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Sid_Vicious
07-13-2005, 04:32 AM
Anybody actually tried one of these to see merit in having one, even if it is for teaching new, beginning students???sid

randyg
07-13-2005, 05:45 AM
SID: Don't have one in school, yet.

I understand that you had S.A.M. explained to you. Do you understand S.A.M.? Do you plan on using it? Would you be interested in more help with S.A.M.?.....randyg

Sid_Vicious
07-13-2005, 06:12 AM
Randy

S.A.M.? I guess I've slept since then, I can't relate the acronym unless it is Spider related, and if so, no I haven't done anything other than have done some quick online availability/pricing for the thing. Sorry if the SAM is something I blondheadedly missed.

You can PM me or post, and yes I'm always looking to learn, even at my salty age. Thanks...sid

Rich R.
07-13-2005, 06:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Anybody actually tried one of these to see merit in having one, even if it is for teaching new, beginning students???sid <hr /></blockquote>
Sid, I haven't used one, but I did see it demonstrated.
I think it may be good for beginning students, to give them a visual reference of where the cue ball should hit the object ball. However, I don't think it would have much value for anyone above a beginner.
JMHO, after seeing a quick demonstration.

raodwarior
07-13-2005, 06:49 AM
Also, just like the ghost ball trainer it does not take throw into account.

randyg
07-13-2005, 06:57 AM
RAODWARIOR: Does "throw" happen on ALL shots????SPF-randy

randyg
07-13-2005, 06:59 AM
SID: At Pettypoint, Caneman was giving an demonstration of the aiming system....randyg

ceebee
07-13-2005, 07:23 AM
I think the Spider would be a great tool for the instructor to help teach the lower level players about the difference between the contact point &amp; the aiming point.

I have used a Craftsman Laser Light at my home to practice Spot Shots. The laser tool sits on the rail &amp; projects the beam across the ball &amp; into the pocket. It does not project the ghost ball image to the table, but I don't need that much help anyway. P.S. a cheap laser light won't work, because the beam of light isn't strong enough to show up under the Pool Table lights.

You have to practice Spot Shots if you are going to play in Ring Games. The Laser Light is a good tool &amp; you can use the ring of light to practice your throw shots too (you just aim a little heavy or a little light).

I like training tools &amp; instructors, they make life easy for us players that want to learn. They also steepen the learning curve, so that we don't spend a great deal of money &amp; time to raise our skill level to match our level of talent.

SPetty
07-13-2005, 10:49 AM
I hung around and got the schpeil (how do you spell schpeil?) on the Spider Aiming tool at the USOpen last year. Knowing what a googan and equipment whore I am, even I couldn't find a reason to actually buy one.

The things it shows you are very good, and I think maybe aren't marketed quite as well as they could be. As you know, it shows the contact point on the object ball. But it also shows the cue ball tangent line, the ghost ball, and the contact point on the cue ball that could be used to help with the parallel aiming system.

This device would be great to help explain those concepts to a true beginner, but I couldn't see a practical application in use. That is, I couldn't personally see how, after using it, I could transfer that knowledge/imagery to my game. Once you turn off the lights, the info is gone, and I couldn't see how learning to aim at a light could help me when the light wasn't there.

catscradle
07-13-2005, 11:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> I hung around and got the schpeil (how do you spell schpeil?) ...
<hr /></blockquote>
Do you mean "spiel" - A lengthy or extravagant speech or argument usually intended to persuade.

BTW, I agree with you about the gadget and I'm also a buyer of gadgets. It may be useful for an instructor to have one for demonstration purposes, but I can imagine why an individual would have use for one.

Rod
07-13-2005, 12:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> As you know, it shows the contact point on the object ball. But it also shows the cue ball tangent line, the ghost ball, and the contact point on the cue ball that could be used to help with the parallel aiming system. [

This device would be great to help explain those concepts to a true beginner, but I couldn't see a practical application in use. That is, I couldn't personally see how, after using it, I could transfer that knowledge/imagery to my game. Once you turn off the lights, the info is gone, and I couldn't see how learning to aim at a light could help me when the light wasn't there.
<hr /></blockquote>

I suppose it could be useful but you have to look beyond the light. If Hal said anything in that long thread that I strongly agree with is -- There are no contact points in pool. I don't use frational either or ghost ball. Although I do and have used Heaters diagram for explaning to newer players.

Rod

raodwarior
07-13-2005, 01:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> RAODWARIOR: Does "throw" happen on ALL shots????SPF-randy <hr /></blockquote>

Yup, at least anything with an angle on it, and that is what the spider does not account for. I got one to help my students and found as soon as you got a couple of feet away from the pocket they were missing while still contacting the proper point.

SPetty
07-13-2005, 02:32 PM
During the spiel (which I wrongly pronounce schpeil /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif), they told me that the solution to throw and cling issues is to aim the Spider into the pocket differently (rather than directly in the center) so that the contact point works. That teaches that the "proper point" you refer to may not always be directly out from the center of the pocket.

Bob_Jewett
07-13-2005, 04:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote raodwarior:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> RAODWARIOR: Does "throw" happen on ALL shots????SPF-randy <hr /></blockquote>

Yup, at least anything with an angle on it, and that is what the spider does not account for. I got one to help my students and found as soon as you got a couple of feet away from the pocket they were missing while still contacting the proper point.

<hr /></blockquote>
You need to use the corrected ghost ball as opposed to the "ideal and frictionless" ghost ball system. This will also help the student see how much throw occurs even when they aren't spinning the cue ball.

A small nit: if you have a cut shot and use exactly the right amount of outside english, you can cancel the throw. However, as Ron Shepard has explained, this is probably the least consistent way to hit the shot because it's hard to find exactly the right amount of outside.

Sid_Vicious
07-13-2005, 06:24 PM
I intuitively suggested to myself the same thing SPetty. If a student was to consistently hit early with the perfect aim(geometrically), then it would be provable(IMO) as to the effect of cling and throw, hence they need to aim inside cue line, or change the part of the pocket they aim toward. Sure the throw is there, but to convince and make someone understand that facet is sometimes easier proven by a consistent miss, and just maybe an aiming tool like this could assist in that understanding...sid

dg-in-centralpa
07-13-2005, 07:22 PM
My wife tried one at Valley Forge this year. She's a beginner and couldn't get the hang of it.

DG

raodwarior
07-13-2005, 08:20 PM
Bob, corrected ghost ball?? This is a new one on me, please give some more info. As for using english to correct, that would be fine for my advanced players but I try to teach my novices center ball only.

Bob_Jewett
07-13-2005, 08:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote raodwarior:</font><hr> Bob, corrected ghost ball?? This is a new one on me, ... <hr /></blockquote>
Shots throw. If you have chosen the speed and spin for a shot, you should be able to judge the throw pretty nearly, especially if you practice at it. If you know that the ball is going to throw a certain amount, you can pick a target other than the center of the pocket. That will adjust where the ghost ball is to correct for throw.

This is a very old subject over in RSB.

raodwarior
07-13-2005, 08:32 PM
Thanks Bob, thats an old discussion. I thought there was something new that I could use as a teaching aid that I hadn't heard of yet. I have found that explaining the aim for collision induced throw can be very difficult for beginners to understand and thought you may have found a new product to explain it. Sorry for my confusion.

cornerpocket
07-13-2005, 10:13 PM
ceebee,
Interesting you should post the Craftsman Laser idea, this is an aiming project I have spent some time with myself. I also found that if you set up a mirror center rail with the laser in front of it, you can get an idea of how your stance is centered--dominant eye? offset? Its neat.

I wrote an article on my experiences at
www.billiardscrossing.com (http://www.billiardscrossing.com/viewarticle.php?articleid=160)

catscradle
07-14-2005, 05:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote raodwarior:</font><hr> Bob, corrected ghost ball?? This is a new one on me, ... <hr /></blockquote>
Shots throw. If you have chosen the speed and spin for a shot, you should be able to judge the throw pretty nearly, especially if you practice at it. If you know that the ball is going to throw a certain amount, you can pick a target other than the center of the pocket. That will adjust where the ghost ball is to correct for throw.

This is a very old subject over in RSB. <hr /></blockquote>
Bob,
I know this is an old discussion and maybe frustrating discussion for some people. After you've been shooting a while are aiming systems unneccessary and perhaps counter-productive. I find that for shots where I'm not purposely trying to throw or do something else "special" I'm better off not using any system, but just putting my mind and body on autopilot, it seems to know the right thing to do. Would you agree with that? Would you be more likely to say I'm using an aiming system that is so deeply ingrained that I'm not aware of it?

Sid_Vicious
07-14-2005, 05:40 AM
Duane,

We're going to find out, I have one in the mail. It'll possibly be an added item to my collection of gizmos I already have, but aside from finding somene who has put real time on one of these things, this is the most direct way to answer the question. I'll let y'all know my finding after working with it after it gets here. I have an avid, open-minded student who doesn't mind the work involved in getting better at this game, so if there's merit in this Spider, we'll find it. Besides, I am curious to see the consistent misses in hopes to be better able to explain throw-cling, whatever. We're havin' fun now!

Sid

Bob_Jewett
07-14-2005, 07:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> ... I find that for shots where I'm not purposely trying to throw or do something else "special" I'm better off not using any system, but just putting my mind and body on autopilot, it seems to know the right thing to do. Would you agree with that? Would you be more likely to say I'm using an aiming system that is so deeply ingrained that I'm not aware of it?
<hr /></blockquote>
I agree with the first part. The second part is just word interpretation. My interpretation of "aiming system" is that some conscious thought occurs during its use. Visualization followed by execution does not qualify as an "aiming system" in my view. And I think all top players shoot almost entirely by the V&amp;E "system."

Scott Lee
07-14-2005, 12:10 PM
cornerpocket...Why do you bother to post a link to an article that is only viewable by PAYING to join your site?
If you make something accessible for others here to see and read, THEN they might consider subscribing to your site. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott Lee

dr_dave
07-14-2005, 01:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>if you have a cut shot and use exactly the right amount of outside english, you can cancel the throw. However, as Ron Shepard has explained, this is probably the least consistent way to hit the shot because it's hard to find exactly the right amount of outside.<hr /></blockquote>
Bob,

FYI, I posted a new thread with this comment and some additional remarks and questions. Please respond in the new thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=200554&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=). I'm going to start trying to do a better job about not letting threads get to long.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
07-14-2005, 01:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Anybody actually tried one of these to see merit in having one, even if it is for teaching new, beginning students???sid <hr /></blockquote>
Sid, I haven't used one, but I did see it demonstrated.
I think it may be good for beginning students, to give them a visual reference of where the cue ball should hit the object ball. However, I don't think it would have much value for anyone above a beginner.
JMHO, after seeing a quick demonstration.<hr /></blockquote>
A less expensive (i.e., costs nothing) and maybe even a more effective alternative is to have a helper place a real ball in the desired GB location (adjusted for throw or not) and pull it away when the person shoots. I demonstrate this technique in NV 3.1 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV3-1.htm); although, I didn't have a helper to remove the ball for me.

Also, striped balls are useful to help the shooter visualize both the "aiming line" (from the CB to the GB center) and the "impact line" between the GB and OB centers. To me, that's the most useful advice in the video (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV3-1.htm).

Regards,
Dave