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Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 09:38 AM
Here is a simple shot that I think many people have problems with that can be made simpler by something I extracted out of one of the Houle Systems. I say "extracted" because he didn't tell me this one explicitly, but I realized it after we were going through one of his stick aiming methods.

It's a simle inside english three railer. I would say that 90% of all amateurs cannot shoot this shot with any confidence, even though in this case it's a very simple shot. Byrne shos it as "A Deceptive Shot" or something in the early pages of his Standard Book, but doesn't continue with anything else to it. It is a deceptive shot. And getting it up table is lost to many amateur players.

What's the easiest way? High inside english, firm follow through. Where to aim? Using whatever english you want for high inside, aim your stick so that its pointing to the direct center of the object ball. Fire away. Increase the distances. For sharper angles, you might end up changing your aim such that you would aim the tip to the right edge of the object ball.

Many people who already have no problem shooting this shot will look down and see that they are already doing what I describe above, but they just didn't realize it. Take a look next time.

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

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%Ap1L4%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pj6U5%Qq1B0%Rs1D6%U Q3Z8%Vn6D5
%Wo3D6%Xs0J4%Ys6C9%Zp5K7%[o2N4%\k2T6%eA9a1%_r7L1%`q6M2%ao9M7
)END

Fred

Edit note: Change word from "left" to "right"

Cueless Joey
06-21-2005, 11:10 AM
Wow! Thnx Fred.
I usually shoot this aiming with no english, then move my rear to apply english. Freeze then shoot.
I'll try this tonite.

Cane
06-21-2005, 11:15 AM
Fred, Any way you can cut that WEI table and paste it to MS paint so I can see it. If so, just email it to me at caneman@clnk.com. I can't view the WEI on my computer. Computer here is officially a piece of junk. NOTHING using ActiveX controls will view on it (and I've tried every fix and patch that I can find). It will be replaced the first of July, and I'll quit being a pain in the a$$ over the wei tables!

Thanks,
bob

SpiderMan
06-21-2005, 11:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> I usually shoot this aiming with no english, then move my rear to apply english. <hr /></blockquote>

No English? Don't try it with no Greeks! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

Fran Crimi
06-21-2005, 12:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>

What's the easiest way? High inside english, firm follow through. Where to aim? Using whatever english you want for high inside, aim your stick so that its pointing to the direct center of the object ball. Fire away. Increase the distances. For sharper angles, you might end up changing your aim such that you would aim the tip to the right edge of the object ball.

<hr /></blockquote>


So are you saying that speed, distance and amount of applied spin are all insignificant to the aiming point in pocketing a ball, providing the angle is the same?

Fran

Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 12:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>

What's the easiest way? High inside english, firm follow through. Where to aim? Using whatever english you want for high inside, aim your stick so that its pointing to the direct center of the object ball. Fire away. Increase the distances. For sharper angles, you might end up changing your aim such that you would aim the tip to the right edge of the object ball.

<hr /></blockquote>


So are you saying that speed, distance and amount of applied spin are all insignificant to the aiming point in pocketing a ball, providing the angle is the same?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>No, I'm saying that for this shot, where the final distance is uptable, then this would be a narrow angle, firm inside english shot. For this shot, I aim with my tip directed to the center of the object ball. For other narrow inside english shots where the squirt is the dominant factor, I also aim to the center of the object ball.

For longer shots with a slower speed such that swerve either dominates or cancels the swerve, then I'll aim different. But, that's a different shot.

For this shot, I think it would be a good idea for a player to see how much english you can use before it doesn't work. I think people will be pleasantly surprised at how many spots on the cueball you can hit with this method. Does it work if you go all the way to the edge of the cueball? Maybe not. Use regular BHE to see how different the aim would/should be.

Fred

Cueless Joey
06-21-2005, 12:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> I usually shoot this aiming with no english, then move my rear to apply english. <hr /></blockquote>

No English? Don't try it with no Greeks! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>
Boy, I set myself up for that one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Btw, Spidey, you look mighty cute em jeans. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Fran Crimi
06-21-2005, 01:10 PM
So if you shoot that shot from that distance at that angle at that speed with that amount of side, and aim center ob, you'll make the shot. If you adjust any of those variables by a 'variable' amount, still aiming center ob, you will still pocket the ball. However, if you adjust any of those variables by 'other' variable amounts, you will not pocket the ball.

So is that a system, or just a reference point for trial and error learning?

Fran

Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 01:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> So if you shoot that shot from that distance at that angle at that speed with that amount of side, and aim center ob, you'll make the shot. If you adjust any of those variables by a 'variable' amount, still aiming center ob, you will still pocket the ball. However, if you adjust any of those variables by 'other' variable amounts, you will not pocket the ball.

So is that a system, or just a reference point for trial and error learning?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>No, and I don't think I said any of that. There's no mention of any angle. Just "narrow." There's no mention of how much english, just "inside." I also didn't mention a specific speed. This is a squirt dominant shot. That is, there isn't much swerve in this particular shot to affect the shot. That covers a whole slew of shots, angles, and speeds that are within that umbrella of description.

As I said, if the player tries it out, they will be surprised at how many shots with position they will make by just aiming to the center of the object ball. That's a whole lot better than not being able to have the first clue to shoot it.

This is, as I as said, a narrow inside english shot. It is a squirt-dominated shot. Any other shot that is neither inside english, nor a narrow angle, nor squirt dominated is not this shot.

Please try it.

Fred

Fran Crimi
06-21-2005, 02:19 PM
I will try it, Fred. I did experiment with Hal's system about 2 years ago when he called me pretending not to be himself, explaining his system to me for a couple of hours on the phone. I don't know if he explained the whole thing or the basic premise.

From what I heard, I think it works very well as points of reference for trial and error learning.

Fran

Fred Agnir
06-21-2005, 02:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> From what I heard, I think it works very well as points of reference for trial and error learning.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>Certainly is possible. If someone has a good handle on two or six points, and can do the slight adjustment off of those points, that could be beneficial. Especially for those of us who are completely lost on certain shots.

Fred

Cane
06-21-2005, 03:04 PM
Fred, Thank you very much for the email. Excellent shot and one everyone should have in their arsenal for just about any pocket billiards game.

Thanks again,
Bob

Barbara
06-21-2005, 07:07 PM
Thanks Fred,

I do have that shot down pretty much, my big problem is this shot:

Show me the WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

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It's the high inside to travel 3/4 rails to get onto your next ball. I've done it a couple times and when executed, it's a beautiful shot worthy of notice. But I can't figure how to aim this shot consistently.

I would've tried your shot tonight, but had a graduation to attend. Would you still aim your shaft fully at the OB?

Barbara

Troy
06-21-2005, 09:19 PM
Just a thought...
Try aiming the center of the CB to the left edge of the OB with your tip a bit high on the horizontal center of the CB. Then pivot your backhand to obtain the desired amount of side spin.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Thanks Fred,

I do have that shot down pretty much, my big problem is this shot:

Show me the WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

START(
%AQ1O6%Br6H7%Pc1P2%Qp2T6%WD2D6%XP4N9%]R8P0%^b1P2%eC5a0

)END

It's the high inside to travel 3/4 rails to get onto your next ball. I've done it a couple times and when executed, it's a beautiful shot worthy of notice. But I can't figure how to aim this shot consistently.

I would've tried your shot tonight, but had a graduation to attend. Would you still aim your shaft fully at the OB?

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

Leviathan
06-22-2005, 01:01 AM
Quoting Fred Agnir: "For sharper angles, you might end up changing your aim such that you would aim the tip to the right edge of the object ball."

Hi, Fred: Am I missing something here? If one has to point the cue at a different spot on the ob to make a shot with a different cut angle, then you're just giving us an aiming recipe for shooting a specific shot, aren't you? I don't see that having such a recipe demonstrates the power of the Houle system, which is supposed to have more general applicability. (Or maybe it isn't--who the hell knows?)

AS

Fred Agnir
06-22-2005, 05:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Quoting Fred Agnir: "For sharper angles, you might end up changing your aim such that you would aim the tip to the right edge of the object ball."

Hi, Fred: Am I missing something here? If one has to point the cue at a different spot on the ob to make a shot with a different cut angle, then you're just giving us an aiming recipe for shooting a specific shot, aren't you? I don't see that having such a recipe demonstrates the power of the Houle system, which is supposed to have more general applicability. (Or maybe it isn't--who the hell knows?)

AS <hr /></blockquote> It is pretty general. After all, I just pretty much said that there are only two aiming points for a wide range of shots. One aiming point for narrow angles and one aiming point for steeper angles.

You'll hear that same theme in all of Hal's systems. One aim point for narrow shots and one aim point for steeper cuts.

Fred

Fred Agnir
06-22-2005, 05:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Thanks Fred,

I do have that shot down pretty much, my big problem is this shot:

Show me the WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

START(
%AQ1O6%Br6H7%Pc1P2%Qp2T6%WD2D6%XP4N9%]R8P0%^b1P2%eC5a0

)END

It's the high inside to travel 3/4 rails to get onto your next ball. <hr /></blockquote>
Couple things. Trust your stroke. So, in your practice routines, see where you miss. Adjust accordingly.

That being said, it looks like a low or center inside, not high inside. I aim with center ball and use BHE to find my new aim point. Fire away.

or

it's a steep angle, so any of the steep angle aim point systems should work (quarter to edge) for the first alignment. Back-hand english from there.

Fred

Leviathan
06-22-2005, 05:46 AM
Hi, Fred. I misunderstood completely--didn't realize you meant there are only two aiming points for a wide range of cuts. I'll be damned. It's hard to see how that could hold for long shots, but I don't really know anything about Houle's system (or systems?). All I've heard are incomplete secondhand explanations. Wish Houle would publish a clear account! I'm not looking for an aiming system for my own use, but I'm curious.

AS

Chopstick
06-22-2005, 06:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> If you adjust any of those variables by a 'variable' amount, still aiming center ob, you will still pocket the ball. However, if you adjust any of those variables by 'other' variable amounts, you will not pocket the ball.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>No, and I don't think I said any of that.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">I don't think I could say that. It feels like something is wiggling inside my head when I read it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color>

SpiderMan
06-22-2005, 08:07 AM
That's almost a exact copy of a shot I use in my warm-up. I place the object ball a little further from the rail, exactly one diamond up from the foot spot. I place the cueball on the head spot, and try to leave the cueball as close as possible to the corner pocket, without scratching. This warmup fine-tunes stroke, squirt compensation, and speed.

I play it with just a touch more low than straight inside, for medium-soft shooting. You have yours diagrammed with high inside, which looks like a scratch to me.

SpiderMan

dr_dave
06-22-2005, 11:10 AM
FYI to all:

I posted a description and analysis of the basic Hal Houle aiming system. It can be found on a new thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=198526&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1).

Regards,
Dave

Fred Agnir
06-26-2005, 05:38 AM
I needed to bring this thread to the top again because frankly I'm getting sick of discussing Hal's systems out of context.

Again, the beauty of many of Hal's systems are to give a point of aim for people who need it. And everyone needs it, some more than others.

Look at the shot I diagrammed. I watch 100's of league and recreational players. If I were to estimate, I would put it at 1-5% of all recreational players can shoot that shot with confidence. If anyone wants to tell be some number like 10% or higher, I will simply challenge you.

And what about the shot that Barbara put up? What did she say? "I don't know where to aim it?" Something like that??? And Barbara shoots well. But she has a problem with that particular shot. And that shot is one of the shots that determines whether or not you have a handle on the squirt of your cue. Hal's systems can help here.

Why anyone continues on talking about fractional aiming is beyond me, since Hal doesn't teach that. And to anyone else, I never would imply that anyone is "stupid" because they don't "get Hal systems." I'm frustrated that this board continues to talki about fractional aiming and Hal in the same sentence.

Take a look at my shot (Dr. Dave, especially). If you can honestly make that shot and position and all those like it without issue, then show us a shot you do have trouble on. I'll tell you whether or not Hal's systems will help. Scott and Randy will tell you whether or not your stroke needs tuning. Qtec will tell you something that had nothing to do with your post, since he misunderstood it anyway. Whitewolf will tell you that you are far too left-brained.

As John 'onepocketchump' said, the use of backhand english in Hal's systems separate it from the rest. This is so true. Two of his systems that I incorporate are based on backhand movement to get my final aim. Does that sound like fractional aiming to you?

Fred

tateuts
06-26-2005, 07:31 AM
I don't think there is any harm in a player using the systems described here so far. If it helps them pocket balls, that's the point. (This is not the same as the systems being taught out here, some of which are voodoo).

I aim by mentally connecting the cueball to the object ball to the pocket, then visualize any effect from aim and spin adjustments on the cueball. I've never discussed this with other players, but I assume most of us do the same. I play on such a tight table that my aim has to be right on. If my aim stops at the object ball, or is focused on the cueball, it will not be accuate enough.

I agree that a limited number of angles will pocket most shots. This is because pockets are relatively large. If someone wants to demonstrate exactly how inaccurate aiming by any technique like this (or any other method) truly is, they can set up some long combination shots. Combination shots are much less forgiving because they are "pinpoint precise" shots. The best combination players have precision control of the object ball's direction.

Personally, I would never use a system like this. However, if a player were to do do so, the question I have is: how do you select which angle of hit to use for a particular shot? Do you just learn what a 15 degree, 30 degree, etc looks like and select that aim?

Chris

HALHOULE
06-26-2005, 05:54 PM
Thank you very much, Fred, for shedding light on misconceptions formed by the majority of posters. I really do not blame them too much, for WE both know, it is an alien concept to them, and violates all that they have seen in books, tapes, lessons.

Fred, again, I am in your debt for making a valiant effort to clarify many points.

Many thanks again, Fred.

HAL HOULE

onepocketchump
06-26-2005, 09:26 PM
Fred, this is the kind of shot that I had trouble getting consistent shape with. Before Houle I would either miss the shot and get shape or make and not get the shape. Now, I can make this shot 99% of the time and get the shape I want probably 90% of the time.

What I have from Hal's systems is a plethora of new shots. These are shots that were out of my realm before.

The system you explain here is something that I showed to a friend of mine who is a HIGH LEVEL one pocket player. He uses it for the shots where he needs to apply inside english and has solved his issues with inside english.

John

Fred Agnir
06-27-2005, 06:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> the question I have is: how do you select which angle of hit to use for a particular shot? Do you just learn what a 15 degree, 30 degree, etc looks like and select that aim?

Chris <hr /></blockquote>Hi Chris. When you start with Hal's two basic aim starting points, the cut shots are shallow and steep (or narrow and sharp). And hopefully, we all have a sense of what is narrow and what is steep.

Fred

Cane
06-27-2005, 06:48 AM
Chris, For me, it only took a few practice sessions at the table with the first two systems Hal taught me before I just "knew" the angles and which ball to ball relationships to use with which angles. After a few more sessions, I just knew the angles for the bank shots, after a few more, I just 'knew' the angles for the mulitple rail banks. Now, I'm not saying that I can make the multiple rail bank shots with Hal's systems every time. I think any player knows that anytime you go to a cushion, esp to multiple cushions, that you're at the mercy of the cloth, humidity, condition of cushions, balls, and everything else under the sun. BUT, in a game like one pocket, I use one of Hal's systems that makes it much more simple for me to put any ball in any position on the table VERY close to my pocket using 2, 3, 4 and 5 rail positioning shots. Did that make sense???

Later,
Bob

Qtec
06-27-2005, 07:20 AM
Yes, that makes sense to me.

Qtec

tateuts
06-27-2005, 10:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> Chris, For me, it only took a few practice sessions at the table with the first two systems Hal taught me before I just "knew" the angles and which ball to ball relationships to use with which angles. After a few more sessions, I just knew the angles for the bank shots, after a few more, I just 'knew' the angles for the mulitple rail banks. Now, I'm not saying that I can make the multiple rail bank shots with Hal's systems every time. I think any player knows that anytime you go to a cushion, esp to multiple cushions, that you're at the mercy of the cloth, humidity, condition of cushions, balls, and everything else under the sun. BUT, in a game like one pocket, I use one of Hal's systems that makes it much more simple for me to put any ball in any position on the table VERY close to my pocket using 2, 3, 4 and 5 rail positioning shots. Did that make sense???

Later,
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

At some point in the future maybe we can get together and you can show me on a table. If you decide to go to the US Open let's get together.

Chris

SpiderMan
06-27-2005, 11:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> Thank you very much, Fred, for shedding light on misconceptions formed by the majority of posters. I really do not blame them too much, for WE both know, it is an alien concept to them, and violates all that they have seen in books, tapes, lessons.

Fred, again, I am in your debt for making a valiant effort to clarify many points.

Many thanks again, Fred.

HAL HOULE
<hr /></blockquote>

No disrespect intended, but nothing discussed so far appears to be unique, or to violate my prior experience.

I do not challenge the results. I will, however, continue to debate anyone who proposes that it defies physics.

This is neither magic, rocket science, nor perpetual motion, and does not need to be any of the above in order to be usefully applied. But when you achieve more than one outcome from the same aiming, based on what outcome is "needed", I'm going to label that "compensation". What's so bad about that?

SpiderMan

HALHOULE
06-29-2005, 01:44 AM
SPIDER MAN, HOW MANY ANGLES CAN YOU MANAGE WITH TWO AIM POINTS?

HAL

silverbullet
06-29-2005, 06:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr>
I aim by mentally connecting the cueball to the object ball to the pocket, then visualize any effect from aim and spin adjustments on the cueball. I've never discussed this with other players, but I assume most of us do the same.


Chris <hr /></blockquote>

Sounds like the 'string theory' in quantum physics or something like that. just kidding. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Laura

raodwarior
06-29-2005, 11:31 AM
I'll just chime in Quickly, but thanks to Hal and Tom Simpson I can make all the angles with just ONE aiming point, and that includes banks. I also teach a modified fractional system to my students and have had wonderful success.

Mavis
06-29-2005, 12:48 PM
Fred and Hal haven't even touched on what I consider to be the greatest advantage of a "stick" aiming system.

That is.................speed control.

The stick is the only thing you have REAL control over and what you do with it has everything to do with a shot (make or miss; and that effects the proper tangent line or not; and that effects proper speed or not)

Once you learn to aim with a "stick system" your speed control judgement will improve dramatically (unless you're already a champion). Why? Because every shot gets reduced to a 2" to 8" (approx) movement of the stick on the line in which it is aimed. Determine the line. Move the stick 4" down the line. Incredible accuracy on pocketing balls. Incredible speed control.

You'll be able, in a small amount of time after some practice, to make precise judgements on the "length" to stroke the cue down the line, versus "how hard or soft to hit".

A solid B player can become an A player very quickly with this systme and some practice.

yegon
07-03-2005, 01:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Here is a simple shot that I think many people have problems with that can be made simpler by something I extracted out of one of the Houle Systems. I say "extracted" because he didn't tell me this one explicitly, but I realized it after we were going through one of his stick aiming methods.

It's a simle inside english three railer. I would say that 90% of all amateurs cannot shoot this shot with any confidence, even though in this case it's a very simple shot. Byrne shos it as "A Deceptive Shot" or something in the early pages of his Standard Book, but doesn't continue with anything else to it. It is a deceptive shot. And getting it up table is lost to many amateur players.

What's the easiest way? High inside english, firm follow through. Where to aim? Using whatever english you want for high inside, aim your stick so that its pointing to the direct center of the object ball. Fire away. Increase the distances. For sharper angles, you might end up changing your aim such that you would aim the tip to the right edge of the object ball.

Many people who already have no problem shooting this shot will look down and see that they are already doing what I describe above, but they just didn't realize it. Take a look next time.

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

START(
%Ap1L4%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pj6U5%Qq1B0%Rs1D6%U Q3Z8%Vn6D5
%Wo3D6%Xs0J4%Ys6C9%Zp5K7%[o2N4%\k2T6%eA9a1%_r7L1%`q6M2%ao9M7
)END

Fred

Edit note: Change word from "left" to "right" <hr /></blockquote>

thank's for this shot. I used it 3 times in a torunament today without ever practicing it and it worked every time.

I am curios about the system you extrapolated this shot from, how does it work? I read some hints from other users but they are just hints, nothing specific.

Fred Agnir
07-04-2005, 06:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote yegon:</font><hr> thank's for this shot. I used it 3 times in a torunament today without ever practicing it and it worked every time.

I am curios about the system you extrapolated this shot from, how does it work? I read some hints from other users but they are just hints, nothing specific. <hr /></blockquote> I'll PM you when I have a free moment.

Fred

yegon
07-05-2005, 08:37 AM
Thank you, I look forward to it. I am unfortunatelly unable to contact Mr. Houle directly through phone as some have suggested, I live on the other end of the world and I am not that good in english to be able to communicate in any other way than this forum where I have (and need) plenty of time to write and read messages.

HALHOULE
07-05-2005, 09:15 AM
You mention speed control and lengths of cue stick stroke. The aiming process is not evident. You mention incredible aiming accuracy. Where is the aiming system?

hal