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Thunderduck
06-10-2005, 07:12 PM
Do you remember the shot that Christopher Walken bets a Mercedes on? The cue ball and 8 ball are frozen to each other and also frozen on the rail next to the side pocket. The cue ball is kicked off the opposite rail and throws the 8 ball next to the side pocket. Then the cue ball comes back and hits the 8 ball in.

I tried to impress some chick with this shot! Problem is that I can only throw the 8 sideways by aiming far right, which changes the bank angle... If I aim for the correct bank angle the 8 ball doesnt get thrown... Do you use english on this shot maybe? Anyone ever attempted and made it?

QUACK

Drop1
06-10-2005, 07:36 PM
That shot is made with english half a cue tip left of center. This put right spin on cue off the rail,and moves the eight in front of pocket. Cue ball crosses the table,and hits rail with left english,coming back across with very slight right english,sinking the eight. Speed and cue control need to be just right.Bring your cue back quickly,as though you were shooting a stop shot,other wise you will jam your cue into the rail. If that dosen't work,change girls. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Tom_In_Cincy
06-10-2005, 09:23 PM
A very old tick shot.
Speed and aim are the trick.

Freeze the 8 ball and the cue ball against the rail at the 3rd diamond. The diamond should be in the middle of the two balls.

Aim the cue ball for the middle of the opposite side pocket and vary the speed until you get it right. I would start out just hitting the cue ball hard enough to go across table and back. NO English is required.

If you go back and watch the movie again, you'll see they don't use english.

Thunderduck
06-10-2005, 09:48 PM
So you aim for the pocket, and the ball ends up going left of the pocket..? what is this phenomenon known as? Squirt? Throw? Or something else?

Tom_In_Cincy
06-10-2005, 10:10 PM
The 8 ball is froze to the cue ball. The cue ball is hit at an angle (towards the opposite side pocket) the 8 ball is moved by the slight contact the cue ball makes as it is heading toward the side pocket.

BTW, the cue ball can't go in the side pocket, the 8 ball is blocking the direct path. So, the cue ball ends up hitting the opposite side rail at an angle and comes back and hits the 8 into the side pocket.

This takes some practice with the speed of the hit.

Drop1
06-10-2005, 10:10 PM
Thunderduck,
Try it both ways,only try my way from the other side of the table.Its easier,and looks harder. With the balls on either side of the third diamond,aiming for the middle of the pocket across the table won't work,because the cue ball will return left of the side pocket,while the eight ball will move out and towards the right. I will work it out at the V.F.W this week.

tjlmbklr
06-11-2005, 11:12 AM
This shot can be done without english. You just have to have it set up right..!

Scott Lee
06-11-2005, 01:07 PM
T-Duck...This is a very easy trickshot. Tom described perfectly how to set it up and make it. All you need to do is practice with the thinness of the hit on the frozen OB, the aim of the CB at the opposite rail, and how much speed and sidespin to put on the CB. You WILL need SOME english, but probably not much. How much depends on your stroke. The key is to practice having the CB and OB end up near the rail they start on (OB will be in front of the side pocket). When you get the speed down, you can control the angle of the kick on the CB by aiming a little bit more or less at the opposite side pocket.

Scott Lee

Thunderduck
06-11-2005, 03:32 PM
So you aim towards the right at the opposite side pocket , but the cue ball goes left and hits the left side rail... is this due to the 8 ball throwing the cue ball left?

Popcorn
06-12-2005, 12:00 AM
I have never seen the movie. Are you saying they had someone betting a car on that tired old shot that anyone who ever played pool would know? Wouldn't you think they would want to create some never before seen shot for the movie, one that people even players would come out talking about afterwards? Strange.

Thunderduck
06-12-2005, 12:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I have never seen the movie. Are you saying they had someone betting a car on that tired old shot that anyone who ever played pool would know? Wouldn't you think they would want to create some never before seen shot for the movie, one that people even players would come out talking about afterwards? Strange. <hr /></blockquote>

It impressed most newbies like me who never saw that before...

dr_dave
06-12-2005, 08:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> Do you remember the shot that Christopher Walken bets a Mercedes on? The cue ball and 8 ball are frozen to each other and also frozen on the rail next to the side pocket. The cue ball is kicked off the opposite rail and throws the 8 ball next to the side pocket. Then the cue ball comes back and hits the 8 ball in.

I tried to impress some chick with this shot! Problem is that I can only throw the 8 sideways by aiming far right, which changes the bank angle... If I aim for the correct bank angle the 8 ball doesnt get thrown... Do you use english on this shot maybe? Anyone ever attempted and made it?<hr /></blockquote>
FYI, the shot is diagramed and described in my October '04 BD instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html) and it is demonstrated in NV A.13 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/new/NVA-13.htm).

Dave

Popcorn
06-12-2005, 10:52 PM
It wasn't meant as an insult, but that shot is old as the hills and the tech person on the movie should have come up with something better then that. Again, I didn't see the movie but I would think in the context of the movie it would be hard to believe the person he was betting with would not know the shot.

Sarcastro
06-13-2005, 03:24 AM
Watch the movie, it fits the context. They hustle rich chumps who dont know any better. And Christopher Walken making the shot on the first take is still pretty good.

nhp
06-13-2005, 03:34 AM
LOL Sarcastro you got that name from The Tick didn't you? If so, that episode is hilarious!

Sarcastro
06-13-2005, 06:11 AM
LOL yah the Tick is one of my all-time favorite shows. Too bad he was only in the last episode, I thought he would've made a great recurring character.

poolturtle
06-13-2005, 06:25 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I have never seen the movie. Are you saying they had someone betting a car on that tired old shot that anyone who ever played pool would know? Wouldn't you think they would want to create some never before seen shot for the movie, one that people even players would come out talking about afterwards? Strange. <hr /></blockquote>

That shot didn't bother me so much, as far as fitting in the context. What got me was when the pro hustles the kid for several hundred dollars.

He used the hustle saying he'd spot the kid 4 balls in 8ball. THAT is one of the oldest hustles in the book, which wasn't so bad, except the kid was supposed to know all about pool, including how to hustle some.

Popcorn
06-13-2005, 08:29 AM
I know what you mean but in the movies the guys who do technical work when it comes to pool are pretty lame. They have players banking balls instead of shooting a ball straight in, or three railers that make no sense, you know what I mean. I just wish they would be a little more realistic as far as the way the game is portrayed. Even in the Hustler, the godfather of pool movies, it is screwed up and Mosconi was the advisor on the movie. Their playing straight pool he shoots the masse shot with two balls in the corner making both at the same time, Gleason is banking balls with other balls straight in. It would be just as easy and exciting to do it realistically. Just one of my pet peeves with movies, they don't every try sometimes. I wish Ron Howard would make a pool movie, he is maybe the only guy who tries to get it right. Even as you say, it fits the context of the movie since they are hustling an idiot, it would still be more fun for the movie goer to see something that would even dazzle the players in the audience. I think I remember Mike Sigel saying he had problems with COM. He had all kinds of cool ideas they could have used but they were not interested, Hollywood has it's own idea of reality, hell, they even change history if it doesn't suit them.

Cane
06-13-2005, 10:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Are you saying they had someone betting a car on that tired old shot that anyone who ever played pool would know? <hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn, Yeah, and that movie actually cost me a lot of free Absolut and Grapefruit since it came out. It's a tired old trick shot, but one a lot of bar players have never seen. Now, I've changed to a slide draw shot when I'm thirsty! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif They haven't put that one in a movie YET! Oh, and you'd be surprised how many people can't make another tired old shot... the CB and OB on a line between the center pockets and 3 rail bank it back to the near pocket... can't do WEI on this tired old computer, but I'm sure you know which shot I'm talking about.

Later,
Bob

SPetty
06-13-2005, 11:02 AM
All right, already! We get it! You guys are old! Okay, you've been playing pool since before paper was invented and there's nothing you haven't seen. Okay, we got it!

But... some of us have never heard of that tired old trick shot and have never seen that tired old trick shot and have never tried that tired old shot. This thread is for us.

I tried it the way Tom described and got it on my second try. Couldn't do it again in 20. But I guess I'm not as old and experienced and knowledgeable as you guys. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Cane
06-13-2005, 11:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> All right, already! We get it! You guys are old! Okay, you've been playing pool since before paper was invented and there's nothing you haven't seen. <hr /></blockquote>

Spetty, Now they DID have Papyrus when I started playing... that's what the scribe noted my drills on! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Looking forward to Chili Cookoff! Maybe my nose will stop peeling by then! Billie, btw, doesn't look so pasty anymore. She actually CAN tan! LOL

Later,
Bob

Popcorn
06-13-2005, 11:13 AM
One of the best original shots I've seen was on the Twilight zone. It was a double kiss two rail kick at the beginning of the show. I am sure anyone who saw it remembers it.

Rackin_Zack
06-13-2005, 11:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Are you saying they had someone betting a car on that tired old shot that anyone who ever played pool would know? <hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn, Yeah, and that movie actually cost me a lot of free Absolut and Grapefruit since it came out. It's a tired old trick shot, but one a lot of bar players have never seen. Now, I've changed to a slide draw shot when I'm thirsty! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif They haven't put that one in a movie YET! Oh, and you'd be surprised how many people can't make another tired old shot... the CB and OB on a line between the center pockets and 3 rail bank it back to the near pocket... can't do WEI on this tired old computer, but I'm sure you know which shot I'm talking about.

Later,
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

Perhaps this shot:

http://www.missouri.edu/~richardsonz/trick.jpg

Cane
06-13-2005, 11:48 AM
Zack,
Thank you! That's the shot I was trying to describe. Hey, a lot of people think of it as ONLY a trick shot, but I've used it a couple of times in a game situtation. Probably would more often if I could get anyone around here to play bank pool.

Where did you get that pool table graphic? I like that.

Later,
Bob

Rackin_Zack
06-13-2005, 11:54 AM
Anytime Cane! I've used the shot once or twice in 8 ball under similar circumstances as what is diagramed...lol. I got the table from the link I have to the wei table:

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/

I set up the shot on the table and then copy/paste/edited it in MS Paint.

Popcorn
06-13-2005, 12:16 PM
The point was, the tech advisor should have more to offer then a shot that can be found in the trick shot section of any pool book written in the last 50 years. It is silly and not what I would expect in a movie about pool, maybe in some tv sitcom, but not a movie about pool. It is the pool equivalent of "Heads I win, tails you lose" it is that silly a shot. A little entertaining but maybe it's just me, It's a pool movie and should be better done.

Jal
06-13-2005, 01:22 PM
ThunderDuck asked:
[ QUOTE ]
So you aim towards the right at the opposite side pocket , but the cue ball goes left and hits the left side rail... is this due to the 8 ball throwing the cue ball left? <hr /></blockquote>


This is an example of an interference shot. When the cueball is frozen to an object ball and you aim toward the object ball, the cueball's path can be predicted with enough accuracy to make knowing the general principle quite useful.

If you draw a line passing through the centers of the cueball and object ball, and then a line from a target perpendicular to this line, and then aim at the midpoint of this second line, the cueball will take off toward the target (say a ball sitting near a pocket, or in this case, the point halfway between the third diamond and the side pocket on the opposite rail).

It's been presented in Robert Byrne's books as "Jewett's Interference System". Here is a link to a discussion of it.

http://tinyurl.com/c9fma

When I've experimented with it, I found that I have to aim a little further than the midpoint of the line from the target, but it seems to produce remarkably consistent results.

Jim

Steve Lipsky
06-13-2005, 01:48 PM
Popcorn, had you seen the movie, it would all make sense. The whole thing is an insult to pool. I would never ask someone to watch it from beginning to end, but if you have the opportunity to see the "climax" (maybe the last 10 minutes), I highly recommend it. You would not believe stupidity on this level was greenlighted by anyone in the movie industry, let alone a pool consultant.

This is the same movie that has one of the champion players carrying around his cue in a guitar case. No mention of a cute backstory on it, they just have a professional player carrying his cue in a guitar case.

The tired old trick shot you mention is one of the lesser things you'll take issue with, lol.

- Steve

BoroNut
06-13-2005, 04:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>I tried it the way Tom described and got it on my second try. Couldn't do it again in 20. But I guess I'm not as old and experienced and knowledgeable as you guys. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Nil demonstrandum as we used to say up North to reinforce Londoner's provincial stereotyping. I suspect you are not alone. Watching Dr Dave's demonstration NV A.13 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/new/NVA-13.htm) I couldn't help noticing that, unlike you, he appears to have the benefit of a trained 8 ball. It originally lounges distractedly against the cushion, but no sooner is the cue ball addressed than it immediately stubs it's fag out and snaps to attention.

Come to think of it, the lighting for the set up is clearly a summer's morning. But immediately before impact it changes to the sort of ambience suggestive of snow on the window ledge. If you take special notice you will see his wedding ring disappear as months of tan fade instantly from his handsome legs, indicating a change in domestic circumstances, no doubt due to the time spent locked in the basement trying to make the 8 ball. The more anal may also have spotted the cloth changing from Simonis 760 to 860. So come clean Dave. How old were you when you eventually got it to go in?

Boro Nut

Thunderduck
06-13-2005, 08:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> ThunderDuck asked:
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
So you aim towards the right at the opposite side pocket , but the cue ball goes left and hits the left side rail... is this due to the 8 ball throwing the cue ball left? <hr /></blockquote>


This is an example of an interference shot. When the cueball is frozen to an object ball and you aim toward the object ball, the cueball's path can be predicted with enough accuracy to make knowing the general principle quite useful.

If you draw a line passing through the centers of the cueball and object ball, and then a line from a target perpendicular to this line, and then aim at the midpoint of this second line, the cueball will take off toward the target (say a ball sitting near a pocket, or in this case, the point halfway between the third diamond and the side pocket on the opposite rail).

It's been presented in Robert Byrne's books as "Jewett's Interference System". Here is a link to a discussion of it.

http://tinyurl.com/c9fma

When I've experimented with it, I found that I have to aim a little further than the midpoint of the line from the target, but it seems to produce remarkably consistent results.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

THANKS! You were the only one who actually attempted to explain the physics behind this trick shot. I made this shot about 5 times out of 20 today, I agree its not hard. Maybe its very old and unoriginal, but for me this shot is just COOL AS HELL!

Tduck

Jal
06-13-2005, 09:58 PM
Tduck said:

[ QUOTE ]
THANKS! You were the only one who actually attempted to explain the physics behind this trick shot. I made this shot about 5 times out of 20 today, I agree its not hard. Maybe its very old and unoriginal, but for me this shot is just COOL AS HELL!<hr /></blockquote>

I think it's a great shot too (Hey, Bach is still worth listening to!). I've never tried this particular application of the interference system and somehow doubt that I could make 5 of 20, but we'll see.

Only Bob Jewett, Dr. Dave and a few others could explain the physics behind it in full detail, since it involves the simultaneous collision of three bodies. But the predicted path of the cueball is fairly easy to understand and can be of considerable use in games like 14.1.

Jim

Popcorn
06-14-2005, 07:03 AM
I like to shoot that shot like this
START(
%A_0D2%BB8\5%CC1\3%DB7\4%EC0[9%FC0\1%GB8\0%H\7R9%IB4\1%JB4\1
%KB2\5%L[7D3%Mq0D6%NB6\3%OC1[6%P`5I8%W[1Z3%XY4C3%[V7Z9%\^3C4
%]Y2D2%^V3Z9
)END
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/

Popcorn
06-14-2005, 07:34 AM
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/
I never won much money on trick shots but I have won money when guys tried to hustle me on shots. I won $400., (That's all the guy had or I would have won more), on this shot a guy was trying to hustle me on. You know the shot , it is the spit shot. He would set it up and give me like three shots to make it for like $10.00 bets. After I had made it a few times, (Of course he was letting me make the shot), he began wanting to up the bet and when I offered to bet $500. as though I had figured out something about the shot and he went for it betting all he had. Even though he didn't wet the balls I made it anyway, a little trick I had learned from Marcel Camp.
START(
%AN7O5%BK1Z9%CJ7O4%DL8N2%EL2[0%FK7P1%GK7N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK8M6
%KJ7P7%LJ7N2%MK7Q3%NJ5Z0%OJ7M0%PF7T6%Wp8[0%XN4[0
)END

Another is the impossible bank that guys set all the time. I can make it almost every shot after two or three practice tries and they will often give you 10 tries or more to make it. I have met guys that thought it couldn't be made at all and will really go off on it. The best part is you beat them when they are trying to hustle you.
START(
%AN7O5%BM3P6%CJ7O4%DL8N2%Ea5E0%FK7P1%GK7N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK8M6
%KJ7P7%LJ7N2%MK7Q3%NJ8R0%OJ7M0%Pg8O6%W\0Y9%X`6C3
)END

For some who have not seen the shot, the 5 ball is one ball away from the rail at the diamond and the cue ball on the spot. You just have to bank the ball in the side and no double kisses, it has to go straight in.

dr_dave
06-14-2005, 09:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BoroNut:</font><hr>Watching Dr Dave's demonstration NV A.13 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/new/NVA-13.htm) I couldn't help noticing that, unlike you, he appears to have the benefit of a trained 8 ball. It originally lounges distractedly against the cushion, but no sooner is the cue ball addressed than it immediately stubs it's fag out and snaps to attention.

Come to think of it, the lighting for the set up is clearly a summer's morning. But immediately before impact it changes to the sort of ambience suggestive of snow on the window ledge. If you take special notice you will see his wedding ring disappear as months of tan fade instantly from his handsome legs, indicating a change in domestic circumstances, no doubt due to the time spent locked in the basement trying to make the 8 ball. The more anal may also have spotted the cloth changing from Simonis 760 to 860. So come clean Dave. How old were you when you eventually got it to go in?<hr /></blockquote>
It doesn't take much of an eye to see that I edited the video between my narration and the successful execution of the shot. If I wanted to be devious, I could have set up the 8-ball in the same orientation for each attempt so the viewer couldn't tell if I missed or not. But I saw no reason to hide that I am human, with room for improvement.

If you must know, it took me four attempts to get the shot in the final video (after practicing it a few times before the narration).

PS: Thanks for the compliment on my handsome legs. I'm a runner. That's why I have sexy legs.

Drop1
06-14-2005, 07:31 PM
Forget anything I said. Dr.Dave is right. I made that shot first try at the V.F.W. tonight. Look at October issue of Billard Digest,page 38. The speed needs to be a little faster for me. Center ball no english aim left of pocket other side of table. Do not aim for center of pocket.

Popcorn
06-14-2005, 08:16 PM
There is no rule where to aim. You do a quick trial and error on the table you are doing the shot on. You shoot it different on an 8 footer then a 9 footer and depending on where you place the balls against the rails. I often place the balls only about an inch from the pocket and shoot it hard. It looks cool for the shot to go so fast the people don't hardly know what happened.

sliprock
06-14-2005, 09:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>
[ I had figured out something about the shot and he went for it betting all he had. Even though he didn't wet the balls I made it anyway, a little trick I had learned from Marcel Camp. <hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn, I'm familiar with the shot, but didn't know there was a way to outrun the spit. What would it take for you to let go of the secret. I know a man that would bet real high.

dr_dave
06-15-2005, 08:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> There is no rule where to aim. You do a quick trial and error on the table you are doing the shot on. You shoot it different on an 8 footer then a 9 footer and depending on where you place the balls against the rails. I often place the balls only about an inch from the pocket and shoot it hard. It looks cool for the shot to go so fast the people don't hardly know what happened. <hr /></blockquote>
Drop1,

Popcorn is right; the aim depends on many factors including table conditions, ball cleanliness, ball set-up, and shot speed. By the way, like all of my Billiards Digest articles, the Poolhall Junkies article is posted on my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/) for viewing and printing.

Regards,
Dave