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06-13-2002, 02:58 AM
You know, what amazes me more then anything else about the incredibly long thread I just read about the Tony Robles fundraiser is that all you guys are arguing with oneanother using annonymous usernames even though you probably already know oneanother. All of this hostility and blunt remarks while hiding behind a mask, HOW BOLD! With all due respect, lets take the masks off and use this forum in the manner it was meant to be used which means taking responsibility for what you say.

With that said, I'd like to point out that the moment the Tony Robles fundraiser advertisement left the confines of Corner Billiards, the organizers opened the door to opinions that might not be consistent with theirs or those that associate themselves with Corner Billiards. This is a plain and simple truth and there's nothing that can be done about that. Tony Robles is well-regarded at Corner Billiards but there are other players throughout the city that are also revered and those people who are asked to contribute will wonder why these names have not been mentioned.

No matter how George SanSoucci was introduced into this fundraiser is pointless. He is another player from New York City who plans on attending the World Championship which will undoubtedly cost something. By participating in the event, anyone who plans to contribute has the right to ask if money will also be given to Ginky. If so, why? and if not, why not? Recycling rumors, no matter how reliable the source, is reckless and frankly, none of our business and betrays the very person who confided in you with such information. I seriously doubt they wanted it repeated on Billiards Digest's discussion board.

However, certain things DO need to be addressed. How much money needs to be raised? What will the money cover? What will happen if there is a surplus of money? These are important LEGAL questions. Likely, there will be a surplus. If anything, adding George SanSoucci to the cause actually simplifies things more then most might think because this fundraiser will not be profitable but that isn't reaally the issue here, is it?

I don't want to be misunderstood here. In fact, I was one of the first persons to post a message arguing that Tony should have been invited in the first place (www.worldpoolchampionship.com) and I'm very happy that Tony would receive such support. Unfortunately, I'm also a bit embarrassed that those that wish to support Tony can do nothing but bicker, whine and castrate fellow New Yorkers simply for voicing their concerns. I don't think anyone will argue that Tony has done wonders for the sport and we'd all like to see him there. THAT'S THE POINT! That's what's important and that's what should be remembered. Perhaps an organized fundraiser was not the best idea. Perhaps it would have been best if we all agreed to meet Tony on our own terms and donate what we could without all the politics but then again, would we have emptied our wallets in such a scenario? I doubt it. To a certain extent, we all ask the question, "What's in it for me?" A free sandwich, soda, table-time and a (recently canceled) pro-match. We want something for our money, right? Some donation you got there.

The bottom line is, we should all remember that we are New Yorkers. Let us not embarrass ourselves with annonymous posts and internal bickering. There is a cause in mind and that cause is to retain the World Championship Title and send one of the greatest players on the planet to do just that! Mika brought it back last year and hopefully, one of our own will bring it back again. We'd all like to see Tony go and represent our city but let's not forget, WE REPRESENT OUR CITY TOO! EVERY DAY!!! Let's not forget that, especially when we're posting on this board. Haven't we learned anything this past year?

Jude M. Rosenstock

06-13-2002, 03:26 AM
Jude, I agree with much of what you write. However, I think the reason many people are writing anonymously is precisely BECAUSE everyone knows each other. This is a very delicate issue. And while in a perfect world everyone could share his opinion honestly and openly, in the real world attaching names to posts in this thread can carry a lot of future baggage.

(By the way, I have stayed out of this issue to date, and really don't plan to start anytime soon.)

- Steve

stickman
06-13-2002, 08:42 AM
As an outsider, I don't know all the politics involved here. At the same time, I'm am not swayed by personal predjudices or biases. This all looks terribly rediculous to an outsider. Originally a fundraiser was setup to help Tony. To my knowledge, it was never represented as being anything else. This was an honorable and well intended undertaking. Now, abcer seems to perceive an injustice being done to Ginky. Geez, isn't this Ginky's decision to make? The implication is that Ginky shouldn't be involved unless there's something in it for him. (abcer's implication, not Ginky's) If abcer was truely concerned with helping Ginky, why not setup some sort of fundraiser for him rather than trying to tarnish the appearance of the Roble effort by repeated questions and the implication of some sort of impropriety. From the perspective of an outsider looking in, it appears that something good has been turned into petty bickering and some sort of local turf war. How sad.

06-13-2002, 09:54 AM
Steve:

It's one thing to write or post anonymously or nearly so (posting under a pen name) when writing something like, 'Use low left on that shot.' Or 'Bake the cake at 350 degrees for two hours.' Or 'Macs rul, pcs sux.'

It's a much different thing when a writer keeps themselves hidden from view as they attempt to manipulate a 'charity' event while, in this case, also trafficking in rumors, gossip and confidences. Not only are they using information which is publicly inaccessible, and cannot be easily verified by most observers and participants, they are also placing themselves 'beyond responsibility' for what they say and do. Typically, maintaining anonymity greatly benefits the person who wishes to remain anonymous.

You noticed the latter point when you wrote: 'This is a very delicate issue. And while in a perfect world everyone could share his opinion honestly and openly, in the real world attaching names to posts in this thread can carry a lot of future baggage.'

Right you are, and carrying this 'future baggage' is precisely what taking responsibility for one's actions means in this and all similar cases. In a perfectly just and good world taking a public stand on a controversial issue would be a trivial thing. In this imperfect world, not only is taking a public stand on a controversial issue a significant act, because it will likely have consequences, it is also a requirement if one wishes to be taken seriously. It is the risks one is willing to take and the consequences that one is willing to bear that proves the authenticity of one's intentions and provides weight to what one says and does.

Clearly, the gossipmongers and manipulators are unwilling to take any risks. Fine. They have a right do hide in the shadows. On the other hand, how seriously should anyone take what they say on this matter?


Steve Zielinski

Nostroke
06-13-2002, 09:59 AM
I know I'm just a humble Brown Bear expert but IMO that says it best Stickman!! No BS Just the pertinent facts.

Its amazing that some people can find something wrong with friends helping a friend. Then stir it all up publicly by injecting things that are not relevant, tarnishing a good thing!

The only saving grace is that it is apparently just one malcontent who is making most of the noise. Too bad we all couldn't just ignore him.

Vapros
06-13-2002, 11:08 AM
Jude, that was an excellent thought and a fine post. I did note one comment that could be corrected. Even the New Yorkers have not yet stooped (good word)to castrating one another, as far as I know. I have seen some castigating, however, among 'em.

No offense intended - they are very similar words.

9 Ball Girl
06-13-2002, 11:24 AM
As a close friend of Tony's, I can tell you guys that he is very touched and grateful that this is all being done for him (IMO I think it's also well deserved).

But at this point, I think it just all boils down to this: If you want to support this whole thing, then go to Corner Billiards on Saturday and have fun. That would be cool.

If for some reason you don't want to support it because of whatever "ethics" (there's that word again) or "doing the right/wrong thing" is, however "delicate" the situation, then that would be cool too. Everyone's entitled to his/her own opinion.

That said, I'll see you all on Saturday!

06-13-2002, 11:39 AM
Steve, these types of threads (rumor mongering) don't work very well, because of the following reasons:

1. Most people who post are not fully informed of the facts.

2. Those that are, should NOT post (and mostly haven't) unless they have clearance from the principals.

3. The first two items virtually guarantee that wrong information will be posted.

All I'll additionally write is that, because of these things, posting anonymously or not isn't a tremendous deal. Most of the posts shouldn't have been made in the first place, IMO, simply because this is one issue where it's really nobody's business but Corner's, Tony's, and Ginky's.

- Steve Lipsky

06-13-2002, 01:48 PM
How about inviting Dennis Hatch? He could give Robles or SanSoucci the seven ball.

06-13-2002, 01:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> How about inviting Dennis Hatch? He could give Robles or SanSoucci the seven ball. <hr></blockquote>

And then rob them at gunpoint after the event.

06-13-2002, 02:40 PM
"Haven't we learned anything this past year?"

Jude, if you're talking about 9-11...yep, I'd say we learned a few things. So did the rest of the world.

I've stayed away from this discussion myself up until now.
OK, here's my 2 cents since I happen to live in NY, and Corner Billiards is my home room, and I consider Tony my friend.

I think any player has a right to seek out sponsorship money to get to an event, or in this case, maybe several events. Why not? People don't often come knocking at your door with money in hand. You have to let them know that you're looking for a sponsor(s). Nothing at all wrong with that. The pros do it all the time.

So if Tony were to organize a little sponsor-raising party for himself, I think that would be great.

This whole concept of "fundraiser," and someone else raising money on Tony's behalf starts to look like a charity thing rather than what it's intended to be.

From what I gather, it's apparently being organized into this gala event, with guest appearances and exhibitions...who needs who and who doesn't need who anymore. What's up with all that?

Get on the phone, make a few calls, pass the word around that you're trying to raise sponsors for your trip to Europe. If you want to have a little get-togeher for your new sponsors, great.

I happen to LOVE the thought of Tony being announced at the World Championships as being sponsored by the pool players of New York City. What a great idea! I just woulda wished he would have taken the initiative and did it himself. No one would fault him for that.

It just looks better than all this charity stuff.

Fran

ted harris
06-13-2002, 05:03 PM
Unregistered,
Despite having been a player that has used my cue, he could not give up that kind of weight to Ginky or Tony and win. If you would like to stake that game, I am sure it can be arrranged. Just thought you should know that while all three were using my cue, Dennis reached a year end ranking of #2, Ginky to #9, and Tony #25. I was making Dennis a cue when he got into trouble, Ginky still uses his at times, and I am sure Tony would still be using his if Richie Ambrose had not stolen it from while he was in Vegas a couple of years ago. Nevertheless, the game can be arranged.

06-13-2002, 05:15 PM
Fran, I get the feeling that you assume I disagree with you. I don't. In fact, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm simply embarrassed by all the negative attention this has gotten and that's coming from both sides of the fence. You're right, things really should have been kept to a minimum.

Jude M. Rosenstock

06-13-2002, 05:32 PM
Dennis Hatch has a criminal record,something to do with drug dealing.I don't think he is allowed to leave the country.

06-13-2002, 06:21 PM
It's not that I don't agree with you as a whole, Jude. If there's anything I don't especially agree with it's the part with your reference to how we're all New Yorkers and didn't we all learn from 9-11? I think you went a bit over the top there.

We're both definitely on the same page in that this fund-raiser concept should have been thought through a little more.

Fran

06-13-2002, 10:08 PM
You know, that's rather interesting when you think about it. You made reference to one particular sentence in my post of several paragraphs and gave a slight impression that you were in complete disagreement with my opinion in regards to the primary topic. Of course, when one reads on, you realize that it's quite the contrary. I didn't jump to conclusions, in a way, asked for an explanation and you responded in kind.

I think that's remarkably similar to what's going on throughout the Robles thread. I don't think anyone is against the concept of a fundraiser and the accusations that have been going on (amongst others, not us) only serve to incite both sides of the issue when in reality, the central point is agreed. Tony should go to England and any support he may receive is wonderful.

Personally, since September 11, I have taken on a greater appreciation of what's important. I pick my battles carefully and believe that controversy really isn't a healthy daily practice. I didn't mean to offend anyone. I simply wanted to illustrate that while we spend the majority of our day, discussing mundane issues such as whether to break from the box or not, there are important things going on throughout the world. It is a testiment to how wonderful this country is but at the same time, it's still odd. Saturday afternoon, this will all be over. The Tony Robles debate will be moot. I only hope that we don't start hating one another. That would be the last thing Tony Robles would want out of all this.

Take care,

Jude M. Rosenstock

06-13-2002, 11:10 PM
Thanks, I hope that in light of the recent change in events that this discussion will dissipate.

Jude M. Rosenstock

CarolNYC
06-14-2002, 03:46 AM
Hey Jude,
I've read some of the posts-the bottom line is, if a friend needs help,friends will help-tomorrows Saturday-see you tomorrow!
Carol

06-14-2002, 02:45 PM
However, I would like to point out that both of you are posting under your actual names and having a discussion in a civil manner. That alone is worth something. It says something about both of you as individuals and it keeps both of you in line. I understand what you're saying Lipsky (so that we don't get confused) and can appreciate how someone might want to express an opinion without any repercussions but the whole darn thread is cluttered with the annonymous! It's an annonymous argument and the direction it has taken will eventually hurt everyone.

You brought up an interesting point though. Most of us do not know all the facts. In fact, I'm all but certain none of us do. Definately not me and in all likelihood, not even Ginky. If people come here looking for answers, they've come to the wrong place. People are going to have to make their decision to go on their own.

For those that have mixed feelings about it, one person suggested purchasing a lesson from Tony in advance. I thought that was an excellent idea for anyone riding the fence.

Jude M. Rosenstock

06-14-2002, 03:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jude Rosenstock:</font><hr> However, I would like to point out that both of you are posting under your actual names and having a discussion in a civil manner. That alone is worth something. It says something about both of you as individuals and it keeps both of you in line.

[snip]

Jude M. Rosenstock <hr></blockquote>

Jude:

Well, I believe Steve L has no real problem staying in line and acting civily while Steve Z seems capable of p***ing people off no matter what name he uses!

Anyway, one potential fact is slowly becoming a completed reality -- the death of a rather destructive discussion. One can only hope that the end comes quickly and painlessly!

Steve Z

06-14-2002, 03:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: ted harris:</font><hr> Unregistered,
Despite having been a player that has used my cue, he could not give up that kind of weight to Ginky or Tony and win. If you would like to stake that game, I am sure it can be arrranged. Just thought you should know that while all three were using my cue, Dennis reached a year end ranking of #2, Ginky to #9, and Tony #25. I was making Dennis a cue when he got into trouble, Ginky still uses his at times, and I am sure Tony would still be using his if Richie Ambrose had not stolen it from while he was in Vegas a couple of years ago. Nevertheless, the game can be arranged. <hr></blockquote>

If you know them all close then you know Dennis could most probably beat either of them for the cash. But he would probably dump the game also for the cash. (Especially if it were my cash.)

06-14-2002, 04:18 PM
As an original supporter of this event and a supporter of both Tony and George for many years I will decline the invite tommorow and support Tony on our terms not the terms of the egomaniacs that started this event. Paulie

06-14-2002, 05:27 PM
Not if he's still in trouble with the law, he can't.

Last I knew, he was arrested for B&amp;E.

CarolNYC
06-15-2002, 04:43 AM
Paulie,
I agree and respect that decision! Absolutely!This is one of the best solutions I've read!:)
Carol

07-22-2002, 12:52 PM
Dennis has fooled a lot of people on the pool world. Both him and his father could have made millions if they would have just been honest and not tried cheating everyone out of anything. I have known Dennis for over ten years and I have been closely involved with him for the past three. As embarrassed as I am about the fact that I even know him, he is getting everything he deserves. He is in fact not allowed to leave the state of New York. He isn't allowed in the state of North Carolina until 2005 and probably will not get out of jail until 2006-2007. His father will be in jail until 2017 which might as well be the rest of his life.

I truly believes that was goes around comes around and it is really coming around for Dennis and his father. Once very controlling and talented people are now confined to jail where they cannot hurt or steal from anyone!

DEADSTOKE32
07-23-2002, 03:43 PM
TONY ROBLES PRO OR NOT HE IS STIIL AND ALWAYS BE HOMIE FO' LIFE..AND YOU CAN TAKE THAT 2 THE BANK,,,,,,,,,,,