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Qtec
06-21-2005, 08:49 AM
I can only think of one shot that can ONLY be played with BHE and you wouldnt even use it in a game.
There would be no point!

What is it?
Are there more?

Qtec /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Steve Lipsky
06-21-2005, 08:50 AM
This is sad, but I have to ask. What is BHE?

- Steve

Barbara
06-21-2005, 08:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> This is sad, but I have to ask. What is BHE?

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Back Hand English

Barbara

Steve Lipsky
06-21-2005, 08:59 AM
This is sad, but I have to ask. What is Back Hand English?

LOL, but I'm not kidding /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

- Steve

Barbara
06-21-2005, 09:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> This is sad, but I have to ask. What is Back Hand English?

LOL, but I'm not kidding /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve,

It's when you pivot the shaft in your bridge hand (via the back hand) for applying english on the CB instead of moving your bridge hand over to the left or the right.

Barbara

Steve Lipsky
06-21-2005, 09:08 AM
Is this a real concept? Does this work?

- Steve &lt;--- eagerly anticipating the answers to these questions and more...

BillPorter
06-21-2005, 09:14 AM
Steve, contrary to what common sense tells you, it does seem to work. You'd think that if you kept your bridge hand completely still and moved your cue tip from the center of the cue ball to maybe one cue tip width to the right of center by moving your grip hand, (alll this after having aimed the shot) it would certainly cause you to miss the shot. But, surprisingly, it usually does not do so. Don't ask me why. The concept has been around a long, long time. In fact, I think it's mostly old-timers who know about it and use it on occasion.

Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 09:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Is this a real concept? Does this work?

- Steve &lt;--- eagerly anticipating the answers to these questions and more...
<hr /></blockquote>If you use a normal shaft, it does. Question for you Steve. If you aimed to compensate for squirt, but instead of shooting, you pivot your stick about your bridge such that it was aimed at the center of the cueball, where would your cueball be aiming? Check it out on a table and get back to me.

Back Hand English is the same concept as the Aim and Pivot method, but the Aim and Pivot method refines the method understanding that each cue has different squirt characteristics. It's a method that's been described for over a century in various books.

BHE (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=197908&amp;Forum=cc b&amp;Words=deflection%20Hal&amp;Match=And&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Li mit=25&amp;Old=1week&amp;Main=197471&amp;Search=true#Post19790 8)

Fred

Popcorn
06-21-2005, 09:20 AM
It is one of those things you do that someone watching will think you just made the worst stroke they ever saw. I have seen most top players do it but never had a name for it. I am sure you do it as well along with jabs, pokes and all kinds of things that makes up the nuances of your stroke. I didn't know what it was for the longest time till someone described it to me and I thought, "I do that, you mean it has a name"?

SpiderMan
06-21-2005, 09:22 AM
Yes, it's one way of adjusting your aim for the squirt of the cueball.

Assume you want to play a shot with right-hand spin. You line up your aim with centerball, then move your "back hand" to the left while keeping your bridge stationary.

This offsets your tip to the right, for right-hand spin. But it also re-aims the centerline of the cuestick a little bit to the right, in theory offsetting the "squirt" of the cueball to the left, and preserving your original intended line of travel for the cueball.

The amount of re-aiming for a given amount of tip offset at the cueball is a function of your bridge length. A shorter bridge results in a greater aiming offset to achieve the same amount of spin.

By knowing the characteristics of your equipment, you can use a bridge length such that the re-aiming correctly offsets the squirt.

Many cues have pivot points for optimum compensation that are pretty near a player's normal bridge length. If you have the correct bridge length, you should be able to set up a straight-in shot, aim centerball, pivot the back hand, shoot, and have the shot go in with the cueball stopped and spinning in place.

Of course, the compensation is also a function of the cueball mass. Your bridge length for BHE will be shorter with a red circle (light cueball = more squirt), longer with a barbox mudball.

SpiderMan

Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 09:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> I can only think of one shot that can ONLY be played with BHE and you wouldnt even use it in a game.
There would be no point!

What is it?
Are there more?

Qtec /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>Now I'm sure you don't know what BHE is. I use BHE on most of my english shots. THere is no swooping or anything of the sort. It simply a means to compensate for cueball deflection/squirt.

For my cue, my pivot point is about 11", which is roughly my bridge length as well, so I simly pivot about my bridge and shoot on the new line.

Fred

Popcorn
06-21-2005, 09:34 AM
I don't think this is the only one but I can draw the cueball three rails from here. I could not do it with a normal stroke.
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/

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Qtec
06-21-2005, 09:38 AM
The shot I was thinking about was this one Fred.
Go here (http://www.members.lycos.nl/agli2/) , scroll down to spin and observe the first shot.

Its a dead straight shot and I put a lot of spin on the QB and it [ near as dammit] stops on the spot.
Do you think this shot is possible shooting with a parallel cue?
Qtec.....this is handy!

Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 09:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> The shot I was thinking about was this one Fred.
Go here (http://www.members.lycos.nl/agli2/) , scroll down to spin and observe the first shot.

Its a dead straight shot and I put a lot of spin on the QB and it [ near as dammit] stops on the spot.
Do you think this shot is possible shooting with a parallel cue?
Qtec.....this is handy!
<hr /></blockquote>Okay, yes you musn't have been using parallel english unless you had a low squirt cue like a Predator. If you shoot that shot with BHE, why wouldn't you shoot other firm english shot with BHE??? If you know your pivot point is about 8-10", you could use that knowledge with BHE rather than "feeling" the aim.

Fred

Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 09:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> It is one of those things you do that someone watching will think you just made the worst stroke they ever saw. <hr /></blockquote>I think you've got the wrong idea of Backhand English. Buddy Hall might call it "Tuck and Roll." There is no extra swoops with Backhand English. It's just a way of determining where to aim using english.

Fred

SpiderMan
06-21-2005, 09:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I don't think this is the only one but I can draw the cueball three rails from here. I could not do it with a normal stroke.
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/

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You mentioned that you didn't realize there was a name for the "BHE" technique.

I was surprised when I learned that there is a prissy french name for the shot you diagrammed in the quoted post, "foulard" or something similar. I had not seen the shot before Rod Elliot performed it for me.

SpiderMan

Popcorn
06-21-2005, 09:51 AM
If the player is shooting straight at you, what position will the cue be in at the end of the shot? If it is what I am thinking about the cue will be way off line after the shot.

Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 09:53 AM
Here's a diagram using backhand english. The red arrow represents the normal aim line using center ball. The green line represents the aim using right-hand inside english. Point A represents the intersection of those two lines. If I place my bridge hand at A, aim for centerball (the red arrow) and pivot my stick about A such that my tip is pointing to the desired english, my stick will end up aiming on the green arrow.


http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

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Fred

Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 09:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> If the player is shooting straight at you, what position will the cue be in at the end of the shot? If it is what I am thinking about the cue will be way off line after the shot. <hr /></blockquote> The cue should be going straight ahead for the most part. The shooter should NOT be slinging the cue to the side. It's simple squirt compensation.

Fred

Qtec
06-21-2005, 10:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, yes you musn't have been using parallel english unless you had a low squirt cue like a Predator. <font color="blue"> /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Its easier when we can see what we are talking about, dont you think?
Its a second hand Meucci/ red dot. I sanded it down from 13m to 12mmm, by hand. </font color> If you shoot that shot with BHE, why wouldn't you shoot other firm english shot with BHE??? <font color="blue"> Thats simple- because I dont have to!
If I have a zero tolerance shot ie I can just get by an impeding ball, I will use BHE if I dont have the chance to swerve, or its too risky and I need spin.
I,m not saying BHE is wrong ,[ but it really is, in principal ! JMO /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif] but I think parallel shooting is easier to learn and more consistent.
I,m not conscious of the fact that I know where the pivot point on my cue is, but obviously I do! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Otherwise I wouldnt have been able to play that shot.




Qtec </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn
06-21-2005, 10:18 AM
In other words, if I am putting left hand spin on the cue ball it is a method for aiming a little off line to compensate for what the cue ball will do. I.E. The cue ball is shot off line and then pushed back on line. It replaces guessing or at least is a method for a more educated guess. I am not articulating this very well. If I am now understanding it right the term "Back Hand English" doesn't explain it very well it needs a better name.

Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 12:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> In other words, if I am putting left hand spin on the cue ball it is a method for aiming a little off line to compensate for what the cue ball will do. <hr /></blockquote> right.

[ QUOTE ]
It replaces guessing or at least is a method for a more educated guess. <hr /></blockquote> Correct.

[ QUOTE ]
I am not articulating this very well. If I am now understanding it right the term "Back Hand English" doesn't explain it very well it needs a better name. <hr /></blockquote>"Aim and Pivot" is a subset of BHE. It makes more intuitive sense to me.

Aim, Pivot, Set, Pause, Finish, Freeze...

Fred

BoroNut
06-21-2005, 12:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BillPorter:</font><hr> Steve, contrary to what common sense tells you, it does seem to work.<hr /></blockquote>

It works because it's just another way of doing exactly the same thing.

Boro Nut