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SPetty
06-30-2005, 10:33 AM
This hasn't been posted about lately...

There are many people who have posted that the best way to clean your table is with one of those little hand-held vacuums with a rotating brush. Some people think that the rotating brush head will damage your cloth, while others say they've been doing it for years with no ill effects and that the brush helps pick up more dust.

When I bought my table probably two years ago, I bought a little hand-held vacuum with a rotating brush to clean my table with. I don't clean it as often as I should, but when I do, I clean it well.

I noticed the other day while passing by the table without the table lights on - just the ambient light coming in through a window - that my cloth looked a little fuzzy. It's Simonis 860, which I don't think is supposed to look fuzzy. It isn't anything I've ever noticed with the table lights on, so it's not a lot of fuzziness, but...

Do you think the rotating brush caused the fuzziness, or is Simonis 860 slightly fuzzy to begin with? I always thought it was a slick cloth with no fuzz, but I don't recall looking at it carefully or closely when I first got it.

Cane
06-30-2005, 11:30 AM
Spetty, 860 will be a little fuzzy when you first have it installed, but usually, the fuzziness wears down and they'll become almost "shiny" with a lot of use. I don't like rotating brushes on cloth, and use a shop vac to vacuum mine. I'm seriously thinking about one of the small vacuums like that shark thing you had with a nozzle. The shop vac works well, but it's from my fly rod shop, is a 5 HP vac and sounds like a frieght train running through the house when you turn it on.

later,
Bob

Fran Crimi
06-30-2005, 12:02 PM
SPetty,

Two things you don't want to see happen to your cloth regardless of it's type, are stretching and breaking too many fibers which result in fuzziness.

Vacuums with a hard pull will stretch the cloth. Rotating brushes will obviously break more fibers than non-rotating brushes. If I were you, I'd get rid of the rotating brushes and use a fine brush on a vacuum with a light pull. Then move the vacuum in one direction down table...and this has nothing to do with the cloth being directional or non-directional. This is about breaking the least amount of fibers as possible. Don't go back and forth like you're vacuuming your carpet.

When you're done with that, run a slightly damp cloth in one direction down the length of the table, always towards the foot rail, and let it air dry. No blow dryers. Vacuum as infrequently as you can. The more often you do it, the more fibers you'll break. Simonis 860 should not be even slightly fuzzy, unless you're breaking the fibers.

Fran

DickLeonard
06-30-2005, 04:44 PM
SPetty I agree with Frans post also keep your table cover
when not in use. I would always vacuum to the foot of the table but in my day the cloth was directional.

The cueball would roll faster going with the nap and slower against the nap. ####

Stretch
06-30-2005, 05:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> SPetty,

Two things you don't want to see happen to your cloth regardless of it's type, are stretching and breaking too many fibers which result in fuzziness.

Vacuums with a hard pull will stretch the cloth. Rotating brushes will obviously break more fibers than non-rotating brushes. If I were you, I'd get rid of the rotating brushes and use a fine brush on a vacuum with a light pull. Then move the vacuum in one direction down table...and this has nothing to do with the cloth being directional or non-directional. This is about breaking the least amount of fibers as possible. Don't go back and forth like you're vacuuming your carpet.

When you're done with that, run a slightly damp cloth in one direction down the length of the table, always towards the foot rail, and let it air dry. No blow dryers. Vacuum as infrequently as you can. The more often you do it, the more fibers you'll break. Simonis 860 should not be even slightly fuzzy, unless you're breaking the fibers.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Great advice Fran. A Table Mechanic friend of mine also claims that the vacuum will lift the crack filler used on the slate seams leading to all kinds of problems. Yep, use the brush and brush it good, then apply a damp cloth to lift the dust and chalk. When not in use, cover. St.

Barbara
06-30-2005, 07:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> SPetty I agree with Frans post also keep your table cover
when not in use. I would always vacuum to the foot of the table but in my day the cloth was directional.

The cueball would roll faster going with the nap and slower against the nap. #### <hr /></blockquote>

That's what Jimmy Caras taught me!! Brush "head to foot"!

Nowadays I just divide the table in half and brush to the closest pockets. I do use a Dirt Devil with a rotating brush but I don't bear down with it. You can't! It's got a metal plate that prevents this!

Hey listen, if you want perfect conditions all the time, just re-cloth your table every year! Or learn how to live with it and the tables you will encounter.

Barbara

Troy
06-30-2005, 08:07 PM
That must be a real poor job of filling the slate seams.
If a vac has THAT much power I wouldn't use it on a carpet 'cuz it might rip the carpet off the floor... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr>A Table Mechanic friend of mine also claims that the vacuum will lift the crack filler used on the slate seams leading to all kinds of problems.
St. <hr /></blockquote>

ras314
06-30-2005, 09:16 PM
SPetty, either the little shark vac or the smallest shop vac seems to work pretty well. I like the shark because it is easier to see what you have accumulated in the thing. There will be some fuzzey stuff with the chalk initially with 860 that will gradually become less with time. I may be a bit picky, but I usually clean up chalk marks on my table whenever I see them and rarely vacuum the whole table. My thought is to use a weak vacuume before the chalk dust works into the cloth.

I won't use a rotating brush, just doesn't sound like a good idea. We had a table with so much chalk dust under the cloth that the slate appeared warped, must have had 1/8" dust layer when the cloth was removed. Didn't seem the hand brush did a bit of good on that table, just worked the stuff into the cloth so it wasn't visable. That was Forstman cloth but I am told 860 will do the same thing.

If you get the chance, watch a bar table recovered some time. There will so much dust in the cloth you ought to wear a mask to handle it. Add a little humidity and it is no wonder most bar tables are so slow. Maybe a real strong vacuum with a stiff brush might do a little good with that dirty a table.

Gayle in MD
07-01-2005, 04:44 AM
SPetty, How's it going gal?
When I got my table, my dear friend Jim S. here on CCB helped me a great deal in my decision making regarding Pocket size, etc. and also told me that he used the dirt devil to clean his table, so I have done the same, for years. I do not bear down, and use it going in one direction, but I have had no problems whatsoever. I recently had all new cloth installed by the Diamond folks, since I was having my rail rubber replaced with Artemis rubber, and the table mechanics couldn't believe how clean the slate was under the cloth. They also said I couldn't hurt the cloth by cleaning it with the dirt devil in the way that I use it. I called Simonis to ask them when I first got my table, and was given the same answer. Both Jim S. and I have used the Dirt Devil over the years on our Diamond Pros, with no resulting problems. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in Md.

JimS
07-01-2005, 05:12 AM
Fact. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif based on my experience.... but Fran's post sure makes a lot of sense.

DickLeonard
07-01-2005, 05:42 AM
Troy some table mechanics would use plaster of Paris to fill the seams, not the bondo type seam filler used today.
The plaster of Paris will breakdown especially if the table gets moved and the slates shift. That was the reason for no sitting on the table or one foot on the floor.####

Gayle in MD
07-01-2005, 06:03 AM
Hi there friend,
I always respect Fran's opinion, and it does make sense, but just speaking from my own experience, I haven't had a problem from using the Dirt Devil. I do use it very carefull, however, and stroke all one way. Guess there are a lot of ways to vacumm. I haven't ever had any little balls develop on my cloth, or noticed any wear.

Gayle in Md.

SplinterHands
07-01-2005, 06:17 AM
<hr /></blockquote>
Great advice Fran. A Table Mechanic friend of mine also claims that the vacuum will lift the crack filler used on the slate seams leading to all kinds of problems. <hr /></blockquote>

Don't use a high power vacuum like a shop vac. I pulled the seam filler up using one.

Troy
07-01-2005, 06:43 AM
I was talking about vacuuming, not table abuse.
Plaster of Paris ??? Must be a real amateur.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Troy some table mechanics would use plaster of Paris to fill the seams, not the bondo type seam filler used today.
The plaster of Paris will breakdown especially if the table gets moved and the slates shift. That was the reason for no sitting on the table or one foot on the floor.#### <hr /></blockquote>

Fran Crimi
07-01-2005, 08:52 AM
I had an extensive conversation this morning with Ivan Lee, Pres. of Simonis U.S. on caring for 860 Simonis cloth, and he confirmed my suggestion. He also added some additional points of interest.

When I mentioned the use of rotating brushes, his response was, "No, that wouldn't be a good idea." Although additional fiber breakage is a concern, he said that he was even moreso concerned about the fact that rotating brushes literally "Beat the cloth, as if you're beating a rug." That could stretch the cloth more than a non-rotating brush.

He also said that for bristle texture, use the bristles on a table brush as an example and try not to use a vacuum with bristles harder than that.

Also, NEVER press hard with a vacuum or brush and never use a vacuum with a hard pull. Always vacuum and brush lightly and if the cloth is exceptionally dirty you can vacuum back and forth, however, do it extremely lightly. Pressing hard will damage more fibers, stretch the cloth and push dirt deeper into the cloth.

He mentioned that going down the table with a SLIGHTLY damp cloth in one direction after vacuuming will lay down the fibers that have become vertical after vacuuming. Also the wool fibers may shrink slightly, helping to hold them in place. But do not WET the cloth. Only slightly dampen it.

He also said not to worry too much about dirt getting under Simonis 860. If you properly care for the cloth, and don't vacuum or brush too hard, that won't be an issue because the weave is extremely tight. If you take a piece of the cloth and stretch it to the max and hold it up to the light, he said you won't see holes through the weave because of how tight it is.

The good news is that the fibers on Simonis 860 are long and don't break as easily as other cloths, however, he still recommends caution when using the vacuum. Keep it light and stay away from rotating brushes.

Fran

Forgot to mention: Ivan wholeheartedly gave me permission to post his response on the CCB.

SplinterHands
07-01-2005, 03:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> I was talking about vacuuming, not table abuse.
Plaster of Paris ??? Must be a real amateur.
Troy

Maybe at vacuuming, but you'll need the 6-ball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Cane
07-01-2005, 03:42 PM
Fran,

Thank you for posting that. You just changed the way I care for the cloth on my table. I guess the old 5hp shop vac is going to stay in the shop!

Thanks,
Bob

AmazingBrewdini
07-01-2005, 06:56 PM
IMO, Durham's Rock Hard Water Putty is a better choice than Plaster of Paris, Bondo, or Beeswax. But then again, what the hell do I know? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

As far a vacuums go, I like a Shark Vac. I follow the vac with a spritz of Quick Clean and then wipe it with the Quick Clean microfiber squeege looking thing. It's the cat's pajamas! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BANKS77
07-01-2005, 11:19 PM
I use a dirt devil with the brushes removed for cleaning my Gold Crown table with Simonis 760. I think Jerry Briesth gave me that tip in one of his BCA trade show seminars back in the 80s.

JimS
07-02-2005, 04:34 AM
For the last 5 years I've been using the Dirt Devil Ultra that has the revolving brush. I'm changing.

Fran has posted the definitive info regarding how to care for Simonis and I'm changing my methods.

Anybody used one of those "Shark" portables?

Thanks Fran. Good information is priceless. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Fran Crimi
07-02-2005, 06:57 AM
Thanks Jim,

Glad to be of help. As you can imagine, I give a lot of lessons on home tables and I'd have to say that nearly all of the tables I've encountered with Simonis 860 play a little slower and are a little fuzzier than the Simonis 860 I know and love so well. It took me awhile to figure it out, but it all came down to how folks were caring for the tables. Some didn't even know because their household help were doing the cleaning. Ugh. I can picture them lifting the vacuum off the floor and transfering it to the table.

More often than not, the differences are very subtle. But the differences are there.

One interesting exception is a student I have who bought Woody Allen's townhouse. While looking at the house, he fell in love with Woody's antique table and requested that the table and accessories be included in the deal. Woody obliged----who wouldn't for a $25 M sale. LOL!

Anyway, two days after moving in, my student called me for a lesson. I was amazed at how perfect the table was, including the cloth. The house cue tips were perfectly shaped with little sign of use. The only indication I saw of play was that several chalks were worn flat. My student confirmed that they were left with the table. I'd bet Woody had his own cue and knew how to chalk, because he wasn't digging the tip into the chalk hole. He's a player. And I bet he didn't have his cleaning staff vacuuming the table with the floor vac, either. Pretty cool.

Fran

Rip
07-02-2005, 09:28 AM
Hi JimS,
I've been using a Shark for several years and following up with a damp--not wet--cloth. No nappy crap on my Shimony!
Regards,
Rip~damn it's hot today!

SPetty
07-03-2005, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> He also said that for bristle texture, use the bristles on a table brush as an example and try not to use a vacuum with bristles harder than that.

He mentioned that going down the table with a SLIGHTLY damp cloth in one direction after vacuuming will lay down the fibers that have become vertical after vacuuming. <hr /></blockquote>Hi Fran,

Thanks for the help. Just wanted to mention that my cloth was far from nappy, just barely a little fuzz that you couldn't really see, except with the ambient light. Kinda like the dust you see floating in a sun ray through the window.

The proper clue here is that this was one time when I vacuumed but I didn't wipe down the table with a damp cloth afterwards like I normally do. So likely, the vacuuming raised the tiny imperceptable hairs, and they didn't get laid back down with the damp rag like they normally are. That's probably why I noticed it.

The brishes on the Dirt Devil are very very soft, much softer than the brushes on the table brush. It looks like the mini-shark that ras314 brought to show me would be the perfect thing to use, then. It had soft bristles, no rotation, and relatively weak suction.

As for brushing the table with the table brush - I'm always afraid that's just pushing the chalk in deeper. I mean, yeah, brushing makes the marks go away, but it isn't picking up the chalk, so where's it going?

My procedure before was to vacuum with the Dirt Devil, then brush with the table brush, then vacuum with the Dirt Devil to pick up the dust the brush loosened, then wipe down with a damp rag. This last time, I didn't wipe down which is probably why I saw the fuzz mentioned in my initial post.

Thanks for the feedback. I think I'll get me one of those little mini sharks and use the Dirt Devil for the floor... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

ras314
07-03-2005, 03:00 PM
I have used a small 1 hp shop vac on some really terrible bar tables, you would not believe the amount of fuzz and chalk it stored up. After several complete vaccumings the tables looked better but didn't play one bit faster. I think the swamp coolers in use here keep the cloth too humid.

That mini-shark has a pretty strong vaccum in a small area if the little brush hicky isn't used and I'd be real careful with the small fitting. Probably not a good idea to pick the tip straight up when it has suction with any vaccum as it can put a suprisingly hard pull on the cloth.

I also use the quick clean system occasionally, usually after I've vacummed the whole table. Only brush I have sheds bristles so bad it is usless. It is free to the first person to stop by. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

All that table care is worth it to me when slow rolling balls just go straight and stop without wolbbing around. Especially when a ob will roll 1/2" off the rail down the length of the table and just drop off the pocket shelf. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Been doing a speed drill with the ob in the center of a corner pocket and slow rolling (with natural roll) the cb into it from the opposite corner without scratching. Don't know what use the shot might be but it sure looks neat and takes a pretty good touch. And a round cb on a level table.

wolfdancer
07-03-2005, 04:07 PM
The system that we came up with, after trial and error, a small shop vac....with a horsehair brush attachment from Hoover....the tables were vacuumed every day, with no wear caused by the brush...the shop vac needs less filter replacement then a cannister type

Stretch
07-04-2005, 06:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> SPetty, How's it going gal?
When I got my table, my dear friend Jim S. here on CCB helped me a great deal in my decision making regarding Pocket size, etc. and also told me that he used the dirt devil to clean his table, so I have done the same, for years. I do not bear down, and use it going in one direction, but I have had no problems whatsoever. I recently had all new cloth installed by the Diamond folks, since I was having my rail rubber replaced with Artemis rubber, and the table mechanics couldn't believe how clean the slate was under the cloth. They also said I couldn't hurt the cloth by cleaning it with the dirt devil in the way that I use it. I called Simonis to ask them when I first got my table, and was given the same answer. Both Jim S. and I have used the Dirt Devil over the years on our Diamond Pros, with no resulting problems. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in Md.

<hr /></blockquote>

Gayle!,,,You have a Diamond Pro?! And with New Artimus rubber and Simonis Cloth? Ahhhhhhhh i think i just had an orgasm lol. I've never played on one but have heard it's the best table on the market and the table of choice for many pro's. Great pick Gayle! St.

Fran Crimi
07-04-2005, 05:10 PM
SPetty, I'm not trying to be picky here, just trying to be helpful and to be as clear about this as possible....

After vacuuming, and before using the wet cloth, you shouldn't actually be 'seeing' the fibers standing up. If you're seeing even a little bit of fuzziness, it's a vacuuming issue. What the damp cloth should be doing is laying down the few broken fibers that aren't really discernable to the eye.

But the more serious thing that slows down the cloth is stretching. You can tell if the cloth is stretching out a little if it moves slightly when you press your bridge hand fingers into it. If that's not happening, then you shouldn't be concerned at all. Just keep playing and the fuzzies will be burned off and fused down by the friction of the balls. So will the rest of the cloth for that matter. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

gordman
08-29-2007, 05:14 AM
I guess the best way to take for cleaning pool tables pool tables (http://www.newsback.com/pool-table.html) is to ask for advise when buying the table. I wouldn't risk using an hand-held vacuum, a carpet cleaning solution seems more appropriate for me.

wolfdancer
08-29-2007, 11:55 AM
My old boss,a room owner had his tables vacuumed every day, with no cloth damage... cannister vac, a horsehair brush...no roller.....A top mechanic warned him against using a revolving brush....

bradb
08-29-2007, 12:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> My old boss,a room owner had his tables vacuumed every day, with no cloth damage... cannister vac, a horsehair brush...no roller.....A top mechanic warned him against using a revolving brush....
<hr /></blockquote>

Yes! good advise!... Never use a rotating vacuum brush! it could damage the cloth.

First brush the table with a hand brush... it doesn't mater which way you brush because Simonis is a shaved cloth and has no nap. Then vacuum up the loose chalk with a vacuum only. About once a month clean with PTC Cue Silk spray or some other brand name cleaner. This will restore the color.

I got most of my info from my Simonis brochure when I bought my table, plus check their web site. _Brad

ras314
08-31-2007, 07:13 PM
Wow, an interesting old thread bought back. I am still using the small Shark vac hand unit with a brush attachment (upholstery? ) with no apparent problems. It still gets some soft fuzz along with chalk dust from the Simonis 860 cloth. Table hasn't had as much play as I would like though.

Some time ago an old bar table hustler friend of mine finally got his own bar with two old Valley tables. He used a plain old house cannister type vacuum cleaner with the typical roller brush every night, made me cringe every time he hoisted that thing up on the table. But then he recovered tables too, always some angle with that guy. Was the best playing bar tables in town, lots of touring wantabe players wished they had never heard of the place. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bradb
09-01-2007, 07:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> Wow, an interesting old thread bought back. I am still using the small Shark vac hand unit with a brush attachment (upholstery? ) with no apparent problems. It still gets some soft fuzz along with chalk dust from the Simonis 860 cloth. Table hasn't had as much play as I would like though.

Some time ago an old bar table hustler friend of mine finally got his own bar with two old Valley tables. He used a plain old house cannister type vacuum cleaner with the typical roller brush every night, made me cringe every time he hoisted that thing up on the table. But then he recovered tables too, always some angle with that guy. Was the best playing bar tables in town, lots of touring wantabe players wished they had never heard of the place. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I suppose if you are careful and know what you are doing you can power brush your table, its just that the power brush is so strong you must make sure you keep it moving. I would be want to use it though...it would seem to add additional wear to the surface.

SpiderMan
09-11-2007, 02:13 PM
When I owned a table, I vacuumed it regularly, but I did not use any attachments with a rotating head or brush. I used a relatively-soft fixed-head brush, but attached to a shop vac with plenty of suction.

I would worry about the motorized brush, as you have very little control over how "rough" it is being on the cloth.

SpiderMan

JimS
09-15-2007, 06:13 AM
I use the Red Devil Ultra which has a rotating brush. I've used it for several years with great success and no problems.

I do NOT let it touch the cloth with any force. I only allow light contact with the cloth... just enough to remove any chalk spots that might have occurred.

I am not recommending it. I'm saying that I use it and I like it.