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View Full Version : "the right thing to do" and robles' fundraiser



06-12-2002, 02:43 AM
i have a question about the tony robles fund raiser.

based on what i've heard up till now.

1...that there will be a fund raising exhibition between tony and ginky to raise money for tony's expenses to attend the cardiff qualifiers.

2...that ginky has been invited to cardiff, AND WILL BE PAYING HIS OWN EXPENSES.

if i am wrong about this, please correct me.

3...question,,,why should ginky help raise money for tony so that tony can go for free, and ginky NOT get compensated for his expenses?

is this the right thing to do???????????

cheesemouse
06-12-2002, 05:10 AM
abcer,
If what you say is true it is more an issue of Tonys likability than ethics. From what the people who deal with Tony say he is a great guy and player, just the type of person who should be put forward in our sport. As far as Ginky goes he is also one of the good guys.

Retardo
06-12-2002, 06:30 AM
Ethics? You cant be serious!

Is it ethical that Efren Reyes has Puyat sending him free to Cardiff and Troy Frank doesn't. Of course it is, each organization decides to sponsor who they want.

Ginky has been an active pro for the last 5 years and has all his sponsors inline and I doubt that he is paying his expenses. Dont I see his his picture in Billiards Digest almost every month for some ad? If Im wrong about that, why dont you have a fundraiser for Ginky?

Tony on the other hand hasn't played on the tour since Camel so he has no sponsors and needs the help right now. It is admirable that some New Yorkers have elected to chip in and send him.

cuechick
06-12-2002, 08:39 AM
You are right, Ginky has sponsors, Ginky is also invited to the WC already. Tony has been making his living teaching (do I need to explain further how UN-lucrative that is?). He also has family that he supports...believe me, there are plenty of worthy canidates who might want to try there hand at Qualifying, including the player Tony is traveling with.
I believe as do many that Tony is in a league of his own, someone who deserved an invitation and has done much for the pool community in NYC.
If we choose to give a little back (and believe me, this is not much)and a pro like Ginky is willing to contribute, then IMO the only ethical question would be "how could we not?"

Rich R.
06-12-2002, 08:53 AM
I think the fact that Ginky is participating in this fund raiser shows a lot about his character. Ginky is helping a man, get to and participate in a tournament, and that man has a very good chance of finishing much higher in the money than himself. That shows a lot of character.
Rich R.~~~tapping my cue stick for Ginky.

Nostroke
06-12-2002, 09:58 AM
It is HIS POOLROOM that is doing this!! HIS FRIENDS!!

How can friends helping a friend be questionable or unethical??

If Ginky really is paying his own way, i dont think too many people know that but that is a separate issue. Still I would think that Ginky must be ok or he wouldnt be playing in the exhibition.

People see this as an opportunity for Tony and dont want him to miss it as he is playing so well. Ginky on the other hand has been off his game lately.

06-12-2002, 10:25 AM
that is not a seperate issue. and i know tony's friends are
behind the fundraiser.

the issue IS....when two people are going to an event, and both
are paying their expenses(as far as anyone knows), is it
proper to have one participate in a benefit for the other to go
free,,,,and the one not get compensated for and still have to
pay his own way.

you are right. ginky has been playing rather sub-par lately.
so how does anyone know if there are backers in his corner,
or is everyone just assuming this.

06-12-2002, 10:27 AM
tony is a VERY nice guy, and everyone likes him. and i am well
aware of his situation. this is no slam on TR.

but because ginky has been fairly inactive for a while
now,,,and you all know the rumors,,,i DON'T know ginky's
CURRENT situation. and as ginky has been rather
incommunicado for a long while now,,, unless you are privey
to his personnal and professional goings on, you don't know
his situation either. do you know for a fact that ginky is
sponsored? he has told you this, has he. you have talked to his
"backers".

ginky might also be doing the right thing and not putting up a
stink because he likes tony.

just questions.

06-12-2002, 10:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: abcer:</font><hr> that is not a seperate issue. and i know tony's friends are behind the fundraiser.

the issue IS....when two people are going to an event, and both are paying their expenses(as far as anyone knows), is it proper to have one participate in a benefit for the other to go free,,,,and the one not get compensated for and still have to pay his own way.

you are right. ginky has been playing rather sub-par lately. so how does anyone know if there are backers in his corner, or is everyone just assuming this. <hr></blockquote>

Boy are you a killjoy.

The last time I noticed George San Souci was well past the age of consent. Because of this, we assume he is capable of thinking for himself, making decisions, acting, taking responsibility for his actions, etc. He is an adult.

Given this fact, how could there be an ethical issue with his 'choosing' to participate in an event for Tony Robles? The appropriate emphasis here is on the word, 'choosing.' Even if he did not get any money from his sponsors, San Souci still 'chose' to participate in a fundraiser for Tony Robles. He is not being debited anything, any time or any money that he himself did not choose to transfer to this event. Nor is he being forced to participate in this fundraiser. If you know otherwise, that is, if you know of any arm-twisting here, please provide evidence of this coercion.

Geez...

Steve

06-12-2002, 10:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Retardo:</font><hr> Ethics? You cant be serious!

Is it ethical that Efren Reyes has Puyat sending him free to Cardiff and Troy Frank doesn't. Of course it is, each organization decides to sponsor who they want.


that is a totally different circumstance than this. what an odd example to bring up. read my other replies.

06-12-2002, 10:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: abcer:</font><hr> that is not a seperate issue. and i know tony's friends are behind the fundraiser.

the issue IS....when two people are going to an event, and both are paying their expenses(as far as anyone knows), is it proper to have one participate in a benefit for the other to go free,,,,and the one not get compensated for and still have to pay his own way.

you are right. ginky has been playing rather sub-par lately.
so how does anyone know if there are backers in his corner,
or is everyone just assuming this. <hr></blockquote>

Boy are you a killjoy...

The last time I looked, George SanSouci was well past the age of consent. Because of this, we assume he is capable of thinking for himself, making decisions, acting, taking responsibility for his actions, etc. He is an adult, not a child.

Given this fact, how could there be an ethical issue with his 'choosing' to participate in an event benefiting Tony Robles? The appropriate emphasis here should be on the word, 'choosing.' Even if he did not receive any money from his sponsors, SanSouci still 'chose' to participate in a fundraiser for Tony Robles. He will not be debited anything, any time or any money that he himself did not choose to transfer to this event. That would be a contribution SanSouci is making to Tony Robles. Nor is SanSouci being forced to participate in this fundraiser as far as I know. If you have heard or seen otherwise, that is, if you know of any arm-twisting, please provide evidence of this coercion. If not, why are you demanding that others account for and thus defend their generosity by pointing to a difficult-to-glean ethical issue?

Geez...

Steve

06-12-2002, 10:42 AM
tony is one of the good guyzs. and the issue is not about his likability. he is well loved and that is why the fundraiser is happening. the issue is,,,IF what i suppose is true,,,,,ginky might be doing this out the kindness of his heart,,,but if he IS paying his own way, shouldn't the room be a little thankful and foot part of his expenses as well? or are we all doing this for tony and ignoring ginky.

06-12-2002, 10:44 AM
I do not know Ginky or Tony at all butfrom what I understand about this I find it very very admirable that ginky would do this to help tony out

06-12-2002, 10:57 AM
no, no.

the "ethics" is not in ginky CHOOSING to participate. that IS a seperate issue. he chooses to participate,,,so be it.

the "ETHICS" rests on the shoulders of those behind the fundraiser. and i know they are tony's friends and want to give THEIR friend a hand. but do they ignore ginky's generousity and not throw him a bone. ginky might be amenable but grumbling inside. i don't know. but neither does anyone else. and neither does any know if ginky is already backed.

if you were behind the fundaiser, and you found out ginky was NOT backed, would you not feel a little guilty about not helping ginky? irregardless of whether or not ginky is a big boy and can make his own decisions, what do YOU do.

06-12-2002, 11:04 AM
i think "ethics" was the wrong word to use, and made my remark sound more critical than intended. let's try "doing the right thing".

so i changed the original subject line from "ethics" to "the right thing to do"/ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

06-12-2002, 11:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: abcer:</font><hr>

if you were behind the fundaiser, and you found out ginky was NOT backed, would you not feel a little guilty about not helping ginky? irregardless of whether or not ginky is a big boy and can make his own decisions, what do YOU do. <hr></blockquote>

No, I most certianly would not feel guilty if George SanSouci lacked backers but participated in an event I planned for another player. To feel guilty would require that I had done something wrong by running a fund raiser for that player, say Tony Robles. I fail to see what I, as an organizer of such an event, would need to feel guilty about.

Steve

cuechick
06-12-2002, 12:15 PM
You seem to be basing your argument on the idea that these two player are going to the same event. THEY ARE NOT!!! The fund raiser is to send Tony to BRISTOL for the QUALIFERS!!!
NOT THE SAME EVENT!
If Tony had recieved an invite his sponsor would have gotten him there. He did not feel right about asking his sponser to send him to a qualifer. Also note, that Tony did not ask for ANY of this, it was toatlly his firends and home room's idea!I just don't see that this is the moral question you seem to want to debate, Even if Ginky did not have sponsorship (WHICH HE DOES, AND YES I KNOW FOR A FACT)

So Mr. ABC'er (whic I am guessing is id-ing yourself with Amsterdam Billiards, do I detect some personal motivation to sabatage here? Maybe that's the 'ethical' question we need to ask?)

06-12-2002, 12:22 PM
",,,,, To feel guilty would require that I had done something wrong by running a fund raiser ,,,,,,"

Steve
________

i hope no one feels that i think there is a wrong being perpetuated here. this is all very right. however, is the right thing being done for ginky as a thank you. if $2000 is the goal and $3000 is raised, then what of the extra $1000.

bigalerickson
06-12-2002, 01:14 PM
I would some would go to reimburse the pool hall expenses, and probably some of it would go to the rest of his trip, as 2000 seems like it would barely cover it. Then again, im living out on the west coast and have no idea what I am tlaking about....I'll just be quiet now.

06-12-2002, 02:09 PM
Yes, I think there has been a wrong done here. You are the wrong doer!

What you seem to miss in all of this is the fact that you are slandering Corner Billiards and the friends of Tony Robles who are tying to help him get to the World Championships.

You are accomplishing this by claiming that they ought to help George SanSouci as well as Tony Robles. You intimated that SanSouci might lack sponsorship help due to a recent slump. You implied that Corner Billiards and the organizers were somehow neglecting George SanSouci even though he had promised donated his time. However, he has backers, according to Cuechick. Thus, you did not even base your claims on fact, but on witless conjecture.

Still, your false claims would have been ethically dubious even if true. Corner Billiards and the organizers would have had to change the event in order to raise money for George SanSouci. Donaters have a right to know who they are donating money to. They may wish to donate money to one player but not the other. Thus, the event would have to be publicized as raising money for both players. To use ethical claims to coerce the events organizers into giving money to SanSouci could, therefore, actually undermine the event or raise unnecessary ethical questions about the final allocation of the monies raised by the event.

You owe Corner Billiards and the organizers an apology, in my opinion.


Steve

06-12-2002, 02:43 PM
you're certainly getting yourself into a tizzy. i can see your hair stiffening into a pack of slim jims.

i have already explained myself, stating this is not meant to cast aspersions. but clearly, you have decided otherwise and are following a different thread altogether.

as for cuechick, unless she was told by ginky or she is his fiancee, she DOESN'T know his situation.

however, you are right about people donating having every right to know where the money goes to.

and as for apologizing, shirley you jest.

06-12-2002, 02:53 PM
I have a question for abcer. Are you insane? Are you stupid? Or do you just lack comprehension of that which you yourself wrote? Ginky has been INVITED to attend Cardiff. Tony must go for a week or more and attend QUALIFIERS. If he doesn't win the first, he must go to a second, and so forth. There are plenty of male Pro players in the Tri-State area to choose from, so why did Ginky volunteer his time? I'll bet there are even Pros who are traveling to Cardiff without benefit of any sponsorship! Where's their money coming from? (Gambling) If you want ethical dilemmas, may I suggest you look elsewhere? Because it's very clear to all here that you don't have a clue as to what an ethical issue actually is. Better yet, why don't you use your time more productively, and find out who is not getting sponsor money and hold a fundraiser for them?

06-12-2002, 03:03 PM
well, no. there is no sabatoge attempt here. it takes more than idle gossip to do that.

but y'all have said what you have to say, and i mine. let's just say that i HAD heard things, which in turn generated this post.

nuff said....end of discussion

06-12-2002, 03:16 PM
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Lorri:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; I have a question for abcer. Are you insane? Are you stupid? &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

last time i checked with my psychiatrist, he said take two pills and we'll see. and i just got my SAT scores back.....1295

however i DO spend a lot of time at the pool room so i can't be all THAT bright./ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

06-12-2002, 03:26 PM
Ahh, clarity comes to the scene, and none too soon:

'last time i checked with my psychiatrist, he said take two pills and we'll see. and i just got my SAT scores back.....1295'

A friggin high schooler. I suspected as much.

'and as for apologizing, shirley you jest.'

Nope.

Steve

06-12-2002, 05:45 PM
I think the question here is whether Ginky was asked to do this event or if he was 'volunteered'. I dunno. Anyone?

06-12-2002, 06:05 PM
Ginky is NOT going to the qualifiers as he has been invited.
Why then,should Ginky recieve any money?
I think Ginky is playing a match against Tony as a friend.
Forget about Ginky the exhibition could be against any top local player,this is a fundraiser to send Tony to the qualifiers.

06-12-2002, 07:48 PM
This has been an incredibly revealing thread that abcer started, mostly due to what I perceive to be some extremely defensive responses from certain people likely associated with Corner Billiards.

First of all, I play primarily at ABC, but have also spent many great times down at Corner's. The people there, for the most part, are all terrific folks, very enthusiatic about the sport and generally a good crowd filled with good people. So let's get this one fact out in the open: the thread that abcer started, IMO, was clearly NOT intended as a slam, slag or flame at anyone involved with CB. Therefore, the responses and the tone of some of the responses to abcer, which intimated things like "sabotage" or "slander" and then degenerated into personal attacks regarding IQ, etc, are all WAY OUTTA LINE. abcer has stated repeatedly his/her intentions in starting this thread. So to turn this discussion into a ABC vs. CB thing is childish, counter-productive and completely unnecessary. Pool has enough problems without moronic, internecine battles over nothing. 'Nuff said...

Back to the TOPIC at hand...IMO, abcer's intention was to raise a legitimate question, in light of the following facts:

- TR is absolutely one of the real GOOD GUYS in pool;
- TR has recently been playing possibly the best pool of his life;
- TR is NOT independently wealthy and is a devout family man with heavy responsibilities;
- TR has no official sponsorship of any kind (to most people's knowledge);
- the idea of a charity event sponsored by friends of TR and CB is a GREAT THING;

abcer, if one follows the thread, was IMO just trying to ask a question: if one has a charity event pitting TR against GS, with the goal being to raise funds to help TR get to Cardiff, why not make it a double-bill and come up with some plan to help GS out a bit as well? Granted, GS has an invite to the tournament whereas TR has to get over the pond to play in qualifiers, but an invite DOES NOT mean that GS' costs are in any way covered (unless beyond any entry fees if applicable). GS still needs to pay for his own transport, hotel and living expenses for the time he is in Cardiff, just like TR, and unless anyone REALLY KNOWS better, it is my understanding that GS is NOT independently wealthy either. Then, someone raised the issue of GS being sponsored and showing up in ads in pool mags. Great. Terrific. But does anyone really know HOW MUCH GS actually gets? I think we all know that money and pool (Jeanette Lee aside) are mutually exclusive. If prize money for winners of tournaments are so low, just how much can someone make for being a rep for a pool accessories company. Not much I would venture.

So where do we stand? Back to the original question: since we all agree that the fundraiser is a GOOD thing, then why not make it TWICE as good a deed and help the other guy out a bit too? The split does not have to be even, but the gesture is what would be significant. Especially in light of these following facts:

- I know for a fact that GS WAS NOT the first choice for this...Mika Immonen was and to top it off, there are rumours circulating that MI was VOLUNTEERED to do this (he was spoken for) without anyone actually having spoken to him personally...GS only came up as an afterthought...a second-choice...and there are additional rumours flying around that indicate that GS' name was used on fliers promoting the event BEFORE anyone ever actually spoke to him;
- GS is the only other viable big-name draw in NYC available that people would actually want to see compete with TR...anyone really think people would wanna turn out for something that Frankie Hernandez is involved in? Not to mention the fact that FH would probably demand at least equal money for his participation;
- GS is also one of the GOOD GUYS, though those who know him realize that he is far from peak form, that he's been going through some tough personal times career wise and may in fact have lost some of the "fire in his belly";
- GS has also been close friends with TR and certainly may feel some DUTY to volunteer his time and name to help out. Again, abcer's posts simply ask why GS' good deed should go unrewarded, if only in some token fashion at the very least.

The fundraiser is a great idea. Why not make it even better (a little more equitable) so that BOTH TR and GS can get something out of it?

06-12-2002, 08:05 PM
Hi everyone, this is George SanSouci. I've been alerted to this thread by a few friends, and would like to clear a few issues. First, I need to let everyone know that I was told today (by the organizers of the event) that I was no longer needed. The exhibition will still happen, but without me.
The only other thing I want to mention is that flyers were printed, in promotion of this event without my knowledge. I was then contacted by a few of the organizers but told them I was unable to go. I had tickets to the US Open Golf Finals on Long Island, given to me as an early Birthday gift from my future mother in-law. But after some discussion and thought I decided to help Tony out and give up the tickets. I know he would have done the same for me.
Today I received a voice mail message from the organizers telling me that I was no longer needed. I'm now out of the tickets, and not at all happy about the events over the last 24 hours. The organizers are also not returning any of my phone calls.
I also want to say that Tony had nothing to do with any of this. My issues are with the organizers.
George SanSouci

06-12-2002, 08:27 PM
I know of this situation briefly- as a pool enthusiast, a personal acquaintce of both Tony &amp; Ginky, and I fellow New Yorker, I would be happy to support such an event if it was to assist the both of them in their expenses. I know for a fact that other than Ginky's invitation to this event, he has no sponsorship and has not placed in any of the events he has played in lately- as did Tony. Needless to say- I will not be attending nor supporting this event.

06-12-2002, 08:32 PM
Uhm..... Why are you posting from the same computer as the supposed poster known as Ginky. We can only assume that it wasn't really GS in the first post or that GS is posting answers to his own questions. Either way your credibility is already shot.

06-12-2002, 09:03 PM
do you think that Ginky has no friends???

06-12-2002, 09:38 PM
Some people don't know this, but those of us in the industry understand that an IP address CANNOT identify an individual computer. Proxy IPs are used by most ISPs, and anyone that uses that ISP will come from the same IP address as it appears here. Given the fact that both ginky and the poster you speak of both live in New York, I dont find it hard to believe at all that they might have the same IP address. All they have to do is use the same ISP for dialup or cable modem service..

06-12-2002, 09:41 PM
This is very sad. I don't think Ginky has anything to do with this but all this crying and begging is not making him look too good. If he knows who started this thread, he should pummel him briskly.

Chris Cass
06-12-2002, 10:19 PM
I say, who cares? Anyone willing to help another with a leg up in this sport still deserves appreciation. It's not a easy industry and the organizers aren't exactly on the up and up.

I still think it was a noble thing to do. I wish the best to both. Mostly Ginky, for trying to help someone out. People are always looking for an angle. Well, get this. The angle is, showing a little kindness from one NY'er to another NY'er. I think GS is the nutz. If I had the tickets to the open. I would send him one. I unfortunatly only know a caddy to one of the pros.

On the other hand, I'd have to send one to Cheese, Voodoo and Kato. What the heck, everyone! We'd have a CCB golf outing. Couldn't you hear us now? Hey look, he hit it with too much high right. Woah, checkout the back hand english. LOL

Regards,

C.C.~~thinks all NY'ers are tight....(close for those who aren't with it)

06-12-2002, 10:56 PM
Okay, pool guy, you say that abcer was just trying to raise the question of a double bill in your opinion. Why then would the word ethics Ever come into play? in my opinion, abcer was just trying to stir the pot, and his subsequent posts would seem to support that opinion.
Ohyeah, abcer, before I forget, 1340 ten years out of high school when I took them, perfect 800 on the verbal. Any questions?

06-13-2002, 12:30 AM
Does it matter that i got 167 on my LSAT, 730 on my GMAT, and 1480 on my SAT and am attending a Ivy league school for my masters?

But in all seriousness (those scores are real by the way -- too bad i suck in pool), abcer got screwed up thinking.

Whose business is it to question the intention, or action of another person for a third party. Abcer has no involvemen with Ginky or Tony so why go on and on about the ethics? What ethics? Ginky wants to help the guy out. Who cares if hes doign some backdoor deal, who cares if its because they are good friends, who cares if they are gay lovers? I mean who cares, and whose business is it but theirs.

From what I can gather, Tony is a really nice guy, and it is his character that has garnered the support he has now. So why can't some pple just respect that and move on with their lives as opposed to casting doubt to the intentions of a person who he probably has no close relationship with.

06-13-2002, 12:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris Cass:</font><hr> I say, who cares? Anyone willing to help another with a leg up in this sport still deserves appreciation. It's not a easy industry and the organizers aren't exactly on the up and up.

I still think it was a noble thing to do. I wish the best to both. Mostly Ginky, for trying to help someone out. People are always looking for an angle. Well, get this. The angle is, showing a little kindness from one NY'er to another NY'er. I think GS is the nutz. If I had the tickets to the open. I would send him one. I unfortunatly only know a caddy to one of the pros.

On the other hand, I'd have to send one to Cheese, Voodoo and Kato. What the heck, everyone! We'd have a CCB golf outing. Couldn't you hear us now? Hey look, he hit it with too much high right. Woah, checkout the back hand english. LOL

Regards,

C.C.~~thinks all NY'ers are tight....(close for those who aren't with it) <hr></blockquote>

yep. what i'm getting out of all this is that the pool scene is alive and well in n.y.c. and that they ain't fraid to post here.

kewl.

dan

06-13-2002, 01:14 AM
cuechick: Do us all a favor and get off this "ethics" issue. abcer has already clearly stated that his use of the word "ethics" was too strong. Why are you continuing to harp on this? Please read my post further on in the thread to get an idea of where I am coming from.

Also, your tone in this thread has gotten progessively belligerent. And note that I refer to you directly in my post regarding this whole non-sensicial, counter-productive and completely unnecessary ABC vs. Corner thing. Take a break from the conspiracy theory thing, READ ALL THE POSTS and let's have an honest, civil discussion here. Or do you intend next to devolve this issue to one based around sexism as you did recently in your guest column?

Chill out and let's all speak frankly and without tossing unwarranted barbs.

NYCPoolGuy

06-13-2002, 01:24 AM
Lorri: You clearly need to step back and re-read THE ENTIRE THREAD. abcer plainly ADMITTED that his use of the word "ethics" was wrong and inappropriate. He/she took it back and went to the trouble to CHANGE THE THREAD TITLE. Like cuechick, you need to get off the semantic band-wagon. abcer made an error with regards to his/her choice of words and publicly admitted it, yet 3 or 4 levels deeper into the thread you are still stuck on it. Need I say more?

And what is this nonsense with the scholastic exam scores? WHO THE HELL CARES? What relevance do they have to this discussion about the TR fundraiser? If you read the ENTIRE thread and take a moment to reflect HONESTLY and DISPASSIONATELY, I think you will find that it was NOT abcer who degenerated this discussion into a childish flame war and idiotic game of "my di*k is bigger than yours".

I know I will regret asking this, but you opened the door: not much of a math whiz were you?

06-13-2002, 01:47 AM
Quote Lorrie:
Ohyeah, abcer, before I forget, 1340 ten years out of high school when I took them, perfect 800 on the verbal. Any questions?



*Sigh* this is what I hate about this place sometimes.... some people here think that just because they are more educated it means their opinions must have more weight.. I beat just as many guys smarter than me as I lose to dumber ones in arguements and in pool

06-13-2002, 02:25 AM
SZ, you are taking an innocent post wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too seriously. i reply to cuechick's remark about my sanity and intelligence with the MOST obvious of sarcasms, and now i have you believing that i'm a high schooler.

you and everyone who has flamed me find your own tangent to support your arguments and ramble on.

i'll slow down for you next time.

06-13-2002, 02:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Lorri:</font><hr> ,,, forget, 1340 ten years out of high school when I took them, perfect 800 on the verbal. Any questions? <hr></blockquote>

yeah,,,all that brain power didn't help you following threads, did it.

scroll up!!,,,to where i said "amended subject line".

ever since i started this thread, all youz guyz can see is red. and all i've been doing is answering your fiery retorts. YOU ALL,,,,have been stirring this thread.

06-13-2002, 02:54 AM
the "ethics" word was a poor choice and i so mentioned early on,,,,if you scroll up.

it is NOT that i care if there's a backdoor deal or not. who gives a sh*t, i agree. i am, at this point, tired of repeating myself, so just reread the whole thread. it has ONLY been about "doing the right thing" FOR SOMEONE,(GINKY), WHO WAS DOING THE RIGHT THING FOR TONY.

06-13-2002, 03:51 AM
well, SZ. here's the rub and why you and i don't see eye to eye.....while there is no wrong, i feel there is a right thing to do.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: StephenZ:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: :&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;


No, I most certianly would not feel guilty if George SanSouci lacked backers but participated in an event I planned for another player. To feel guilty would require that I had done something wrong by running a fund raiser for that player, say Tony Robles. I fail to see what I, as an organizer of such an event, would need to feel guilty about.
Steve <hr></blockquote>

and since you, lorri, and cuechick were so liberal in your interpretation of what i said, afford me this one chance to liberally interpret what you just posted.

basically, you're saying, "thanks for your time ginky, but tough sh*t if you have sponsorship or not. this is OUR party for tony. i did nuttin' wrong, and i can live with that."

Grady
06-13-2002, 07:31 AM
Why is it anybody's business how Ginky and Tony get to the UK? They are both wonderful players and class acts and deserve to go, even if Tony has to qualify.
In fact it is costing me $4,000 to go to Bristol and try to qualify. This after just returning from Germany but I'm not complaining. I look forward to the trip.But if I did have a nice, respectable way to help me pay for the trip, like Ginky and Tony are doing, I would expect it to be well received.

06-13-2002, 07:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Whatever:</font><hr> This is very sad. I don't think Ginky has anything to do with this but all this crying and begging is not making him look too good. If he knows who started this thread, he should pummel him briskly. <hr></blockquote>

Right. I wonder if George SanSouci hasn't gained a few enemies along the way who are now taking the revenge for whatever it is that vexes them. Clearly, they are not doing him or Tony Robles any favors. Ethics and doing the right thing...

Steve

MikeM
06-13-2002, 08:51 AM
I know you amended your post title, but what is the difference. Doesn't ethical mean doing the right thing? The point of your post is the same. If Tony's friends want to organize an event for his benefit, that's great. If GS wants to volunteer his time to help, that's great too? End of story. If GS's friends want to do the same for him, fine. Who injected the question of GS possibly benefitting from the event as well? As far as I can tell it was you abcer. Although you mention that you "heard things" but you never elaborated. Did someone else raise concerns over GS not getting anything from it? Did GS have second thoughts and have you raise this question on the board? By not revealing your sources you leave the issue open for conjecture.

So, who said what and how is this "not doing the right thing" (unethical)?

MM

ted harris
06-13-2002, 11:47 AM
Rich,
Your right about the Ginkster! He has a lot of class. This is the same Ginkster that started a New York City disaster fund after the WTC attack at the US Open, donated HIS $3500- cue, and raised over $6500- for the firefighters families in 2 days. The Ginkster gets my vote. And I hope they raise enough to cover all of Tony's expenses, as he is one of the great one's too.

06-13-2002, 12:42 PM
mike,,,,in my haste to post originally, i used the word "ethics". it was easier, and shorter than "do the right thing". i amended that long ago.

"ethics", on second thought, implies a right and wrong way of things. this, i felt was too harsh and judgemental because there is no wrong here. the fundraiser is a good thing. "do the right thing" is a suggestion of help.

as for the "vague" things that i heard....reread this whole thread really really really REALLY CAREFULLY. in there you will find that i have been finally vindicated. do a little sleuthing and add two plus two. you will find it out. that is all i will say.

06-13-2002, 12:56 PM
ginky knows me well, and may eventually find out. he'll know i was thinking about him.

as for enemies, he doesn't care what anyone on this thread thinks. we're just pool sycophants. making enemies and poolroom rumor is part of being in pool.

the only person he cares about is tony, and you can rest assured they've phoned and talked all about this. this was never about him versus tony. in any case, i have been vindicated.

06-13-2002, 02:47 PM
It sounds like and open and honest way to raise funds. In Texas we call a stick up at a 7-11 a fundraiser. Sounds like New Yorkers have some civility in their approach to raising money for a worthy cause. Next time you put your money in a jar at the cashregister for some charity, think about how legit the cause maybe and who is getting the bulk of the money raised. You would be suprised.

MikeM
06-13-2002, 03:55 PM
I was never very good at math (only 650 on the SAT) so why don't you spell it out for me?

MM

06-13-2002, 05:45 PM
You can buy tickets to the U.S. Open golf tournament on Ebay.The vip trophy tickets are $90 face value and you can still get them for close to that price.
Check it out.

06-13-2002, 05:56 PM
Pool Guy,
Ha Ha!! Yup, I suck at Math!! Not because I can't do it, but because I won't do it. It's a long and extremely personal story, so don't ask. Suffice it to say it was tragic and criminal.

06-13-2002, 06:29 PM
By the way Pool Guy, I'm not the one who started the SAT crap, and my d*ck is purely metaphorical, but when challenged, I am fully capable of getting into a pissing match. Not only that, but when I replied to abcer, it was several hours after I'd read the thread for the first time. As you know, the board automatically starts you at the first new post in the thread, so no, I did not see that abcer had attempted to back off of his original position. I have reread the entire thread, and it seems to me that abcer was absolutely stuck on the idea of wrongdoing on someone's part, and was determined to make sure we all knew it. It also seems to me that abcer only backed down from his position when he realized that there wasn't a single opinion weighing in in his favor. Now, I really hate it when folks who freely admit that they don't know all the facts in a situation decide that others are wrong for trying to do something nice for someone. How does abcer know that Ginky wasn't going to be compensated for his time Saturday? That's usually what happens when a celebrity shows up for a "charity" event, you know. They are given an appearance fee, which is discounted from their norm, but nonetheless, they are paid. Many wealthy celebs will donate this fee back to the charity, but their agents won't allow them to appear for free, because A: the agent loses his comission on it and B: it lowers the celeb's "value" ie. "Well you did XYZ for free, why not us?"
Oh, I also caught the part where abcer stated, "that's it, end of discussion." HMMM, I guess not. That's usually a statement people who are backed into a corner they can't get out of make, but I don't think that's the case here. I think abcer really wanted to end the discussion, perhaps because he realized that his thread was turning a good deed for a worthy man into something ugly and sordid? I think it's a real shame when folks can't get together out of the kindness of their hearts and do something really worthwhile without others crying foul.
If Ginky's situation were the same as Tony's, I'll bet his friends would have ridden to his rescue too, and if not, perhaps he needs new friends. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong!

06-13-2002, 06:37 PM
Downtown,
Get your facts straight. I wasn't the one who chose to use SAT scores as a means of imparting weight to my opinions, abcer was. I simply let him know that I was playing on the same field. My opinions are heavy enough without the board's knowledge of my SATs, IQ, or any other numerical rating of intelligence. One can get a very good grasp of who's who by reading their posts, and determining how logical and well structured their arguments and sentences are. I try to overlook spelling (which is a big pet peeve of mine) because I know sometimes when I'm typing out a passionate argument, I tend to get a little sloppy too.

06-13-2002, 06:54 PM
Rich,

Couldn't agree with you more....very well said.

Zach

06-13-2002, 06:56 PM
I rather think not, abcer. This thread should never have been started in the first place. Backing off of your original assertion does not change the fact that you've "chosen" to take a good deed and turn it into something ugly. If you can't grasp that, may I suggest that you scroll up! And yes, I can follow the threads quite nicely, Thank You. I just don't think you can. Do you not grasp the mountain of difference between being invited to an event and having to qualify for it? Frankly, I'm astounded that you've taken this thing as far as you have. Now, I don't know Tony, I'm not going to the event (scheduling conflict), and I have no personal feelings about the whole thing one way or another, but I really do think that you've taken this and perverted it into something it never should have been. And that's the real tragedy here.

jjinfla
06-13-2002, 08:30 PM
I am beginning to believe that the terrorists have dumped something in the water and you all have been drinking it and it is clouding your thinking. It seems people can not even run a fundraiser now without being criticized. Anyway Mike over on AZBilliards.com has a very good interview with Tony Robles. Read it, have a few cocktails, and chill. Jake

9 Ball Girl
06-13-2002, 08:38 PM
As a close friend of Tony's, I can tell you guys that he is very touched and grateful that this is all being done for him (IMO I think it's also well deserved).

But at this point, I think it just all boils down to this: If you want to support this whole thing, then go to Corner Billiards on Saturday and have fun. That would be cool.

If for some reason you don't want to support it because of whatever "ethics" (there's that word again) or "doing the right/wrong thing" is, however "delicate" the situation, then that would be cool too. Everyone's entitled to his/her own opinion.

That said, I'll see you all on Saturday!

06-13-2002, 11:04 PM
Lorri,

As reluctant as I am to post here, I feel that I cannot read your responses in silence. Your replies to abcer's clear and forthright post come across with much hostility and defensiveness. A person comfortable with what they have done (as well as with themselves) would have simply stated which of abcer's points they did not agree with and why. Instead, you insulted his intelligence, his sanity, etc. with such vehemence that one must reread your post several times just to pick out which points you really disagree with. (Please pardon my ending a sentence with a preposition.) What's more, instead of focusing on the points he or she made, you decided to attack him or her for making them. Very sad. In fact, shame on you! Can you really be this angry? Does all it take to make you respond with so much hatred, a mere question of your thoughtfulness as to whether money is being appropriated justly? This thread is far beyond whether abcer's points are valid or not. It has become a case study in some people's unwillingness to be criticized in the slightest bit, and the mob ready at all costs to chastise the questioner.

P.S. If I may, I think a few words are in order regarding your signature quotation. Has it occurred to you that perhaps your ability to exposit clearly leaves much to be desired? And why do you feel the need to suggest that others cannot comprehend at least as well as you? But alas, I am certain that these remarks will be ignored; only someone who suffers from extreme narcissism would associate their names with such trite nonsense.

06-13-2002, 11:33 PM
I'd also like to remind everyone (before the slew of posts start piling in) that the very question that was stated in the original post has since become moot. Ginky will not be participating so we don't need to discuss what might or might not be appropriate compensation.

Jude M. Rosenstock

06-13-2002, 11:51 PM
Just for everyone's information, I saw him tonight and he confirmed that it was his post. Anyone who needs verbal confirmation can call me in case you're wondering if this is really me posting this, which is understandable.

Fran

06-14-2002, 01:52 AM
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Lorri:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;,,,,, Do you not grasp the mountain of difference between being invited to an event and having to qualify for it? &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

ginky's invite, and tony qualifying are the same in that THEY BOTH HAVE TO PAY EXPENSES. do you think that ginky is getting a free ride because he was invited?????? do you get it now? tell me when you do as i'm tired of explaining this to you. poolguy already posted the point, so obviously you're not following the thread as well as you'd like to think.

anyway, ginky already knows who i am, and i am sure tony will soon. they understand what i meant and that is all i care about.

06-14-2002, 01:55 AM
just post your email. this thread is dead and i'd rather leave it behind.

06-14-2002, 02:40 AM
Lorri: Fine. Thanks for at least admitting that you didn't get a chance to read the thread from the beginning. I cannot force you to change your mind nor can I dispute your own personal interpretation of abcer's intentions. And I will freely admit that I was incorrect in stating that it was you who started the SAT thing...in actuality, it was abcer who brought it up. But to my reading, abcer was clearly meaning to be sarcastic with the SAT thing and I was shocked that so many people have such lousy senses of humour.

Anyway, to answer some of your questions. Since this thread began, I have discovered who abcer is. You don't have to believe me any more than you believe him, but the truth of the matter is that abcer is indeed a close personal friend of GS and that the intention of abcer's original post was simply to posit the idea, in his opinion, GS should be compensated in some way for his participation in a TR fundraiser. The reality of abcer's relationship to GS is such that abcer did indeed have information directly from GS regarding this whole fiasco. This is the truth so take it as you will.

This point, as Jude Rosenstock so correctly points out below, is now moot as the fundraiser has been changed, GS has been "fired" and the event will now likely be a "play the pro" thing against TR.

I grow weary of this entire thread. This is the first and will probably be the last time time I will ever post here. I am disturbed to discover that so many people with whom I share a common love with exhibit such petty insecurities and are so quick to temper. This is exacerbated by the fact that I likely know many of the people involved and it makes me sad to discover how intolerant, humourless and judgmental they have demonstrated themselves to be. Throwing words like "slander" and "sabotage" around with any level of seriousness in a forum like this saps the joy out of posting and make having civilized discussions an impossibility.

Finally, what really depresses me is this: we have lost a chance to see some potentially high quality pool featuring two old friends, participating in an event for an admittedly noble cause. Everyone could have been a winner: TR, GS and yes, even NYC pool fans. Instead, this thread and the reaction to it has likely had a direct impact on the decision to "fire" GS from the event. Worse yet, according to information I have received from reliable sources very close to both TR and GS, this whole fiasco has apparently caused the decade-plus friendship between these two old friends and rivals to become severely strained. What a pity...

Regretfully,
NYCPoolGuy

Vagabond
06-14-2002, 08:55 AM
Hi Grady,
U coud have planned to go to Spain for Qualifier.If I recall correctly,few years ago ART WIGGINS from Atlanta was ``in `` thru Spain qualifiers.( it is much easier ) cheers
Vagabond

06-14-2002, 09:16 AM
Quote lorrie:

One can get a very good grasp of who's who by reading their posts



Yes lorrie I think I have a very good grip of who and what you are now by reading your posts.

Nostroke
06-14-2002, 09:16 AM
Yes but in Bristol, there are qualifiers each day for a week and you can play in at least 5 of them from what i gather. Spain im sure would have only one

MikeM
06-14-2002, 09:36 AM
Thanks for the offer but, I'll let this go with one more comment. I think this debate would have been more civil if you had been more open with your first post. More along the lines of, "It's nice that Tony's friends are doing this for him. I'm a friend of Ginky's and want you to know he is unsponsored and could use some support too." Even after you're editing, the post reads as an indictment against the organizers for not offering Ginky money. That obviously rubbed some people the wrong way. Seems as if the organizers made some mistakes too and this whole thread had a negative impact on the event. I hope that both TR and GS can raise the money to go to Cardiff and that they both play well.

MM

06-14-2002, 09:40 AM
You explained it very well to her but you may have to also comprehend it for her.

06-14-2002, 09:54 AM
Spain ain't got any! The fellow was talking about the 1999 WPA World Championships in Alicante, Spain, when there were several spots for qualifiers in the days before the main event.

Alfie
06-14-2002, 12:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Lorri,

As reluctant as I am to post here, I feel that I cannot read your responses in silence. Your replies to abcer's clear and forthright post come across with much hostility and defensiveness. A person comfortable with what they have done (as well as with themselves) would have simply stated which of abcer's points they did not agree with and why. Instead, you insulted his intelligence, his sanity, etc. with such vehemence that one must reread your post several times just to pick out which points you really disagree with. (Please pardon my ending a sentence with a preposition.) What's more, instead of focusing on the points he or she made, you decided to attack him or her for making them. Very sad. In fact, shame on you! Can you really be this angry? Does all it take to make you respond with so much hatred, a mere question of your thoughtfulness as to whether money is being appropriated justly? This thread is far beyond whether abcer's points are valid or not. It has become a case study in some people's unwillingness to be criticized in the slightest bit, and the mob ready at all costs to chastise the questioner.

P.S. If I may, I think a few words are in order regarding your signature quotation. Has it occurred to you that perhaps your ability to exposit clearly leaves much to be desired? And why do you feel the need to suggest that others cannot comprehend at least as well as you? But alas, I am certain that these remarks will be ignored; only someone who suffers from extreme narcissism would associate their names with such trite nonsense. <hr></blockquote>
My goodness!

06-14-2002, 12:33 PM
i know i said my part in the discussion is ended, but it seems things have quieted down a bit,,,,so......

actually, poolguy's interpretation is a teeny off as well. my post WAS NEVER offered up as a suggestion that compensation SHOULD be given ginky. my intended intonation was,,,,"wouldn't it be nice of corner to help out ginky as well, since he has to pay his own way as well(he still pays even though he was invited)".

as to your assertion that i harped on this issue through the entire thread,,,not true......after my initial post, i spent the rest of the thread defending myself against you, cuechick, and stephenz, and anyone else that followed your lead replies, since you decided to attack me rather than move the thread in a more constructive direction.

however, that's the rub with message boards, isn't it. if this discussion were at a table, this would never have happened, as my intent would have been clear.

which is why i amended my subject line(my intention was not clear),,,,,and which is why you all really should learn to read message boards with more balance instead of flying off the handle.

Alfie
06-14-2002, 12:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jude Rosenstock:</font><hr> I'd also like to remind everyone (before the slew of posts start piling in) that the very question that was stated in the original post has since become moot. Ginky will not be participating so we don't need to discuss what might or might not be appropriate compensation.

Jude M. Rosenstock <hr></blockquote>
But I like a good discussion based on hypotheticals.

We could use player A and player B as labels, and say that player A is invited to play in some prestigious tournament in India...

06-14-2002, 12:47 PM
YOU ARE NOT BRIGHT AT ALL.
TONY AND GINKY ARE BEST FRIENDS. AND THAT IS WHAT FRIENDS DO.HELP OUT ONE ANOTHER.
BUT I C THAT U R MAKING A LOT OUT HERE.

06-14-2002, 01:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: abcer:</font><hr> i know i said my part in the discussion is ended, but it seems things have quieted down a bit,,,,so......

<hr></blockquote>

So leave it go. Why stir up trouble by posting self-justifications when past troubles are dying a slow death.

Steve

06-14-2002, 01:51 PM
well,,,no.

hey, maybe this can be a thread within a thread:)

this thread was occuring concomitant to the ginky "firing". THAT issue had been festering on its own and remains an issue between G and corner.

as for the impact of this thread. nobody cares. everyone loves TR. you overestimate ccb. this issue is rather trite. partly my fault for bringing it up(just helping george),,,,,,, and would have gone TOTALLY unnoticed but for a few people seeing red who wanted to lash back.

AND,,,as for how i should have posted. ya never see all the ramifications until they happen.

06-14-2002, 03:29 PM
what a read this has been! seems to me abcer was trying to FINALLY end this thread on a fairly friendly note until YOU chimmed in. why don't YOU let it go!!!

06-14-2002, 03:30 PM
You wrote: "this thread was occuring concomitant to the ginky "firing". THAT issue had been festering on its own and remains an issue between G and corner."

To correct that point: The issue is between Ginky and the event organizers, which does not include Corner. Corner doesn't deserve to get a bad rap for something they're not responsible for. Corner was asked if it would be ok to use their room for the event. The management decided to donate the tables and food. All other decisions regarding the event were not made by Corner. They had nothing to do with choosing or firing any players. It is an independently organized event.

Fran

06-14-2002, 05:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: DEADSTROK32:</font><hr> YOU ARE NOT BRIGHT AT ALL.
TONY AND GINKY ARE BEST FRIENDS. AND THAT IS WHAT FRIENDS DO.HELP OUT ONE ANOTHER.
BUT I C THAT U R MAKING A LOT OUT HERE. <hr></blockquote>

hey brainless,,,are you having a tough time with "see", "you, and "are"?

ted harris
06-14-2002, 05:26 PM
... and periods, semicolons, spaces, and CAPS LOCK!

06-14-2002, 05:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Lorri,

As reluctant as I am to post here, I feel that I cannot read your responses in silence. Your replies to abcer's clear and forthright post come across with much hostility and defensiveness. A person comfortable with what they have done (as well as with themselves) would have simply stated which of abcer's points they did not agree with and why. Instead, you insulted his intelligence, his sanity, etc. with such vehemence that one must reread your post several times just to pick out which points you really disagree with. (Please pardon my ending a sentence with a preposition.) What's more, instead of focusing on the points he or she made, you decided to attack him or her for making them. Very sad. In fact, shame on you! Can you really be this angry? Does all it take to make you respond with so much hatred, a mere question of your thoughtfulness as to whether money is being appropriated justly? This thread is far beyond whether abcer's points are valid or not. It has become a case study in some people's unwillingness to be criticized in the slightest bit, and the mob ready at all costs to chastise the questioner.

P.S. If I may, I think a few words are in order regarding your signature quotation. Has it occurred to you that perhaps your ability to exposit clearly leaves much to be desired? And why do you feel the need to suggest that others cannot comprehend at least as well as you? But alas, I am certain that these remarks will be ignored; only someone who suffers from extreme narcissism would associate their names with such trite nonsense. <hr></blockquote>



Here, here. That is the best posting I have seen on here in 2 months. All of the rest of the narcissists on here should also take note !!!!! WELL SAID!!!!

06-14-2002, 06:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Lorri,

As reluctant as I am to post here, I feel that I cannot read your responses in silence. Your replies to abcer's clear and forthright post come across with much hostility and defensiveness. A person comfortable with what they have done (as well as with themselves) would have simply stated which of abcer's points they did not agree with and why. Instead, you insulted his intelligence, his sanity, etc. with such vehemence that one must reread your post several times just to pick out which points you really disagree with. (Please pardon my ending a sentence with a preposition.) What's more, instead of focusing on the points he or she made, you decided to attack him or her for making them. Very sad. In fact, shame on you! Can you really be this angry? Does all it take to make you respond with so much hatred, a mere question of your thoughtfulness as to whether money is being appropriated justly? This thread is far beyond whether abcer's points are valid or not. It has become a case study in some people's unwillingness to be criticized in the slightest bit, and the mob ready at all costs to chastise the questioner.

P.S. If I may, I think a few words are in order regarding your signature quotation. Has it occurred to you that perhaps your ability to exposit clearly leaves much to be desired? And why do you feel the need to suggest that others cannot comprehend at least as well as you? But alas, I am certain that these remarks will be ignored; only someone who suffers from extreme narcissism would associate their names with such trite nonsense. <hr></blockquote>
Anonymous, (God, I love these guys)
Yes, I'm sure Ed Koch, from whom the quote originated, would totally agree with you. And there's even a couple of folks on this board who attribute it to the Texas Lege, albeit a bit ammended. And frankly, I'm tired of taking the heat for being the bad guy around here! The real nonsense is the morons who take the quote as a personal affront to their intelligence! Why is it that I can't use a quote that amuses me without idiots being insulted by it, but Dr D can use 'Lead, Follow, or get out of My way" and not hear it from all the lazy people in the world? Oh Yeah, they're too lazy to answer, right?
As far as my reply to abcer is concerned, I stayed out of the fray until it became clear to me that abcer was not going to listen to the gentler opinions he elicited. Not only that, but he really didn't get what he was arguing about! He still doesn't! Others have been as strong in their condemnation of abcer, but I guess they can be forgiven, since they don't have a tag line that insulted you, right? I am not angry, nor do I feel criticized. Why? Because I have nothing to do with this fundraiser! I'm not even going! I stand by my opinions, both that abcer does NOT understand the difference between having to qualify for an event and having been invited to one, and that he had no business starting the thread in the first place. If he wanted to question why (or even if, for that matter) Ginky wasn't recieving some assistance as well as Tony, it would be pretty easy to write. Look through the thread, you'll see lots of examples. Instead, abcer chose to raise all sorts of non-existant issues, and incite a riot. But it's all my fault, I know. I'm the idiot here, whatever. I'm sure you'll all take great joy in quoting me out of context here, so fire away. I'm not the one who took a lovely and thoughtful gesture and turned it into pure $hit. Have a nice day.

Vagabond
06-14-2002, 08:06 PM
Hi Luke,

I stand corrected.Thank u.

Vagabond

06-14-2002, 08:30 PM
Lorri,

Against my better judgment, I will reveal my identity (partially, at least). My name is William, though I’m not sure why this matters so much to you. Since I can hardly do better than Alfie has done already to dispel the prejudice against anonymous posters, I will speak no more about it.

Your response leaves me wondering where to start. You say, “As far as my reply to abcer is concerned, I stayed out of the fray until it became clear to me that abcer was not going to listen to the gentler opinions he elicited.” Even ignoring your warped use of the word “gentler,” I can’t see how, “Are you insane? Are you stupid? Or do you just lack comprehension of that which you yourself wrote?” is in any way appropriate to abcer’s initial post. Moreover, your first post came nearly five hours after abcer amended his original post, removing the ethics connotation. Yet you still harped angrily about an ethical issue in that and later posts. I can’t see how your first post is defensible. You appeared to me to be jumping on the bandwagon of other angry posts instead of considering what abcer actually wrote. At the very least, I commend abcer for considering the other posters’ views and then acknowledging his mistaken use of the word “ethics.”

Moving on, you say, “I stand by my opinions, both that abcer does NOT understand the difference between having to qualify for an event and having been invited to one, and that he had no business starting the thread in the first place.” I can’t see where, in any of abcer’s posts, the suggestion that abcer “does NOT understand the difference between having to qualify for an event and having been invited to one.” It is clear to me, as it also is to NYCPoolGuy, that the point is: (1) they both play pool at the highest level, (2) they are both going to play in a tournament at roughly the same time (not to mention that there’s even a stronger relationship between the two events), and (3) they both can use monetary assistance, so why not help one when he is helping to help the other. How can you not see this? I think the original post would still be valid if Ginky was not even playing in a pool tournament, but rather, say, in the three-cussion World Cup. (I think Alfie alluded to this, or at any rate, thought it would still be interesting to discuss.) About the “no business starting the thread in the first place,” he or she certainly has no less business than you do in responding, since you “have nothing to do with fundraiser!” and are “not even going!” Also, please let me know which “non-existant issues” abcer “raised” and exactly how he “chose to … raise a riot.” To make things a little easier, here is abcer’s initial post:

i have a question about the tony robles fund raiser.

based on what i've heard up till now.

1...that there will be a fund raising exhibition between tony and ginky to raise money for tony's expenses to attend the cardiff qualifiers.

2...that ginky has been invited to cardiff, AND WILL BE PAYING HIS OWN EXPENSES.

if i am wrong about this, please correct me.

3...question,,,why should ginky help raise money for tony so that tony can go for free, and ginky NOT get compensated for his expenses?

is this the right thing to do???????????

Finally, as to your defense of that silly quote, if it amuses you, by all means continue to associate your name with it. Though I liked Koch as a mayor, he may very well be the most narcissistic of men. If you don’t mind educating, err, explaining to me, though, I’d like to know the context of his quote. That is, to what situation was he referring? But, this quote had little to do with why I responded to you. It is that you seem far more intelligent than the other posters. It is a pity that you also project yourself as high and mighty. And the quote does little refute that.

Respectfully,
William

jjinfla
06-14-2002, 08:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Grady:</font><hr> Why is it anybody's business how Ginky and Tony get to the UK? They are both wonderful players and class acts and deserve to go, even if Tony has to qualify.
But if I did have a nice, respectable way to help me pay for the trip, like Ginky and Tony are doing, I would expect it to be well received. <hr></blockquote>

It's probably just plain old jealousy raising its ugly head.
Jake

06-14-2002, 10:16 PM
William,
I would first like to thank you for your interest in this whole debacle, and also for continuing in a sensible and civilized manner. I'm afraid that after more years than I care to admit to, I still have a tendency to repay a punch in the arm with a hand grenade! /ccboard/images/icons/frown.gifI would like you to know that I actually have nothing against the many anonymous posters on this board, excepting, of course, those who come only to insult and harass the 'locals'. I don't recall asking for your identity, though I could be wrong.
Yes, my first (and admittedly inappropriate) post did come later than the ammendment, however I had read the initial post by abcer, debated replying, and decided not to. As more folks replied, I returned to the post from elsewhere on the board. I don't know how the board works for unregistered users, but for me, once I leave a post, or even a session, when I reopen a thread the board automatically takes me to the newest response I have not yet read. Thus, I was going on memory of the initial post, and probably didn't even notice the ammendment. My use of gentler was meant to describe the replies of the other good folks on the board, not mine. (I'm trying to address your concerns point by point here, so please bear with me.) Okay, I'm having a little trouble following you here: 2. They are both going to play in an event at roughly the same time (not to mention that there's even a stronger relationship between the two events) The part I'm having trouble following is in the parentheses, I don't understand what you mean by this. But your second point is why I think you and abcer are not really understanding what this fundraiser is all about. Ginky and Tony are NOT going to the same event. At the risk of being redundant, and boring the hell out of the folks who do know, Tony is, at this moment, NOT playing in Cardiff. In fact, even if his friends raise enough money to get him to Europe, he still Might Not Play at Cardiff! Tony is going to play in a tournament where a bunch of other hopefuls who are playing at the top of their games, and who also haven't been invited to play at Cardiff are playing. The only way he will play is to win that tournament (also known as a qualifier). I know that there are quite a few of these qualifiers scheduled, you can access the schedule at the site Luke Riches has listed and linked on this board. I don't really have enough interest in the whole thing to look and see if Tony can make more than one, in case he gets a lousy break or a run of bad luck in the first. My guess however, with the event at Cardiff only a week or two away, is that the number of events he can attend will be limited.
Okay, next point. 3, they could both use monetary assistance. Yes, I can see this, and I can even agree with it. In fact, although much of it was tongue in cheek, I did suggest that abcer help Ginky and the other unsponsored Pros out, Now, I'll admit that I did make a bit of a joke out of it, but abcer was certainly free to take that ball and run with it. As an aside here, may I respectfully point out that the idea of Tony going to Cardiff and the subsequent fundraiser were Cuechick's idea, and that the fundraiser was a last ditch attempt to get him qualified after a lobbying effort conducted by Cuechick and Harold Acosta (and abbetted by the board members, both anonymous and named) to have him invited failed? Now, I don't run in the same circles as Cuechick, but I do know her, and I think it's wonderful that she would want to help out Her Friend who shoots in Her Home Room. I also have no doubt that if Ginky were her friend, and she found out that he was having trouble getting the funds necessary to attend Cardiff, she would have done the same for him.
Okay, what's left...Oh, about having no business starting the thread. I think what I actually said was that he had no business starting the thread in the manner he did, that is to say implying some wrongdoing by others, or unfairness to the participants. But if that's not what I said, May I ammend it? C'mon, a little levity never hurt a situation like this one, and I think I've been very sincere in my intentions here. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif My response to abcer was based solely on two facts. One, that I truly do not believe he understood the situation as I've outlined it above, and two, that he was intentionally or inadvertantly tarnishing what should have been a lovely gesture by some caring and good hearted people. My guess is inadvertantly, but I am a little disturbed by the whole, no no no, it should be for BOTH of them thing. But I'm sure that's just me. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif The non existant issues? There really was no right or wrong thing to do issue here. This was a private event held for a personal friend. The sort of thing that anyone's friends could have done at any time, for any reason. The amount of money collected is almost guaranteed not to cover the whole trip, and even if there was some small amount leftover, do we really feel that anyone would ask for their money back? For that matter, all donations could very easily be tallied before the end of the event, and if there were a surplus, the contributors could have been asked how they would like to see it directed. I know there were a couple of other things I took umbrage at, but I can't figure out how to save this and return to the thread. (I tried minimizing the window, but that took me to my Desktop)
Okay, last but not least, my quote. The remark was made at a daily press conference, (sorry, I don't recall the issue) when, after countless minutes of badgering by a reporter who was asking the same (already answered) question over and over Hizzhonor finally snapped, "Look, I can only explain the situation to you! I cannot comprehend it for you!" I'm glad you realize it's silly, if only everyone else did too, all would be well. Still, I am getting a bit bored of it, and am entertaining ideas for a new one. I no longer enjoy the fuss it continues to cause. And lastly, I am deeply saddened that you find me 'high and mighty'. For that I apologize. When you work in a pool hall and have a Grad School vocabulary, you tend to want to exercise it where it can be understood and appreciated (here) (and if you don't use it you lose it). Believe me, anyone who knows me personally, and even some of the folks who have taken the time to write me on this board can tell you I'm the most down to earth person you could want to find. So I apologize for the ridiculously long reply William, but I did want you to know EXACTLY where I'm coming from. If you would like to continue this conversation privately, it takes only a minute to register, and you are not asked for any personal info. You are also not obligated to post under your registered name. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to explain myself to you! /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif
Lorri

MikeM
06-14-2002, 10:33 PM
Lorri,
You're hands MUST be tired! My eyes sure are.

MM

06-14-2002, 10:35 PM
I'm SO sorry! If William had registered, I would have replied privately!! /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif How you doin' Mike?

MikeM
06-14-2002, 10:41 PM
I'm tired. 60 people were layed (laid?) off today in my office. I, fortunately, was not one of them. I spent most of the day in two pool halls and a bar helping the less fortunate drown their sorrows. I've been through many of these days in my career, but this one somehow seemed tougher. Watching friends cleaning out their desks and being escorted out of the building sucks.

MM

06-14-2002, 10:43 PM
Kind of puts all of this crap in perspective, doesn't it? I'm sorry Mike. I'm glad for you, but I know how you feel. I used to be a real person too. ( meaning I had a job that contributed to the real world)

06-15-2002, 12:54 AM
Lorri I think its hurtful how every one is degrading you on here.. I will not stoop to that manner of talk in any way.. so I am going to move on to more importanat things like.... How big are your breasts??

06-15-2002, 08:17 PM
Big enough to make most men and a few women stare, although those who actually make it up to my eyes find them pretty absorbing too. Oh yeah, I don't wear a bra either, and yes, I pass the pencil test. Enjoy your mental images Downtown!

06-15-2002, 09:47 PM
As an addicted daily CCB regular for 3-4 years I've been rather busy the last number of weeks and posted very little on the board - rarely even checking the board for interesting threads. I logged on tonight and saw all these posts and figured this must be an interesting thread.

After skimming through what must have been close to 200 posts on this thread it's clear to me why I no longer waste my time on this board. How could such a positive event get so twisted , blown out of proportion and result in expressions of such hostility by this board? What has happened to this board or have I just changed? Is there anything of substance or value remaining on this board to bother sticking around for? I notice very few of the names of the old time regular posters on this board any more, and fear they must have experienced the same thing as I and have not stuck around.

I'm sure I'll continue to occasionally lurk for some meaningful posts and post myself from time to time - if I feel I have anything of value or interest to add. For now though, the priority and satisfaction of spending time on the ccb (as I used to do daily) is just not there. That feeling has sadly been re-enforced by the hour I've just wasted reading and responding to this thread. - Chris in NC

06-16-2002, 01:24 AM
atta boy chris....... but... how big are your breasts?
lol

Rip
06-16-2002, 09:02 AM
Chris, it's similar to wasting time reading lengthy threads dealing with "should I condone statutory rape in my place of business?" and "should I condone a 12 year old child gambling?". Those threads pushed the envelope of tolerance for many CCB regulars. Interesting that you deem this thread "a waste of your time" and then feel the need to scold those who read your post. Regards, Rip~~trying to remain tolerant even if I disagree or find a thread boring.

06-16-2002, 07:57 PM
Rip, both of those threads stimulated a number of insightful responses and dialogue which (believe it or not) were extremely helpful to me at that time. I realize that introducing real life poolroom issues like this may have been too uncomfortable and threatening for some - who obviously couldn't handle it without getting offended and personal. It seems lately that just about anything one wishes to share on this board that may go beyond the boundaries of pool execution/technique (even with the best of intentions) will be dissected under a microscope for any possible controversial motives. I never imagined I'd get burned out of this board, but I guess I've changed. - Chris in NC

Rip
06-17-2002, 12:13 AM
Point well taken Chris. The CCB community has seen many changes recently. My best to the Dragon and happy Father's Day to you Chris. Rip