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Drop1
06-08-2005, 10:34 AM
I haven't heard one reason why women should not compete against men. I hear a lot of one time examples where a man won against a woman,but one day doesn't make a week. It's true men have more strenth,but I cannot buy the they have more nerves. Wow men players are so cool,they make ice water shiver. The woman that said some of the arguments sound sexist,needs to understand it's a sexist world, so deal with it. Women are the sex object of choice for most men,in most of the world. But lets talk pool, and men versus women is good business.

SpiderMan
06-08-2005, 10:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> I haven't heard one reason why women should not compete against men. <hr /></blockquote>
That's because you've only been here a few weeks /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously, read through the archives and you'll find volumes of discussion on this topic.

SpiderMan

Drop1
06-08-2005, 11:03 AM
SpiderMan,I have watched your posts,and I respect your advice. But it still seems like those medical studies,where they test six people,and come out with a statement,that is taken as Gospel,because it's Doctors talking. When they can run a study of say 100 games top female pros against top male pros,then I'm a believer.

dvsmnstr
06-08-2005, 11:05 AM
I'm with you I think they should play eachother, it would be alot more interesting.. also maybe make them play a little better to not want to lose to the opposite sex..

Drop1
06-08-2005, 11:28 AM
There has to be a lot of intrest in pool,if one company in one city is making thirty thousand tables a year. A whole lot more could be done, to get a lot more money to the top pros,and this might be away to bring in some big money. We build fishing boats in Guadalajara,and follow the industry,as it pertains to the States,where most of the boats go.It's intresting to me that the dealers say fifty percent of the boats sold, is decided by the wife. Bring in the women,because they bring in the bucks.

Deeman2
06-08-2005, 11:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> I haven't heard one reason why women should not compete against men. <font color="purple"> They make as good a living on their tour as the men do in general. </font color> I hear a lot of one time examples where a man won against a woman,but one day doesn't make a week. It's true men have more strenth,but I cannot buy the they have more nerves. <font color="purple"> You say this, and turn around a pull a Gayle on the next sentence. </font color> Wow men players are so cool,they make ice water shiver. The woman that said some of the arguments sound sexist,needs to understand it's a sexist world, so deal with it. Women are the sex object of choice for most men,in most of the world. But lets talk pool, and men versus women is good business. <font color="purple"> How do you figure that? Just because you think it is? </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Drop1'

Why, even if more people than you were interested in seeing a lot of this (I assume to boost your tiny ego), would the women, who have avery successful tour, want to drop that to come over and play on a less consistent Men's Tour?

Yes. it may be a sexist world, but you only contribute more to the problem. I know plenty of women who are as cool under pressure playing pool as any men.

We will have the occasional challenge match between a man and woman. That should be enough.

Deeman

DickLeonard
06-08-2005, 11:59 AM
In her day Jean Balukas held her own playing straight pool with the men but the men didn't want her to play because she was making them look bad. ####

Deeman2
06-08-2005, 12:02 PM
Dick,

Yes, I heard she felt almost stalked by players when she won. Some of them so insulted to lose to her that they verbally abused her.

Deeman

Cueless Joey
06-08-2005, 12:43 PM
Allison got beat by Coltrain getting the a big spot.
Choo Choo wasn't in the top 20 when he robbed her.
I'd back John Schmidt now against Allison anytime.
She can have the 7 and the breaks. John's not a top 20 either.
I'm not by any means being sexist but somehow the male pros just play much better. They kick and play safe better. They break better.
Btw, Jean Balukas' claim she beat Mosconi in an exhibition is very very doubtful at best. The referee of that match told she did not win. She did beat Keith and Buddy Hall in our tournament. Jeanette Lee beat Jimmy Fusco in a straight-pool match.
But, to think Allison and karen can compete with the top pros is a stretch imo.
Allison was offered by Efren's backer a huge spot and she turned it down.

Fred Agnir
06-08-2005, 12:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> I haven't heard one reason why women should not compete against men. <hr /></blockquote>Sure you have. Whether you believe they have merit is yours to deal with. If you feel that none of the arguments that have put forth over, say, the last 10 years have any merit in your eyes, then no further discussion is necessary.

BTW, women compete vs. men more than apparently you realize. Maybe it's a moot question since it's already happening.

Fred &lt;~~~ never wants to touch this subject again

SpiderMan
06-08-2005, 12:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> SpiderMan,I have watched your posts,and I respect your advice. But it still seems like those medical studies,where they test six people,and come out with a statement,that is taken as Gospel,because it's Doctors talking. When they can run a study of say 100 games top female pros against top male pros,then I'm a believer. <hr /></blockquote>

Your idea of a 100-game round-robin playoff would certainly be definitive, and I would enjoy watching it, though I personally feel that the results would be lopsided in favor of the men. When I watch the top 10 men play, and watch the top 10 women play, the difference in ability seems so great that I wouldn't bet anything on the women.

Currently, the top women have little financial incentive to try to compete with the top men, even though the men's events generally do not bar women. On the other hand, I know of no pro women's events that would allow men. If they did, there would be few women in the winner's circle.

But it's the "why" of this disparity in abilities that really gets discussions going, and sometimes tempers flaring!

Has natural selection predisposed men to have advantages in perception, coordination, or thought processes for "battlefield survival", that may give them advantages in certain games? And is there greater statistical likelihood of finding "androgenous" characteristics among the top women poolplayers than among the general population?

I'll be flamed for the last paragraph.

SpiderMan

rossaroni
06-08-2005, 04:06 PM
I do agree that the women do play very good. However, they cannot keep up with the men. The break is the biggest thing and they just do not break as good as the men. I would also like to see some male-female matchups, just so you guys could shut up about women playing as good as the top men.

sneakypapi
06-08-2005, 05:29 PM
Quote:
The break is the biggest thing and they just do not break as good as the men.
__________________________________________________ _________

I have a comment regarding the break, first you have to remember a big break might not always be the best break. Let me explain remember all you need is a ball on the break to fall to stay at the table and the top women have no problem making at least a ball. Another thing when you watch 7 ball Cory Duell uses a soft break and always pockets a ball or even more on the break. The point is pocketing a ball on the break and a good player then has the chance to run out. Allison Fisher, Karen and possibly a select few other female pros can keep up with many men, but Allison is probably the best to do so because of her ability to control her emotions.

PastPrime
06-08-2005, 07:40 PM
Here's a little note I looked up that I posted in 2002. I know Ms. Corr is a better player now but how does she think she matches up with men.
When Karen Corr came through Fresno she would only play one guy who is 71 years old. She beat him two sets to one for $200 a set. He told her before they started that he had to leave at 8:00 to attend his wife but he would be back at 9:30 and play her until they closed at 2:00. After they played three sets she said that was it with him. She refused to play two other men unless she got the last two balls from one player or two games to seven from another. She was traveling with another lady and handled her own money.
This lady plays extremely well but I don't think she can handle the top men BUT I would certainly back her against 95% or more of the other men in the world.

cueball1950
06-08-2005, 09:30 PM
Karen plays men all the time on the Joss Norhteast tour and she beats them. one name that comes to mind is King james himself. Mr Rempe. She beat him twice in 1 day to win the tournament. But she plays and cashes all the time.....mike

Drop1
06-08-2005, 09:40 PM
True you will be flamed for the last paragraph.There is a lot of support based on genetic evolution,for what you said regarding inherited differences between men and women. The anthropoligist Ashely Montague wrote a book called the Natural Supeority of Women,and Matt Ridley wrote The Red Queen,outlining the differences of men and women based on chromosomes and genes. People really get up tight,and personal. But I would post the same question in the same way again. I'm too old to fight,and too fat to run,but I can shoot straight. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Stick
06-08-2005, 09:55 PM
I certainly believe that women have the ability to be as good as men in pool, but currently I think they fall a little short. Many of the top women have a different type of game then the top men. Very methodical, deliberate, some might even say careful. Compare that to agressive, quick stylings of someone like Rhodney Morris or Machine Gun Lou. These guys are running tables in under a minute. That is a very different game than that of Fisher, Corr, and Barretta.

The top women also have a much narrower field. I know some fine women players who are B's and B+'s getting into the pro women's events. If you are a men's A or A+ you are a big nobody.

All this said, there are thousand upon thousands of women that can kick my butt in pool, and I know that will always be the case.

-Stick

nhp
06-09-2005, 03:44 AM
Does anyone know if there is an accustats average for the women? For the men IIRC its around .800. I am guessing for the women the average is somewhere around .650? I've never heard of a female player shooting a .1000 in anything longer than a race to 7.

JimS
06-09-2005, 04:27 AM
I know of no reason why women shouldn't play as well as men but they don't. Allison and Karen are the best female players in the world and they are not nearly as good as top men players. I have no idea why.... It just is..... so go figure.

cuechick
06-09-2005, 05:43 AM
Alright I will be the first woman to comment on this thread...As others have pointed out this is hardly a new topic. That said, I will say this, YES there are a lot more pro men out there playing at a much higher level than the majority of pro women. For the simple reason that there are a LOT MORE MEN who play pool! For every one serious female player there are at least 100 may be even 1000 serious male players.

I think the biggest difference is cultural, and I have seen this even more since moving South. When I lived in NY there were a lot of strong and serious female players. I realized since my move this is the exception not the rule. In other parts of the country women get married at a younger age and have children. Pool is a sport that requires a selfish, narcissistic lifestyle with no promise of return. I know many women with promising ability who were curtailed by the responsibilities of family. I also know many men, who were able to go right on playing with these same responsibilities ...even if pool was not their main source of income. It is the way our culture is set up.
That all being said, if you look at the top women, few have these issues to deal with, and if they do, are now at a level to deal with it. IE: Jeanette Lee has a full time Nanny that travels with her.

As far as competing with the men, I do it all the time. I don't have that much choice, there are very few women down here to play. I play in a BCA league, mostly advanced players, and I am the only female in this entire league. I have also seen Helena and Monica play in many open events down here, with some very strong players. They have NEVER failed to make the top 8 and I think Monica actually plays much better against men than women. I have been very impressed with their constancy in these events.

I have used this analogy before, if you were looking for the perfect diamond and you could search a bag of 20 or a bag of 2000, which bag would yield more canidates? I think the level of female players is ever increasing and Allison and Karen have raised the bar continuously. The exposure on TV has brought more women to the game and that has fueled the fires...And ultimatly it is the Women that have the successful tour and have maintained it for over 20 years! In a sport where just 25 years ago, many poolrooms banned women from even entering, that is astounding.

catscradle
06-09-2005, 05:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> ... When I watch the top 10 men play, and watch the top 10 women play, the difference in ability seems so great that I wouldn't bet anything on the women.
...
SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

The more posts of yours I read the more I'm convinced we might be kindren spirits, albeit you a younger one and maybe therefore more flexible in your opinions. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But to the point at hand. I further believe that the drop off from the #1 man (however that is defined) to the #10 man is very minor, whereas the drop off from the #1 woman (Alison) to the #10 woman is much more pronounced. Therefore, IMO, the disparity between the top 10 men playing the top 10 women would be even bigger than the disparity between the #1 man and the #1 woman.

I further agree with you that there really is no valid argument that the best women are as good as the best men or for that matter that the average woman is as good as the average man. The only meaningful question is "Why?". IMO it is a combination of nurture and nature. Specifically, I think men tend to have better depth perception than women. During there early days (in evolutionary terms) mankind existed in hunter/gatherer societies, women were the gatherers and men were the hunters. This had many effects on the evolution of men and women and one of them (IMO) was that men developed better depth perception and general physical coordination. My premise is that these factors give men a leg up in many physical activities and I believe pool is one of them.

I think the anthropology department of some major university should kidnap 100 random boy babies and 100 random girl babies, and raise them all in the same environment with billiard/pool instruction everyday, after 20 years we'll have an answer to the nurture/nature question. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

hondo
06-09-2005, 06:06 AM
Some time back, I saw Jeannette Lee beat
the best female player in the world, Alison,
7 - 0. Soon after I went to DCC and saw Lee
in side action. She's very, very good but
she wouldn't have a chance against the top
men, including her husband.

catscradle
06-09-2005, 06:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cuechick:</font><hr> ... For the simple reason that there are a LOT MORE MEN who play pool! For every one serious female player there are at least 100 may be even 1000 serious male players.
... <hr /></blockquote>

Of course, that leads naturally to the next "why". Why don't more women play? A good case could be made that when they try it they find they aren't good enough at it too enjoy it and therefore discontinue playing. My bet is when you first played pool you were NOT embarrassingly poor at it, most men aren't either.
I don't know, I'm just playing the devils advocate here.

Fred Agnir
06-09-2005, 06:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Has natural selection predisposed men to have advantages in perception, coordination, or thought processes for "battlefield survival", that may give them advantages in certain games? And is there greater statistical likelihood of finding "androgenous" characteristics among the top women poolplayers than among the general population?

I'll be flamed for the last paragraph.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>I've thought this, but I'm not so convinced. That is, I think there is a happenstance, not a coincidence, that there are plenty of top women players that would be suspect for a higher testosterone level. But, it's not a requisite.

So, to Cuechick's (and others previous) point, the years of female involvement is far behind the men. The overall numbers are far behind as well. Why then if men outnumber the women 10:1 in our sport, why isn't there one woman that truly challenges the top 10? Here's my opinion: the number of women have to start shooting like women. The longer they continue on trying to emulate what has been a male dominated physical sport, they will be limited by the very fact that they aren't men.

Women's bodies are different. If I were a woman, I'd be watching Allison, not Efren. Gerda, not Earl. Karen, not Corey. And I'd be watching their breasts and hips, two things that are clearly different than men. The "higher testosterone women" may get away with emulating men. But all the women with the hand-eye coordination and the mental discipline for pool may never learn to play this game if they don't have someone to emulate.


Fred

Popcorn
06-09-2005, 06:35 AM
Quote
"In a sport where just 25 years ago, many poolrooms banned women from even entering, that is astounding. "

Where in the world did you come up with that?

cuechick
06-09-2005, 06:45 AM
I think I answered that question in my post if you read the whole thing?

IMO:Women tend to take a lot more of the responsibility of raising a family then men. A friend of mine for example just had a baby, she has played once since the baby was born, several months ago, only because her Mother was in town and able to take care of the baby. Her husband however plays all the time...
Women also start later than men, another reason they progress differently. My pool coach is 8 years younger than me but has been playing pool 11 years longer than I have. That is fairly typical...as far as not being good at it...I know many players that were naturals and others, even pros that had to work very hard to become good. I think that has little to do with gender. You either have a relentless personality or you do not, you either fall in love with the game or you don't. I do not see where gender makes a difference there.

Fran Crimi
06-09-2005, 06:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cuechick:</font><hr> ... For the simple reason that there are a LOT MORE MEN who play pool! For every one serious female player there are at least 100 may be even 1000 serious male players.
... <hr /></blockquote>

Of course, that leads naturally to the next "why". Why don't more women play? A good case could be made that when they try it they find they aren't good enough at it too enjoy it and therefore discontinue playing. My bet is when you first played pool you were NOT embarrassingly poor at it, most men aren't either.
I don't know, I'm just playing the devils advocate here.
<hr /></blockquote>

Well, I can tell you "why" from a woman's perspective. Women basically view the pool playing environment as a pretty nasty environment. Those of us who have managed to stick it out because of our love for the game, have had to endure some pretty ugly crap around us in pool rooms. Most men don't seem to be bothered as much by it. In fact, many of them enjoy it. We don't.

All the woofing, the crying and complaining, the temper tantrums, the fighting...a woman generally takes one look at that and says, "I'm outta here."

I can't tell you how many nights I went home from my local pool room disgusted because two guys were in each other's faces all night. I got nothing out of the evening as opposed to all the other guys hanging around who loved every minute of it.

How the heck are you supposed to get better under those conditions unless you get off on it?

Look at poor Sarah, having her cues stolen. What do you think the chances are that a woman stole the cues?

Fran

cuechick
06-09-2005, 06:52 AM
I did a lot of research for a documentary project I was working on, and this is true. It is talked about in the book "Playing Off the Rail" and I interviewed many players including Eva and Jean who talked about it. Many poolrooms owners back in the day felt the only women that would enter a pool room were probably prostitutes and banned women all together. Karen Corr has talked about have to drive to a neighboring town because the local snooker room also did not allow women.
If this is hard for you to believe, then get this, not that long ago, black people were not allowed to use the same bathrooms as white people! I swear it is true!

9 Ball Girl
06-09-2005, 07:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Women basically view the pool playing environment as a pretty nasty environment.<hr /></blockquote>
This is true of a lot of women that I know of that are not into pool. They (the women that I know) have this stereotype about pool and it's patrons and when I or my friends would talk about whatever story happened last night, unfortunately it fit their stereoptype. There was one stupid [censored] that saw a picture of me and said and I quote, "because she's a pool player and has tattoos, she's definitely into drugs--hanging out 'til the wee morning in a poolroom--that's an addiction and she has the face of a drug addict. Pool is a dirty habit" WTF???

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>All the woofing, the crying and complaining, the temper tantrums, the fighting...a woman generally takes one look at that and says, "I'm outta here."<hr /></blockquote>
It's funny that you should say that because when I went to Valley Forge this year, I bumped into a lot of the guys from the poolhall that I used to go to regularly and in seeing them made me think of the tantrums, the crying, the complaining, the cheating--and all of that sealed any reason for me to not want to go back there again.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>I can't tell you how many nights I went home from my local pool room disgusted because two guys were in each other's faces all night.<hr /></blockquote>
And that's why I don't care to help run tourneys anymore.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Sarah's stolen cues.<hr /></blockquote>
I don't like people that steal. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

cheesemouse
06-09-2005, 07:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cuechick:</font><hr> Alright I will be the first woman to comment on this thread...As others have pointed out this is hardly a new topic. That said, I will say this, YES there are a lot more pro men out there playing at a much higher level than the majority of pro women. For the simple reason that there are a LOT MORE MEN who play pool! For every one serious female player there are at least 100 may be even 1000 serious male players.

I think the biggest difference is cultural, and I have seen this even more since moving South. When I lived in NY there were a lot of strong and serious female players. I realized since my move this is the exception not the rule. In other parts of the country women get married at a younger age and have children. Pool is a sport that requires a selfish, narcissistic lifestyle with no promise of return. I know many women with promising ability who were curtailed by the responsibilities of family. I also know many men, who were able to go right on playing with these same responsibilities ...even if pool was not their main source of income. It is the way our culture is set up.
That all being said, if you look at the top women, few have these issues to deal with, and if they do, are now at a level to deal with it. IE: Jeanette Lee has a full time Nanny that travels with her.

As far as competing with the men, I do it all the time. I don't have that much choice, there are very few women down here to play. I play in a BCA league, mostly advanced players, and I am the only female in this entire league. I have also seen Helena and Monica play in many open events down here, with some very strong players. They have NEVER failed to make the top 8 and I think Monica actually plays much better against men than women. I have been very impressed with their constancy in these events.

I have used this analogy before, if you were looking for the perfect diamond and you could search a bag of 20 or a bag of 2000, which bag would yield more canidates? I think the level of female players is ever increasing and Allison and Karen have raised the bar continuously. The exposure on TV has brought more women to the game and that has fueled the fires...And ultimatly it is the Women that have the successful tour and have maintained it for over 20 years! In a sport where just 25 years ago, many poolrooms banned women from even entering, that is astounding.


<hr /></blockquote>

Cuechick,

BINGO!!! I agree with your evaluation. It is the law of large numbers...evenually a women is going to get there and then all the men will say she is a freak. If there is a sport where the genders are on an equal footing it is pool and a lady is going to prove it...I think the best thing that could happen to pool is a lady beating the best of the best...just image the fall out of that? I maybe dead in my grave but it will happen guys...

Popcorn
06-09-2005, 07:20 AM
quote
"Well, I can tell you "why" from a woman's perspective. Women basically view the pool playing environment as a pretty nasty environment."

So do a lot of men. My wife was somewhat of a player and beat players when she was playing such as Lori Johh, Gerri Titcome, Bonnie Hoffman and others. Danny D. told her she could easily play as good as any of the top women players if she had the desire. She has long since quit and except for playing at home or with friends occasionaly, never plays anymore. She liked the game but nothing else that went along with it. I think this may be said for a lot of men, the whole pool seen can easily not be most peoples cup of tea. I rarely venture into the pool room anymore beyond sticking my head in to see what is going on. Once you take a step back and see it from a better perspective, hanging around a pool room loses it's allure. I am not knocking the game just the environment it is played in. Its not one many women would enjoy.

Popcorn
06-09-2005, 07:27 AM
quote
"This is true of a lot of women that I know of that are not into pool. They (the women that I know) have this stereotype about pool and it's patrons and when I or my friends would talk about whatever story happened last night, unfortunately it fit their stereoptype."

There are stereotypes in pool but unfortunately they have a bases in fact.

cuechick
06-09-2005, 07:29 AM
I agree cheese and I think that it will be sooner than later...I think both Jasmine and Kelly Fisher are that capable.

catscradle
06-09-2005, 07:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cuechick:</font><hr> ... For the simple reason that there are a LOT MORE MEN who play pool! For every one serious female player there are at least 100 may be even 1000 serious male players.
... <hr /></blockquote>

Of course, that leads naturally to the next "why". Why don't more women play? A good case could be made that when they try it they find they aren't good enough at it too enjoy it and therefore discontinue playing. My bet is when you first played pool you were NOT embarrassingly poor at it, most men aren't either.
I don't know, I'm just playing the devils advocate here.
<hr /></blockquote>

Well, I can tell you "why" from a woman's perspective. Women basically view the pool playing environment as a pretty nasty environment. Those of us who have managed to stick it out because of our love for the game, have had to endure some pretty ugly crap around us in pool rooms. Most men don't seem to be bothered as much by it. In fact, many of them enjoy it. We don't.

All the woofing, the crying and complaining, the temper tantrums, the fighting...a woman generally takes one look at that and says, "I'm outta here."

I can't tell you how many nights I went home from my local pool room disgusted because two guys were in each other's faces all night. I got nothing out of the evening as opposed to all the other guys hanging around who loved every minute of it.

How the heck are you supposed to get better under those conditions unless you get off on it?

Look at poor Sarah, having her cues stolen. What do you think the chances are that a woman stole the cues?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

That was a good post and some very good reasons why. Except for the last about Sarah's cue. As unfortunate as that is I don't think men are any more accepting of having there cues stolen than women are.
However, I hate the woofing, posturing, etc. I think it is indicative of the immaturity of a lot of players, but it doesn't keep me away. Why does it keep a woman away who loves the game?

Popcorn
06-09-2005, 07:47 AM
Are you out of your mind? I owned pool rooms in the 1970's and 80's and was doing the most of my playing then and I played in most states and a thousand pool rooms and never saw one that banned women. In fact this was the time when pool rooms had added to their names "(pick a name) Family Billiards". You are way way off calling this a fact, it is not even close to the truth. You may have to go back to the early 1900' for what you are saying to be even remotely true not the 1980's

Steve Lipsky
06-09-2005, 07:51 AM
I'd like to offer an alternative viewpoint. It is: Who cares?

Unless you are a top 100 male player, and take this argument to be an affront to your ego, what does any of this matter? I don't think there's anyone on this board that can claim to be in this group, and all men here need weight from Allison and Karen.

We should be looking at all our matches as if we have to play our best - because if we don't, we might lose. The gender of our opponent should not matter at all. Presumably, if he or she is playing in the same tournament as you, he or she belongs there. Pre-judging an opponent at all is usually not a great idea; doing it based on genitalia brings it down about another six levels on the good-idea scale.

There are two facts that we should all keep in mind:

1) The top 10 women would get slaughtered by the top 10 men in a long match. Judging by the fact that the women's games have been improving steadily, the level of slaughtering will necessarily decrease over time.

2) Everyone on this board can lose to a woman.

My last, completely random, comment will be directed to those few people who think the top women already play at the top men's level: You should really quit pool, and perhaps check yourself into a local mental-health facility. Your perception of reality is bordering on lunacy.

- Steve

catscradle
06-09-2005, 07:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cuechick:</font><hr> I think I answered that question in my post if you read the whole thing?

IMO:Women tend to take a lot more of the responsibility of raising a family then men. A friend of mine for example just had a baby, she has played once since the baby was born, several months ago, only because her Mother was in town and able to take care of the baby. Her husband however plays all the time...
Women also start later than men, another reason they progress differently. My pool coach is 8 years younger than me but has been playing pool 11 years longer than I have. That is fairly typical...as far as not being good at it...I know many players that were naturals and others, even pros that had to work very hard to become good. I think that has little to do with gender. You either have a relentless personality or you do not, you either fall in love with the game or you don't. I do not see where gender makes a difference there.
<hr /></blockquote>

I think that is a rather simplistic answer. Most of my life I've been lucky to play once a year because of obligations and chooses associated with raising 4 sons, but yet I've always had an enduring love of the game. In the last 5 years I've gotten serious about the game as my kids are grown so I've more time on my hands (youngest 22) and I'm not paying for private HS or college anymore so I've a couple of bucks to spend. I'm 59 now, been playing seriously 5 years, and I am not a natural athlete (never made a HS team in a SMALL town growing up), yet I'm an APA 6 in that amount of time. I'm not a natural, but I was natural enough to maintain an interest over the very long time I couldn't devote myself to it. My contention is that quite possibly that amongst people who aren't "naturals" men are more "natural" than women. I believe women have natural physical abilities that exceed men (such as manual dexterity) why can't they as well have some that fall short of men's corresponding ability.
I think no one has yet (or maybe ever can) presented convincing evidence that it is either nature or nurture. All these arguments really are based upon conjecture, both yours and mine. However, my gut says there is a nature factor to be considered.

Barbara
06-09-2005, 07:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> I'd like to offer an alternative viewpoint. It is: Who cares? <hr /></blockquote>

Thank you!

Barbara

Fran Crimi
06-09-2005, 08:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr>
That was a good post and some very good reasons why. Except for the last about Sarah's cue. As unfortunate as that is I don't think men are any more accepting of having there cues stolen than women are.

<font color="blue"> Of course men don't like having their cues stolen, but they seem to like stealing them more than women do. </font color>

However, I hate the woofing, posturing, etc. I think it is indicative of the immaturity of a lot of players, but it doesn't keep me away. Why does it keep a woman away who loves the game?

<font color="blue"> Well, maybe men are just more willing to tolerate bad behavior than women are. Many women don't even get the chance to fall in love with the game. They walk into a pool rooom with their friends or boyfriend one day, take one look around them and say, "Nope, not for me." And those who decide to stay around a bit, usually drop off pretty quickly once they get the feel of the environment.

Fran
</font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

cheesemouse
06-09-2005, 08:55 AM
Steve,

[ QUOTE ]
and perhaps check yourself into a local mental-health facility.<hr /></blockquote>

There is a distinct possiblility that a fair percentage who post on these pool forums don't need to CHECK THEMSELVES IN....LOL

What would happen if Korr and the top ten men in the world were left in an avent and she was the ONE that had found the best break...hmmmmmm...I wonder..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

cuechick
06-09-2005, 09:04 AM
This info I got from players both male and female who played in the 60's and early 70's...I am sure by the 80's most places had changed there policy, though Karen's experience was probably in the 80's may be early 90's so in some countries this still happens. Eva told me a story of an incident that happened to her directly (I actually have this on film), I am sure she was telling the truth. And there was info about in the book Playing Off the Rail, which was where I got the title for my film.
Believe what you want (you obviously will anyway) and yeah I may be out of my mind, I kind of like it that way; but I did do my research.

cuechick
06-09-2005, 09:15 AM
Simplistic but accurate, though of course just a theroy...but then you actually proved my point with your own response. while you were working and busy with your kids, you did not play that much. Once they were on their own and you had more free time your game improved...
As far as nature vs nuture..What? If it is women's nature to nurture... a stereotype, not all women fall under? I just don't get your point at all. Are you trying to say men are naturally better, you are an APA 6, I am a 7. I never touched a pool cue in my life till 9 years ago.
Again, what is your point?

SpiderMan
06-09-2005, 09:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> I'd like to offer an alternative viewpoint. It is: Who cares?<hr /></blockquote>
By the traffic these discussions generate, relative to the average "pool related" topic, you must mean an alternative and minority viewpoint. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

Steve Lipsky
06-09-2005, 09:43 AM
A valid, valid observation, sir /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

- Steve

Popcorn
06-09-2005, 09:49 AM
I think there may be an opening in the "Flat Earth society" for you to look into. In the 1960's 90% if not or more pool rooms were located in bowling alleys. Every Brunswick house had a nice room with 20 or more tables all family oriented, well maintained, marketed to the family. There were unlimited places for women to play. I may go as far as to say the pool environment may have been better back then, then it is now. If you had "actually" done research you would have found this to be the case. You don't know what you are talking about.

catscradle
06-09-2005, 10:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cuechick:</font><hr> Simplistic but accurate, though of course just a theroy...but then you actually proved my point with your own response. while you were working and busy with your kids, you did not play that much. Once they were on their own and you had more free time your game improved...
<hr /></blockquote>

... but the point is I harbored that desire until I had the oppourtunity to express it. Why can't a woman do that same thing.

[ QUOTE ]

As far as nature vs nuture..What? If it is women's nature to nurture... a stereotype, not all women fall under? I just don't get your point at all. <hr /></blockquote>

Well I misspelled nurture, but that's beside the point. I'm not talking about nurturing as in taking care of a person; I'm talking about nature (genetics) versus nurture (environment) in what forms a person to be what they are. Maybe I assume too much when I assume people know what I mean when I use the expression "nature vs. nurture". In other words what I was asking is are men better (and I think we can agree they currently are) because of the genetics of being men (nature) or because of the way they were raised (nurture). My point was that I know men have a genetic predisposition to be better at some physical activities and I think pool may be one of them.

[ QUOTE ]
Are you trying to say men are naturally better, you are an APA 6, I am a 7. I never touched a pool cue in my life till 9 years ago.
Again, what is your point? <hr /></blockquote>

I'm just using myself as an example of a very average male athletically speaking who improved rapidly. Maybe you're right I didn't come to any conclusion with that point, my bad. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think a very average women would improve to that level and certainly not so late in life. My guess is you are pretty good at other things physical, such as sports.

Steve Lipsky
06-09-2005, 10:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> Steve,

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
and perhaps check yourself into a local mental-health facility.<hr /></blockquote>

There is a distinct possiblility that a fair percentage who post on these pool forums don't need to CHECK THEMSELVES IN....LOL

<font color="blue">LMAO Cheese... </font color>

What would happen if Korr and the top ten men in the world were left in an avent and she was the ONE that had found the best break...hmmmmmm...I wonder..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<font color="blue">Definitely an interesting question. I think Karen would have trouble with the top men in a long race (11?), but could certainly beat them from time to time. To say she might beat four or five of them in a row is pushing it, but she's beaten a string of very impressive players in Joss Tour events, so anything's possible. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

SpiderMan
06-09-2005, 10:07 AM
I'm off-topic here, but I'm curious about your film. What is it?

SpiderMan

Qtec
06-09-2005, 10:25 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to offer an alternative viewpoint. It is: Who cares?

Unless you are a top 100 male player, and take this argument to be an affront to your ego, <font color="blue"> In your last match Steve, how worried were you about your opponents ego? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif You did beat earl, didnt you. Were you worried that he might get upset if you beat him? </font color> what does any of this matter? <font color="blue"> Does anything matter? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color> I don't think there's anyone on this board that can claim to be in this group, <font color="blue"> So what! </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

So what is it you are saying Steve? The board members cant discuss a subject because the people to whom it really matters are not even board members?////////??????????????........or something like that.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q

Jude_Rosenstock
06-09-2005, 10:27 AM
You know what? I'm sick and tired of all the women stealing the spotlight, playing pool like they think they know what they're doing. They should be home, in the kitchen, making my supper while I'm out at the poolroom, woofing at all the young lassies who attempt to make a ball with their feminine approach to an undisputably masculine game. They SHOULD play the men. Do away with their WPBA and put them in the rest of the mix!


Oops, gotta run. The Misses just called. She wants me home as quickly as possible. Sorry fellas. I'll continue my rant about how we're superior the moment she lets me back on the computer!

Voodoo Daddy
06-09-2005, 10:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr>
That was a good post and some very good reasons why. Except for the last about Sarah's cue. As unfortunate as that is I don't think men are any more accepting of having there cues stolen than women are.

<font color="blue"> Of course men don't like having their cues stolen, but they seem to like stealing them more than women do. </font color> </font color> <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Makes me think of the WHALE, HAHAHAHAHA. Tough being a "Big" Steve... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Barbara
06-09-2005, 10:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> You know what? I'm sick and tired of all the women stealing the spotlight, playing pool like they think they know what they're doing. They should be home, in the kitchen, making my supper while I'm out at the poolroom, woofing at all the young lassies who attempt to make a ball with their feminine approach to an undisputably masculine game. They SHOULD play the men. Do away with their WPBA and put them in the rest of the mix!


Oops, gotta run. The Misses just called. She wants me home as quickly as possible. Sorry fellas. I'll continue my rant about how we're superior the moment she lets me back on the computer! <hr /></blockquote>

Jude,

I think I'll just print out your little rant and show it to your fiance at Herbert's in July... /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Barbara

Fran Crimi
06-09-2005, 10:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr>
Makes me think of the WHALE, HAHAHAHAHA. Tough being a "Big" Steve... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>


<font color="blue">Hahahaha! He definitely came into my mind when I wrote that. That guy made stealing cues an art form.

I feel your pain, Steve. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran</font color>

Rich R.
06-09-2005, 10:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I think there may be an opening in the "Flat Earth society" for you to look into. In the 1960 90% if not or more pool rooms were located in bowling alleys. Every Brunswick house had nice rooms with 20 or more tables all family oriented, well maintained, marketed to the family. There were unlimited places for women to play. I may go as far as to say the pool environment may have been better back then, then it is now. You don't know what you are talking about. <hr /></blockquote>
Popcorn, I believe a lot depends on the area you lived in.
In the late 60's, none of the local bowling alleys in my area had more than a bar box or two. However, in another city, a short drive away, there were bowling alleys with many nice tables as you described.
I also worked at a pool room, during that period, and we didn't even have a ladies rest room. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif However, we didn't ban ladies from entering the room.

catscradle
06-09-2005, 10:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> ..., and we didn't even have a ladies rest room. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif However, we didn't ban ladies from entering the room.

<hr /></blockquote>
... just from take a pee. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jude_Rosenstock
06-09-2005, 10:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> You know what? I'm sick and tired of all the women stealing the spotlight, playing pool like they think they know what they're doing. They should be home, in the kitchen, making my supper while I'm out at the poolroom, woofing at all the young lassies who attempt to make a ball with their feminine approach to an undisputably masculine game. They SHOULD play the men. Do away with their WPBA and put them in the rest of the mix!


Oops, gotta run. The Misses just called. She wants me home as quickly as possible. Sorry fellas. I'll continue my rant about how we're superior the moment she lets me back on the computer! <hr /></blockquote>

Jude,

I think I'll just print out your little rant and show it to your fiance at Herbert's in July... /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>


Okay, no women on the internet, either! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CarolNYC
06-09-2005, 11:04 AM
Jude,
Being that we know eachother personally, I am laughing my A$$ off! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Carol~holding her stomach! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Steve Lipsky
06-09-2005, 11:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I'd like to offer an alternative viewpoint. It is: Who cares?

Unless you are a top 100 male player, and take this argument to be an affront to your ego, <font color="blue"> In your last match Steve, how worried were you about your opponents ego? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif You did beat earl, didnt you. Were you worried that he might get upset if you beat him? </font color>
Q <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Q... just to set the record straight, I got my arse handed to me by Earl. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

- Steve

Fran Crimi
06-09-2005, 11:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> There were unlimited places for women to play. I may go as far as to say the pool environment may have been better back then, then it is now. You don't know what you are talking about. <hr /></blockquote>

I remember those places back in the mid 70's. I cut my teeth in one of those places with the multi-colored cloths, hoping to attract more women. I think you're right that the environment in those type rooms was much better. They wouldn't tolerate the woofing and yelling back and forth. But that didn't last long, maybe a few years after that, then it was back to normal.

Fran

Popcorn
06-09-2005, 11:15 AM
Big Steve could really play, not many people knew that. He liked to take drive-away cars and keep them. I remember him driving around in a new Caddy for like 3 months till someone talked him into just leaving it beside the road to be found before he got caught. Big Steve was a phony as far as being a tush hog, he was just big but mostly a coward. Talking about stealing cues I was at the US Open in Chicago and Jean Balukas (sp?) left her cue &amp; case, a Balabushka, leaning against the bleachers and was running around the room playing. A guy I was with took it and I got it from him and gave it back to her and told her not to leave it lying around. She never knew it had already been stolen.

DonD
06-09-2005, 12:43 PM
ROFLMAO. and such is life, been there done that, my hat is off to anyone who wants to take on this sport and have a family life to boot, and able to make it work.

Jude_Rosenstock
06-09-2005, 01:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Jude,
Being that we know eachother personally, I am laughing my A$$ off! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Carol~holding her stomach! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>


Well, I cannot possibly take this discussion seriously. I mean, c'mon! I'm from New York City, for heaven's sake! All the women here play jam up! But, in respect to those that do take it seriously, the WPBA is a class act that has served as an example as to how a men's professional tour could be successful. Should they play the men? I'd like that but right now, that's not the product they wish to endorse. Right now, they're making their money off of women playing pool and until the bucks stop rolling in (which may be never), I see no reason why they should change their approach.

Besides, in every other sport, there are catagorical seperations that we think nothing of. You're never going to see Mike Tyson fight Caesar Chavez even though Chavez might be a better boxer at this point. You're never going to see a 6-year-old at the Kentucky Derby so don't count on Funny Cide making an appearance next year. The WPBA tour is about women and these women have a respectable product. It really should be left at that.

This argument is almost always started by a man who's sitting behind his computer with way too much time on their hands. I mean, I see no purpose whatsoever in bringing up this debate. This person's life will have zero change by the end of this discussion but for many of the women that are involved, they're likely to feel a bit more frustrated and a lot more angry. There is nothing to be gained. If the original poster is still unconvinced and needs to research further as to reasons behind gender segregation in sports, I suggest reading The Subjection of Women by John Stuart Mill. Not only was he a great influence on the philosphy of the American political system but also, he had a rather advanced and insightful ideology behind the reasons for a difference in the sexes.

In sum, there is a WPBA and a WNBA and women's running and women's poker because the subjection of women is omnipresent. Sometimes it's as obvious as a sign barring women from entry but the vast majority of the time, it's subtle. It's something that unless you stop and take notice, you'll never even think of it but over time, it has had its effect. Ever since the dawn of humankind, women have been treated subordinately. When the day comes that we can honestly say that in all regards, women are on equal footing, treated as peers, you cannot say women are in their natural state. Until that day, it is absolutely impossible and unfair to pass judgment on what they are capable of. It simply shows a lack of respect and intelligent thought.

SPetty
06-09-2005, 01:16 PM
I think I love you.

I've never heard a man say what you said with the understanding that you seem to have. There are even many women that don't get it. And to think I started to bristle at your kitchen comment...

Wish I had time to read.

Scott Lee
06-09-2005, 01:56 PM
tap, tap, tap! Great post Jude!

Scott Lee

Deeman2
06-09-2005, 02:10 PM
Jude,

Great Post. It's good to see you are fully in touch with your femine side. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Deeman

Jude_Rosenstock
06-09-2005, 02:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> Jude,

Great Post. It's good to see you are fully in touch with your femine side. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, my feminine side just smacked the back of my head and told me to pick up my socks.

Popcorn
06-09-2005, 02:59 PM
I apologize for using the phrase, "Are you out of your mind". I type pretty fast and tend to write sort of the way I may talk. You may say to someone, "Are you crazy or something", and it would come across much different then in print. It may have no meaning at all just things that get thrown into a conversation. When I went back a read it, it sounded awful. I am sorry.

Eric.
06-09-2005, 05:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> You know what? I'm sick and tired of all the women stealing the spotlight, playing pool like they

*snip*

Sorry fellas. I'll continue my rant about how we're superior the moment she lets me back on the computer! <hr /></blockquote>

OK, I think I get your point, but how do you feel about Aliens in the Poolroom??


Eric

nhp
06-09-2005, 07:00 PM
Does anyone know of any female players shooting a .1000 on anything longer than a race to 7?

cuechick
06-09-2005, 07:20 PM
I actually took more offense to your second reply saying "You don't know what your talking about", I spent two years working on this project, researching and interviewing many, many players. My initial inspiration came from a story told in "Playing Off the Rail", that talked about a pool hall sporting signs saying "No Women Allowed" which became the name of my film project.
Along with Ewa Lawrence, I talked at great length to Jean Balukus who had to fight for over a year to be allowed to play in the Open. I also talked at length to Stu Montanna , a NY aficionado of the game and it's history, and he told me about some hard core rooms in the city that did not allow women because of the exact reason, mentioned earlier.
I also interviewed on film Dallas West, who was and is very opposed to women playing at all, and was very frank about it.
I am sure this was not prevalent everywhere and your experience was different. My project was unfortunately derailed by 911, and my producers and I had to move onto other things...I hope one day to get back to it.
But to think that discrimination did not exist at all, is just naive...pool like golf, in some instances and venues has been a men's club... a world women were not welcome in. Even if not blatantly posted on the door which was what Ewa encountered.

Jay M
06-09-2005, 07:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Q... just to set the record straight, I got my arse handed to me by Earl.

- Steve
<hr /></blockquote>

I feel you on that Steve. I got up 6-0 against him in one of the Predator events in FL and got my butt handed to me 9-7.

As to the topic at hand... I feel that the reason for the disparity between men and women in the sport right now is totally cultural. 50 years ago, women were expected to be in the kitchen, the home, babysitting the kids. At the same time, Miz, Rempe, Ray Martin and the rest were practicing pool. As time goes on, these Masters have spent more time teaching males due to the social mores against women players. With the change in attitudes in the late 80's, I expect to see women become totally competitive with the men some time in the 2020's. Not a prejudiced statement, but rather a statement based on historical data.

Jay M

Popcorn
06-09-2005, 08:20 PM
I know what they are talking about but it was a tiny part of the story. There was places that were back room type of places, I owned one. My windows were even boarded up so you could not see in and although women were more then welcome, would have felt funny coming in my place by themselves. In general though, the industry had built their advertising campaigns on the inclusion of women, not the exclusion. Ads in magazines advertising tables always showed women playing with the family and kids. Brunswick had rooms with the different colored cloth on the tables in an attempt to attract the women. I don't know why they thought that, but it was their thinking. Pool was even being played on college campuses by both men and women with annual championships. In 1962 the intercollegiate tournament had 4000 entrants men and girls. 1963 it jumped to 10,000 from 110 collages. In the late 60's I even taught a class on pool at a local collage and more then half the kids were always girls. I am not guessing or going by memory but I am looking at contemporary articles written at the time. I am looking at a trade magazine right now from May 1962 with an article on attracting more women to your room. In the 70's the women's US Open straight pool tournament was being played right along side the men's tournament at the same time drawing big crowds. The Sheridan Chicago would sell out I would guess 1500 seats every night. It was a huge room with a big balcony.

Miss Balukus won it multiple times, so I don't know what she is talking about feeling there was no venue for her to play. She was a celebrity at the time even competing in an all around athlete tournament on ABC, coming in third by the way against the best women athletes in the world. If you today were talking about some back alley bar and comparing it to a nice family restaurant, that would be a pretty good comparison to what you were told. Of course there were pool rooms that were not a place a woman would want to go, some men also for that matter, but that was not the norm or the way the industry was going in general. In general it was family all the way and women out playing with the husband and kids, it was maybe one of the biggest heydays of pool. I am not saying the people you are talking about were lying just they were telling a small part of the story. Also when someone tells you a story about themselves, it is a better story if they embellish it with the obstacles and adversities they had to over come , some maybe not so true.

It is like a born again Christian. Their faith sounds better if it saved them from some kind of terrible life. I know one guy a pool player who tells how he was on drugs and drinking, womanizing and so on. It is a compelling story and sounds like his conversion saved his life. I have known the guy all his life, non of this is true but the more he tells it, I doubt he even knows what the truth is anymore. You know what I mean, it makes a better story then "I had a happy life but one day decided to find Christ.

Below is an artical from the St.Louis Dispatch Aug 1961
I don't know if it will be readable but it is about womens league play.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid172/pccabd7bed4724f3724baad7a7e5eef62/f3c3c6b8.jpg

Drop1
06-09-2005, 08:46 PM
I'm the one that started what you call "the argument" So far I think it has been intresting. The remark that these kinds of arguments are started by some man on the computer,with too much time on his hands is fair,and I think insightful on your part. Glad you had the spare time to squeeze in your response.

Fran Crimi
06-09-2005, 09:56 PM
Nice company you kept. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

We all knew big Steve could play, but the fact that he was a liar, thief and a cheat overshadowed whatever ability he had. He'd steal wallets off the old men who fell asleep in their chairs. One of his favorite pastimes besides stealing cues was slashing tires. If you insulted him in any way, you'd find your tires slashed. I remember one time he kept turning off the light on me while I was in the ladies room. I finally got disgusted and yelled at him to stop it. That night at 3AM I found two of my tires slashed. He just sat in the back of the pool room laughing. We had to endure this worthless piece of garbage for 3 or 4 years before he was finally carted off to jail. They were the worst years I ever spent in pool, thanks to him.

Fran

Jude_Rosenstock
06-09-2005, 11:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> You know what? I'm sick and tired of all the women stealing the spotlight, playing pool like they

*snip*

Sorry fellas. I'll continue my rant about how we're superior the moment she lets me back on the computer! <hr /></blockquote>

OK, I think I get your point, but how do you feel about Aliens in the Poolroom??


Eric <hr /></blockquote>

That depends. How well do they play and how much money do they have?

CarolNYC
06-10-2005, 02:36 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I mean, c'mon! I'm from New York City, for heaven's sake! <hr /></blockquote>

Hell's kitchen,no less-LMAO-God, I love ya Jude!

Because I know YOUR skill,knowledge and then combined with your sensibility&amp;humor, your cracking me up! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
All the women here play jam up <hr /></blockquote>
We're fortunate to have ALL YOU GUYS to play jam up with /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
WPBA is a class act that has served as an example as to how a men's professional tour could be successful <hr /></blockquote>

There it is-I KNEW you were gonna say something like this!

You go Jude! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Talk to ya soon!
Stay cool!
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CarolNYC
06-10-2005, 02:40 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think I love you.

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah Spetty,
If you havent met him, your gonna love him! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol~I do!!!!!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

cuechick
06-10-2005, 05:17 AM
Hey Popcorn,
That is great info and I think very important to see that pool has more than one history. I am sure the hardcore players rooms in NY were the exception not the rule. From what I read, billiards was originally created (mid 15th century, I think?) as a female past time in france for gentile women to play while men went hunting...
I realize you are speaking from experiance and I appreicate that...if I ever get this project back on track I'd love to pick your brain some more.
As far as Jean goes, I can understand her wanting to play against men. She was simply bored playing the women. I played in a local APA women's league and after two seasons, there just was not enough competition to keep me interested...just winning, is not always enough. You want a challenge.

DickLeonard
06-10-2005, 06:21 AM
Fran when I was traveling around in the late 60s anytime we would go in a strange poolroom my friend Ralphie would say I don't like the looks of this place what if they have guns and his friend Dobber would say what are you worried about they still have to pull them. ####

Fred Agnir
06-10-2005, 06:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jay M:</font><hr>
As to the topic at hand... I feel that the reason for the disparity between men and women in the sport right now is totally cultural. 50 years ago, women were expected to be in the kitchen, the home, babysitting the kids. <hr /></blockquote>

I know it's easy and PC to say this, but ... let's compare to other activities that share the same history as pool. Specifically, poker. Poker, an activity that truly has no reason for gender boundaries proves that there are none as three of the 33 WSOP open championships at last year were won by ladies. The female to male ratio is less than 10%, but they won ~ 10% of the championship. And before it was so much in the limelight, there already were women WSOP bracelet winners and women who were on anyone's top 10 list (Harmon, Lieberman, and of late, Annie Duke).

So, although I'm not discounting cultural and nurturing, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss nature and genetics. If genetics had nothing to do with it, the percentage of women top players should be the same as the overall number of women players, just as you see in poker. But it's not even close. It's been getting closer, but it's not close.

Fred

Qtec
06-10-2005, 07:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Poker, an activity that truly has no reason for gender boundaries proves that there are none as three of the 33 WSOP open championships at last year were won by ladies. <hr /></blockquote>

What? [I think that didnt come out right.]

I fail to see the comparison between Poker and Pool! The only thing it proves is that women are just as smart, and just as sneaky as the men.

The dif between the Guys and the Gals is, opportunity and motivation.
M.Wie, a 15 year old amateur golfer from Hawai, has played in Pro tourneys in the US and already won $250,000. None of which she can accept because she is an amateur.

She has already refused more money than many top female pro,s will ever earn from the game.
That might be one reason.

Q

SpiderMan
06-10-2005, 08:48 AM
Fred, regardless of the sense it may make, it's not PC to tell anyone they can't be "the best" no matter how hard they try. Our society has more or less rejected any notions of invisible inborn ability (at least if it's genetically linked to race, gender, or any other taboo discriminant).

Yet that's the bottom-line question .. is pool-playing ability solely dictated by environment? Given reasonable "extrinsic" physical characteristics, will equally-trained competitors fare equally in the billiards arena? Or, at the top levels, are there inborn differences (perhaps in thought process or some specific points of coordination) that differentiate the exceptional from the merely great?

And, if so, why couldn't these inborn characteristics be gender-biased as so many, more easily-measured traits, are? Role differentiation has been around for millenia - plenty of time for natural selection to breed these sort of things into us.

Would we accept the notion of white runners being more successful as marathoners than sprinters? Is it somewhat because of genetically-linked orthopedics that slightly favor one activity over the other? That's physical and easily observed, so we don't try to argue that it's some cultural thing that makes one group "choose" to practice a different specialty.

What we're questioning here is more abstract and less easily observed. So, in the absense of hard facts, can you blame anyone for not wanting to consider that "the top levels" of what appears a gender-neutral activity at the intermediate level may be biased against them at the highest levels?

Fifty years from now, our grandchildren may have these same arguments. Too bad we don't have an objective non-pool-playing anthropologist (with thick skin) on tap.

SpiderMan

Qtec
06-10-2005, 08:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Fred, regardless of the sense it may make, it's not PC to tell anyone they can't be "the best" no matter how hard they try. <font color="blue"> </font color> Our society has more or less rejected any notions of invisible inborn ability (at least if it's genetically linked to race, gender, or any other taboo discriminant).

Yet that's the bottom-line question .. is pool-playing ability solely dictated by environment? Given reasonable "extrinsic" physical characteristics, will equally-trained competitors fare equally in the billiards arena? Or, at the top levels, are there inborn differences (perhaps in thought process or some specific points of coordination) that differentiate the exceptional from the merely great?

And, if so, why couldn't these inborn characteristics be gender-biased as so many, more easily-measured traits, are? Role differentiation has been around for millenia - plenty of time for natural selection to breed these sort of things into us.

Why do we so readily accept the notion of white runners being more likely as champion marathoners than champion sprinters? Isn't it somewhat because of genetically-linked orthopedics that slightly favor one activity over the other? That's physical and easily observed, so we don't try to argue that it's some cultural thing that makes one group "choose" to practice a different specialty.

What we're questioning here is more abstract and less easily observed. So, in the absense of hard facts, can you blame anyone for not wanting to consider that "the top levels" of what appears a gender-neutral activity at the intermediate level may be biased against them at the highest levels?

Fifty years from now, our grandchildren may have these same arguments. Too bad we don't have an objective non-pool-playing anthropologist (with thick skin) on tap.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

"Why do we so readily accept the notion of white runners being more likely as champion marathoners than champion sprinters?" <font color="blue">??????????????????????????
What are you talking about? I have no idea!
S, that doesnt make sense!


Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif </font color>

SpiderMan
06-10-2005, 09:07 AM
There was a place on the west side of the Missisippi (opposite Memphis) where my friend Danny's band would play on some weekends. It was up on stilts because of the flood plain, and he said the pool table shifted around sometimes when the building was loaded. He said everybody in there had a gun or a knife. One of those places where they searched you at the door, and gave you one if you forgot yours. Also heard that a lot of the women in there had black eyes and bruises, and some but not all had teeth.

Anyway, Danny used to tell stories about the guns. On one occasion he said two drunks were shooting at a motorcycle that went by on the road, about a 1/4 mile away. Don't know if the rider was aware. Another time he told about a guy whose pistol fell out of his pants on the dance floor, and how funny it was watching this guy on his hands and knees trying to retrieve a gun being kicked here and there, without getting his fingers stepped on.

It sounded like a tall tale at the time, and I was close to agreeing to go over there and play pool for money, but after hanging out with Danny at the 18-Wheeler lounge (another Memphis joint that Deeman2 can tell stories about), I suspected that some of Danny's stories about the seedy side were true. I decided not to go across the river on Saturday night.

BTW, Danny eventually spent 2 years as a "guest" of Parchman for events related to the 18-Wheeler and it's patrons.

SpiderMan

Deeman2
06-10-2005, 09:41 AM
Spiderman is telling the God's honest truth here. I you would go and play in these spots in Memphis and the surrounding area, you would play anywhere. If you could make it out with the cash, you were more than a Player....

Deeman

Eric.
06-10-2005, 11:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> That depends. How well do they play and how much money do they have? <hr /></blockquote>

I dunno. I'll defer to One (not to be confused with #2 /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif )


Eric &gt;full of #2