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SpiderMan
06-09-2005, 09:08 AM
Fast Larry is right about ELEVATING for power draw, and the one-fits-all rote instruction you often see and hear is inadequate <font color="red">for this type of shot</font color> .

Over years of playing, I too seemed to notice that, for long draw shots where the cueball and object ball are far apart, jacking up a little allowed me to get more draw without golfing the cueball into the air.

When my nerdy analytic mind first considered the "why" of this working, I thought that perhaps I was preserving my backspin by adding a little bit of "jump" to the shot and limiting contact with the cloth. But I discounted that theory because, even if you get as level as possible, you still get air time on a hard draw shot. Prove it to yourself by putting coins in front of the cueball.

<font color="red">My current position is that it's a matter of squirt and compensation, same as when using sidespin.</font color>

Consider what happens when you put right on the cueball - it's path "squirts" a little to the left. So, to make the shot, you also compensate by aiming a little to the right. This launches the spinning cueball straight along your original intended line-of-aim.

See where I'm going? Use right spin, cueball squirts left, so aim a little right to compensate. <font color="red"> USE BOTTOM SPIN, CUEBALL SQUIRTS UP, SO AIM A LITTLE DOWN TO COMPENSATE</font color>. The "launch trajectory" of the cueball may actually be closer to horizontal when aiming down, than when applying a similar amount of level-cue backspin.

<font color="red">Like it or not, we play pool in three dimensions. When you draw with a level cue, you "squirt" the cueball into the air. Use this in an all-out power-draw situation, without compensating your aim downward, and you may be playing on the floor.</font color>

Larry also notes that each player's "ideal" angle will be a little different. I suspect this is tied to the squirt characteristics of the cues. This would imply that players using low-squirt cues such as the predator 314 should need less jack-up than players using shafts with higher effective end mass. I wonder if anyone has made this observation?

Finally, to address the comments regarding hitting the cueball a little higher when you jack up - yes, this is true. But you still get the same amount of "retrograde" rotation, because this is totally a function of how far your cue's line of travel is offset from the cueball's center of mass. Think about it - if you jack up far enough, you can get lots of backspin even hitting above the equator - we call that a masse'.

Dr Dave, Bob J, Fred A ... what's your take on this theory? Randy, Scott, Rod Elliot - what do you endorse? Students - if your instructors covered power draw, what did they say?

Control, finesse, and swerve avoidance dictate my level cue for less-radical shots, but for long power draw I jack up a little - because it works.

SpiderMan

Deeman2
06-09-2005, 09:48 AM
Spiderman, You didn't ask me but: I never disagreed with F/L that you can't hit a power draw with an elevated cue. In the post, we were talking about a draw shot, not a power draw. I think most of us do elevate a little more for a length of the table type draw. The poster in the other thread was asking about a draw shot, not a power draw. Larry's answer was:

"You dont use a smooth follow thru on the draw, its a violent stab. You dont use a loose grip, you grab the stick at impact. You have almost no follow thru. Just because somebody gets on TV, does not mean they know squat."

Now, I agree with you that we do get some upward squirt on an elevated shot but is that the reason for the increased spin? My thought is that you are kneeding the ball a little more, similar to a masse shot when you elevate a lillte more. The ball is a little more "trapped" bny the tip and squeezes the ball betwen the tip and cloth. I'm not positive about that but it seems to make sense to me.

I also don't agree with Larry that you don't need a follow through on normal draw shots. I know it's not necessary for a ball to draw but I think the mental part of stopping your shot on purpose as a normal part of your game is not good. We see these type players every day and they start jumping up sooner and sooner with that type of trunicated stroke. If you advocate a "violent stab" on your neomal draw strokes, you can't be seriouly helping 90% of the players out there.

If Larry has 17 ways to draw a ball, let him come on here and describe them all and their benefit. I'v eonly seen the one and if it's a description for what we should all be doing on our draw strokes (power draw and nip draw excepted) I am in the wrong side of the boat.

Deeman

ras314
06-09-2005, 09:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Fast Larry is right about the correct method for executing power draw, and the one-fits-all rote instruction you often see and hear is inadequate <font color="red">for this type of shot</font color> .

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>
You've got more nerve than I with this post. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

However the "low, level as possible" hit is usually not claimed to be the only way to get back spin, or even the way to obtain the "most" back spin, just the easiest to learn and control.

Seems to me the ball stays on or close to the cloth if the classic "pin the elbow" pendulum stroke is used. I think the motion of the cue tip is somewhat downward at cb contact, depending on just how perpendicular the forearm is as well as how jacked up the cue is. So the stroke will vary somewhat as well as the shaft squirt for different players.

Must admit I have yet to perform a table lenght draw, just some thoughts.

SpiderMan
06-09-2005, 10:04 AM
Understood. But hopefully the title and text both are clear - I'm talking about POWER DRAW. I'm agreeing with Larry's assertion that a power draw CAN be more effectively executed with a slightly-elevated cue. And I'm offering a theory to explain the observation.

This doesn't address anything else Larry has said on the topic of draw shots ... 17 types/snap/wrist/triangle/friggin, or whatever. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

Qtec
06-09-2005, 10:09 AM
Spiderman, if someone has hacked into your post and this is not from you, ignore this.<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Fast Larry is right about the correct method for executing power draw, and the one-fits-all rote instruction you often see and hear is inadequate <font color="red">for this type of shot</font color> .

Over years of playing, I too seemed to notice that, for long draw shots where the cueball and object ball are far apart, jacking up a little allowed me to get more draw without golfing the cueball into the air. <font color="blue"> Thats a stroke /timing problem. </font color>

When my nerdy analytic mind first considered the "why" of this working, I thought that perhaps I was preserving my backspin by adding a little bit of "jump" to the shot and limiting contact with the cloth. But I discounted that theory because, even if you get as level as possible, you still get air time on a hard draw shot. Prove it to yourself by putting coins in front of the cueball. <font color="blue"> </font color>

<font color="red">My current position is that it's a matter of squirt and compensation, same as when using sidespin.</font color> <font color="blue"> </font color>

Consider what happens when you put right on the cueball - it's path "squirts" a little to the left. So, to make the shot, you also compensate by aiming a little to the right. This launches the spinning cueball straight along your original intended line-of-aim.

See where I'm going? Use right spin, cueball squirts left, so aim a little right to compensate. USE BOTTOM SPIN, CUEBALL SQUIRTS UP, SO AIM A LITTLE DOWN TO COMPENSATE. The "launch trajectory" of the cueball may actually be closer to horizontal when aiming down, than when applying a similar amount of level-cue backspin. <font color="blue"> I,m sorry to disappoint you but this is OLD news. Isnt squirt a result of 'off center striking'? Your'e a smart guy with a good understanding of physics[ much better than I have ], what ever led you to believe that squirt was ever confined solely to the left/right axis? </font color>

Like it or not, we play pool in three dimensions. <font color="blue"> Is pool a 3 D game? Its a good question worth further debate. </font color> When you draw with a level cue, you "squirt" the cueball into the air. <font color="blue"> Yes. </font color> Use this in an all-out power-draw situation, without compensating your aim downward, and you may be playing on the floor. <font color="blue"> Is the Qb still in the air when it hits an OB 5ft away? </font color>

Larry also notes that each player's "ideal" angle will be a little different. I suspect this is tied to the squirt characteristics of the cues. This would imply that players using low-squirt cues such as the predator 314 should need less jack-up than players using shafts with higher effective end mass. I wonder if anyone has made this observation? If so, it would tend to back up Larry's assertion.

Finally, to address the comments regarding hitting the cueball a little higher when you jack up - yes, this is true. But you still get the same amount of "retrograde" rotation, because this is totally a function of how far your cue's line of travel is offset from the cueball's center of mass. <font color="blue"> I,m pretty sure Randy G mentioned something about cue angle affecting spin not so long ago!</font color> Think about it - if you jack up far enough, you can get lots of backspin even hitting above the equator - we call that a masse'.

Dr Dave, Bob J, Fred A ... what's your take on this theory? Randy, Scott, Rod Elliot - what do you endorse?

Control, finesse, and swerve avoidance dictate my level cue for less-radical shots, but for long power draw I jack up a little - because it works. <font color="blue"> In normal pool[ not artistic] drawing back is not enough. You also have to pocket a ball!
When you jack up, does it help with aiming?

Here , this is really going to freak you out,[ j/k /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif], you also get squirt when you hit ABOVE center.[ equator] </font color>

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>


Dont you think, because of the squirt factor, this method is really only applicable when the balls are close together?
Qtec /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

SpiderMan
06-09-2005, 10:20 AM
Qtec,

No, it's really me. I think you may have missed my point. Of course squirt is nothing new. But neither is the observation that a long power draw can be aided by slightly jacking up. Everyone is familiar with the former, yet many seem to be in denial over the latter. I used the familiar as an illustrative theory for the less-obvious.

Your comments on topspin are correct - you would indeed get "downward squirt" with an above-center hit. But in practice it would be hard to do much about compensation, because you'd have to "jack down", so that's probably going to be limited to academic discussion only. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I could not tell from your response whether you agreed or not - do you believe a long power draw is best hit with a level-as-possible cue, or slightly more elevated?

SpiderMan

Qtec
06-09-2005, 10:40 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I could not tell from your response whether you agreed or not - do you believe a long power draw is best hit with a level-as-possible cue, or slightly more elevated <hr /></blockquote>

Slightly elevated is different to jacking up [ at least in my book]. Semantics is always a problem when we try to discuss these things.

Its not neccessary to 'jack up' to play a deep screw/draw. I think the low and level increases accuracy. Even if you dont get the draw you wanted, you usually still pot the ball.
You can use both methods.

Q

sack316
06-09-2005, 11:22 AM
I think spiderman's observation (or Larry's, bot sure who's) is right from what I've seen. Say what you will about Larry (and I'd agree with you) but the man can draw like nobody I've ever seen. Now as far as this goes with the power draw, I'm assuming you mean with a long distance between the CB and OB, in which case in my learning does require some elevation to keep the friction with the cloth down, in order to keep the energy of the backspin more in tact once it contacts the object ball. Now, if they are close together I don't think it would do anything but pop one or both balls in the air. JMHO

SpiderMan
06-09-2005, 12:38 PM
Yes, I am referring to the case where there is a long distance between the two balls, because this places the most extreme demand on the shooter's execution. This is where we may observe a benefit from elevating the butt of the cue.

SpiderMan

Barbara
06-09-2005, 12:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Yes, I am referring to the case where there is a long distance between the two balls, because this places the most extreme demand on the shooter's execution. This is where we may observe a benefit from elevating the butt of the cue.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Are we also dropping the elbow on the follow-thru? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Barbara

Fred Agnir
06-09-2005, 12:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Dr Dave, Bob J, Fred A ... what's your take on this theory?
<hr /></blockquote>I like it. Gives me a good idea of how much elevation we're talking about. For my cue with an 11" pivot point, I would then aim center (through the pit) and pivot the tip down to the desired draw using an 11" pivot bridge.

Fred

Deeman2
06-09-2005, 12:57 PM
Spiderman,

Then this we all agree on. All I was asking was for Larry to describe the 17 types of draw in detail. Now, I have an e-mail from him linking me back to this thread and saying he was chased off the CCB, once again by us Clubbies and directing me to join him on three other more tolerant chat areas. I seem to remember him denying he was F/L in the other thread but, whatever. ("Who is FL?")

I know he can draw a ball as another poster has stated. I am just tired of hearing about 17 different ways to draw and no detail to back it up. I can say there are 39 distinct ways to miscue but I should be able to at least describe a few of them. I could also claim that I held a bunch of world records but some of you might question me on that. He pretends to have secrets no other pool instructor has and the blessing of many long dead pool champions. Just show us the money.

Some of you Fast Larry advocates, please just tell us about the 17 ways to draw. Certainly he has shared that with his pupils. I, too, believe there is some truth in what Larry claims. However, to give him credibility in one area without questioning his outragous claims in another is not right. As much as Dr. Dave and some others here might disagree on some things, they all, at least, step up with their best arguments for a case. F/L is all hit and run.

Deeman
been hit and run over.... (been shot at and missed and s**t at and hit!)

Scott Lee
06-09-2005, 01:30 PM
Dee...I'm with you! My only problem with Larry is his "my way or the highway" attitude, which likely accounts for his lack of students. Do you HAVE to jack up to power draw? Absolutely not...unless you're close to the rail. Will elevating the butt project more backspin on the CB? That is open for debate. For some it will, for others it won't.
Mike Massey can draw the ball better than Larry could ever dream of, and he doesn't "violently stab" the CB (it's a very fast smooth stroke), definitely follows through, and rarely elevates the cue much (except in shots where it's necessary). The original poster was asking about the draw shot, of which power draw is a subset, learned AFTER you can draw easily and accurately in other situations. You never learn power draw first...EVER! jmo

Scott

SpiderMan
06-09-2005, 01:50 PM
Dee,

You have a valid gripe about the 17 types of draw. I haven't a clue what they are, or if there are 10, 25, or 40 /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

But I was trying to start a discussion on this ONE technique for ONE type of draw, because I think it is often ignored. So I guess I'm trying to herd you back on topic, and my topic is not Fast Larry's resume' - just whether or not the cue should be elevated for long power draw.

I KNOW that YOU elevate the cue for long power draw. And you do it better than I. Actually, I couldn't commit to doing it "right" until I was comfortable with the physical sense of it, so I'm a late bloomer. I was a slave to the one-fits-all dogma of the level-as-possible cue. After all, how could there be exceptions to a mantra repeated so often by so many?

I'm usually quicker to deviate and follow the facts.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
06-09-2005, 02:07 PM
Does Mike Massey use a level-as-possible cue for a maximum draw, where the CB and OB are seven feet apart? That's the special case under consideration.

I keep as level a cue as possible for 99% of shots, for reasons I stated in my original post. But this is a specialty shot that, when needed, may warrant trading off precision to gain an extra few feet of distance.

My ability to draw with a level cue won't equal yours or Mike Massey's. So, if I'm faced with a situation where I need an extra 24 inches but would take 18 or 30, I'll appreciate the option.

SpiderMan

Deeman2
06-09-2005, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Dee,

You have a valid gripe about the 17 types of draw. I haven't a clue what they are, or if there are 10, 25, or 40 /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

But I was trying to start a discussion on this ONE technique for ONE type of draw, because I think it is often ignored. So I guess I'm trying to herd you back on topic, and my topic is not Fast Larry's resume' - just whether or not the cue should be elevated for long power draw.

I KNOW that YOU elevate the cue for long power draw. And you do it better than I. Actually, I couldn't commit to doing it "right" until I was comfortable with the physical sense of it, so I'm a late bloomer. I was a slave to the one-fits-all dogma of the level-as-possible cue. After all, how could there be exceptions to a mantra repeated so often by so many?

I'm usually quicker to deviate and follow the facts.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

So back on topic, what do you think about my thought that, perhaps, the kneeding of the cue tip on the cue ball might add something to the spin? I know you have the squirt you were talking about but it seems, with maximum squirt (gravity holding it down a bit)somethng else must be happening. </font color>

Deeman

Fred Agnir
06-09-2005, 02:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Fast Larry is right about ELEVATING for power draw, <hr /></blockquote>Not to disrupt an otherwise very good post, but calling Fast Larry right on this is just going to feed his delusions. I think it might have better to say that Jeanette Lee was right about elevating for draw. Not to mention a few of us that have been bringing up slight elevation for draw for many years now.

Fred

TomBrooklyn
06-09-2005, 02:18 PM
Post deleted by ccb_admin_2

SpiderMan
06-09-2005, 02:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Dee,

You have a valid gripe about the 17 types of draw. I haven't a clue what they are, or if there are 10, 25, or 40 /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

But I was trying to start a discussion on this ONE technique for ONE type of draw, because I think it is often ignored. So I guess I'm trying to herd you back on topic, and my topic is not Fast Larry's resume' - just whether or not the cue should be elevated for long power draw.

I KNOW that YOU elevate the cue for long power draw. And you do it better than I. Actually, I couldn't commit to doing it "right" until I was comfortable with the physical sense of it, so I'm a late bloomer. I was a slave to the one-fits-all dogma of the level-as-possible cue. After all, how could there be exceptions to a mantra repeated so often by so many?

I'm usually quicker to deviate and follow the facts.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

So back on topic, what do you think about my thought that, perhaps, the kneeding of the cue tip on the cue ball might add something to the spin? I know you have the squirt you were talking about but it seems, with maximum squirt (gravity holding it down a bit)somethng else must be happening. </font color>

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

I'm assuming that you mean perhaps the dwell time of the tip gets increased as the CB bunches into the cloth, maybe even resulting in stored energy somewhere that gets converted to spin?

I think it's a great idea to broach with Dr Dave this weekend. I'd love to see some high-speed video of a "measle ball" that could reveal the launch angles and amount of spin for various cueing techniques. But he may be fried after a full day at Cue-Tech, and just want to play cards.

BTW, I believe that the upward squirt angle should not be affected by gravity, only relative masses as in sideways squirt. Gravity would govern the shape of the parabolic path (more gravity = sooner and sharper descent), but the initial angle should be independent. Of course, in side squirt, the initial angle is the final path.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
06-09-2005, 02:38 PM
Fred,

You are right in noting that there are several CCB advocates of this technique, yourself included. I certainly did not mean to ignore that. And there are many other advocates, plus countless practitioners.

Larry was the most recent and most vocal, but also he is the one who sharply criticized the mainstream instructional materials for their shortcoming. I'd never thought about it as such, but that's probably why I was so resistant to accept what I was seeing.

SpiderMan

Leviathan
06-09-2005, 03:25 PM
Your observations about "vertical squirt" are interesting. Also, I don't think one can strike the cb lower than the height of his bridge plus about half the diameter of his cue's tip unless he elevates the butt of his cue at least slightly. My own formula for long draw is to elevate the butt of my cue just enough so I can strike the cb very low, and to use a strong stroke with a long, low follow-through. I don't get great results; maybe I'll try a little more elevation and see what happens.

AS

Stretch
06-09-2005, 05:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Your observations about "vertical squirt" are interesting. Also, I don't think one can strike the cb lower than the height of his bridge plus about half the diameter of his cue's tip unless he elevates the butt of his cue at least slightly. My own formula for long draw is to elevate the butt of my cue just enough so I can strike the cb very low, and to use a strong stroke with a long, low follow-through. I don't get great results; maybe I'll try a little more elevation and see what happens.

AS <hr /></blockquote>

I was experiencing this verticle squirt on my break shots. Damn q ball would hop on contact, and lose power. I think the sweete spot for break speed is when you find the elevation and speed which matches the squirt so they cancell each other out and produce a perfect flat skimming rock into the pack. too often the slightest hop or skip kills the impact. I found it by imagining there was a glass cover on the table with just enough clearence for the balls to roll. So now i had to break the balls, without breaking the glass lol. Weird eh? but it got me some great breaks! St.

Troy
06-09-2005, 06:01 PM
Tom B has been brainwashed for quite some time.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> Hi Spider,

The Fast One wishes to bestow upon you, as a reward for your courage in promulgating the truth (and presumably for your astuteness also [Ed.]) , a complimentary copy of his DVD.

He asks that you advise him where he should send it. (He actually requested I do this via PM. It was my own idea to advise you of his appreciation publicly. I hope he doesn't mind.)

----

He also asked me to post the following: Fast Larry commented on the draw for one day, and then the next morning the admin silenced his voice. People are asking him questions. Please understand he does not continue to respond because CCB shut him down. He is now posting every day on 3 other major boards so just transfer your discussion over there and he will find you.
<hr /></blockquote>

ras314
06-09-2005, 06:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Dr Dave, Bob J, Fred A ... what's your take on this theory?
<hr /></blockquote>I like it. Gives me a good idea of how much elevation we're talking about. For my cue with an 11" pivot point, I would then aim center (through the pit) and pivot the tip down to the desired draw using an 11" pivot bridge.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

OMG, now we have "up hand" english to add to "back hand english"? Or is it "down hand english"? /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Wait, maybe "back hand elevation" would be a better term. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jay M
06-09-2005, 07:41 PM
*sigh*... The truth of draw is, coming from someone that can draw 5 rails to the side consistently (ask Scott Lee, I did it against him during 9 ball and again against Big Steve in a one pocket match in FL), is that the angle of the cue to the table ONLY affects draw up to a certain speed. When you reach a high enough speed to cause the cue ball to hop, you might as well be level with a good follow through. From that point on, the forward momentum of the cue ball is too high for the spin to overcome. If you shoot your draw shot and see the cue visibly stop then return violently for about 6 inches, then stop.... You've got your cue elevated. For a beginning to intermediate player, elevating the cue works. Once you've passed into that grey area between A+ and Pro, you'll find that your maximum draw is limited by the amount of elevation that you put on the cue.

Jay M

stickman
06-09-2005, 09:27 PM
Marty, I never elevate my cue on a long draw shot unless I'm on the rail. I do use a draw shot that I call a pinch shot. I'm not sure that's the proper terminology, but that's what I call it. I use it on a ball that's close to the cue ball, 2"s to 3"s or less, and not necessarily straight in. I elevate the back of the cue and use a smooth draw stroke. It allows me to take the cueball places I could never get to with a level stroke. I seem to get much more draw in this situation. I may have to experiment with your technique. My only fear is that on the long shots, it's hard enough to be accurate, without jacking up my cue. When I have tried drawing when shooting on the rail, my accuracy is sometimes effected.

Thunderduck
06-09-2005, 10:20 PM
I feel responsible for this thread... my incompetency has sparked a debate! Anyhow, Jeanette describes SHORT DRAW SHOT on page 72. The LONG DRAW SHOT is on page 73. Look how low the tip is for long draw. It is practically the very edge of the cue ball. When Im hitting at this spot, even if I hit my cue ball where I want to, it sometimes jumps. Maybe only the top part of my cue is hitting the ball.... thats my current theory... I assume the entire tip should hit it... cleanly...

Guess some BCA instructor is about to get real rich off me!

QUACK!

TomBrooklyn
06-09-2005, 10:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> Tom B has been brainwashed for quite some time. <hr /></blockquote>
LOL

I'm not drinking any Kool Aid.

aco76
06-10-2005, 01:24 AM
Interesting thread, but I think you're all talking about the same thing. When people say elevate the cue butt SLIGHTLY, they certainly don't mean jacking up like you're shooting over the ball. Also, what we usually call "as level as possible" is probably at least 5 degrees elevated. Shooting with absolute 0 degrees, i.e. no elevation at all, not even the slightest amount? Maybe for some follow shots in the middle of the table, but otherwise the rails get in the way!

I know some players try to achieve power draw by elevating their cue very high to like 30 degrees or even more (just like they are shooting over an imaginary ball or something), and that's probably wrong because you get too much swerve and jump effect. And the aiming is negatively effected too...

Everybody uses some elevation for draw shots. For example for power draw I set my cue tip to point just one full diameter below center, while the middle part of the cue is about 1cm to 1.5cm above the rail, I see in the mirror that I elevate approximately 10-15 degrees or so which for all practical purposes you could call "level". I could try lowering the angle somewhat so that the middle part of the cue almost rests on the rail, but I need to give myself some tolerance for error cause if I set elevation angle too low, I might actually hit the rail with the middle part of the cue before cue tip contacts the white! I've also tried slightly higher elevation where the middle of the cue is about 3cm above the rail which gives noticeably increased angle. With both methods I can draw back full length if CB ond OB are 6 diamonds apart, so I must be doing something right. But with the first method, i.e. lower elevation I get more consistancy, not to mention that the sound is nicer too! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif The question whether to use very low or slightly higher elevation for power draw shots is probably a matter of preference, just like dropping the elbow during follow through or having only slight or almost no drop. Open or closed bridge falls into that category too. Whatever get you the results, right?

After 4 years of playing pool I've never done more than 1.5 table length of draw where the distance between CB and OB is some 6 or 7 diamonds. With consistancy I can bring the CB 6-7 diamonds back, but not much more. That's good enough so that I don't need to be scared of draw, but I'd still like to be able to draw 2 table lengths or more with consistancy. How does Mike Massey do it? Why is he able to draw more than 2 lengths, while I can do only one? Well, the answer is simple, and it's not about cue elevation at all. He hits the cue ball very low, very fast and loose. The key is control of the grip hand. Mine is probably only acceptable/OK, while Mike's is outstanding.

But I should not despare, cause there are a lot of top level pro's who I'm sure are NOT able to draw 2 table lengths...

Fred Agnir
06-10-2005, 06:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jay M:</font><hr> Once you've passed into that grey area between A+ and Pro, you'll find that your maximum draw is limited by the amount of elevation that you put on the cue.

Jay M <hr /></blockquote>Easy to say, but there isn't a professional out there that doesn't elevate his cue on power draw shots. I've spent years specifically watching this phenomenon, not just talking about it.

Fred

Qtec
06-10-2005, 06:55 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Easy to say, but there isn't a professional out there that doesn't elevate his cue on power draw shots.<hr /></blockquote>

That might be so, but how many actually do it on purpose?
Could this elevation be a result of something else?
Is a slight elevation the same as 'jacking up'?

Q........I think these are reasonable questions.

Leviathan
06-10-2005, 07:39 AM
Barbara mentions dropping the elbow. Many pros drop their elbow when executing power draw shots. If you start dropping your elbow before contact with the cb to get extra cue speed, you may have to begin with the butt of the cue elevated to get the cue reasonably level at contact.

AS

SpiderMan
06-10-2005, 07:50 AM
I agree there is a potential effect on accuracy, and on other parameters associated with "cueball control". But if it's a case where coming up short is a lot worse than drawing long, and you're on the hairy edge of your draw capability (whatever that may be) without miscue, then something that may add a foot has it's place.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
06-10-2005, 08:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Your observations about "vertical squirt" are interesting. Also, I don't think one can strike the cb lower than the height of his bridge plus about half the diameter of his cue's tip unless he elevates the butt of his cue at least slightly. My own formula for long draw is to elevate the butt of my cue just enough so I can strike the cb very low, and to use a strong stroke with a long, low follow-through. I don't get great results; maybe I'll try a little more elevation and see what happens.
AS <hr /></blockquote>
If what I'm thinking really holds water, then you're probably already pretty close to the optimum angle. This is assuming that the "vertical squirt" compensation can be treated like the "horizontal squirt" we're already used to dealing with. Of course, the fact that there is also the ball's contact patch with the table may affect the equation also.

I'm certainly going to start paying closer attention to folks who perform this shot well.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
06-10-2005, 08:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Your observations about "vertical squirt" are interesting. Also, I don't think one can strike the cb lower than the height of his bridge plus about half the diameter of his cue's tip unless he elevates the butt of his cue at least slightly. My own formula for long draw is to elevate the butt of my cue just enough so I can strike the cb very low, and to use a strong stroke with a long, low follow-through. I don't get great results; maybe I'll try a little more elevation and see what happens.

AS <hr /></blockquote>

I was experiencing this verticle squirt on my break shots. Damn q ball would hop on contact, and lose power. I think the sweete spot for break speed is when you find the elevation and speed which matches the squirt so they cancell each other out and produce a perfect flat skimming rock into the pack. too often the slightest hop or skip kills the impact. I found it by imagining there was a glass cover on the table with just enough clearence for the balls to roll. So now i had to break the balls, without breaking the glass lol. Weird eh? but it got me some great breaks! St. <hr /></blockquote>

Stretch,

I think that's an excellent analogy, and it captures exactly what I'm thinking ... to skim the cueball level downtable with draw, you can use a little elevation to compensate the vertical squirt.

SpiderMan

Qtec
06-10-2005, 08:25 AM
Which of these balls cant you bring back to pos. A?

START(
%AJ1D1%Bp2S4%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EU2D3%FK6P1%GK6N8%Hr5U7%I N8D2%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MD9C9%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pj9E0%Qp8D7%Up9F8%V F6D2%Wr2S8
%Xp4E6%]G3D3%^i8E1
)END


wei (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/%7Ewei/pool/pooltable2.html)

Q

SpiderMan
06-10-2005, 09:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Which of these balls cant you bring back to pos. A?

START(
%AJ1D1%Bp2S4%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EU2D3%FK6P1%GK6N8%Hr5U7%I N8D2%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MD9C9%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pj9E0%Qp8D7%Up9F8%V F6D2%Wr2S8
%Xp4E6%]G3D3%^i8E1
)END


wei (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/%7Ewei/pool/pooltable2.html)

Q <hr /></blockquote>

I guess I'm going to be an optimist, and say that I "can" do all of them. But sometimes I will fail, and of course it depends a lot on equipment, so I'm willing to look at any technique that increases my margin.

This one gives me fits, but I did pull an almost-identical shot off early in a game for a runout at the ACS state tourney.

START(
%AU6H0%BJ7Q0%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EN0O7%FK6P1%GK6N8%H_7Z6%I L4P6%JK6M5
%KT0F1%Lq8C9%MM2O5%N]8X1%OE3I5%Pj8N3%Qp8D7%WX4W7%Xs0H1%YD6D1
%ZT7G7%]W3H6%^i8N0%eB9b1%_r3G9%`[2G2%aV3G9
)END

Lower percentage, but the I remember thinking the layout was such that my opponent (a good player) would run out if I didn't. I intended to leave the cueball further to the right, so that when I shot the one I could just drift over left for the 8. I would up nearly straight-in but on the wrong side of the one. My opponent was grinning like a 'possum eating sour grapes, until I pulled this shot out of my ass.

SpiderMan

stickman
06-10-2005, 09:26 PM
I tried it tonight, with a slightly elevated cue, and got very good results. There is a difference between a slightly elevated cue, and shooting jacked up, such as trying to draw off a rail. I got noticeably better draw with a slightly elevated cue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fred Agnir
06-11-2005, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> That might be so, but how many actually do it on purpose?
Could this elevation be a result of something else?
Is a slight elevation the same as 'jacking up'?

Q........I think these are reasonable questions. <hr /></blockquote>All of which were probably already answered. And no, slight elevation is not the same as "jacking up."

Fred

Fred Agnir
06-11-2005, 02:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> I feel responsible for this thread... <hr /></blockquote>Don't. The thread has little to do with you. Hopefully, whatever question you asked, you got an answer.

Fred &lt;~~~ nothing is new

Rod
06-11-2005, 11:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Think about it - if you jack up far enough, you can get lots of backspin even hitting above the equator - we call that a masse'.
<hr /></blockquote>

Well not really, the equator moves with the cue angle. I know what your saying about sqiurt but there is a point of diminshing return reguarding elevation. Everyone shoots with an elevated cue, just how much is individual. There are some shots that benefit from more elevation but jacking up more for power draw, well ---- Hey if it works, do it. BUT, you might have a change of opinion later on down the road and find a happy cue angle for most shots.

Rod