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View Full Version : Question to Dr. Dave re: 2 Rail Parallel Line Kick



BigRigTom
07-03-2005, 09:22 AM
Dr. Dave, I have been practicing the 2 rail parallel line kick shots you show in your book on pages 229 & 230 and demonstated in NV 7.9 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV7-9.htm).

It works fine if I set up the balls similar to what you show in your book but I am having difficulty invisioning the same shot from other set ups.
I don't think I fully understand how to determine the center line between the 2 parallel lines.
Can you elaborate on this idea?
Maybe some of the BCA instructors would like to chime in also.

ceebee
07-03-2005, 06:38 PM
I too practice this shot consistantly. I am gaining consistance in making the ball. I am always able to hit the ball, but making it is imperative.

I can envision the imaginary corner (where the rails would intersect) which is one part of the centerline of parallel system, determining the mid-point between the the balls (the other end of the centerline of the parallel system) is a still hard, because it has to be a perfect judgement.

With all this done, developing the reverse english stroke & speed that causes the cue ball to parallel it's original path is still the trick. NOTE: reverse english stalls the cue ball's speed, so that cause both cue ball & object ball to remain close to one another after impact (sellout city).

Billy_Bob
07-03-2005, 06:51 PM
I have found all sorts of *different* and conflicting information about this system!

The following is what works best for me. The important part is placing your cue between the center of the two balls and the center of the gutter. Center of gutter assures that you have the correct angle - if aiming at the "pocket", aim will be off. And placing your cue over the center spot to center of gutter "line", then moving it parallel and finding a spot on the cushion to aim at is a much more accurate method of moving the cue parallel.

What works best for me...

Find the center spot between the two balls, place your finger there and be sure it is exactly center. Then line up your cue between the center spot and the center of the pocket gutter (with tip of cue over center of pocket gutter).

Move your entire cue parallel until the butt is over the cue ball. Then look at the spot on the rail to aim at.

Shoot with 1 tip of running english.

This system works best when the cue ball and the object ball are on the same side of the table and the angles into the cushion are around 45 degrees.

Fred Agnir
07-04-2005, 07:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Dr. Dave, I have been practicing the 2 rail parallel line kick shots you show in your book on pages 229 &amp; 230 and demonstated in NV 7.9 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV7-9.htm).

It works fine if I set up the balls similar to what you show in your book but I am having difficulty invisioning the same shot from other set ups.
I don't think I fully understand how to determine the center line between the 2 parallel lines.
Can you elaborate on this idea? <hr /></blockquote>The general theory of the 2-rail Parallel Lines system is that the line from the midpoint between the cueball and object and the center of the aim pocket (the pocket that you double the corner) should be parallel to the line of aim (and the line of return).

So, first find the midpoint between the cueball and 8-ball. Point your stick from that point to the aim pocket . Then, keeping the cue parallel, slide it over to the cueball. That's your line of aim.

All that being said, the parallel kick system definitely breaks down as the kicks get farther from the aim pocket. And for me, all these kicks are done with a hair of running stun to keep other variables out.

Fred

Billy_Bob
07-04-2005, 09:28 AM
BTW - I think this system is a good example of where a pro will tell you about the system (in their book/video), but leave out a few vital details. [The all important "Secrets"!]

I thought this was a good easy system when I first heard about it, but had difficulty consistently making the shots.

So I searched high and low for information about this system. I looked in various books, at videos on kicking, and searched the internet.

It was amazing the vital details "not mentioned" by some sources as well as all the differing and conflicting information I found.

I have seen this a lot. They will mention a shot or system, but not tell you one important detail.

In one case there was a shot I knew already. I watched a video from a pro showing how to shoot the shot. He did not mention this one vital detail. Also the camera was at an angle where you could not see what he was doing.

So when having difficulty with a system or shot, it might be a good idea to check several different sources for that same system or shot. See if they are all telling you the same things.

Now for this system, if you don't use running english, when the cue ball hits the first cushion, the hit will put english on the cue ball which will change its path when it hits the second rail. (A "minor" detail!)

(Dr. Dave is a good guy - gives you all the info needed.)

Stretch
07-04-2005, 10:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> BTW - I think this system is a good example of where a pro will tell you about the system (in their book/video), but leave out a few vital details. [The all important "Secrets"!]

I thought this was a good easy system when I first heard about it, but had difficulty consistently making the shots.

So I searched high and low for information about this system. I looked in various books, at videos on kicking, and searched the internet.

It was amazing the vital details "not mentioned" by some sources as well as all the differing and conflicting information I found.

I have seen this a lot. They will mention a shot or system, but not tell you one important detail.

In one case there was a shot I knew already. I watched a video from a pro showing how to shoot the shot. He did not mention this one vital detail. Also the camera was at an angle where you could not see what he was doing.

So when having difficulty with a system or shot, it might be a good idea to check several different sources for that same system or shot. See if they are all telling you the same things.

Now for this system, if you don't use running english, when the cue ball hits the first cushion, the hit will put english on the cue ball which will change its path when it hits the second rail. (A "minor" detail!)

(Dr. Dave is a good guy - gives you all the info needed.)
<hr /></blockquote>

Man i must be doing it all wrong. I know that doubling around a corner requires inside english if you are intending the cb to come out parrallel with the entry line. But Why? it's way to touchy to control that way. with natural running side picked up off the first rail it wants to come out wider off the second rail so u can predict with much more certainty it's path without the fear of pace problems and line.

Here's a little trick i picked up that enhances your chances at kicking two rails. Do as you always do in finding the midpoint of the cb to ob line and point towards pocket from there to the pocket to be doubled around. Parrallel shift till cue is over cue ball. Now Adjust by pionting half way back to pocket! This compensates for widening angles of the rails and will get u onto the ob naturaly. St.

dr_dave
07-04-2005, 10:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Dr. Dave, I have been practicing the 2 rail parallel line kick shots you show in your book on pages 229 &amp; 230 and demonstated in NV 7.9 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV7-9.htm).

It works fine if I set up the balls similar to what you show in your book but I am having difficulty invisioning the same shot from other set ups.
I don't think I fully understand how to determine the center line between the 2 parallel lines.
Can you elaborate on this idea?
Maybe some of the BCA instructors would like to chime in also. <hr /></blockquote>
The other posters have given some good advice.

Unfortunately, the action of this shot depends on English (running vs. reverse), shot speed, and table (especially cushion) conditions. Obviously, when practicing, you need to try to use consistent English and speed on a given table to see how the cue ball responds at different angles.

Concerning how to aim, I usually do a trial and error sort of thing where I first take a guess at the aiming line direction, lining up the cue stick through the cue ball in this direction. Then I visualize the direction the cue ball will come of the first rail. For a medium speed, center ball hit, the angle off the rail is close to the angle into the rail. This lets me estimate where the cue ball will hit the second rail. Moving the cue stick to that point, keeping it parallel to the initial aiming line, will estimate the final direction. Then I adjust the aiming line direction as necessary based on how the estimated final direction compares with the desired target direction. I continue this until I am happy with the final direction. This goes quickly after you get the hang of it. Also, the final line will usually come up a little short (e.g., see Figure 7.21 on p. 230), so I adjust my aim a little to account for this; but again, this will depend on the table conditions and how you shoot the shot. If you use running English, you will also need to get a feel for how it affects the angle off the first rail.

I know all of that sounds complicated, but I hope it helps some. I, for one, don't expect to have great accuracy with this type of shot. Although, it comes in handy when I get badly snookered by a well-played opponent safety or by very poor position play on my part.

Regards,
Dave

Billy_Bob
07-04-2005, 01:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> ...I know that doubling around a corner requires inside english if you are intending the cb to come out parrallel with the entry line. But Why?... <hr /></blockquote>

In the following high speed video, Dr. Dave has expertly captured that naughty cushion "placing spin" (or english) on the cue ball after it hits. Then when it hits the second cushion, it of course goes wide...

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/HSV6-1.htm

wolfdancer
07-05-2005, 11:09 AM
Stretch, the old "rule" for a 2 rail kick is that the cue ball return track is approx 7 degrees wider then the track into the first rail...due to cushion induced english.

BigRigTom
07-05-2005, 11:46 AM
OK...I think I am starting to get the idea on this thing but I'm still a bit confused on the "center line" of the 2 parallel lines.
I know the thing about the angles off the 2 rails and I sorta understand about the running english, I also realize that there will always be some ajustment necessary due to the condition of the rails.

Disregarding all those adjustments and looking at a hypothetically perfect situation....does the center line between the 2 parallel lines bisect the center of the corner pocket opening or the center of the back of the pocket or the center of the imaginary intersection of the face of the rails leading into the pocket?

Does anyone have a diagram showing a similar situation...maybe once I get the idea straight I can then begin to learn how to adjust for various other situations.

My main purpose for learning this is to be able to kick a ball after being otherwise snookered in a 9 ball match. Some people seem to have a natural talent for seeing these 2 rail kicks but I have to really work at it before my dense brain can get a grasp of it...some I see and others I simply DO NOT! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

dr_dave
07-05-2005, 12:59 PM
I recommend you forget about the "center line." The "center line" goes through the pocket only for approach angles close to 45 degrees. When you choose an aiming line direction, just try to visualize how the cue ball will come off the first rail (this will take some practice). Then it will be clear where the cue ball will strike the 2nd rail. Then, knowing how the angle widens (as shown in Figure 7.21), you can estimate the final direction of the cue ball. Note: Figure 7.20 is very "idealized" and does not adequately illustrate the general situation.

Unfortunately, this is one of those types of things where you just need to practice a bunch to get a feel for how English and speed affect the shot and to be able to better visualize the cue ball path. I'm sorry if you still don't have the answers you are looking for

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> OK...I think I am starting to get the idea on this thing but I'm still a bit confused on the "center line" of the 2 parallel lines.
I know the thing about the angles off the 2 rails and I sorta understand about the running english, I also realize that there will always be some ajustment necessary due to the condition of the rails.

Disregarding all those adjustments and looking at a hypothetically perfect situation....does the center line between the 2 parallel lines bisect the center of the corner pocket opening or the center of the back of the pocket or the center of the imaginary intersection of the face of the rails leading into the pocket?

Does anyone have a diagram showing a similar situation...maybe once I get the idea straight I can then begin to learn how to adjust for various other situations.

My main purpose for learning this is to be able to kick a ball after being otherwise snookered in a 9 ball match. Some people seem to have a natural talent for seeing these 2 rail kicks but I have to really work at it before my dense brain can get a grasp of it...some I see and others I simply DO NOT! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Billy_Bob
07-05-2005, 01:45 PM
Here are a couple of links with diagrams...
http://www.bcv-neustadt.de/Training/Artikel/Kickshot_2/kickshot_2.htm

Above page translated (google translate) to english...
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bcv-neustadt.de%2FTraining%2FArtikel%2FKickshot_2%2Fki ckshot_2.htm&amp;langpair=de%7Cen&amp;hl=en&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Another page...
http://www.jimloy.com/billiard/kick3.htm

BigRigTom
07-05-2005, 01:54 PM
WOW! THANKS Billy-Bob!
The link http://www.jimloy.com/billiard/kick3.htm is exactly what I was looking for.

Thanks to everyone for your help, advise and hints...plus the private email I received .....they have all helped in one way or other and all I have to do now is practice until it sinks into my dense head.
Also to Dr. Dave and his book for getting me started in the 1st place.
Pool knowledge.....The pursuit continues......

Thanks again. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif