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dr_dave
06-14-2005, 10:37 AM
On the links page (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/links.html) of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/), in addition to links to useful resources, I also have links to pool schools. I would like to add other pool schools to the list. People wanting to compare the different "schools" might find a more complete list useful. If you run a school with multiple instructors in a dedicated facility, and if you have a website, please send me the information. I want to add links to "pool schools" only, not to individual instructors with no facilities.

Thanks,
Dr. Dave

Qtec
06-14-2005, 12:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I want to add links to "pool schools" only, not to individual instructors with no facilities. People wanting to compare the different schools might find a more complete list useful.
<hr /></blockquote>

Dave, why would you assume that an individual instructor has no facilities?

Are you now , after one lesson, making judgments on instructors who work alone? Are they not worthy? Does one have to have a school before one has anything to offer?

I heard the at the CueTec school you are told to leave your ego at the door. Its good advice but were you told how to achieve that?
Just wondering.

Q

dr_dave
06-14-2005, 01:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I want to add links to "pool schools" only, not to individual instructors with no facilities.<hr /></blockquote>
Dave, why would you assume that an individual instructor has no facilities?

Are you now, after one lesson, making judgments on instructors who work alone? Are they not worthy? Does one have to have a school before one has anything to offer?
<hr /></blockquote>
Sorry. I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just desire to list multiple-instructor pool schools with facilities on my website. I didn't mean to imply any judgment through this choice. I would imagine that there are probably hundreds (if not thousands) of individual instructors out there with no facilities that could do just as good a job (if not better) than many "pool schools." I just choose not to list individuals on this particular webpage. I do not wish to create a comprehensive list of all instructors in North America. Those types of lists can be found elsewhere.

Again, I am sorry if you were offended,
Dave

dr_dave
06-14-2005, 01:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote from PM to dr_dave:</font><hr>I need to say this because I was offended by your post today. Be careful of the BCA Instructor spell. There are some good instruictors that are BCA certified, but a good 80% of them have absolutely no business teaching the game. I'm not talking about the gentelman you met at Randyg's place. I am talking about 80% of all BCA certified instructors. Personally, I do not need a certification to teach, nor do I need anyone to tell me HOW to teach. My work, and my success speaks volumes. Eliminating individual instructors or non-certified instructors is ridiculous. The BCA instructor program is not in business to make better pool players, they are in business to make money. I will put my instructional methods up against any BCA Super-Advanced Master Jedi instructor at any time. I know what they teach, how they teach it, and I know their success rate. It is not a success rate I would be proud of. Many instructors pay alot of money for their BCA certification. Many of these instructors are not able to make up that cost in student payments. There is no reason for certification anyway, nor has anyone convinced me where it would help me further my career as an instructor. I, like many others have worked very hard developing training methods that work. Just because we don't have the BCA seal of approval doesn't mean that our work is any less valuable than Randy's or Scott's.<hr /></blockquote>
Your point is well taken. I apologize. I agree with you 100% that certification is not necessarily important. I have edited out the "certified" word from my original post. I will also consider adding individual instructors to the list if they come highly recommended.

Again, I meant no disrespect,
Dave

SPetty
06-14-2005, 01:34 PM
Dave, the "P" in "PM" is "Private". Unless this person gave you permission to post their Private Message to you on the public forum, I feel a bit uncomfortable reading it...

FWIW...

dr_dave
06-14-2005, 01:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> Dave, the "P" in "PM" is "Private". Unless this person gave you permission to post their Private Message to you on the public forum, I feel a bit uncomfortable reading it...<hr /></blockquote>
SPetty,

I appreciate your input and concern. I did not ask for permission, but I was careful to make sure there was no incriminating evidence in the message. I believe points of view should be shared on the board. I also believe things should be kept private if that is the desire of the PM'er. If the PM'er wishes, I will remove my message from the thread. But I hope that doesn't happen, because I believe in open and honest debate. I guess that's why I seem to get into trouble so often.

Regards from your friend,
Dave

SPetty
06-14-2005, 02:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I did not ask for permission, but I was careful to make sure there was no incriminating evidence in the message. I believe points of view should be shared on the board. I also believe things should be kept private if that is the desire of the PM'er. If the PM'er wishes, I will remove my message from the thread. But I hope that doesn't happen, because I believe in open and honest debate. <hr /></blockquote>I, myself, am a great fan of open and honest debate. However, I am also quite the believer in keeping private things private. It's obvious the PM'er wanted this to be private, thus the use of PM. If the PM'er had wanted this to be public, he would have posted it publicly.

But... I understand and appreciate your desire to share the PM'er's opinion and your response. One way to do that would be to summarize the content of the PM in your own words and then respond. Like... "I received a PM from someone who was concerned about (blah) for these reasons (blah)"

Of course, everyone here recognizes the writing of the person that sent you that PM, right? And who else misspells gentelmen like that every time? And who else has used the phrase "BCA Super-Advanced Master Jedi instructor" several times before? (Just kidding, but you never know what might be recognizable in someone's writing...)

You're such a troublemaker! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Really, I'm just trying to help. I would have sent this to you via PM, but now I'm afraid to! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

dr_dave
06-14-2005, 02:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>I, myself, am a great fan of open and honest debate. However, I am also quite the believer in keeping private things private. It's obvious the PM'er wanted this to be private, thus the use of PM. If the PM'er had wanted this to be public, he would have posted it publicly.<hr /></blockquote>
Your point is well taken. In fact, I have already written to the PM'er apologizing for not first getting permission. I have also offered to remove the posting immediately.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>Of course, everyone here recognizes the writing of the person that sent you that PM, right? And who else misspells gentelmen like that every time? And who else has used the phrase "BCA Super-Advanced Master Jedi instructor" several times before? (Just kidding, but you never know what might be recognizable in someone's writing...)<hr /></blockquote>
I'm not as experienced on the CCB as you, so none of this was obvious to me. If you think you know who the person is, please send me a PM with your guess. If it is correct, I will probably have the posting removed (unless the original PM'er is OK with having it remain).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>You're such a troublemaker! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Really, I'm just trying to help. I would have sent this to you via PM, but now I'm afraid to! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif<hr /></blockquote>
Very funny. Thanks for making me feel better. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Just kidding. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I hope to see you again soon,
Dave

BigRigTom
06-14-2005, 02:29 PM
Wow!
It sure is easy to get in trouble here.
I have to watch what I say and who I say it too and who I say it about and maybe just not say it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
O Well....I think it will be more fun to just get into trouble and see how that works out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Links to pool schools is a great idea and do the list anyway you like Dr. Dave.
Some one will complain anyway.....but a lot of people will find it useful and the schools will surely benefit from the exposure.

BigRigTom
06-14-2005, 02:32 PM
As an after thought Dr. Dave, I would like to link to that Pool Schools Link Page directly from my site so my customers will benefit from the information....it that ok with you?.... and that IS NOT a private question.....he he /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

dr_dave
06-14-2005, 02:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Wow!
It sure is easy to get in trouble here.
I have to watch what I say and who I say it too and who I say it about and maybe just not say it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
O Well....I think it will be more fun to just get into trouble and see how that works out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Links to pool schools is a great idea and do the list anyway you like Dr. Dave.
Some one will complain anyway.....but a lot of people will find it useful and the schools will surely benefit from the exposure. <hr /></blockquote>
Thank you. I have also received several PMs with similar comments and advice. (Note that I have not quoted any of them here. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
06-14-2005, 03:04 PM
BigRigTom,

Many people have asked me for permission to add links to various parts of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/). Feel free (you or anybody else) to link to that or any other part of my website. In other words, in my view, permission is not required.

In fact, instructors, schools, and others are welcome to link to or use any of the material posted on my website, as long as the materials are not repackaged or used in any for-sale items (e.g., manuals, books, DVDs, etc.), and as long as the source is clearly cited (if not linked directly). I post all of the material on my website so people can use it and benefit from it, not to keep it private. However, I do ask that no part of my book, DVD, or CD-ROM be copied or used directly without my permission.

Regards,
Dr. Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> As an after thought Dr. Dave, I would like to link to that Pool Schools Link Page directly from my site so my customers will benefit from the information....it that ok with you?.... and that IS NOT a private question.....he he /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <hr /></blockquote>

NYSlimButFlabby
06-14-2005, 04:33 PM
Wow, a guy goes to the trouble of putting together easily the best free source of pool info/instruction on the Web and he gets slammed for absolutely nothing. Don't worry Dave, you've got a lot of fans out there. Don't let a couple of nutjobs get in the way.

mike_in_iowa
06-14-2005, 05:44 PM
man, I'll tell you what. That guy dave does get in trouble around here a bunch. Won't be long and he'll be run off as well. I know the CCB'rs are a tight bunch but let's cut the guy some slack. I don't know who he pissed off in a past life, but it seems anytime he posts somebody gets their undies in a bunch.
Just the way I see it.

Mike

DebraLiStarr
06-14-2005, 05:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mike_in_iowa:</font><hr> man, I'll tell you what. That guy dave does get in trouble around here a bunch. Won't be long and he'll be run off as well. I know the CCB'rs are a tight bunch but let's cut the guy some slack. I don't know who he pissed off in a past life, but it seems anytime he posts somebody gets their undies in a bunch.
Just the way I see it.

Mike <hr /></blockquote>

He posted someone's private message in the open forum. He deserves to get slammed for that. For a Doctor you sure do some dumb things sometimes, but I still like ya.

Click here for the truth (http://www.nonstick.com/sounds/daffy_duck/ltdd_185.wav)
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SPetty
06-14-2005, 07:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mike_in_iowa:</font><hr> ...Won't be long and he'll be run off as well. ...anytime he posts somebody gets their undies in a bunch.<hr /></blockquote>Nah, that Dave's here for the long haul. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif And my undies are fine, thanks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Qtec
06-15-2005, 03:26 AM
Dave, no need to apologize, no offence was taken. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Q..........just a 'Little Cajun' humour again.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Billy_Bob
06-15-2005, 06:37 AM
Great idea....

But I might point out that some areas might not have *any* instructors, let alone a school. I saw a post from someone who lives in Hawaii on another forum, and he can't find *any* instructor in his area!

I would suggest listing schools with multiple instructors by state. But if a state does not have a school with multiple instructors, then list individual instructors.

Then players can find their state on the page and at least find someone to go to for instruction. Or perhaps find the closest state to their area where an instructor is located.

So that guy from Hawaii could find a school/instructor in California.

SpiderMan
06-15-2005, 07:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mike_in_iowa:</font><hr> man, I'll tell you what. That guy dave does get in trouble around here a bunch. Won't be long and he'll be run off as well. Mike <hr /></blockquote>

I doubt it. Dave has thicker skin and a more objective outlook than Bob Felcher, for example. Plus, he's made a bunch of friends /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

Billy_Bob
06-15-2005, 07:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mike_in_iowa:</font><hr> ...Won't be long and he'll be run off as well...<hr /></blockquote>

I guess it is like the game of pool... Some people give up easily and quit, others stick with it and are in for the long haul...

"The bravest sight in the world is to see a great man struggling against adversity."
-Seneca (c. 5 B.C.-A.D. c. 65)

pooltchr
06-15-2005, 07:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>
I would suggest listing schools with multiple instructors by state. But if a state does not have a school with multiple instructors, then list individual instructors. <hr /></blockquote>

The list already exists at www.bca-pool.com/play (http://www.bca-pool.com/play) under the instruction catagory. There are two lists of instructors, active and reserve, listed by state with phone numbers to contact them. Granted, it only lists instructors in the BCA instructor program, but that probably covers the large majority of instructors around the country.

Steve

HALHOULE
06-18-2005, 10:11 AM
dr dave contacted me, he wanted to build a robot that would play better than any player. he had been working on the idea for one year and had gotten nowhere. he knew that I was the one to contact about aiming systems. he wanted my systems so that he could build that robot and sell it in japan, as the japanese love to build robots. i turned dr dave down. he cannot build that robot because he does not understand what goes into building aiming systems. he is a college professor, but he is way out of his depth when it comes to building aiming systems that are extremely accurate and consistent.

HALHOULE
06-18-2005, 11:06 AM
DR Dave does not put out the best info and instruction about pool. Try to find where he has an aiming system that makes every kind of a shot there is in pool. Hell, it took him one year to try and make a robot hit one ball into the side pocket. He has not done it yet. there are three guys from Nasa who are pool nuts, and they have not figured out how to devise an aiming system that can make any and all shots on the table. It has been five years and they have not got a clue how to cobble together a system. Neither has your Doctor Dave. Think about it. What has he accomplished and shown you, that will actually put you out of the amateur class of pool. Nada. Randy Goetlicher at his pool school in Dallas, asked me to teach his instructors my systems. I said yes. The same thing happened with Tom Simpson. He flew out to California for my systems. I gave them to him. I challenge Dr.Dave anytime, in the open, to pit any of his aiming systems against any of mine. He cannot, because he has no clue how to build any system, let alone many systems.

AH, that felt good

Hal

Hal

hal

HALHOULE
06-18-2005, 11:11 AM
Do you mean Fancher or Felcher, or is it someone else.

hal

tateuts
06-18-2005, 11:31 AM
If someone needs an aiming system, they can't play.

Chris

Popcorn
06-18-2005, 11:32 AM
I don't think Dr. Dave ever claimed to devise systems. He is 1. researcher and 2. a resource. He has put a lot of information in one place that can be studied or disputed if you like, that is how knowledge is gained, by challenging information and separating out what is true and what is not, what is of value and what may not be so valuable. If you have something on his site you take exception with lets discuss it, this is an open forum of learning. It would also be nice if you would set up a site explaining your system so the same could be done. I am sure there are some on here who would be glad to help you do it if you don't have the knowhow.

Fred Agnir
06-18-2005, 02:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> DR Dave does not put out the best info and instruction about pool. ... I challenge Dr.Dave anytime, in the open, to pit any of his aiming systems against any of mine. He cannot, because he has no clue how to build any system, let alone many systems.
<hr /></blockquote>Maybe there's some background I don't know about, but I didn't think any of Dr. Dave's "resources" on the net covered aiming.

I do think that if he hasn't done so, Dr. Dave could benefit with a visit with Hal Houle.

Fred

HALHOULE
06-18-2005, 04:20 PM
Choose a player who can handle the explanations on the how and the why of the aiming systems, and I will supply the systems.

caedos
06-18-2005, 04:41 PM
Wow! Another blood pumper of a thread!

Here are some of my thoughts on what I've read so far:
- Dave, I love your perspective on things and your overall attitude is extraordinarily upbeat. Please take the initiative and remove the post with the PM, unless you have been given that permission from the person who sent the message. Most of the board will only rember what was done, not what was said. I would hate to see this taint your reputation as the upstanding person you have been thus far. It's a trust and character issue at this point.

-The 'ego bucket' at Cue Tech has been there for many years before I arrived. Occasionally we mention that the student may want to leave their egos out of the learning experience and pick them up on their way out. The bucket is full of egos that were left behind! Mostly we ask that they set as much of their personal game, habits, and preconceived notions aside so that things can be learned with an open mind. When class is over, of course those things are added back to the rest of their pool game. Anything not needed, disagreeable, or otherwise useless that was learned at the training is discarded or set aside until it is needed or the student is ready. None of the instructors at Cue Tech that I am aware of would presume to have a clean answer or suggestion for how ego is set aside for any given person. Sometimes we are simply reduced to asking for parachute mindsets.

-As for aiming systems: everyone needs to start somewhere. Once a system is internalized effectively, it becomes a creative principle that is used to play successfully. At our best, the player sees what needs to be done and does accordingly. What is taught at Cue Tech by Randy G and myself in the current curriculum for aiming has a basis in what we have learned from Hal Houle, and we credit him as the primary influence on the current training.


The hotter the flame, the stronger the steel!

Good discussion,


Carl

Qtec
06-19-2005, 12:51 AM
What is inaccurate about the Ghost ball system?

If aiming was the problem, wouldnt everyone pocket straight shots and 1/2 ball shots all the time.

Q

tsimpson
06-19-2005, 07:38 AM
I've been to Cue-Tech several times. The ego bucket is simply a light-humor prop to make the key point that you can't learn new stuff unless you are sometimes willing to discard or revise some of your old stuff.

As for aiming systems, yes, I have studied at some length with Hal, and I teach his systems. Over the past 9 months, I developed a curriculum that takes players through 3 very different Houle aiming systems. By the end of the day, they know how to execute each system, and how to practice them. If they go off and do the work, one system will emerge as suiting them better. It does take some work though, because the systems involve different ways of seeing, thinking, and doing, and our years of building "good" habits can really make it difficult to believe, accept, and not interfere with what you are seeing - the balls go in the holes, and it looks wrong and smells wrong, and you know it's not possible. But it works anyway.

I'm a many-year newsgroup veteran, but have not been posting for quite a while now. I learned about Hal back in the rec.sport.billiard heyday. One of Hal's students would appear on the forum, ga ga because they were pocketing balls like crazy. They couldn't explain it, but they didn't care. They would say something like "they are only 4 shots" and the technical/physics types would have their heads explode. I stood on the sidelines, thinking there must be something going on here that doesn't make sense from the perspective we typically come from. I was right.

pooltchr
06-19-2005, 09:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> What is inaccurate about the Ghost ball system?

If aiming was the problem, wouldnt everyone pocket straight shots and 1/2 ball shots all the time.

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Ghost ball is more of an aiming principle rather than an aiming system.

Cane
06-19-2005, 12:38 PM
Tom, Good to see you posting here.

For those of you that don't know, Tom and I met a year or so ago at Randy's Pool School.

Now on to aiming. I've heard it said that good players don't use an aiming system. Well, I respectfully have to disagree. While once you've reached a certain level, aiming becomes imbedded in your mind so that it's thoughtless, everyone uses one, whether it's ghost ball, contact point, or SAM or one of Hal Houle's many systems. I taught one of Hal's system to a friend of mine that just couldn't visualize SAM. This system requires a little move that isn't obvious, but that once you know it, you see anyone who does it. A few weeks after he learned the system, he tells me that he saw a pro player on TV using it... he said he kept seeing this little move, especially on thin cut shots, that's unique to this system... now, we aren't talking about a mid ranked pro, we're talking about one of the top guns on the UPA tour.

Personally, I don't think about aiming in 90% of the shots I play on a table. I've played the shots so many times that they're just part of my permanent memory, but once in awhile, there's a really tough cut, or a 2 or 3 rail bank, or any number of shots, that I've either been left by my opponent or that I've left myself through poor position play. When I find myself in these situations, I have the aiming sytems to confidently execute those shots from what I've learned from many sessions with Randy Goettlicher and absolutely countless hours on the telephone with Hal Houle. Hal has taught me so many systems that it boggles the mind. I've walked around the pool table many nights with the telephone stuck in my ear, leaning over, listening to Hal and firing in shots. When I first learned the SAM variation of one of Hal's systems, I though "BULL$#!T!!!!, No way aiming can be this easy!!" Then I learned more from Hal, different perspectives, different approaches. PRICELESS information that anyone who wishes to benefit from can easily learn for the asking from Hal.

Now, is it necessary to know MANY aiming systems? No, absolutely not, for the normal player, but as an instructor, I feel like I have to know as many as I can so I can be sure that I can find one that fits every student that has trouble pocketing balls. If I have a student that has no trouble putting balls in the pockets, then I usually won't even bother teaching them a system because there is already one in place, embedded in their subconcious, whether they realize it or not. However, most players can't pocket balls at an extremely high percentage. For those players SAM and Hal Houle's aiming methods are priceless assets.

Hopefully, soon Hal will be a guest in my home here in Oklahoma. I find it hard to imagine what I'll learn from him in person after all that I've learned over 1500 miles of telephone line. I agree with what Fred said and will expand on it a bit... ANYONE could benefit from visiting with Hal, IF they have an open mind and a willingness to learn. I consider Hal my friend and look forward to tying him up in Poteau Oklahoma for a few days, and drain his brain of all the information I can!

Forever a student of the game...

Bob

Popcorn
06-19-2005, 05:23 PM
So what is the point of your post? Why don't one of you just post the system and leave it at that.

Qtec
06-19-2005, 06:58 PM
Hi Popcorn, I did a google on HH to find out more about this secret aiming system and I found this on Johnny Archer's website in the Q&amp;A section.

[ QUOTE ]
When players write to you, asking how to aim, your pat answer is to say that you get three feet back from the shot, then you shoot parallel lines. That is all hogwash. That is not how you aim. Why don't you level with these recreational players? You use the aiming system whereby you aim the center of the cue ball at the edge of the object ball for any and all shots. You know exactly what I am talking about. We both know about placing the cue tip either left or right of cue ball center, and you know why we do that. Get honest for a change. These recreational players are no threat. Tell them the truth. - Hal Houle

To: Hal Houle: I really don't know why you keep writing about my aiming system. Everybody that is listening, IT IS MY AIMING SYSTEM. I hope this would relieve some pressure that you have. Thanks, Johnny




From HAL HOULE: WHY DON'T YOU LEVEL WITH THESE KIDS AND TELL THEM THAT YOU USE AN AIMING SYSTEM THAT INVOLVES AIMING THE CUE BALL CENTER AT THE EDGE OF THE OBJECT BALL ON EVERY KIND OF SHOT YOU SHOOT. THAT AIMING SYSTEM ALLOWS YOU TO BE ACCURATE AND CONSISTENT. YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. I HAVE USED THAT SYSTEM SINCE 1934. I GOT IT FROM THE BEST PLAYER THAT EVER PLAYED POOL. RALPH GREENLEAF. YOU WERE GIVEN IT BY SOMEONE, JUST LIKE I WAS. YOU DID NOT DREAM IT UP. SO WHY DON'T YOU DO THE DECENT THING AND BE HONEST WHEN YOU TALK TO THESE RECREATIONAL PLAYERS.

To: Hal Houle: I really don't know what you are talking about. I came up with this aiming system myself. It is not a certain way you do it, just go by feel. I am sorry you made a mistake but it mine. Thanks, Johnny
<hr /></blockquote>


What can I say. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Q

tateuts
06-19-2005, 07:48 PM
I have heard so much of that hogwash it is coming out of my ears. There are two local guys who teach that crap out here and the landscape is littered with their students who were formerly decent players who now have permanently screwed up games. Even the guys that teach it can't play anymore.

No kidding, I can tell by the post to Archer what he's getting at - it's voodoo, not pool.

Chris

wolfdancer
06-19-2005, 09:04 PM
not sure why all the controversy over your post...it's your list, and why can't you establish the guidelines to be included on that list? I included myself on my list of world's sexiest people
re: the publication of a pm....I didn't see anything there, that had to remain private.....I send pm's just to avoid adding to the length of these threads...
aiming systems??? that's a whole other topic, that deserves it's own thread...in fact, let's take the "Voodoo" out of these aiming systems....and explain why they are supposed to work.
Now if you are "guilty" of anything....it's bad judgement.
Hal is the wrong guy to ask about building an alien life force..."I, Robot" to play pool.....
Patrick (The One &amp; only) would have been my first choice.
Dave Syrja had a running controversy with Mr. Houle...and I had some fun pm'ing Dave with sound bites from "2001"

link (http://www.dailywav.com/1299/hmnerror.wav)
link (http://www.dailywav.com/0904/quitelikethis.wav)
link (http://www.dailywav.com/0399/hal_bye.wav)
Joe Davis, when he made the switch from Billiards to Snooker, said he had to retrain his eyes to see the shots differently...since Billiard Players like to use a half ball hit because of it's predictability....I'm sure he would have used a half-ball aiming system...if it worked... for all shots???

theinel
06-20-2005, 03:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote :</font><hr>HAL HOULE: WHY DON'T YOU LEVEL WITH THESE KIDS AND TELL THEM THAT YOU USE AN AIMING SYSTEM THAT INVOLVES AIMING THE CUE BALL CENTER AT THE EDGE OF THE OBJECT BALL ON EVERY KIND OF SHOT YOU SHOOT. THAT AIMING SYSTEM ALLOWS YOU TO BE ACCURATE AND CONSISTENT. YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. I HAVE USED THAT SYSTEM SINCE 1934. I GOT IT FROM THE BEST PLAYER THAT EVER PLAYED POOL. RALPH GREENLEAF. YOU WERE GIVEN IT BY SOMEONE, JUST LIKE I WAS. YOU DID NOT DREAM IT UP. SO WHY DON'T YOU DO THE DECENT THING AND BE HONEST WHEN YOU TALK TO THESE RECREATIONAL PLAYERS.<hr /></blockquote>
I don't know HALHOULE and am not knocking him per se but why would anyone in their right mind use all caps in every one of a dozen correspondence from him that I have seen? I know that not everyone is aware of netiquette but seriously all caps all the time? I'm starting to believe that the man screams at the top of his lungs all day every day.

Qtec
06-20-2005, 05:10 AM
Quote Cane,
[ QUOTE ]
Now on to aiming. I've heard it said that good players don't use an aiming system. Well, I respectfully have to disagree. While once you've reached a certain level, aiming becomes imbedded in your mind so that it's thoughtless, everyone uses one, whether it's ghost ball, contact point, or SAM or one of Hal Houle's many systems <hr /></blockquote>

??? Are we going to spilt hairs on this?
Is this all the info you are willing to provide on this subject?

What gets me is this guy comes on the board and insults Dr Dave and not one of you spff guys say anything about it.

Any particular reason for that?

Q.........obviously HH didnt leave his ego in the bucket when he came to teach the SPFF gang..!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
06-20-2005, 05:23 AM
I dont know the guy either but someone who has the audacity to tell the best pool player in the US that he is too dumb to figure out his own aiming system is a/an ..................?
[fill in your own answer]

IMO, even if he has 150 aiming systems , he dont REALLY have a clue what the GAME is all about.

Qtec...that feels better /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Billy_Bob
06-20-2005, 05:57 AM
I think there have been quite a few "big names" who have been students of Mr. Houle at one time or another...

Qtec
06-20-2005, 06:14 AM
How did these 'big names' get to be 'big names' without even having heard of HH or his aiming systems?
According to HH, this cannot be possible.

Apparently, all the pros are using secret aiming systems that they wont tell anyone about.
Apparently,[ so HH thinks], they are all using his systems!!!!!!!!!!!and not giving him the credit! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I mean......I ask you......!


In any sport, seeing the target is not the problem- hitting it is!

Qtec.........gasp!

Billy_Bob
06-20-2005, 06:43 AM
Well I do know that I have seen a few videos made by some pros where they show "how to" make certain shots, yet they leave out critical information on making the shot. And the camera angle is such that you can't see what they are doing.

I know they are leaving out critical information because I know how to make these shots and understand what is required. It is impossible to make these shots without using a specific technique (technique not included!)

I've also been told a few "secrets" by some very good players which I was asked to not tell anyone (including the info on the above shots).

So I know at least some "secrets" exist. As to other "secrets", I really don't know because no one has told me about them!

FYI, a good time to get a "secret" out of an exceptional player is just after they have won a tournament. They seem to be charitable at these times. But I think each lesser skilled player is only entitled to "one secret" in a lifetime from one of these guys. ...and NEVER use that shot against the person who told you about it. One of these guys told me he was not going to tell me anything else after I did just that! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Qtec
06-20-2005, 07:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> Well I do know that I have seen a few videos made by some pros where they show "how to" make certain shots, yet they leave out critical information on making the shot. And the camera angle is such that you can't see what they are doing. <font color="blue"> Thats because they are players. </font color>

I know they are leaving out critical information because I know how to make these shots and understand what is required. It is impossible to make these shots without using a specific technique (technique not included!)

I've also been told a few "secrets" by some very good players which I was asked to not tell anyone (including the info on the above shots). <font color="blue">I hate to burst your bubble BB, but do you really think YOU are the ONLY one to whom he has offered this information?
Get real! </font color>

So I know at least some "secrets" exist. As to other "secrets", I really don't know because no one has told me about them! <font color="blue"> Thats the HH formula. no-one is allowed to talk about it! </font color>

FYI, a good time to get a "secret" out of an exceptional player is just after they have won a tournament. They seem to be charitable at these times. But I think each lesser skilled player is only entitled to "one secret" in a lifetime from one of these guys. ...and NEVER use that shot against the person who told you about it. One of these guys told me he was not going to tell me anything else after I did just that! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <font color="blue"> If it was an exceptional player, he was just being charitable. If it was a good player, he was being an ass! </font color>


<hr /></blockquote>

If there is a secret BB, I dont think its got anything to do with aiming systems, pivot points and the like.
It must be much more simpler than that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Qtec

Billy_Bob
06-20-2005, 07:28 AM
Actually so far as aiming goes, there are only so many possible ways to aim or things to line up on, for cut shots.

Just use a protractor and set up cut shots for 10 degrees, 20, 30, etc. Place stickers on the table for where the cue ball and object ball should go for each degree of shot. Then make the shot 3 times in a row, and mark where the cue is lined up to make the shot (dead center into pocket).

Then set up the shot again and see what points on the CB line up with which points on the OB. Say center of CB to edge of OB for example. Or center of CB to 1 mm to left of edge of OB.

Then there is a bit of play in the pocket. So maybe one aiming "alignment" might work for three different degrees of shots. One might barely make the ball to left side of pocket, another dead center, and the other to the right side of the pocket.

The only problem I have with "aiming" is that it wears me out quickly. I tried this, made some fantastic shots, but after 3 matches, I was pooped! I could not "aim" anymore. My brain was worn out.

So I think muscle memory (autopilot/instinct) is best for most shots (can last longer brain wise), then use "aiming" for difficult shots only.

Cueless Joey
06-20-2005, 07:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> I have heard so much of that hogwash it is coming out of my ears. There are two local guys who teach that crap out here and the landscape is littered with their students who were formerly decent players who now have permanently screwed up games. Even the guys that teach it can't play anymore.

No kidding, I can tell by the post to Archer what he's getting at - it's voodoo, not pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Chris <hr /></blockquote>
LOL Chris.
I think I know who you are talking about.
Both stole Hal's system and made it their system.
Problem is, their setup shots only work when they set it up.
One of them doesn't play anymore. The other messed a female pro player or two .

Qtec
06-20-2005, 07:42 AM
BB, i,m having trouble taking you seriously, but here goes.

If its possible that you can practice 1/2 an hour every other day, heres what you want to do.

Set up a 1/2 ball shot. Practice it every day, completely. You can play with top, draw , anything you like, but just play that same shot over and over again.


I will bet, that after two weeks, that you could tell me where an OB hits the rail/pocket if you hit that OB, 1/2 ball.

Then you would have learned something.

..and whats even better, you dont even have to know how many degrees a 1/2 B cut is! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Q.

DennyS
06-20-2005, 08:07 AM
Hi Tom it's great to see you posting in here again. I talked with Hal a few days ago and he said he is moving to PA. Said he was going to stop by and visit with me.
Take Care, Denny

Qtec
06-20-2005, 09:06 AM
Tom, Quote from your website[ hope you dont mind],

[ QUOTE ]

Secret Aiming Systems of the Pros.

These teriffic aiming systems will permanently raise your game.
Nearly every top pro uses one of these systems and doesnt want you to know about it.
These secret systems are shockingly simple and but are unlike anytehing you've read about. <hr /></blockquote>


Tom, welcome, just two questions,

Are you the only one who knows these secret aiming systems of the Pros?
Are they really secrets?
If so, could you tell us about them, because nodody else will!

Qtec...........thanks

tateuts
06-20-2005, 09:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> How did these 'big names' get to be 'big names' without even having heard of HH or his aiming systems?
According to HH, this cannot be possible.

Apparently, all the pros are using secret aiming systems that they wont tell anyone about.
Apparently,[ so HH thinks], they are all using his systems!!!!!!!!!!!and not giving him the credit! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I mean......I ask you......!


In any sport, seeing the target is not the problem- hitting it is!

Qtec.........gasp!

<hr /></blockquote>

Qtec,

As a professional instructor, I am ashamed of you.

It is very profitable to have a "secret aiming system". It can be taught in stages. The first $1000 is learning the system. The second $1000 is mastering the system, and the third $1000 is teaching someone who has screwed up their game how to forget the system.

It's better than Amway.

Chris

dr_dave
06-20-2005, 09:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> dr dave contacted me, he wanted to build a robot that would play better than any player. he had been working on the idea for one year and had gotten nowhere. he knew that I was the one to contact about aiming systems. he wanted my systems so that he could build that robot and sell it in japan, as the japanese love to build robots. i turned dr dave down. he cannot build that robot because he does not understand what goes into building aiming systems. he is a college professor, but he is way out of his depth when it comes to building aiming systems that are extremely accurate and consistent. <hr /></blockquote>
Hal,

You must have me confused with somebody else. I have never contacted you before. I didn't even know who you were until a few weeks ago. I certainly never wanted to try to build a robot to play pool. (Although, I heard about a guy in Canada that was trying to do this.)

I also don't appreciate all of the insults, especially when they are mixed in with so much misinformation. I take great offense to your message.

Respectfully,
Dr. Dave

wolfdancer
06-20-2005, 10:07 AM
Sorry, but somebody in the Phillipines has already built a pool playing robot...code name... Efran Reyes

dr_dave
06-20-2005, 10:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> Choose a player who can handle the explanations on the how and the why of the aiming systems, and I will supply the systems. <hr /></blockquote>
After all of this arguing, I still don't know what your aiming system is. Randy was going to cover it at CueTech when I was there, but we ran out of time. The only thing I have heard about it so far is that there are only four different points of aim. I'm not sure if that is accurate information or not, because it is just hearsay. I am hoping you can be more specific. I would like to hear about it from the original source (i.e., you).

Concerning whether or not I can "handle it," I think I can. I will certainly do my best to have an open mind. I also WANT to learn about it, even if I can't "handle it." I never refuse the chance to get different perspectives on things. Could you please share the aiming system with us? If you would prefer that I call you instead, or if you want to communicate via PM or private e-mail, that would be fine also.

Still anxiously waiting to hear about Hal's aiming system,
Dr. Dave

dr_dave
06-20-2005, 10:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Sorry, but somebody in the Phillipines has already built a pool playing robot...code name... Efran Reyes <hr /></blockquote>
I just want to be clear. I had nothing to do with the design or construction of the Efran machine. Although, I wish I could take all of the credit. I would certainly be very proud.

I actually got my PhD in mechanical engineering in the area of robotics. Even with this background, and with my great passion for pool, I still have had absolutely no interest to attempt to build (or even more ludicrous, attempt to sell and profit from) a pool-playing robot.

Regards,
Dr. Dave

dr_dave
06-20-2005, 10:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I don't think Dr. Dave ever claimed to devise systems. He is 1. researcher and 2. a resource. He has put a lot of information in one place that can be studied or disputed if you like, that is how knowledge is gained, by challenging information and separating out what is true and what is not, what is of value and what may not be so valuable. If you have something on his site you take exception with lets discuss it, this is an open forum of learning. It would also be nice if you would set up a site explaining your system so the same could be done. I am sure there are some on here who would be glad to help you do it if you don't have the knowhow. <hr /></blockquote>

Thank you, Popcorn. Very well stated. I really apreciate this coming from you, given our "history" of not always seeing eye-to-eye on things.

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
06-20-2005, 10:39 AM
Yes, there are secret aiming systems, closely guarded by a pool,Rosicrucian type fraternity...and HH is our modern day Michael Sendivogius
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dragon9/rose1.jpg
But the secrets can be revealed to those who can rise above empirically acquired knowledge
Reading the following short article, mentally substituting pool secrets, for priori...will help you to understand why these remain a secret to all but an enlightened few.
secrets (http://cas.memphis.edu/philosophy/dkhndrsn/What%20Is%20A%20Priori.htm)
The secrets have been codified, and buried within VP-IV..not available to the public just yet
Remember that some people already are playing paranormal pool,seeing ghost balls and using dead strokes...

Cueless Joey
06-20-2005, 10:50 AM
Efren machine? LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Efren has been quoted or misquoted by another teaching pro about his aiming method.
Nothing like the one I was told by his best friend here.
I am sworn to it's secrecy.
If my stroke and vision were straight, I'd probably figure it out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Fran Crimi
06-20-2005, 12:01 PM
Funny...a similar thing happened to me, Dave. He claimed I was sending him harassing e-mails with vulgar language and he finaly had to cut me off. I had never even heard of him other than a small exchange we had on the CCB. I asked him to forward the e-mails to me, but he never responded.

Fran

Cane
06-20-2005, 12:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> What gets me is this guy comes on the board and insults Dr Dave and not one of you spff guys say anything about it. Any particular reason for that?
<hr /></blockquote>

Q, to be honest with you, I've got enough going on in my life without being worrying about other grown men, their egos, their battles and their woes. You are right... I did not jump to Dave's defense... on the other hand, when some of the other posters started ragging on Hal for raggin on Dr. Dave, I didn't jump to Hal's defense either and I DO consider Hal a friend. As a matter of fact, I just finished up about a 2 hour phone conversation with him a few minutes ago. To tell you the truth, it's just not my job to jump up and powder someones butt every time they pass gas, OK... They are grown men and can take care of their own disputes, disagreements and misunderstandings. Besides, I think we have plenty of self appointed "Directors of Defense" for CCB anyways... I'll let them take care of it.

Later,
Bob

dr_dave
06-20-2005, 01:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Funny...a similar thing happened to me, Dave. He claimed I was sending him harassing e-mails with vulgar language and he finaly had to cut me off. I had never even heard of him other than a small exchange we had on the CCB. I asked him to forward the e-mails to me, but he never responded.<hr /></blockquote>
Fran, thanks for sharing. In a way, I am honored that he has also attacked you with false accusations. That puts me in pretty good company. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regards,
Dave

DebraLiStarr
06-20-2005, 01:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> I have heard so much of that hogwash it is coming out of my ears. There are two local guys who teach that crap out here and the landscape is littered with their students who were formerly decent players who now have permanently screwed up games. Even the guys that teach it can't play anymore.

No kidding, I can tell by the post to Archer what he's getting at - it's voodoo, not pool.

Chris <hr /></blockquote>

Ok.. Now I'm confused. Are Hal Houle and IMMSHARMA the same guy? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif (wishes these gurus would teach - not debate)

tateuts
06-20-2005, 02:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DebraLiStarr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> I have heard so much of that hogwash it is coming out of my ears. There are two local guys who teach that crap out here and the landscape is littered with their students who were formerly decent players who now have permanently screwed up games. Even the guys that teach it can't play anymore.

No kidding, I can tell by the post to Archer what he's getting at - it's voodoo, not pool.

Chris <hr /></blockquote>

Ok.. Now I'm confused. Are Hal Houle and IMMSHARMA the same guy? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif (wishes these gurus would teach - not debate) <hr /></blockquote>

No, they are two different people, but each has a system of aiming they teach.

Chris

Scott Lee
06-20-2005, 04:02 PM
Chris...The difference is Innsharma charges for his, and HH will share it with anyone for nothing. Unfortunately, sometimes that makes people think it is not worthwhile (because it's free). I think Hal's "system" works well for some people, and I have shared it with many (only having learned it myself from Randy in the past year). You also have to remember that Mr. Houle is in his 80's, and as such, perhaps has a tendency to be a bit 'cranky'! My own father is 88, and has been cranky for many years. jmo

Scott

wolfdancer
06-20-2005, 04:04 PM
cranky????...no problem, I'll be adjusting his meds soon...same thing I did for you

Fran Crimi
06-20-2005, 08:26 PM
Well, I'm sure you know there are ways that people can falsify e-mails. It's possible someone has been sending him e-mails in other people's names. That's why I wanted him to send me a copy of the e-mails. Maybe you'll have better luck on your end. If he can't produce them, then I'd say there was a problem.

Fran

Qtec
06-20-2005, 10:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> What gets me is this guy comes on the board and insults Dr Dave and not one of you spff guys say anything about it. Any particular reason for that?
<hr /></blockquote>

Q, to be honest with you, I've got enough going on in my life without being worrying about other grown men, their egos, their battles and their woes. You are right... I did not jump to Dave's defense... on the other hand, when some of the other posters started ragging on Hal for raggin on Dr. Dave, I didn't jump to Hal's defense either and I DO consider Hal a friend. As a matter of fact, I just finished up about a 2 hour phone conversation with him a few minutes ago. <font color="blue"> I understand the conflict of interest. </font color> To tell you the truth, it's just not my job to jump up and powder someones butt every time they pass gas, OK... <font color="blue"> I never said it was. </font color> They are grown men and can take care of their own disputes, disagreements and misunderstandings. Besides, I think we have plenty of self appointed "Directors of Defense" for CCB anyways... I'll let them take care of it. <font color="blue"> I thought you guys were the 'pool police'! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif j/k /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color>

Later,
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for replying anyway Bob.

Qtec

caedos
06-20-2005, 10:09 PM
Tap!Tap!Tap! My favorite post so far in the threads concerning aiming. It is the most challenging thing for me to instruct. Analytics may never grasp the creative intangibles, and creative doers who learn whatever ball-pocketing method might not realize much of the empirical or intangible relevancies. The only secret I've found is that there isn't one; there is at least one for every player because only a limited amount of what 'it' is can be articulated. I hope to never claim to know what another person sees through their eyes. It would be like 'knowing' that you really see the same shade of red that I'm seeing at the same time. Either that, or I need enlightenment from someone or something I have not yet encountered.

Fun stuff on your link. Thank you.

Carl

Qtec
06-20-2005, 10:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think Hal's "system" works well for some people, and I have shared it with many <hr /></blockquote>

Could you share it with the rest of the board?

I dont want to complain but since HH,s original post, Bob,Carl,pooltchr,Tom, Denny and yourself have made posts and offered no information on any of these systems!

I find that really strange and I,m obviously not the only one.

Qtec....... thought the CCB was about sharing /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif information.

wolfdancer
06-20-2005, 11:11 PM
Carl, I think you have the best description I've heard about the concept of why aiming systems may work for some and not others....I even think that's what I was trying to say, in that post...just wasn't smart enough to get it into words.
While i kid about the systems...I use my version of the half ball hit, that Hal was kind enough to show me....works for me!
thanks for the compliment...teaching a sport is a challenge. I've listened in on hours of golf instruction, that was useless, becuase the instructor couldn't adapt his methods to get through to the student....sounds like you make that adjustment when you teach.

Popcorn
06-21-2005, 12:02 AM
I agree, it seems if the system can be taught in the course of a phone call it should be no problem to put it to papar or computer screen in this case.

Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 07:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Could you share it with the rest of the board?

I dont want to complain but since HH,s original post, Bob,Carl,pooltchr,Tom, Denny and yourself have made posts and offered no information on any of these systems!

I find that really strange and I,m obviously not the only one.

Qtec....... thought the CCB was about sharing /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif information. <hr /></blockquote>The archives of the internet are filled with descriptions of Hal's systems.

Anyone who has the time should give him a call.

For the rest, much of Hal's systems (over 27 systems?) are based on ball-to-ball relation aiming (quarter ball, half ball, etc.). But, Hal kicks it up a notch by teaching different concepts and visualizations of those relations. Add to that Hal's no nonsense approach to compensating for cueball squirt (deflection) with backhand english, and you have a recipe for basic and advanced aiming that work on a real table.

Fred

pooltchr
06-21-2005, 07:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I think Hal's "system" works well for some people, and I have shared it with many <hr /></blockquote>

Could you share it with the rest of the board?

I dont want to complain but since HH,s original post, Bob,Carl,pooltchr,Tom, Denny and yourself have made posts and offered no information on any of these systems!

I find that really strange and I,m obviously not the only one.

Qtec....... thought the CCB was about sharing /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif information. <hr /></blockquote>

Q,
I can't speak for the others, but I would have a very hard time explaining the system in this forum. It would require a combination of explanation, visual demonstration, and actual execution. I'm not that good to be able to explain it simply with the written word. For me, I would rather try to explain what "red" is. I can show you red, but I sure can't explain it.
It's certainly not a secret. I'm showing it to players every chance I get, and Hal has said many times to call him when you are at a pool table and he will walk you through it. When "Cane" showed it to me, I could see the benefits...when I put it into practice, I could see the results. Yet I still can't quite put it into words only, but I am really trying to find a way to do just that.
Steve

Troy
06-21-2005, 08:16 AM
Including 7', 8', 9' and even Snooker tables..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>.....and you have a recipe for basic and advanced aiming that work on a real table.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

caedos
06-21-2005, 08:25 AM
I try and frequently have good results. Pobody is nerfect.

-c

dr_dave
06-21-2005, 08:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Could you share it with the rest of the board?

I dont want to complain but since HH,s original post, Bob,Carl,pooltchr,Tom, Denny and yourself have made posts and offered no information on any of these systems!

I find that really strange and I,m obviously not the only one.

Qtec....... thought the CCB was about sharing /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif information. <hr /></blockquote>
I agree with Qtec 100%. This is beginning to get a little tiresome ... reading so many messages about this amazing aiming system and still not having a clue what it is. You guys are starting to sound like a bunch of snake oil salesmen.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>The archives of the internet are filled with descriptions of Hal's systems.<hr /></blockquote>
Could you please provide a link to what you think is a good description of the basic Hal aiming system?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>Anyone who has the time should give him a call.<hr /></blockquote>
I would love to give him a call. Could you please send me his phone number via PM. In fact, once I learn about Hal's aiming system, I would be happy to post a description along with illustrations and even video demonstrations if necessary.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
06-21-2005, 08:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I agree, it seems if the system can be taught in the course of a phone call it should be no problem to put it to papar or computer screen in this case. <hr /></blockquote>
Tap. Tap. Tap.

Dave

Qtec
06-21-2005, 08:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Could you share it with the rest of the board?

I dont want to complain but since HH,s original post, Bob,Carl,pooltchr,Tom, Denny and yourself have made posts and offered no information on any of these systems!

I find that really strange and I,m obviously not the only one.

Qtec....... thought the CCB was about sharing /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif information. <hr /></blockquote>The archives of the internet are filled with descriptions of Hal's systems. <font color="blue"> I tried that but it didnt help. If you could post a link to an actual explination I would be much obliged.. </font color>

Anyone who has the time should give him a call.

For the rest, much of Hal's systems (over 27 systems?) <font color="blue"> I,m just asking for one. I did read on my search [RSB, etc] that Hal himself claimed that he had 14 systems. 7 cue and 7 ball!</font color> are based on ball-to-ball relation aiming (quarter ball, half ball, etc.). <font color="blue"> Ok.......... </font color> But, Hal kicks it up a notch by teaching different concepts and visualizations of those relations. <font color="blue"> I,m interested in these concepts. </font color> Add to that Hal's no nonsense approach to compensating for cueball squirt (deflection) <font color="blue">Thanks Fred, I think I know what squirt means by now /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color> with backhand english, and you have a recipe for basic and advanced aiming that work on a real table. <font color="blue"> This is the first mention of BHE that I have heard of. Mmmmmmmmmm......
If you have a aiming system involving BHE, thats hardly a 'basic' system, dont you think? I mean, you wouldnt teach that to a beginner.

</font color>


Fred <hr /></blockquote>








Thanks for replying,

Qtec

.......but then again /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif......Lets face it, a pool table isnt that big. The pockets are huge.
You have just as much chance of scratching as potting a ball!
I have never met a top player who had a problem with aiming

Qtec
06-21-2005, 08:41 AM
Thanks for trying anyway pooltchr. you are not the only one who has difficulty it seems in wording this concept.
Qtec

dr_dave
06-21-2005, 08:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>I can't speak for the others, but I would have a very hard time explaining the system in this forum. It would require a combination of explanation, visual demonstration, and actual execution. I'm not that good to be able to explain it simply with the written word. For me, I would rather try to explain what "red" is. I can show you red, but I sure can't explain it.
It's certainly not a secret. I'm showing it to players every chance I get, and Hal has said many times to call him when you are at a pool table and he will walk you through it. When "Cane" showed it to me, I could see the benefits...when I put it into practice, I could see the results. Yet I still can't quite put it into words only, but I am really trying to find a way to do just that.<hr /></blockquote>
Steve,

Would you or anybody else be able to explain it to me over the telephone? I can be by a pool table if necessary. If somebody can explain this mythical and mysterious system, please PM me for my telephone number. Again, I would be happy to post descriptions, illustrations, video demonstrations, or whatever else it might take to share it with others once I understand it.

Regards,
Dave

Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 08:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Hal's systems (over 27 systems?) <font color="blue"> I,m just asking for one. </font color><hr /></blockquote>You'd have to call him. I would say his systems cover from basic to advanced. Which one he would start with would depend on you and your current skill level. On the internet, he may have only shared the very simple two angle or four angle system. If I describe them now, a debate will erupt that could be avoided with a simple phone call to the man. But, here's one of his for your viewing pleasure. Please, call or e-mail him.

Early Hal Houle Post (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.billiard/msg/9d491b6392cbd7de?dmode=source&amp;hl=en)


[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">Thanks Fred, I think I know what squirt means by now /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color> with backhand english, and you have a recipe for basic and advanced aiming that work on a real table. <font color="blue"> This is the first mention of BHE that I have heard of. Mmmmmmmmmm......
If you have a aiming system involving BHE, thats hardly a 'basic' system, dont you think? I mean, you wouldnt teach that to a beginner.</font color>

<hr /></blockquote> I would teach backhand english to a person who needed help with using english. If that's a beginner, then yes a beginner should learn how to compensate for squirt. BHE is probably the simplest. Are you sure you know what BHE is?

Fred

Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 09:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>The archives of the internet are filled with descriptions of Hal's systems.<hr /></blockquote>
Could you please provide a link to what you think is a good description of the basic Hal aiming system? <hr /></blockquote> See other post. I'll dig up another system and PM it to you.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dr. Dave:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>Anyone who has the time should give him a call.<hr /></blockquote>
I would love to give him a call. Could you please send me his phone number via PM. <hr /></blockquote> I'll do better. I'll give it here, as Hal has done over the years. I hope it's the same number:

Hal Houle's Phone Number (http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?as_q=5105813010+HAL&amp;num=10&amp;scoring=r&amp;hl=en&amp; as_epq=&amp;as_oq=&amp;as_eq=&amp;as_ugroup=rec.sport.billiard &amp;as_usubject=&amp;as_uauthors=&amp;lr=&amp;as_drrb=q&amp;as_qdr=&amp;a s_mind=1&amp;as_minm=1&amp;as_miny=1981&amp;as_maxd=21&amp;as_maxm =6&amp;as_maxy=2005&amp;safe=off)


Fred

caedos
06-21-2005, 09:15 AM
The best description of S.A.M. (coming from an analytic - me) that I can briefly sum up: fractional aiming (ala Joe Davis), combined with edge-of-object ball and on the cloth aiming points (the aiming point that the cue ball is shot directly towards. Credit is Hal Houle for the cue ball aiming points and Randy G for on the cloth. Hal stays with the cue ball variants all the way because the cloth spots appear to be too general), a simple numbering system for those points so that eventually the shoot won't need to worry about exact angles (like, is it 32 or 34.5 degrees? For most players using this system it doesn't matter anymore. Credit Randy G for numbering, Hal Houle for original concept), the process of aiming with the cue and not the cue ball (Hal Houle), and the requirement that the shooter believe in what they are doing without overthinking and just shoot the shot with a creative and non-analytic approach to this process (Primary credit should go to Hal Houle and then Randy G as this is how I observe them teach with good results). This method is a way of turning fractional aiming (1/4 ball,1/2 ball,1/8th ball hits...etc.) into what I require of all systems -- a product that tells the shooter 'if I shoot this I get that', allowing an accurate library of experiences and references to be created and relied upon in future performance environments (league, tournament, gambling, or recreation). Any other Zen or mental state requirements are left to the shooter to work out for themselves, as this varies on personality types and beliefs (credit myself for this perspective since Randy and Hal don't bother with this in any discussion I've had or heard about aiming. We could just as easily credit a hundred other people from Wolfdancer to Sendivogius).

I believe that I was of assitance to Randy in the creation and implementation of the current evolution of this training as done by RandyG/Cue Tech, but he would have to say if there was anything specific that came about as a result of my efforts. Mostly I just had fun trying to help him get it presentable for classes. Much of the hands-on traing practices that Randy for this system should also be credited to Hal Houle. Just do it!

That's the best I can do without writing a book for everyone's library /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Some people might learn from more written text. I firmly believe that beyond this third party feedback is needed for alignment and delivery concerns (from a friend or an instructor).

-c, caedos, Oz, Maestro, Carl, Oddball, Lee, Chief, lefty, Carl Harvey, Ozzy, and a number of other choice identifiers and expletives!

Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 09:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote caedos:</font><hr>
Credit Randy G for numbering, Hal Houle for original concept), the process of aiming with the cue and not the cue ball (Hal Houle),
<hr /></blockquote>Joe Tucker also teaches a number system that is very similar to Hal's systems. I want to say he broke it down to 10 or 14 shots and also sells a cueball for his system, IIRC.

Fred

Barbara
06-21-2005, 09:38 AM
Fred,

Bob Jewett discussed Joe's system in his June column in BD.

Barbara

SPetty
06-21-2005, 09:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Joe Tucker also teaches a number system that is very similar to Hal's systems. I want to say he broke it down to 10 or 14 shots and also sells a cueball for his system, IIRC.<hr /></blockquote>The Aiming By The Numbers Method

Endorsed by world champion Mike Massey
Developed by world class pool player &amp; instructor Joe Tucker

A unique and incredibly efficient method for learning how to pocket the balls

Includes:

2 aramith 2"1/4 training balls with unique embedded patterns
1 detailed manual that includes 64 pages of instructions, 25 detailed drawings and a glossary
2 flat aiming discs that will allow you to practice without a pool table anywhere at anytime
2 pocket cheat sheets that will help you to take in the method


"The whole package is the clearest, most complete explanation of any aiming system available" (Bob Jewett, Professional Instructor, Billiards Digest, June 2005). Click HERE to view the whole article.

http://www.saluc.com/html/billiard/index.php?idlien=17

http://www.saluc.com/visu/BlisterLCBTuckerPackShot.jpg

Qtec
06-21-2005, 09:48 AM
Thanks for the link.
I reserve comment till I have read it at least a 100 times! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Qtec

wolfdancer
06-21-2005, 09:55 AM
Carl,good post
Your explanation of the systems is basic enough to get a grasp on the concepts, and intriguing enough, to make one want to find out more.......well, that's not quite what I'm trying to say..just don't have the communication skills that you have.
Interesting that you mention Joe Davis...all but unknown to today's 9-ball players. I still have a copy of Joe's book...and I do mean a copy.I wonder if you ever read Marvin Chen's book on aiming?....or Hal Mix's?
Marvin taught a double the distance method....while Hal Mix
taught a parallel aiming method.
What my small mind picked up from the parallel method was point "X" on the cueball....I could see point "X" on the O.B. Of course I'm still having trouble getting these two points to "mate" when I'm playing.
There was a very good teacher in the Bay Area,Ed Nagle, since passed away, that taught.. ball relationship concepts (my words)...sorry to say I never folllowed though on any lessons from Ed. Always meant to ask Hal Houle if he knew Ed, and was familiar with Ed's concepts?
My own aiming skills,compared to a top player, are about on a par with my typing skills compared to a typist.Hunt and peck.....which come to think about it, also describes my stroke
However I only had the introductory lesson from Scott Lee..."wax on, wax off" ..we didn't get to the set, pause...etc stuff and with my short term memory problems, it would probably end up as "set it and forget it"
Last time Hal's systems came up for discussion...a few years back...the "critics" here were a little tougher...seemed nodody could understand the concept of "free" lessons, and kept accusing Hal of trying to make $$ from his theories
Couple of hundred years ago...he might have been burned at the stake, accused of black magic...which some of his systems seem to be.....anyway, great post....soon as Mr. Bush raises the monthly SS stipend, I'll sign up for lessons

SpiderMan
06-21-2005, 10:04 AM
Like all "discrete", "fractional-ball", and simililar aiming systems, it gets you in the ballpark for most shots and depends upon subconscious correction to make the fine adjustments. In other words, you have to use it as a guide, "take it on faith", and shoot the shots.

For a beginner, it will get them in the ballpark and they'll accidentally pocket more balls than by winging it. For an intermediate, they may have enough experience that they will subconsciously correct, and the system might work well for them. The expert doesn't need a system to get them in the ballpark.

All discrete systems have the same failing - they are not geometrically correct for all setups. If you claim that there are only a (small) discrete number of aimpoints required to hit any pocket from any setup, and disallow the subconscious correction factor, all such systems may be easily disproven. In practice, your ability to compensate overcomes the built-in flaws of the system.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
06-21-2005, 10:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Could you share it with the rest of the board?

I dont want to complain but since HH,s original post, Bob,Carl,pooltchr,Tom, Denny and yourself have made posts and offered no information on any of these systems!

I find that really strange and I,m obviously not the only one.

Qtec....... thought the CCB was about sharing /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif information. <hr /></blockquote>
I agree with Qtec 100%. This is beginning to get a little tiresome ... reading so many messages about this amazing aiming system and still not having a clue what it is. You guys are starting to sound like a bunch of snake oil salesmen.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>The archives of the internet are filled with descriptions of Hal's systems.<hr /></blockquote>
Could you please provide a link to what you think is a good description of the basic Hal aiming system?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>Anyone who has the time should give him a call.<hr /></blockquote>
I would love to give him a call. Could you please send me his phone number via PM. In fact, once I learn about Hal's aiming system, I would be happy to post a description along with illustrations and even video demonstrations if necessary.
Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Dave,

I followed that same quest approximately three or four years ago. You will need to be at a pool table when you call, and ideally you should be on a wireless phone with handsfree accessories so that you can execute as you talk.

Mr Houle is a fine person to speak with, and believes wholeheartedly in what he is saying. However, he is either untrained in geometry or he believes that discussing the "real" reason the system works (compensation) will somehow detract from it's validity.

SpiderMan

Cane
06-21-2005, 10:50 AM
Marty, You're going to be at the Chili Cook off, right? Are you willing to give me a chance to prove that the geometry of the table makes it work and not compensation? You know I'm an engineer and I'll be honest, when I first started using the few systems of Hals that I know (only 5 or 6 of the 20 something he has), I didn't believe it would work either, without compensation, but between now and this weekend, just keep an open mind and let me show you something PHYSICAL that will prove it's geometrically sound and not based on compensation. Actually, compensation and overanalysis are the only ways to screw the system up!

SPETTY: Have a sheet or a beach towel ready for me if you can!

Later,
Bob

Billy_Bob
06-21-2005, 10:56 AM
This aiming system is simple.

In a nutshell, you can have 8 different cut shots.
10 degrees, 20 degrees, 30 degrees, 40, 50, 60, 70 and 80.

You can aim 8 different ways for each cut shot and make the object ball dead center into the pocket.

*OR* you can have just 3 different aiming points for all cut shots. This takes advantage of the fact that there is "play" involved with pocketing a ball. So you may aim center of cue ball to edge of object ball and that would make several different angles of cut shots. In some cases, the OB would go into the center of the pocket. In other cases, the OB would go to the left or right side of the pocket. But you are still making the ball.

The bottom line is that you are using one aiming point which covers several different degrees of cut shots.

So I tell beginning players who are using a center ball hit to aim center to edge with cut shots in the "middle range". They instantly start making balls or at least the balls start getting closer to the pocket than "way off the mark".

That is all there is to it.

SpiderMan
06-21-2005, 10:58 AM
You gotta deal!

SpiderMan

Cane
06-21-2005, 11:04 AM
Marty, Great! Of course, you realize we have to take chili and tequila breaks every 5 shots, right??? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Bob (expects to not feel well at all by Sunday morning!)

HOWARD
06-21-2005, 11:21 AM
Aim - ? If you got no stroke, you got to poke and you are
going to choke.

Howard

caedos
06-21-2005, 11:29 AM
Todd Leveck also has at least one in his book that draws on this concept, if you can sort through the rest of what's there.

c

caedos
06-21-2005, 11:44 AM
Hal Mix I've read and have some note/copies of some things. Chen I have not and could not locate on Amazon just now. I bought an aiming book by Kukla that is not too different than the line of sight and aim point concepts being discussed here, although he relies in some parts on lights and shadows.

Where or how would I find Marvin Chen's book? Do you have the ISBN handy?

Thanks,

C

Qtec
06-21-2005, 11:47 AM
Good post S.

I agree.

Qtec

caedos
06-21-2005, 11:50 AM
Tru dat. Tru dat. U still gotta c rite if u wanna chute kleeeen like. It's like trying to modify the english language into pig-latin or a counter-culture jargon. If the shooter doesn't first know what to look for, the best stroke in the world is still going have a player taking a very long time figuring out where to point the cue and cue ball.

my .02

c

Stretch
06-21-2005, 12:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> This aiming system is simple.

In a nutshell, you can have 8 different cut shots.
10 degrees, 20 degrees, 30 degrees, 40, 50, 60, 70 and 80.

You can aim 8 different ways for each cut shot and make the object ball dead center into the pocket.

*OR* you can have just 3 different aiming points for all cut shots. This takes advantage of the fact that there is "play" involved with pocketing a ball. So you may aim center of cue ball to edge of object ball and that would make several different angles of cut shots. In some cases, the OB would go into the center of the pocket. In other cases, the OB would go to the left or right side of the pocket. But you are still making the ball.

The bottom line is that you are using one aiming point which covers several different degrees of cut shots.

So I tell beginning players who are using a center ball hit to aim center to edge with cut shots in the "middle range". They instantly start making balls or at least the balls start getting closer to the pocket than "way off the mark".

That is all there is to it.
<hr /></blockquote>

THAAANK YOUUUUUU BILLY!! Finaly some sanity. Geezes i started reading this thread and i thought i was going crazy. I'm thinkin wtf is happening, i'm losing my mind!

Your bang on with your approach to the novises on how to get the hang of knocking down the angles. From there it's easy to refine this knowledge to the 5 basic angles. FINECUT, QUARTER BALL, HALFBALL, THREE QUARTER BALL, FULL BALL. A quick assesment of the angle required to pocket the ball lyes within those 5 hits. When you can set up examples of what these angles look like in practice and consistantly make each of the 5 angles, you can pretty much make anything on the table. ( if the shape didn't matter lol)

An easy way to show a person how to aim these angles is to set up frozen ball combonations dead to the pocket. Have the player aim it up for the dead on first ball. Just before he's ready to shoot, take the first ball away. What he "sees" is the aim and alignment for that angle. St.

Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 12:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> From there it's easy to refine this knowledge to the 5 basic angles. FINECUT, QUARTER BALL, HALFBALL, THREE QUARTER BALL, FULL BALL. A quick assesment of the angle required to pocket the ball lyes within those 5 hits. <hr /></blockquote>Although this is a good description of ball relation type aiming, this isn't a good description of Hal's Systems. Hal's are much deeper than simple ball-to-ball aiming. That's why his is, IMO, superior to other ball relation aiming methods.

Fred

SPetty
06-21-2005, 12:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote caedos:</font><hr> Where or how would I find Marvin Chen's book? Do you have the ISBN handy?<hr /></blockquote>You can't find it because it's Marvin Chin.

Billiards Accuracy
Author: Marvin Chin
Publisher: Williams &amp; Davidson (1982)
Language: English
ASIN: B0006EA7R6

I don't know if that's the same book as

Instant Billiards Accuracy
Author: Marvin Chin
Publisher: Exposition Press (August, 1982)
ISBN: 0683493418

If you find one and can get two at a fairly reasonable price, grab me one while you're at it! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

dr_dave
06-21-2005, 01:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dr. Dave:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>Anyone who has the time should give him a call.<hr /></blockquote>
I would love to give him a call. Could you please send me his phone number via PM. <hr /></blockquote> I'll do better. I'll give it here, as Hal has done over the years. I hope it's the same number:

Hal Houle's Phone Number (http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?as_q=5105813010+HAL&amp;num=10&amp;scoring=r&amp;hl=en&amp; as_epq=&amp;as_oq=&amp;as_eq=&amp;as_ugroup=rec.sport.billiard &amp;as_usubject=&amp;as_uauthors=&amp;lr=&amp;as_drrb=q&amp;as_qdr=&amp;a s_mind=1&amp;as_minm=1&amp;as_miny=1981&amp;as_maxd=21&amp;as_maxm =6&amp;as_maxy=2005&amp;safe=off)<hr /></blockquote>
Fred,

Thanks a bunch. The number is the same. I talked with him for an hour or so today and plan to call him again later in the week after I have some time to play around with and think about his method. Hal seems like a great guy, and it was great fun talking with him.

Dave

dr_dave
06-21-2005, 02:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>Mr Houle is a fine person to speak with, and believes wholeheartedly in what he is saying. However, he is either untrained in geometry or he believes that discussing the "real" reason the system works (compensation) will somehow detract from it's validity.<hr /></blockquote>
I also suspect that the secret (and maybe unspoken) "compensation" is where the magic lies, but I'm still trying to keep an open mind until I have heard everything Hal has to say.

Thanks for the heads up and the insight,
Dave

dr_dave
06-21-2005, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Like all "discrete", "fractional-ball", and simililar aiming systems, it gets you in the ballpark for most shots and depends upon subconscious correction to make the fine adjustments. In other words, you have to use it as a guide, "take it on faith", and shoot the shots.

For a beginner, it will get them in the ballpark and they'll accidentally pocket more balls than by winging it. For an intermediate, they may have enough experience that they will subconsciously correct, and the system might work well for them. The expert doesn't need a system to get them in the ballpark.

All discrete systems have the same failing - they are not geometrically correct for all setups. If you claim that there are only a (small) discrete number of aimpoints required to hit any pocket from any setup, and disallow the subconscious correction factor, all such systems may be easily disproven. In practice, your ability to compensate overcomes the built-in flaws of the system.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>Good post S.

I agree.

Qtec<hr /></blockquote>

Ditto from Dave. As always, another insightful post from the Spiderman.

dr_dave
06-21-2005, 02:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr>An easy way to show a person how to aim these angles is to set up frozen ball combonations dead to the pocket. Have the player aim it up for the dead on first ball. Just before he's ready to shoot, take the first ball away. What he "sees" is the aim and alignment for that angle. St. <hr /></blockquote>
FYI to all, NV 3.1 and NV 3.2 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/index.html) show how this done (although, I didn't have somebody "helping me" like I should have).

Regards,
Dave

caedos
06-21-2005, 09:28 PM
Thank you. I'm on it tonight and I'll talk to you Saturday in person.

c

caedos
06-21-2005, 09:40 PM
Addendum: Yes I have a paperback of Chin's book I found on the bookshelf. It's still available on Amazon, new. If you collect aiming books it's worth having, but not a 'must have'.


Spetty -- thanks for the title and name correction.

c

SPetty
06-21-2005, 09:51 PM
When I looked on Amazon, it was out of print and unavailable. Do you have a link?

dr_dave
06-22-2005, 11:14 AM
FYI to all:

I posted a description and analysis of the basic Hal Houle aiming system. It can be found on a new thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=198526&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1).

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Like all "discrete", "fractional-ball", and simililar aiming systems, it gets you in the ballpark for most shots and depends upon subconscious correction to make the fine adjustments. In other words, you have to use it as a guide, "take it on faith", and shoot the shots.

For a beginner, it will get them in the ballpark and they'll accidentally pocket more balls than by winging it. For an intermediate, they may have enough experience that they will subconsciously correct, and the system might work well for them. The expert doesn't need a system to get them in the ballpark.

All discrete systems have the same failing - they are not geometrically correct for all setups. If you claim that there are only a (small) discrete number of aimpoints required to hit any pocket from any setup, and disallow the subconscious correction factor, all such systems may be easily disproven. In practice, your ability to compensate overcomes the built-in flaws of the system.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>Good post S.

I agree.

Qtec<hr /></blockquote>

Ditto from Dave. As always, another insightful post from the Spiderman. <hr /></blockquote>

HALHOULE
03-02-2006, 10:33 PM
I do not use fractional or discrete aiming systems, period. Why do you continue to think that I do? Pose that question to Bob Nunley and see what he says. Why do you even bother to know or not know what I do? Get a life of your own. You have no idea how I aim at anything.

rukiddingme
03-03-2006, 06:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> I do not use fractional or discrete aiming systems, period. Why do you continue to think that I do? Pose that question to Bob Nunley and see what he says. Why do you even bother to know or not know what I do? Get a life of your own. You have no idea how I aim at anything.


I love this thread...KEEP ON POSTING HAL!
ruk

HALHOULE
03-05-2006, 12:06 AM
I offered to tell you how and why my aiming systems work, but you turned me down. So be it, my friend.

HALHOULE
03-05-2006, 11:43 AM
NEVER HEARD OF A BOB FELCHER. HEARD OF A BOB FANCHER.

ROBERT FANCHER

DebraLiStarr
03-05-2006, 12:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> NEVER HEARD OF A BOB FELCHER. HEARD OF A BOB FANCHER.

ROBERT FANCHER <hr /></blockquote>

Give 'em hell, HAL!!! Give 'em hell!!!

Hal who? HAL HOULE!!!

Hal,

I'll get the answer to this when I call you this week (I'm sure), but isnt the unreliability of the fractional aiming systems the fact that they are measured at the ball's equator, and it does not factor in where the ball meets the cloth? I have always believed that if the center of the base of the ball passes through at the direct center of the pocket, you will make the shot... I believe most balls are missed because the outer edge of the ball's equator nipping the edge of the pocket, or the contact point is missed entirely - sending the object ball on an incorrect path. For this reason, I believe a lot of the fractional systems are flawed, and coming from a snooker background, it is imperative for me to concentrate on clean potting of the balls. Is my thinking correct on this, or am I wrong? That is why I dont use the fractional systems. What say ye, HAL HOULE?

Also, HAL, are you familiar with Joe Tucker's aiming system and the purple and white ball set he has? I have that and his instructional book. It is endorsed by Mike Massey. Is your system similar to that system? It comes with these disks and a number system. Its hard for me to understand it... just wondering if anyone has any comments on that system, or a better way of explaining it.

You rule, HAL HOULE!

wolfdancer
03-05-2006, 01:03 PM
Debra, Joe's system...in my view....is just like Marvin Chen's
"equal and opposite" system. It's a good system, if it "registers" with you.
You'll enjoy your chat with Hal.....how many octogenarians, still have a great sense of humor, and are still teaching pool?

pooltchr
03-05-2006, 07:38 PM
Wolf,
Equal and Opposite is a good description of it. I just don't understand how it is considered an aiming system. It does very clearly show that the contact points of the two balls is always the same distance (opposite side) from the parallel lines of the center of the cue ball path and the center of the object ball. It's nice information to know, but tough for me to explain how to use it when determining an aiming point.
Steve