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View Full Version : Fun with Dr. Dave's "peace sign"



Billy_Bob
06-30-2005, 06:35 AM
I sometimes play pool with other players who already "know everything" there is to know about pool.

They are not the least bit interested in learning anything new. If anyone tries to teach these people anything, they will reject anything they have to say.

Well something interesting has happened! I have been playing my game, keeping the things I learn to myself, but have recently been using Dr. Dave's peace sign. (To see where the cue ball will go - 30 degree rule.)

When I'm playing with an entirely new set of players (league play), who have not seen me do this yet, they all react the same way.

The stages of wonderment...

First they look at me like a bunch of monkeys seeing something curious. They stare with their mouths open and wonder what I am doing.

Next they will make fun of me. One or two of them will laugh whenever I hold up my "peace sign".

Then after about an hour or two of this, they can't stand it any longer! One of them will get up enough nerve to come over and ask me what in the heck I am doing.

The first time this happened, I started to explain what I was doing, then one of the players from my team told me not to tell him, and to not give away my "secrets"! (I was thinking what secret? Geeze this stuff is in BD and all over the internet!)

I patiently explained that this other player had helped me in the past with advice and I was just returning the favor.

Then the more and more I used the peace sign, and the more and more other players asked me what I was doing, I realized I would need to come up with some sort of answer. I realized that they would not be interested in learning about the 30 degree rule, as that would be in the "learning something new category"...

So I have just been telling them that it is 30 degrees and leaving it at that. Then they walk away with a confused look on their face.

Only one person persisted in questioning me further, so I told him the whole shebang. He is now using the peace sign as well.

I have realized I am on to something good here! That being; doing strange things with my fingers while lining up the shot. Why not use my entire hand? I could hold out all my fingers, and maybe count one, two, three with my other finger pointing at each finger as I count. Then maybe next time count to 4. Then maybe next time count to 2. This should peak their curiosity. (Of course I would just be looking at the peace sign part of my fingers and the rest would just be for "show".)

Hummm... Maybe I could even get my elbows into all of this. I'll explain that I'm "checking all the angles".

I''ll be known as the human protractor!

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with B.S."

BigRigTom
06-30-2005, 07:58 AM
That is a great story Billy_Bob and you have a good idea on how to have fun while accomplishing something too.
You can Razzle Dazzle Them and maybe even sign that song that Richard Gere sang in Chicago.
According to his song "They'll Love Ya!" and it all just a "SHOW!"

bluey2king
06-30-2005, 08:02 AM
Billy Bob
I think the reason people are asking you now about what you are doing is. That they respect you and the way you play. Some I am sure have seen the improvement in your game. If you want to share with them is up to you, but think about your Honor and how nice it is to be thought of as a Good Honorable player. The respect you have gained is worth more than any trophy. All that could be flushed with gaming tactics.
IMHO

Cane
06-30-2005, 08:11 AM
I don't use the peace sign (if you have arthritis you can't make a 30 peace sign), but many times, I'll get on the far side of the OB and put my finger on the cushion where the CB is going to travel from my OB, whether it's for a stop shot, follow, natural roll, or whatever. A couple of weeks ago, I was playing a match in a pool room in Fort Smith and we had a few rail birds, I was lining up off of the OB and had my finger on the rail. I didn't like that, so I moved my finger a little bit for a more firm shot. He was trying to whisper, but I heard one of the railbirds say "He don't ever aim at the pocket. He just aims so he can make the cue ball go where he wants it and spins the ball to the pocket." I just smiled to myself and let them believe it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Bob

dr_dave
06-30-2005, 10:12 AM
Billy_Bob,

I get a similar response when I deploy my "secret weapon." At first, people think: "What the heck are you doing?" Then they proceed to make fun of it: "Look, I'm holding up my fingers like Dr. Dave. Ha! Ha! Ha!" However, after they continually see me use it to run through "traffic" during precision position play, pull off carom and billiard shots that they didn't even think possible, break up clusters, avoid obstacle balls, and avoid scratches, then they get quiet and start trying to figure out what I'm doing. Now, as soon as they ask, I am more than happy to explain it to them. As you can probably tell, I have no desire to keep it secret. In fact, I love sharing the peace-sign technique, because I am very proud of it. Because the technique is so visual and physical, it is very easy to use, and you don't need to know all of the math and physics behind it to use it (although, I like the fact that the technique IS backed up and made possible by sound math and physics). And for people who like hypnotic suggestion, there's also an easy-to-remember, poetic, triggering chant:

If you let one finger stay,
The other finger points the way.
Peace.

For people who haven't tried it yet or want more information, here are some resources:

- April-July'04 and Feb-June'05 BD instructional articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html).

- video demonstrations NV 3.8-3.10, 7.4, and A.1 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/index.html).

- online CCB discussion concerning the 30 degree rule (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html).

- pages 48-56, 115-120, 147-152, 205-209 in my book (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/book_description.html).

- for the nerdy engineers and physicists out there that want to know why it works, you can see all of the gory math and physics details in TP 3.3, A.4, A.6, and A.8 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/index.html).

"Peace" and Godspeed,
Dave

PS: If anybody accuses me of being overly analytical or being stuck in "analysis paralysis" with the 30 degree rule "peace sign" technique, they obviously don't know how powerful the technique is and how easy it is to visualize and apply.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> I sometimes play pool with other players who already "know everything" there is to know about pool.

They are not the least bit interested in learning anything new. If anyone tries to teach these people anything, they will reject anything they have to say.

Well something interesting has happened! I have been playing my game, keeping the things I learn to myself, but have recently been using Dr. Dave's peace sign. (To see where the cue ball will go - 30 degree rule.)


When I'm playing with an entirely new set of players (league play), who have not seen me do this yet, they all react the same way.

The stages of wonderment...

First they look at me like a bunch of monkeys seeing something curious. They stare with their mouths open and wonder what I am doing.

Next they will make fun of me. One or two of them will laugh whenever I hold up my "peace sign".

Then after about an hour or two of this, they can't stand it any longer! One of them will get up enough nerve to come over and ask me what in the heck I am doing.

The first time this happened, I started to explain what I was doing, then one of the players from my team told me not to tell him, and to not give away my "secrets"! (I was thinking what secret? Geeze this stuff is in BD and all over the internet!)

I patiently explained that this other player had helped me in the past with advice and I was just returning the favor.

Then the more and more I used the peace sign, and the more and more other players asked me what I was doing, I realized I would need to come up with some sort of answer. I realized that they would not be interested in learning about the 30 degree rule, as that would be in the "learning something new category"...

So I have just been telling them that it is 30 degrees and leaving it at that. Then they walk away with a confused look on their face.

Only one person persisted in questioning me further, so I told him the whole shebang. He is now using the peace sign as well.

I have realized I am on to something good here! That being; doing strange things with my fingers while lining up the shot. Why not use my entire hand? I could hold out all my fingers, and maybe count one, two, three with my other finger pointing at each finger as I count. Then maybe next time count to 4. Then maybe next time count to 2. This should peak their curiosity. (Of course I would just be looking at the peace sign part of my fingers and the rest would just be for "show".)

Hummm... Maybe I could even get my elbows into all of this. I'll explain that I'm "checking all the angles".

I''ll be known as the human protractor!

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with B.S."<hr /></blockquote>

Billy_Bob
06-30-2005, 10:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr>...The respect you have gained is worth more than any trophy. All that could be flushed with gaming tactics... <hr /></blockquote>

Thank you for the compliment!

But I'm also getting the same treatment that Jeanette Lee received at first, as discussed in her book. That being some people are out and out nasty to me lately. And I mean REALLY nasty!

But I thought about this last night. These other players have been playing for say 10 years or more, then I come along, been playing for only 2 years seriously, and am already at a higher league skill level than they are.

I guess I can see where they are comming from.

I think I need to "pay my dues" or whatever. Maybe "cool it" for awhile. I don't know...

I think I'll read Jeanette Lee's book again, that might help. (The Black Widow's Guide to Killer Pool.)

Billy_Bob
06-30-2005, 10:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>...Now, as soon as they ask, I am more than happy to explain it to them. As you can probably tell, I have no desire to keep it secret...<hr /></blockquote>

Are you finding that people are receptive to your explaining the 30 degree rule? I've tried explaining this to other players and it goes in one ear and out the other (before I started using the peace sign).

Maybe if I handed them a one page printed sheet which showed them a diagram, briefly explained the concept, and gave a link to your web site, that would be best.

Then I would not be spending a lot of time explaining this in the middle of tournaments.

Do you have anything which is one page like this? I'd be happy to hand it out...

Cane
06-30-2005, 11:25 AM
Billy Bob, I hope you don't mind my chiming in to answer this. When you start talking to people about tangent lines, 30 rules, how to deviate from them, and so forth, you're going to get those looks like "This guy is nuts". Those that want to learn will listen. Those that don't... well, hypnotize them!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dave, no I won't accuse you of being over analytical about the 30 rule or tangent lines. I feel that being able to accurately predict cue ball path is "almost" as important as making the shots. I only say "almost" because if you can't make the shots, then the position you get on the next ball doesn't really matter... I have NEVER been in a position where I thought, "Great Position! Wish I'd made the ball!" Anyways, I just can't get these swollen up fingers to do the peace sign wide enough... I'd be looking at a 20 angle with my peace sign... hopefully that cue ball path wouldn't be as crooked as my fingers! ...so I have to visualize the line with my fingertip (or my cue) on the rail.

As a matter of fact, back in my youth, before I quit playing, I used to make an "L" out of my forefinger and thumb for a tangent line. Worked pretty good, but now I just see the lines easily. Thousands of hours of practice and play, I guess, but the "L" was a handy tool before I was capable of visualizing tangent lines (when I was making the "L", I didn't know the term Tangent Line anyways... just where the ball went on a stop shot).

So Billy Bob... Add the "L" in with your peace sign! That'll get 'em talking! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Later,
Bob

pooltchr
06-30-2005, 12:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> Add the "L" in with your peace sign! That'll get 'em talking! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Later,
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

So what your are saying is get a peace and then go to L????
/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

dr_dave
06-30-2005, 02:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr>back in my youth, before I quit playing, I used to make an "L" out of my forefinger and thumb for a tangent line. Worked pretty good, but now I just see the lines easily. Thousands of hours of practice and play, I guess, but the "L" was a handy tool before I was capable of visualizing tangent lines (when I was making the "L", I didn't know the term Tangent Line anyways... just where the ball went on a stop shot).<hr /></blockquote>
FYI, I show how this is done in NV 3.5 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV3-5.htm). I actually don't use that method, but I often place my stick along the impact line between the object and the pocket (as I do in the video) to help visualize the perpendicular, tangent-line direction, especially for tight position control shots.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
06-30-2005, 02:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>...Now, as soon as they ask, I am more than happy to explain it to them. As you can probably tell, I have no desire to keep it secret...<hr /></blockquote>

Are you finding that people are receptive to your explaining the 30 degree rule? I've tried explaining this to other players and it goes in one ear and out the other (before I started using the peace sign).<hr /></blockquote>
The people that want to learn and have seen how good it works are very receptive; although, they don't always get it at first. But usually, after they've seen it work, and then I explain to them, and then they see it some more, and then they try it some more, they usually get the hang of it and start deploying their fingers often.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>Maybe if I handed them a one page printed sheet which showed them a diagram, briefly explained the concept, and gave a link to your web site, that would be best.

Then I would not be spending a lot of time explaining this in the middle of tournaments.

Do you have anything which is one page like this? I'd be happy to hand it out...<hr /></blockquote>
I will put something together and post a message when it is available. For now, you can just tell them to go to www.engr.colostate.edu/pool (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/pool). Thanks for sharing with others. I wish all pool players were as generous as you.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
06-30-2005, 04:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>Maybe if I handed them a one page printed sheet which showed them a diagram, briefly explained the concept, and gave a link to your web site, that would be best.

Then I would not be spending a lot of time explaining this in the middle of tournaments.

Do you have anything which is one page like this? I'd be happy to hand it out...<hr /></blockquote>
BillyBob,

Thank you for the great idea. In fact, I thought it was such a good idea, I decided to get right on it. The summary page can be found in the new Instructor Resources (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/resources.html) area of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/).

Thank you also for helping to spread the word about my stuff. I appreciate it.

Regards,
Dave

Billy_Bob
07-01-2005, 10:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ...The summary page can be found in the new Instructor Resources (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/resources.html) area of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/).

Thank you also for helping to spread the word about my stuff. I appreciate it. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks! I printed 5 copies of this and will give them to anyone asking about my peace sign from now on. If they want more info after that, I'll be happy to tell all.

Actually this would be good for me. If the players in my area improve, then I will have stiffer competition in the future. So this may just help my game as well!

Billy_Bob
07-01-2005, 11:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> Billy Bob, I hope you don't mind my chiming in to answer this. When you start talking to people about tangent lines, 30 rules, how to deviate from them, and so forth, you're going to get those looks like "This guy is nuts". Those that want to learn will listen. Those that don't... well, hypnotize them!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, I have experienced this. That is why I have just been telling them it is 30 degrees and leaving it at that. (But now I'll give them the one page handout.)

Before I had my own pool table to practice and experiment on, I would go to a local tavern to practice/experiment. One time I had just read Ron Shepard's paper on squirt and was experimenting with cue ball deflection. Well a few guys wanted to know what I was doing. So I tried explaining. They had of course never heard of cue ball deflection.

Well they started in with their comments of some "college professor", probably never played one game, etc., etc.

All I wanted to do was experiment and learn about this - not listen to their comments. So I gave them a copy of Ron's paper which is full of math formulas on the first pages.

That shut them up! Then I got back to my experimenting/practice.

BTW, what I was experimenting with and looking at on this paper was not the math formulas, but the testing for squirt portion and the summary (in english) on the last 3 pages. But I didn't tell them that...

FYI - Ron Shepard's paper...
http://www.sfbilliards.com/Shepard_squirt.pdf

dr_dave
07-01-2005, 12:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr>if you have arthritis you can't make a 30 peace sign<hr /></blockquote>
Wow! You must have a really bad case of arthritis if you can't form a relaxed but firm peace sign. Maybe you're trying to stretch too much. FYI, in the last Q&amp;A of my Feb '05 instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/feb05.pdf), I recommend how to calibrate your hand for the 30 angle.

Also, an alternative to the peace sign is to use your thumb and index finger. It is easy, even with arthritis, to form a 30 angle with these fingers; although, you will definitely need to calibrate your hand because the 30 angle doesn't come as naturally as it does with the index and middle fingers.

Regards,
Dave

Cane
07-01-2005, 03:12 PM
Dave,

Yeah, the arthritis thing is an aggravation. Ask Spetty what I looked like coming down the stairs in the mornings at Petty Point! LOL A sight to behold! My closed bridge is completely different than it used to be, fingers are crooked, etc. Hey, at least my hands aren't the worst part! My knees are the real kicker! But... I'm supposed to get steel and teflon knees before next summer. Hoping the V.A. doesn't have another change of heart on the timing of that! Doesn't matter... I have my eyes and I have my stroke. That's all I really need to play pool.

But, ya know what. I live about 3 miles from a cemetary, and I figure there are about 20,000 people there worse off than I am, so what the hell. Just live with it and go on.

Thanks for the suggestions on how to do the peace sign and thumb and finger 30, but I really don't need those anymore. It's kind of like I just know where the cue ball is going these days. It's funny. I really don't even think about whether I should hit the ball left or right or high or low. I just look at where the next two balls are and it's almost like the cue stick knows where to hit the cue ball. I've had many situations where someone says "How did you get around on that ball?" and I honestly can't tell them unless they go to the table and set the shot up for me again. Regardless, thank you for the information.

Billy Bob. Thanks for the link. I'm going to check it out later. Resting now and just reading the board. We've been moving furniture all day and right now I'm too tired to even go to another website! LOL

Later,
Bob

HALHOULE
07-02-2005, 01:04 AM
A CAROM FROM CUE BALL TO OBJECT BALL DOES NOT REQUIRE HOLDING UP FINGERS OR A PEACE SIGNS TO ACCESS THE TANGENT ANGLE. THE PROPER AIMING SYSTEM WOULD DO THAT ACCURATELY AND CONSISTENTLY, EACH AND EVERY TIME.

Billy_Bob
07-02-2005, 08:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> A CAROM FROM CUE BALL TO OBJECT BALL DOES NOT REQUIRE HOLDING UP FINGERS OR A PEACE SIGNS TO ACCESS THE TANGENT ANGLE. THE PROPER AIMING SYSTEM WOULD DO THAT ACCURATELY AND CONSISTENTLY, EACH AND EVERY TIME. <hr /></blockquote>

I've just started playing "bottle pool" where you place an upside down plastic bottle in the center of the table, then try to hit an object ball and then get the cue ball to knock down the bottle. This is teaching me a lot about carom shots and making me pay more attention to *exactly* where the cue ball will go after it hits the object ball.

You've got me thinking now... I did speak with you on the phone awhile back, but we discussed aiming for pocketing balls. I'll need to put my thinking cap on and think about how what you taught me could be applied to where the cue ball goes after the hit. Thanks!