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pooltchr
06-16-2005, 05:20 AM
Last night in league, I was playing someone ranked a couple of skill levels below me. Early in the match, the score remained fairly even. Of course, with the spot, that means I was behind. Near the end of the match, she needed only 3 points to win the match, I needed 21.
I managed to score all 10 points in the next game in 1 inning, then got a break and run for another 10, and got 1 on the snap. 21 straight points in 1 inning.
My opponent came over and said "Did you just decide to run off 21 straight points? What were you doing before, running up innings?" I told her that every time I get down on a shot, my goal is to make it, and I got some good rolls. Now I have lost to this same player in other matches, so it's not like this was some kind of "master plan".
My question is why, when you play at or maybe even better than your usual game, is it sandbagging? If that's the case, wouldn't any lower ranked player who knocks off a higher ranked player be considered the same thing?
I play to win every time I go to the table. It really bothers me that, when I do have a good night, I'm accused of cheating!
Any thoughts?
Steve

theinel
06-16-2005, 05:40 AM
I've lost my love for leagues lately but have been playing in them for over ten years and you just have to have fun with them and ignore the BS that you get from all of the unhappy people and poor sports.

Any ranking or handicap is based on your overall performance and until you get to the near professional level you will always have those magical nights where you can't miss and those nightmarish nights where you are lucky to make anything.

It sounds like your opponent that night was stuck in that mind set that I see many players fall into where they think that getting close to winning means that they will win and then they behave badly because either they didn't finish you off or you didn't give them the chance to.

Congrats on not letting the score bog you down and doing the players job of executing the shots and winning the match.

Fred Agnir
06-16-2005, 06:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> My question is why, when you play at or maybe even better than your usual game, is it sandbagging? If that's the case, wouldn't any lower ranked player who knocks off a higher ranked player be considered the same thing?<hr /></blockquote>Exactly. There's more accusations of sandbagging then there is actual sandbaggin. In my experience in leagues (straight since 1988), sandbagging ... true sandbagging is an incredibly low percentage. Those that accuse simply do not understand or are not willing to accept the realities of the ups and downs.

If you win, you must have been sandbagging. If you lose , you must be sandbagging. Ridiculous. The biggest issue that really confuses people is the vast difference in skill levels when comparing one strong region to a weak region. An SL-6 for example in a strong region could be relatively strong amateur (B-player), whereas an SL-6 in a weak region would be a D-player. That's a fault of the handicapping system, and not a sandbagging issue.

Fred

DebraLiStarr
06-16-2005, 06:46 AM
Steve,
I went through the same thing this year in my league. Sometimes I can shoot very well when I am focused, other times I can't hit the broad side of a barn. This one particular night I was not playing very well until my last game, where I broke and ran the table. I was accused of the same exact thing. Leagues are supposed to be fun. When people get too serious about it, it ruins it for everyone. (Hey - I rhymed!!!). For me, league night is just a night out to go out and have fun with my friends. If the leagues went back to being fun and enjoyable instead of super-competitive, then I might consider playing again next year. The way I feel now... I think I'll find something else to do.

Cueless Joey
06-16-2005, 07:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If the leagues went back to being fun and enjoyable instead of super-competitive, then I might consider playing again next year. The way I feel now... I think I'll find something else to do. <hr /></blockquote>
Karaoke contests are more fun. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

JPB
06-16-2005, 07:58 AM
Leagues cater to no-heart non-competitors who are much more concerned with their handicaps than playing. This is not unique to pool. I have posted on this before and it is why I won't play in a league. I sometimes fill in in a golf twilight league. Same thing, somewhat higher socioeconomic sphere. League people are juvenile. I hate it. Stop playing leagues.

Barbara
06-16-2005, 08:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>I managed to score all 10 points in the next game in 1 inning, then got a break and run for another 10, and got 1 on the snap. 21 straight points in 1 inning.
<hr /></blockquote>

Don't sweat it, Steve. Tonight I start my summer session after missing the first two weeks because of work. I heard from my captain that I got knocked back from a 6 to a 5. LOL! I know I'm going to hear the "S" word tonight.

I just want to play and play the best I can. I could care less what my s/l level is.

Congrats on the score!

Barbara

9 Ball Girl
06-16-2005, 08:19 AM
Hi Steve. The same thing happened to me some years ago when as a favor I played in an APA league for a friend. They brought me in as a 3 after me telling the LO that I should at least be a 5. Anyway, I was losing to a 4 (from what I can remember he was on the hill and I needed to win 3 games--it was 8 ball) and all I can remember was the look on my opponent's face (he had what I now call the "APA Yeah I'm The Best Player" look) and that pissed me off. I dug down so deep within myself, zoned out and beat the crapola out of him. Afterwards, he and his teammates accused me of sandbagging. Funny thing was, that was around the time I joined the CCB and had only heard of the term from here so to hear me get accused of it was funny 'cause I wasn't sandbagging! I remember the thread I started too called "Me? Sandbagging?!"

cheesemouse
06-16-2005, 08:55 AM
Steve,

I think you've touched upon an area of pool that is rarely concidered and that is personal honesty. PH is a no brainer. I mean why would anyone lie to themselves. More to the point can anyone lie to themselves? What I'm getting at is as one advances in the game you start to leave the physical behind and begin to have more mental clarity about the situations before you. Steve, you were just honest with yourself. You understood what happened and because f your skill level you simply took advantage of the opportunity that present itself. Your ? [ QUOTE ]
My question is why, when you play at or maybe even better than your usual game, is it sandbagging?<hr /></blockquote> is rhetorical. You know what happened because of your PH and should give yourself a pat on the back for playing up to your skill level.
At the same time you shouldn't dis the lower level accuser but rather cut them some slack as they are still struggling with the physical game. They suffer from preformance anxiety and are in panic mode on nearly every shot. If you could fast forward a few years that same accuser my come up to you and say "remember that night I called you a sandbagger? I now understand that you were just playing your game. Now that I play much better I understand and I'm here to appoligize for my novice behavior." Of course, that will never happen but, what the hell, we can dream can't we? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

SPetty
06-16-2005, 09:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> I remember the thread I started too called "Me? Sandbagging?!" <hr /></blockquote> "Me? Sandbagging?!" (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccbboard&amp;Number=43583&amp;Foru m=All_Forums&amp;Words=9%20Ball%20Girl&amp;Match=Username&amp; Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25000&amp;Old=allposts&amp;Main=43583&amp;S earch=true#Post43583)

DebraLiStarr
06-16-2005, 09:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr>
Karaoke contests are more fun. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Hey Joey...
Any special song requests???

<font color="blue">Rub is a Battafeared!!! </font color>

sneakypapi
06-16-2005, 09:00 PM
Technically isn't Sandbagging losing on purpose to make it look like you can't play? In many leagues players will sandbag to get a lower ranking so they can beat lower level players more easier without giving up a spot. Some people in the posts were referring to Sandbagging as losing then coming back in the same game?

Cueless Joey
06-16-2005, 09:51 PM
<font color="blue"> Frashdance Wutt A Feerring </font color> :-)

Vagabond
06-17-2005, 03:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> It really bothers me that, when I do have a good night, I'm accused of cheating!
Any thoughts?
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Hi,
I do not know anything about league because I never played in them.
If some one accuses me of sandbagging, it bothers me too,but for a different reason.Sandbagging is an art and I defend it.If some one suspected me of sandbagging ,it means that I did not carry out/ execute/ put into practice, the art properly.
when properly done others will not know it.
I am a big DEFENDER OF SANDBAGGING.I love it. Cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rich R.
06-17-2005, 03:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sneakypapi:</font><hr> Technically isn't Sandbagging losing on purpose to make it look like you can't play? In many leagues players will sandbag to get a lower ranking so they can beat lower level players more easier without giving up a spot. Some people in the posts were referring to Sandbagging as losing then coming back in the same game? <hr /></blockquote>
In most league play, the number of innings per match is also a factor in determining a handicap. Therefore, you can win, with a lot of innings, and it would still help to hold your handicap down.

Fred Agnir
06-17-2005, 07:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sneakypapi:</font><hr> Technically isn't Sandbagging losing on purpose to make it look like you can't play? <hr /></blockquote>No. Sandbagging is playing to falsely keep your skill level deceive, or in the APA's case to keep your handicap from rising. In the APA, the accumulation of innings can keep your handicap from going up. That is, innings are the sandbag. Your handicap is the balloon.

Fred

Popcorn
06-17-2005, 10:49 AM
It depends on the arena. In league play it is an attempt to manipulate the handicaps and that is cheating in my opinion. If it were condoned the whole system breaks down. In gambling I agree with you. If someone fools an opponent into raising a bet or playing a little longer then they should have it is just gamesmanship. Sort of the same as a bluff in a poker game or low betting trying to represent a weak hand to suck the other players in. You know, in league play it is especially despicable since you are playing pretty much for fun and prestige. Why would you want to stall, wouldn't you rather be thought of as a good player then a sleaze.

catscradle
06-17-2005, 11:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
If the leagues went back to being fun and enjoyable instead of super-competitive, then I might consider playing again next year. The way I feel now... I think I'll find something else to do. <hr /></blockquote>
Karaoke contests are more fun. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

You obviously have never heard me sing.

sack316
06-17-2005, 11:29 AM
I've been accused several times myself, but I always try my best. One guy accused me when I first came in the league (starting off as a 4) and he was a 6. I beat him bad. I moved up to a 5 and played him again later on, beat him again. He fussed and whined about how I should be a 6. WHen I moved up to a 6 I beat him worse than ever (I was fired up against him). Even one day if I'm a 9 I think he'll never be satisfied.
Then the other week I played a 5 (I'm still a 6), and the first rack I broke and ran. Over the next 2 racks I just got all the rolls and he got some bad ones, and I was way out in front. Well the rolls started going the other way and he was shooting very strong. We were playing about even the rest of the time, but my huge lead held up to a 15-5 win. Someone called me a sandbagger, and all I could say was "how do you sandbad winning 15-5 with 7 defensive shots?" I don't know, it's crazy and I do know some people who do sandbag, but overall it's a very low percentage of people who do it. Most of the people I know play for fun and that's it.

Saint
06-17-2005, 11:43 AM
I still don't understand all of the rules and ways to sandbag, I just started playing in my first APA league last month. I've had three matches. I came in as an SL4 as that is what I guess men start as, but I was told I should probably be an SL5.

I play my first match against an SL3, he only has to win 2 games and I am nervous as 1.) I've never played leagues before and 2.) I'm not used to having a cheering section when I play. I lose 2 in a row and they drop me down to SL3 immediately.

The next week I play an SL5 and he beats me 2 games in a row, but he has to win 4 and I have to win 2. I realize I can't beat him just making shots so I start playing more defensively and beat him the next 2 games in a row, but the games take a while because if I'm not 90% on a shot I'm just hooking him. So they don't move me up in rating and I'm still an SL3.

The next week I play an SL2 so she hsa to win 2 games and I have to win 3. I win the first one pretty quickly, but right before I break the second game my wife calls and tells me she's taking my two year old to the hospital (having breathing problems from being sick). I finish the match, but I am rattled so it takes me a while to win and she beats me one game in the process.

So, next week I'm betting I'll be SL3 again after what you guys are saying about innings. I feel like I'm sandbagging on accident /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

--Saint

pooltchr
06-17-2005, 12:26 PM
don't sweat it. New player handicaps move around quite a bit. The more matches they have to work with, the more stable and accurate your handicap becomes. Just play your best each week, and your handicap will take care of itself.
By the way, I believe they use the best 10 matches out of your last 20 to figure your handicap, so a couple of bad weeks probably won't even figure into it when the time comes for handicap review.
Steve

Vagabond
06-17-2005, 07:01 PM
Hi,
I never played in any league( BCA,VNEA,APA and others) and I do not know what the APA 7 or 6 or 5 means.
I am glad to know that u consider sandbagging as gamesmanship.
I do not approve of cheating,sharking( making krinkling noice while opening bag of potato chips etc., and even playing slow).Cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

caedos
06-17-2005, 07:49 PM
As I became a better player, I joined a non-handicapped system. If enough players are like-minded, an in-house non-affiliated league is fairly easy to do as long as someone will do the administrivia. Sandbagging goes away, but if it's a small field there may be a dynasty for the local strongman. Our top two or three teams in my division have been the same for several years, but we choose to stay because of the high level of competition we won't get to play against elsewhere. Just pretend the silver lining of the cloud above you isn't the conduit for the lightning that's coming to kill you! It's still possible to win, just slightly more improbable unless you put together the right team and some things go your way... or I could have stayed in a handicapped system with competitors complaining about odds and ends in a format that can take away from how the game can be played (to win the game and not about the points). Do whichever you enjoy the most!



c

lukeISinVA
06-17-2005, 11:00 PM
Yeah I hate that sandbagging thing. If I lose a match I hear my opponent going oh your just trying to lower your handicap, or you werent really playing. One guy had the nerve to say I was sandbagging on him and I had an 8 on break and a break and run. I thought he was kidding!!! But later his teammate said that he said I am the biggest sandbagger in the league!! Its funny you have a great night your a sandbagger, if you have a bad night your still a sandbagger. This only happens in my apa league. My in-house league I never hear this!!

stickman
06-17-2005, 11:28 PM
"It really bothers me that, when I do have a good night, I'm accused of cheating!" My best advice is to just not let it bother you. This is common in league play, and some folks will think what they will. I've played league for several years, and don't usually get too excited at the things I've seen. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Last night a teammate was playing a SL3. The 3 broke and ran one rack of 8ball, and won another game in 1 inning. I never accused him of sandbagging, but I did say "He shoots awfully good for a three." That was hard to deny. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I did get a little ruffled during the matches. I am the co-captain, and the captain was absent. It was my turn to put up a player. When I put up my player, the other captain tried to create a ruckus. My player wasn't on the score sheet list. I explained that there were 2 players on the list that had never shown up, and we had replaced one of them with this player during the second week. This is week 6 and this player has been playing since. She wouldn't play him. She also wanted his APA number. The revised player list had been given weeks ago, but the sheets hadn't been updated. My player and I played the spring session, and the cards haven't been issued yet. I explained this to her, and she still wasn't satisfied. This captain is known for these kinds of stunts. I finally told her that she could either play and protest the match, or forfeit the match. I wasn't going to allow the stalemate to continue indefinately. She finally agreed, with some prodding by her team. To me, this is recreational pool, and not something to make such a big deal over.

HALHOULE
06-18-2005, 04:50 AM
Is it not rational that the player in that recreational league griped, because he/she thought that you were an instructor of many years experience, and an accomplished player, with many years of experience. Might not that tick her off? Was he/she a c or a d?

Race2-9
06-18-2005, 05:46 AM
Any time there is a spot...someone is going to get accused of sandbagging. I suggest you play in non handicapped leagues.

pooltchr
06-19-2005, 09:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> Is it not rational that the player in that recreational league griped, because he/she thought that you were an instructor of many years experience, and an accomplished player, with many years of experience. Might not that tick her off? Was he/she a c or a d? <hr /></blockquote>
She didn't gripe last session when she beat me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif