It is not zero follow thru, what was taught was a 3" follow thru, which is very short. You jack up and hit high up on the cue ball, maybe one tip below center and the cue tip inpacts into the cloth 3" beyond the back edge of the cue ball. That was the Schaefer method taught by Sr 1875 and Jake Schefer Jr. from the 30's to the 60's. Schaefer was the final finisher and teacher of Willie Hoppe. His son in the 30's began to run all over Hoppe at will. Those who trash his methods and concepts, are very ignorant people. On the longest and hardest most powerful shots its 3", on some its a 2" follow, soft, 1". The method is the exact opposite of the follow which has the shaft parallel to the table bed at all times and raises up on impact. Both shots are now taught wrong, draw, low, parallel, long follow thru, totally wrong. Follow, impact down thru the ball with the cue tip hitting the cloth, that is a drag shot, not a follow shot. These methods are simple wrong. I presented to you the winning methods of the greatest players of all time, so call them crazy and lunatics all you want. They are up there in heaven laughing their A**es off at you too. Remember, any one who has a different concept from yours, is a lunnie and can't be a clubbie. Deemon, if you are in the club, I dont want in. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fred Agnir
06-08-2005, 03:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ccrider:</font><hr> No ones ever hit 13 rails, the world record is 12 performed in 1995 on a 4 l/2 x 9' pool table. He got within 2' of 13 rails, it was amazing. Yes, I saw it done. <hr /></blockquote>

But also:

[ QUOTE ]
I would not want to be around that fl nut my self.

<hr /></blockquote>Whoa! wait a minute. I thought that it was FL that hit that 12 rail shot and came within a few rolls of getting 13.

Fred

ccrider
06-08-2005, 03:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote ccrider:</font><hr> No ones ever hit 13 rails, the world record is 12 performed in 1995 on a 4 l/2 x 9' pool table. He got within 2' of 13 rails, it was amazing. Yes, I saw it done. <hr /></blockquote>

But also:

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I would not want to be around that fl nut my self.

<hr /></blockquote>Whoa! wait a minute. I thought that it was FL that hit that 12 rail shot and came within a few rolls of getting 13.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

*********************************************
Correct, I said, I saw it done. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DebraLiStarr
06-08-2005, 04:12 PM
http://www.elvisconcerts.com/real/rider/28.jpg

I said C., C. C. Rider
Oh see, what you have done
(Yea yea yea)

I said C. (C. C. Rider) C. C. Rider (C. C. Rider)
Oh see, (C. C. Rider) what you have done
(Yea yea yea)

Oh girl, you made me love you
Now, now, now, you love me, your loving man has gone
(C. C. Rider) Girl what'd I say (C. C. Rider)

Well, I'm going away, baby
And I won't be back 'til fall
(Yea, yea, yea)
And I'm going away baby
And I won't be back 'til fall
(Yea, yea, yea)
If I find me a good girl
I won't, I won't, I won't be back at all
Girl what'd I say, I said C., (C. C. Rider)
C. C. Rider (C. C. Rider)
Oh see (C. C. Rider) what you have done
Yea, yea, yea
I said C. (C. C. Rider) C. C. Rider (C. C. Rider)
Oh see, (C. C. Rider) what you have done
(Yea yea yea)
Oh girl, you made me love you
Now, now, now, you love me, your loving man has gone

Play it JB, (C. C. Rider) (C. C. Rider)

(Yea yea yea)

(Yea yea yea)

Whoo, hear what I say
I said C. (C. C. Rider) C. C. Rider (C. C. Rider)
I-Oh see, (C. C. Rider) what you have done (Yea yea yea)
I said C. (C. C. Rider) C. C. Rider (C. C. Rider)
Oh see, (C. C. Rider) what you have done (Yea yea yea)
Oh girl, you made me love you
Now, now, now, you love me, your loving man has gone
Well what I say
Now I said C., (C. C. Rider) C. C. Rider (C. C. Rider)
I said C., (C. C. Rider) C. C. Rider (C. C. Rider)
I said C., (C. C. Rider) C. C. Rider (C. C. Rider)
I said C., (C. C. Rider) C. C. Rider (C. C. Rider)
I said C., (C. C. Rider) C. C. Rider (C. C. Rider)
I said C. (C. C. Rider)
http://www.oldshep.it/elvisology/elvis_has_left_the_building....jpg

LADIES &amp; GENTLEMAN... ELVIS HAS LEFT THE BUIDLING!!!!

ccrider
06-08-2005, 04:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DebraLiStarr:</font><hr>

I said C., C. C. Rider
Oh see, what you have done

**********************************************
There is no escaping you is there, you have a nose on you like a Georgia bloodhound. Here I am, mam, just takin care of business. TCOB...OH YEAH...You all know, every wizard, has a cape. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
(Yea yea yea)
Yes I have left the building, It's sort of closing in on me now.

ccrider
06-08-2005, 04:46 PM
Ya know Deb, I live in a magic Kingdom too. You work for an amimal who's your boss and supplies you your pay check, so do I. You see we have more in common than you realize. I just was booked to play in the Orlando Open by a new sponsor who just signed me, I'll be down there all week, playing and when I get knocked out, which usually does not take long to happen, I'll be working a booth and entertaining. I'll be staying at the tour hotel, on the property, then I will be at your mercy, won't I. ooooohhhhh
Ohoooooo Nooohhhhhhh, I am Doooooomed. Yabba dabba doo...

Bein smarter dan dee average bear boo boo won't save me now will it. As they say over at the cape, I am BBR’ed. Gor-Blimey, Pogue Mahone.

I bet the thought of that one has your head reeling. When I check in I'll have my flak jacket on.

Your wildest dream and fantasy just came true, getting your hands on me. I will be trapped like a rat, or like a mouse.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

ryushen21
06-08-2005, 04:55 PM
Hey Fred,

I can see where things may be misconstrued. All that i meant was that by developing a solid stroke all other aspects of shooting, including the draw shot, all become a subset of that one stroke. I think getting the basic stroke down and then moving on to practical application of that stroke can help solve the draw shot issue.

I am guilty of having not read Jeanette's advice from the book. I'll have to take a look at it to see what it says verbatim.

Of course i am always looking for help wherever i can get seeing as i know i have a lot further to go in my learning of the game.

ccrider
06-08-2005, 05:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ryushen21:</font><hr> Hey Fred,

I can see where things may be misconstrued. All that i meant was that by developing a solid stroke all other aspects of shooting, including the draw shot, all become a subset of that one stroke. I think getting the basic stroke down and then moving on to practical application of that stroke can help solve the draw shot issue.

I am guilty of having not read Jeanette's advice from the book. I'll have to take a look at it to see what it says verbatim.

Of course i am always looking for help wherever i can get seeing as i know i have a lot further to go in my learning of the game. <hr /></blockquote>

***********************************************
El big go wrongo. You won't find it from no black spider who has no stroke and could not break an egg. The draw is not some subset of a normal stroke. It is not a normal stroke. It is not a stroke, it is a violent stab period. You boys seriously, do not have a friggin clue what I am taking about, not a clue. You have all become in breeded by sleeping with the same clubbies. You all wake up one day and talk and think the same, then there is comfort in that. You need me bad to start mixing up your gene pool here, who wants to grab their ankles first and yell out, yo my daddy. I'll show you all some real strokin. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DebraLiStarr
06-08-2005, 05:11 PM
Larry,
In the spirit of our truce, I am practicing being nice to you. I thought you deserved a grand entrance and I booked The King for you!!!

Sadly, I will be on vacation during the Orlando Open, and I will not return until August 7. Won't be able to see you then. I'll be on the beach.

Scott Lee
06-08-2005, 05:12 PM
So Larry...Why didn't you call? You bugged the crap out of me to get my phone number...and then don't even call! What's that about? Hmmmm...you gave some lessons at MSU huh? To whom? They told me you were way too crazy for them too! They did get a laugh out of your "video" though!
Too bad you don't really want to "bury the hatchet", like you have said a few times in the past few years. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Take your meds...you need 'em.

Scott

ccrider
06-08-2005, 05:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> I keep jumping the ball accidentally on my draw shot... in Jeanette Lee's book she says you can solve this be elevating the cue and hitting down on the cue ball... wont this create more possibility of a miscue? What is the secret of hitting really low on the cue ball without jumping it?

*****************************************
I can set the OB up in a corner, have the cue ball one foot away, cue my tip on the center of the cue ball, chalk up heavily to prove I actually hit the exact center on the red circle, and then draw the cue ball table length 9' and hit the opposite rail, which proves low and level is rubbish. The length of my follow thru is 2", so there goes low and level out the door. Any one want to bet some serious cash I cant do this. I have won enough loot doing it to buy a block of down town Las Vegas. It did not matter, I just drank and gambled it all back, but at least, I keep the money circulating which is good for the economy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

tduck <hr /></blockquote>

ccrider
06-08-2005, 05:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DebraLiStarr:</font><hr> Larry,
In the spirit of our truce, I am practicing being nice to you. I thought your deserved a grand entrance and I booked The King for you!!!

Sadly, I will be on vacation during the Orlando Open, and I will not return until August 7. Won't be able to see you then. I'll be on the beach.

************************************************
Yo, now we are talkin, da king, deserves da king room.
You are going to the beach, wanna borrow my surf board. The edge is worn off where my 10 toes hang over.

DonD
06-08-2005, 05:24 PM
Hi
I am a newbie to the site, but not to playing pool.
I noticed a lot of good advice here concerning, cueing a draw shot, and would like to add my 2 cents.
Has anyone ever watched Aaron Aragon shoot a length of the table draw shot? I would say he can hit the ball as good as any two legged pros he can draw it at least 8ft from 8 ft away, and his stick is jacked up, really jacked up, Aaron is a world champion Wheel Chair player. he used to mention that I wasn't jacked up enough to get length of the table draw. and he wasn't miscuing, I was as level as I could get the stick to be, without slamming my finger into the Rail, (OUCH). Now for the problem of jumping/scooping the draw shot. Covered items were the shape of the tip, ensuring there is chalk all over the tip including the edge, hitting higher/lower, smooth stroke, hitting the cloth etc, no one mentioned (that I could find) the hardness or softness of the tip, if you don't scuff your tip, depending on how much you play,and type tip there will be a smooth surface, and even if there is chalk on that smooth surface there will be a tendency to miscue when hitting a draw shot that is hit hard, putting chalk on a smooth surface is like putting sand on a piece of glass. no surface adhesion between the leather and the phonelic material the cue ball is made of. just another area to look at in the trial and tribulations of learning this fantastic game.

DonD

ccrider
06-08-2005, 05:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> So Larry...Why didn't you call? You bugged the crap out of me to get my phone number...and then don't even call! What's that about? Hmmmm...you gave some lessons at MSU huh? To whom? They told me you were way too crazy for them too! They did get a laugh out of your "video" though!
Too bad you don't really want to "bury the hatchet", like you have said a few times in the past few years. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Take your meds...you need 'em.

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

***********************************************
I called Larry, read him this, his reply, Scott, take your Geritol and go to bed a 9 old timer. I take no meds. They mess up my scotch and Johnny walker blue.
Bury the hachet, that was what the trip was all about which was why I called and asked for your phone number to let you know when I was in Montana to play and start over. Out on the road I blew my transmission in the middle of the night. In the emergency dragging stuff out of the trunk, ended up sleeping in the car in the cold that night, there was a very high wind and several papers blew away, yes, the one with your number. For a period of a week, I sent you 3 emails asking for your phone number again. You never responded to that so I assumed you did not want to see me. I came in as promissed, did a trick shot show and finished the show hitting the worlds hardest 3 shots, 2 of which I made on the first snap, the agony and estancy masse made on the 4th snap. Those present were amazed saying they had never seen world class stuff like that, all they had seen was your limp dick 2in2's and 3in3's their granny can make drunk. There is always, two sides to every story. Unfortunately here, only one side, gets told. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

ccrider
06-08-2005, 05:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DonD:</font><hr> Hi
I am a newbie to the site, but not to playing pool.
I noticed a lot of good advice here concerning, cueing a draw shot, and would like to add my 2 cents.
Has anyone ever watched Aaron Aragon shoot a length of the table draw shot? I would say he can hit the ball as good as any two legged pros he can draw it at least 8ft from 8 ft away, and his stick is jacked up, really jacked up, Aaron is a world champion Wheel Chair player.

************************************************
<font color="red"> </font color> THAT IS A GREAT SHOT FOR HIS CONDITION. IN MY SHOWS, I PUT A DUCK IN THE CORNER AND SHOOT 9' AWAY, THEN DRAW 9' UP TABLE AND USUALLY ANOTHER 4.5 FEET BACK TO THE SIDE POCKETS. YES, I AM JACKED UP, IT CAN NOT BE DONE, ANY OTHER WAY.

********************************************
he used to mention that I wasn't jacked up enough to get length of the table draw. and he wasn't miscuing, I was as level as I could get the stick to be, without slamming my finger into the Rail, (OUCH). Now for the problem of jumping/scooping the draw shot. Covered items were the shape of the tip, ensuring there is chalk all over the tip including the edge, hitting higher/lower, smooth stroke, hitting the cloth etc, no one mentioned (that I could find) the hardness or softness of the tip, if you don't scuff your tip, depending on how much you play,and type tip there will be a smooth surface, and even if there is chalk on that smooth surface there will be a tendency to miscue when hitting a draw shot that is hit hard, putting chalk on a smooth surface is like putting sand on a piece of glass. no surface adhesion between the leather and the phonelic material the cue ball is made of. just another area to look at in the trial and tribulations of learning this fantastic game.

DonD <hr /></blockquote>

************************************************** *
Yes sir, this game is fantastic, you can learn something new every day, play it for 80 years if you stay healtny. You can never learn it all, the subject is endless.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

ccrider
06-08-2005, 06:19 PM
Tduck began the thread by asking:
Gor-Blimey, Pogue Mahone.
No, that is not what he said, take two:
I keep jumping the ball accidentally on my draw shot... in Jeanette Lee's book she says you can solve this be elevating the cue and hitting down on the cue ball... wont this create more possibility of a miscue? What is the secret of hitting really low on the cue ball without jumping it?

tduck
*********************************************
If you want to jump the cue ball off the table, here is how you do it. Draw low and level with a long follow thru. In fact, I can jump it off hitting 1 1/2 tips below center. Its the level stroke that does it. Jack up, hit down into the ball, that never happens again. Don't feel bad, most of pool has been sold into this bull crap, stepped in what, or what. I have seen hall of famers Buddy Hall and Nick Varner both had match ball straight in the side up close to move into the finals and air ball the cue ball into the stands to lose like dogs. Geeze, thats equal to being on 18 at Augusta with a simple chip to win and shanking into the trap. In pool, its a golf shank. It will gut a man for months after it happens. Just like a shank in golf does, same thing. The best in the world use this flawed method and have paid big time for it, so do not feel bad.

Bad method, bad teachers are responsible for this. Most of the ones who got this crap started were billiard players who could not run 3 friggen balls at pool and could not draw a ball thru a wet paper bag, stiff wristed engineers with their heads up their A**ses. That is the truth and a lot of people know this and don't have the guts to blow it out so they avoid the truth here.

How much eltivation you do requires a lesson with me to set your angle. I can tell you this, every one has a different angle where it works. Too low it does not, it is a much higher angle than you think. Too high it fails also and mis cues and jumps. FINDING THIS MAGIC SPOT TAKES SOME TIME.
Will the cue ball jump, yes, so what, It sets and settles right back down and is on the cloth at impact with the object ball on most shots. Really close up, around a foot, I dont use the method and level out or you will jump the cue ball on the ob, which will jump it into the pocket hitting high up and it can come back out of these new lower at the top pockets. It happens, and so fast it can not be seen by the eye. I put a row of quarters behind the ob and in front of the cb to prove it to people, make the shot and do not touch a coin. The method can not be used every time and never close up, you just learn by experience where the shot begins at.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Thunderduck
06-08-2005, 10:00 PM
I've started a war! Wow... DRAW WARS!

Basically, I started this thread to get opinions on Black Widow's draw method, because it seemed controversial to me... I would go test it myself but I'm having back problems and I cant play for 2 weeks... but eventually I need to stop jumping the ball on draw shots if I want to be good..

Anyhow, I expect the controversy over this will never end, that is what makes pool great...

tduck

ccrider
06-08-2005, 11:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> I've started a war! Wow... DRAW WARS!

Basically, I started this thread to get opinions on Black Widow's draw method, because it seemed controversial to me... I would go test it myself but I'm having back problems and I cant play for 2 weeks... but eventually I need to stop jumping the ball on draw shots if I want to be good..

Anyhow, I expect the controversy over this will never end, that is what makes pool great...

tduck

*********************************************
Right on duckie, you are a smart man, I have been trying to explain all this to these bozos for years and they are too fargin dumb to grasp it. They love to hang on the the flawed non working crap they now bought and got ripped off on. To admit they bought S**t and paid good money for it, means they are dumb and they will not admit this. I think this is the main problem, I am right, every one else is wrong, and that is too big of a leap for these small minds to take. They just fold up into the fetal position.
And you can't even test it to see if its true. What can I say other than I have a draw that puts you all to shame. It is not low and level with a long follow thru. I have mine, I really dont give a damn if you dont have one as well, thats your problem, not my problem, its the old saying, you can take a horse to water.......................... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

nhp
06-09-2005, 03:52 AM
Larry approximately how high are you supposed to jack up for your draw technique?

Deeman2
06-09-2005, 05:56 AM
Scott:

Do I have Radar for Fast Larry or what? I knew that 13 rail and 22 types of draw comment would draw him out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

LOL, maybe this incarnation is the kinder, gentler, F/L! Naw, it's the same old tired act.

Deeman
at least he won't respond to me anymore, there's good in everything....

Fred Agnir
06-09-2005, 06:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Larry approximately how high are you supposed to jack up for your draw technique? <hr /></blockquote>I think he answered that it's different for everyone. When I show this to people, it's just a little elevation. Enough for them to realize that they're not "as level as possible." In my opinion "as level as possible" is misleading. Judging from a post on this thread, it is confirmed.

If you want my pseudo technical explanation, elevating does two things:

1) lessens the chances of scraping the deck just prior to hitting the cueball with the cue tip. Hitting the deck will cause a miscue, which I think is the original poster's problem

2) elevating gets the shoulder in play, which I believe forces the elbow to stay up.

To Larry/CCRider, these reasons are just words to think about, but certainly not during the stroke. Maybe you can give me your reasons as to why elevation helps.

Thanks,

Fred

Nostalgia
06-09-2005, 06:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ccrider:</font><hr>means they are dumb and they will not admit this. I think this is the main problem, I am right, every one else is wrong, and that is too big of a leap for these small minds to take. They just fold up into the fetal position.<hr /></blockquote>
I think I've got it. Our omnipotent friend, One, has come back in yet another form!

I'm through responding to this kind of stupidity. If you can't have an adult conversation without insulting people for no reason, you can talk to yourself.

-Joe

Scott Lee
06-09-2005, 01:11 PM
Larry...You can make up any excuse you want. I check my email at least 3 times a day...and there was nothing from you. I am also listed in the phone book, so that was b.s too. As far as your 'trick shot show'...LOL...must have been impressive for the 3 guys who work there, during your 20 minute stay! You can fool yourself as long as you wish, but that's as far as it goes with me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott Lee

TomBrooklyn
06-09-2005, 01:52 PM
Post deleted by ccb_admin_2

Thunderduck
06-09-2005, 09:59 PM
I hope there is no censorship going on, that would be bad...

Anyhow, I dont want to get involved in the personal battles, but I do want to give an update. Despite my bad back I went out and practiced for an hour... I jumped the ball on my draw shout about 8 times in a row!!! I tried different methods but same result... maybe I just stink. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Fred Agnir
06-10-2005, 06:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> I hope there is no censorship going on, that would be bad...

Anyhow, I dont want to get involved in the personal battles, but I do want to give an update. Despite my bad back I went out and practiced for an hour... I jumped the ball on my draw shout about 8 times in a row!!! I tried different methods but same result... maybe I just stink. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>Maybe it's your back. Seriously.

In the end, this is still a phyical game. Don't discount it.

Fred

Billy_Bob
06-10-2005, 07:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> ...I went out and practiced for an hour... I jumped the ball on my draw shout about 8 times in a row!!! I tried different methods but same result... <hr /></blockquote>

Chalk before every shot, especially the sides of the tip. Examine tip under light to be sure there are no dark or shiny patches on sides of tip. Try hitting slowly. Then try hitting very slowly. Try hitting a little higher on cue ball. Be sure cue is level.

Practice this: Have someone watch you. Be sure you follow through and leave the cue tip 6 inches past where the cue ball was. LEAVE IT THERE 4 SECONDS! So shoot slowly, follow through 6 inches past where the cue ball was, then stop. Leave your tip there for 4 seconds. Have other person watching be sure you do this each time.

Did I say to chalk before each and every draw shot, especially around the sides of the tip?

Draw shot practice: Place object ball 1 diamond away from cue ball. Shoot slowly. Just as fast as you need to pocket the ball - no faster. Follow through. Chalk before each shot.

It took me two months of daily practice to get fairly good at draw shots.

P.S. Be sure to chalk before each shot, especially around the sides of the tip!

TomBrooklyn
06-10-2005, 04:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> I hope there is no censorship going on, that would be bad...<hr /></blockquote>Hi Duck,
Apparently there is. I was also just informed that even passing along messages from the Fast One is verboten, thus my earlier post was deleted by the admin.

It reminds me of how Thomas Paine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine), the author of COMMON SENSE and THE RIGHTS OF MAN was shunned and successfully discredited by his political enemies who wished to maintain their domination over the weak and oppressed by trying to keep the populace unenlightened by Paine's teachings.

Thunderduck
06-10-2005, 06:49 PM
Sorry about the censorship, and I'm sorry I got your friend in trouble... I believe everyone should be free to speak...

More draw shot practice today... I'm jumping the ball a bit less, slowing down my stroke did help... When I hit it well it draws nicely, I do see a bit of improvement...

So let me get this correct, when the ball jumps, is that because I hit the ball too low? Are there other reasons that it might jump? Or is it basically just a case of hitting below 6 oclock accidentally?

by the way...YES I LOVE CHALK!!!!

Um, anyhow, I think these miscues will go away if I know what causes them... I havent miscued on a follow shot in months, because I figured out what causes a miscue on that particular shot...

QUACK...

Nostalgia
06-10-2005, 07:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr>So let me get this correct, when the ball jumps, is that because I hit the ball too low? Are there other reasons that it might jump? Or is it basically just a case of hitting below 6 oclock accidentally?<hr /></blockquote>
The only time I miscue when performing a draw shot is when I tense up at the end instead of executing a smooth follow-through. The tense up at the end causes me to grip the stick tightly. This makes my hand pull up into my chest, raising the butt of the cue at the moment of impact. Of course, this means the tip of the cue will lower (since you don't move your bridge hand).

Sometimes this results in a good draw. Sometimes the tip contacts the table and throws the ball into the air.

When I concentrate on a solid, straight stroke with a clean follow through, I get great draw every time - in practice today I drew a full table length with the OB a half table away from the CB. And I can aim very, very low on the cue and not jump it. I'm fairly confident that the problem is mostly in the way you're stroking the cue. May I recommend getting a lesson or two from a real instructor? It has helped me tremendously.

Incidentally, changing from the death grip finish to a straight stroke required me to elevate the butt of my cue slightly. This could be what Jeanette was talking about.

Good luck!

-Joe