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View Full Version : What's wrong with the ghost ball system? *DELETED* *DELETED*



Cueless Joey
06-27-2005, 10:08 PM
Post deleted by Cueless Joey

Scott Lee
06-27-2005, 10:11 PM
Joey...In a word, NOTHING! At some point it becomes an issue of different strokes (systems) for different folks.
Some people really love the S.A.M. method of aiming, and other use ghost ball or other ideas. They all work.

Scott

DickLeonard
06-28-2005, 04:56 AM
Scott I always used my version of the Ghost ball system it always worked for me as attested by Johnny Ervolino saying forty years later that he never saw anybody that could cut balls backwards like me.

I always found that I would miss by the thoughts in my mind not by where I aimed. Trying to tell myself hold the cue this way, release the cue this way,SPFF doesn't work until it is ingrained into your game,mind.

When I was playing all the time if I changed any part of my game, I wouldn't play anyone for at least two weeks so that the change was permament. Otherwise you would fall back into your old ways and in the confusion of mind and body chaos would rain.####

Fred Agnir
06-28-2005, 05:34 AM
The biggest problem is that you have to guess where the ghost ball, the proper ghost ball is to begin with. Consider cut-induced throw. Where do you aim the ghost ball? What's the difference in cut-induced throw between a 15 shot and a 20 shot? Is it 5 or is it more or less?

And what about using english? What method do you use to find the appropriate ghost ball? Aren't you using rote? These are the issues with all Geometrically Correct aiming methods. Geometry isn't as important as physics and optics. In fact, if one relies on geometry as their aim method, they will be forever stuck in the mire of mediocrity.

Most will adjust their aim away from the Geometrically Correct Ghostball, but will swear they're still using the ghostball. That's not really ghostball aiming anymore. It's shooting by feel. Which isn't bad, but it isn't ghostball aiming.

Fred

BoroNut
06-28-2005, 01:18 PM
Ghost balls are OK for instructing beginners who dont immediately see the obvious way to make a ball go where they want. You know, the sort who need to be told which way to turn the wheel on their first driving lesson. Yes. I do mean you.

It's also the default response of all the pro's when asked 'How do you aim a ball' when the question they hear is 'How can I aim a ball'. I can't believe any pro aims this way. It's accurate enough over short distances, but even Fred's systems are more accurate beyond that.

Boro Nut

Cueless Joey
06-28-2005, 03:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BoroNut:</font><hr> Ghost balls are OK for instructing beginners who dont immediately see the obvious way to make a ball go where they want. You know, the sort who need to be told which way to turn the wheel on their first driving lesson. Yes. I do mean you.

It's also the default response of all the pro's when asked 'How do you aim a ball' when the question they hear is 'How can I aim a ball'. I can't believe any pro aims this way. It's accurate enough over short distances, but even Fred's systems are more accurate beyond that.

Boro Nut <hr /></blockquote>
Is a spot shot a short distance shot?
I would bet more of them imagine the the two balls colliding than pointing the tip at the edge of the ob.

sneakypapi
06-28-2005, 04:58 PM
You know something I am not sure what the apporiate name of my aiming system is. Basically, sometimes I draw a mental line from the angle of the object ball to the pocket, other times I will not draw the line but use the edge of the object ball and then estimate the angle into the pocket. When I was at Valley Forge I tried "The Spider" laser aiming device, but found it difficult using it because I felt I had to aim at "ghost ball" and not the actually edge of the object ball. I think those systems can help beginners, but I would bet many pros do not use the ghost ball aiming, if I am wrong any pros please let me know.

BoroNut
06-28-2005, 05:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr>Is a spot shot a short distance shot?
I would bet more of them imagine the the two balls colliding than pointing the tip at the edge of the ob. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know what a spot shot is. I know I can pot the pink off it's spot from the green or yellow spot more times than I'll miss on a snooker table. That's well over six feet to the pink and another four feet to the pocket. The sweet spot on the pink is about 3/4 of a millimetre, and viewed obliquely from the cue ball position is about half a millimetre, meaning I've got about 0.04 of cue angle to play with to pot it cleanly. It's slightly wider than half ball so I don't have that luxury either. If you think I can see that tiny spot never mind hit it when it's not even on the line that I'm cueing you seriously overestimate my abilities. I just aim down the line that makes the ball go in the pocket and cue like a swiss watch. I suspect all pros do the same.

Boro Nut

DickLeonard
06-29-2005, 06:17 AM
Fred,Fred,Fred, my tip and ferrule measure 1 1/8 inches, all you do is aim with your cuetip under the outside edge of the object ball and there is your ghostball.

If you are hitting the ball with inside English you aim at the contact point and if your using outside English you aim at the same point as centerball. The only variable is hitting the cueball hard, some adjustment is needed.

I hate sharing trade secrets.####

jpeters
06-29-2005, 07:26 AM
I have noticed recently many posts regarding aiming. The system I use is the picture as a whole. Not necessrily the edge or the ghost ball but the picture as a whole of the cue ball and the object ball together at the contact point. Again sorry, but not to post any advertising for TW and the BSACA but this is the method I learned there and the one that works perfectly for me. Shoot to the picture, not the pocket or edge or ghost. I know before I shoot what the picture should look like when the cue ball arrives at the object ball. This was developed with Tim at the Billiard Sanctuary when I was there. The Angles to Truth showes the image in real form and the ghost image at the same time. You are shooting at an image you see and an image you want to create with the shot as a ghost image. It took about 5 shots at each picture to learn them for each of us then Tim covered the entire backdrop and we all shot at the picture. 90% of the shots went in center pocket. We did not know until we heard the balls fall into the pocket by the sound only. As I practice at home I feel my self seeing the picture much clearer each time. Almost like slow motion rolling of the cue ball and then stopping at the object ball to form the picture I want. This also helped my speed control because the faster I hit the ball the more difficult it is to see the picture. It is really quite amazing.

Cueless Joey
06-29-2005, 08:43 AM
That sounds like a winner to me.

tjlmbklr
06-29-2005, 03:03 PM
I am sorry, I just want an easy answer to a difficult question; What are everyones favorite aiming systems. I will be the first to admit I only know of the basic. And also if all could let me know what resourses are the best instructional on your picks.

Billy
06-29-2005, 04:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Fred,Fred,Fred, my tip and ferrule measure 1 1/8 inches, all you do is aim with your cuetip under the outside edge of the object ball and there is your ghostball.

If you are hitting the ball with inside English you aim at the contact point and if your using outside English you aim at the same point as centerball. The only variable is hitting the cueball hard, some adjustment is needed.

I hate sharing trade secrets.#### <hr /></blockquote>


can't take em' with you /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

put all your notes together as a booklet of sorts and put a price tag on it?

good information from experienced players would be invaluable to many

jmo

theinel
06-30-2005, 06:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>Most will adjust their aim away from the Geometrically Correct Ghostball, but will swear they're still using the ghostball. That's not really ghostball aiming anymore. It's shooting by feel. Which isn't bad, but it isn't ghostball aiming.<hr /></blockquote>
I have to agree with you on this one Fred. When people say that they use the ghost ball they are just talking about their starting point. Depending on lots of other factors (distances, cut angles, english, etc.) adjustments are made so they are actually using feel/rote/experience.

dave
06-30-2005, 10:39 PM
The different aiming systems aren't mutually exclusive. One isn't right or another wrong. Some work better in some situations and others work better in another. Often it is beneficial to use one or more in combination with another as an additional verification of your choice. They each have advantages and disadvantages in certain situations. My only point is that posters shouldn't come away with the opinion that there is only one correct way to aim as a result of the debates of the pros and cons of a particular system. I like to remember what Mark Wilson continually tries to impress upon people; which is that most missed shots are not the result of your choice of aiming system but rather imperfections in the mechanics of your stroke delivery.

HALHOULE
07-06-2005, 07:01 AM
NEVER TRIED A GHOST BALL, NEVER TRIED A CONTACT POINT. COULD NOT SEE THEM. AT MY AGE OF 81, I HAVE TO PLAY THIS GAME AS SIMPLY AS I CAN. SO, I JUST ROLL THE CENTER OF THE CUE BALL AT THE EDGE OF THE OBJECT BALL, FOR EVERYTHING, CAROMS, COMBINATIONS, BANKS, POCKETING.

HAL

HALHOULE
07-06-2005, 07:12 AM
TIM WHITE CHARGED $900, DID YOU PAY THAT?

Voodoo Daddy
07-06-2005, 07:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Scott I always used my version of the Ghost ball system it always worked for me as attested by Johnny Ervolino saying forty years later that he never saw anybody that could cut balls backwards like me.

I always found that I would miss by the thoughts in my mind not by where I aimed. Trying to tell myself hold the cue this way, release the cue this way,SPFF doesn't work until it is ingrained into your game,mind.

When I was playing all the time if I changed any part of my game, I wouldn't play anyone for at least two weeks so that the change was permament. Otherwise you would fall back into your old ways and in the confusion of mind and body chaos would rain.#### <hr /></blockquote>

Johnny did tell me about your backcutting ability years ago ####. The ghost ball is a effective tool for cutting balls...I use Johnny's "Clock" system along with the ghostball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif