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dr_dave
07-13-2005, 02:40 PM
FYI,

I have a high-speed video session planned for next week (July 18 through 22). If you have any ideas for what would be interesting to see, and if your ideas are not already covered on the high-speed-video section of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html), please let me know.

This is what I have tentatively planned so far:<ul type="square"> CB action on follow shots at different speeds and offsets (with various height skips over stacked dimes)
Predator 314 and Z shaft deflection and vibration for various speeds and offsets
close-ups of tip and CB during jump shots with and without a jump cue (e.g., the Stinger) and with various offsets and elevations
close-up of tip during power breaks with and without a jump/break cue (e.g., the Stinger)
illegal scoop jump shots at various speeds, elevations, and offsets.
side view close-up of OB impact with follow and draw shots to show English transfer.
close-up views of English transfer from draw and follow shots into frozen OBs (straight-on and at small cut angles)
close-up view of rail-frozen bank double-kiss and near-miss double-kiss.[/list]
All input is greatly appreciated. Also, if anyone wants to visit me in Fort Collins next week, you can participate in and help with the sessions. Please PM me if you are interested.

Regards,
Dr. Dave

tateuts
07-13-2005, 02:50 PM
On a cut shot, have you been able to film a clip where the object ball "skids" on contact? I'd be curious to see the reaction of both the cue ball and object ball on contact on this unusual (and unfortunate) shot.

Chris

dr_dave
07-13-2005, 02:56 PM
FYI, I am also open to non-pool, and even silly, ideas; but please request only stuff that is not available already on my general high-speed-video website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/high_speed_video/index.html). In case you haven't noticed already, I really like this high-speed video stuff.

Regards,
Dr. Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> FYI,

I have a high-speed video session planned for next week (July 18 through 22). If you have any ideas for what would be interesting to see, and if your ideas are not already covered on the high-speed-video section of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html), please let me know.

This is what I have tentatively planned so far:<ul type="square"> CB action on follow shots at different speeds and offsets (with various height skips over stacked dimes)
Predator 314 and Z shaft deflection and vibration for various speeds and offsets
close-ups of tip and CB during jump shots with and without a jump cue (e.g., the Stinger) and with various offsets and elevations
close-up of tip during power breaks with and without a jump/break cue (e.g., the Stinger)
illegal scoop jump shots at various speeds, elevations, and offsets.
side view close-up of OB impact with follow and draw shots to show English transfer.
close-up views of English transfer from draw and follow shots into frozen OBs (straight-on and at small cut angles)
close-up view of rail-frozen bank double-kiss and near-miss double-kiss.[/list]
All input is greatly appreciated. Also, if anyone wants to visit me in Fort Collins next week, you can participate in and help with the sessions. Please PM me if you are interested.

Regards,
Dr. Dave<hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
07-13-2005, 03:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> On a cut shot, have you been able to film a clip where the object ball "skids" on contact? I'd be curious to see the reaction of both the cue ball and object ball on contact on this unusual (and unfortunate) shot.<hr /></blockquote>
Good idea, Chris. I'll add this to the list. Maybe I can help "encourage" the action by rubbing a little chalk on the contact point of the OB. (If I do this, I will be sure to report it when I post the clip.)

Is "OB skid" the same as "CB cling?" I've heard people use those terms interchangeably, and I have always assumed they are the same effect, but I'm not sure.

Regards,
Dave

Bob_Jewett
07-13-2005, 04:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>... Is "OB skid" the same as "CB cling?" I've heard people use those terms interchangeably, and I have always assumed they are the same effect, but I'm not sure.
... <hr /></blockquote>
As the RSB FAQ points out, cling, skid and "kick" all describe the phenomenon of high cue-ball-to-object-ball friction. The last is used in the UK for billiards and snooker.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html

Sometimes people use "skid" to describe a ball that has not achieved smooth rolling yet, and of course "kick" means something entirely different in the US.

wolfdancer
07-13-2005, 04:36 PM
Dr. Dave, sorry if you have already covered this.....
But...in my new "Banking with the Beard" book (great book, by the way) he states that the balls will "flatten" on contact, from 1/16", to 5/16" for a very hard stroke.
Does this occur, and can it be filmed?
Also........since you cannot verify the "system" using geometry...perhaps you can try using non-Euclidean geometry??
Here's a sample from Mathworld:
"A constant curvature non-Euclidean geometry which replaces the parallel postulate with the statement "through any point in the plane, there exist no lines parallel to a given line." In order to achieve a consist system, however, the basic axioms of neutral geometry must be partially modified. Most notably, the axioms of betweenness are no longer sufficient (essentially because betweenness on a great circle makes no sense, namely if A and B are on a circle and C is between them, then the relative position of C is not uniquely specified), and so must be replaced with axioms of separation."
I have no idea what that means...except for the part that says.... makes no sense.
However since Beltrami proved that non- euclidean geometries were as logically consistant as Euclidean geometry...then the corollary would be....that either one should work for checking the system......maybe if you flatten the parallel postulate, then the system would make geometric sense??? the hi speed cameras might do the trick

Rod
07-13-2005, 04:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
Good idea, Chris. I'll add this to the list. Maybe I can help "encourage" the action by rubbing a little chalk on the contact point of the OB. (If I do this, I will be sure to report it when I post the clip.)
<hr /></blockquote>

Well Dave it isn't hard to recreate. Just have a soda, burger and french fries when you play. Oh yes be sure not to clean your hands like the clowns at the pool room.

Man they get beer, sticky soda, mayo ketsup and mustard on the balls, not to mention grease. That'll make em skid. Oh and add to that new slick cloth, it gets much worst. At least with worn cloth your chances of skid is reduced a little.

Rod

Bob_Jewett
07-13-2005, 05:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dr. Dave, sorry if you have already covered this.....
But...in my new "Banking with the Beard" book (great book, by the way) he states that the balls will "flatten" on contact, from 1/16", to 5/16" for a very hard stroke.
Does this occur, and can it be filmed?
... <hr /></blockquote>
Balls do flatten, but I think it isn't nearly that much. It's easy to find the diameter of the flat spot, and I found it to be about 6mm for a fairly hard shot. A diameter of 6mm on the flat spot gives a flattening of 1/6mm on the ball.

To see 1/6 mm of ball flattening, I think you would need a very good lens and a very bright light. That's 1/160 of an inch.

wolfdancer
07-13-2005, 05:34 PM
thanks Bob, I had an idea the claim was exaggerated a bit.
He used carbon paper taped to the OB, carbon side out...and measured the imprint on the CB.
I wonder though if the old "mud" balls gave a little more then today's phenolic resins

tateuts
07-13-2005, 10:26 PM
I would think so. It seems to have the effect of popping up the cueball on contact and sending the object ball into the rail on a straighter line than intended.

The other thing that is somewhat related to this is the effect of balls rolling over chips of chalk. This might be worth photographing. Chalk pieces can mess up the roll of the cueball and the object ball, for some very strange effects.

Chris

Jal
07-14-2005, 12:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> FYI,

I have a high-speed video session planned for next week (July 18 through 22). If you have any ideas... <hr /></blockquote>

1) I would be interested (and who wouldn't) in seeing what happens to the 3-ball during the collision for the trick shot shown below (2 &amp; 3-ball into corner pocket A, 1-ball into the other corner pocket). It works for me using about a quarter ball hit on the 1-ball with right english. The object balls are frozen to each other.

START(
%AP2Q2%BO4P2%CP6P0%DB6[5%EB8[5%FB2[8%GB3\1%HB7[6%IB9[6%JB6[8
%KB9[9%LB1[7%MB9[7%NB9[7%OB6[5%PU5T6%QA8B1%R]0_1%WR0Q7%XT6S9
%eC4a4
)END

2) One of your videos is of a more or less straight on shot with the cueball frozen to an object ball - perhaps the same shot with a center-ball hit at a couple of "cut" angles (say, somewhere between 20-40 deg). The cueball should come off at an angle whose tangent is approximately twice that of the angle between the direction of the cue stick and the line-of-centers between the balls (Jewett's interference system).

3) Maria Sharapova hitting a serve (or anything). There may be some superficial differences between tennis and pool but I would think that the underlying physics is pretty much the same. This could be an opportunity to prove it (although much follow up research would probably be called for).

Jim

eg8r
07-14-2005, 04:15 AM
[ QUOTE ]
In case you haven't noticed already, I really like this high-speed video stuff.
<hr /></blockquote> I bet it is a pretty cool "toy" to play with.

eg8r

Bob_Jewett
07-14-2005, 07:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>... 1) I would be interested (and who wouldn't) in seeing what happens to the 3-ball during the collision for the trick shot shown below (2 &amp; 3-ball into corner pocket A, 1-ball into the other corner pocket). It works for me using about a quarter ball hit on the 1-ball with right english. The object balls are frozen to each other.
... <hr /></blockquote>
I think the whole sequence is fairly obvious just from the combination, kiss and carom lines. Is there something you see that cannot be explained by that?

Chopstick
07-14-2005, 08:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dr. Dave, sorry if you have already covered this.....
But...in my new "Banking with the Beard" book (great book, by the way) he states that the balls will "flatten" on contact, from 1/16", to 5/16" for a very hard stroke.
Does this occur, and can it be filmed?
<hr /></blockquote>

How about trying it on a nine ball break? With no english and a straight on hit the cue ball will rebound back off the rack. The additional weight of the rack would cause the cue ball to deform more.

My Banking with the Beard isn't here yet.

Billy_Bob
07-14-2005, 08:48 AM
Well there is the "contact time" thing. A phenolic tip -vs- a very soft leather tip (elk master?) and maybe a hard leather tip.

Nostroke
07-14-2005, 09:15 AM
Someone recently asked why the CB jumps up after hitting the pack on what seem to be the very best breaks. Id like to see just what happens here.

BigRigTom
07-14-2005, 10:45 AM
Could you film a really good "baseball - curve ball pitch" for behind the plate?

Not pool but a really cool thing to watch.

cheese_ball
07-14-2005, 11:25 AM
Dr. D-

Please shoot some video of illegal "push-shots" and double hits. Especially driving into the rock when it is touching or extremely close to the OB. Also, a slight variation, show what happens when someone's cue is elevated and they drive down into the CB with a punch draw stroke in attempt to make this shot legally... is this really legal? No need to explain, I'd really like to see the video!!! Thanks for your contribution to the billiards community, your work has had a great impact on my game. It is not until we understand the physics of what goes on in the world around us that we can begin to manipulate it.

Thanks again,

Billy_Bob
07-14-2005, 11:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheese_ball:</font><hr>Please shoot some video of illegal "push-shots" and double hits... <hr /></blockquote>

Actually a few still pictures of both of these would be *very* helpful for explaining these things to those who do not know what a double hit or a push shot is. Something which could be printed on a sheet of paper (with a link to your web site of course...)

dr_dave
07-14-2005, 12:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>... Is "OB skid" the same as "CB cling?" I've heard people use those terms interchangeably, and I have always assumed they are the same effect, but I'm not sure.
... <hr /></blockquote>
As the RSB FAQ points out, cling, skid and "kick" all describe the phenomenon of high cue-ball-to-object-ball friction. The last is used in the UK for billiards and snooker.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html

Sometimes people use "skid" to describe a ball that has not achieved smooth rolling yet, and of course "kick" means something entirely different in the US. <hr /></blockquote>
Thanks Bob. I've also heard "drag" used interchangeably for both "cling" AND "skid." Very confusing.

I personally like "skid" for CB sliding before rolling and "cling" (or "push") for excessive friction between the CB and OB during a cut shot.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
07-14-2005, 12:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dr. Dave, sorry if you have already covered this.....
But...in my new "Banking with the Beard" book (great book, by the way) he states that the balls will "flatten" on contact, from 1/16", to 5/16" for a very hard stroke.
Does this occur, and can it be filmed?
... <hr /></blockquote>
Balls do flatten, but I think it isn't nearly that much. It's easy to find the diameter of the flat spot, and I found it to be about 6mm for a fairly hard shot. A diameter of 6mm on the flat spot gives a flattening of 1/6mm on the ball.

To see 1/6 mm of ball flattening, I think you would need a very good lens and a very bright light. That's 1/160 of an inch. <hr /></blockquote>
I agree completely with Bob. The spherical shape and phenolic material make the balls extremely stiff and resistant to deformation. I think the deformation is certainly much too small to see with my equipment. I will film a close-up of a straight-on, hard shot to show (or rather, not show) this.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
07-14-2005, 12:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
Good idea, Chris. I'll add this to the list. Maybe I can help "encourage" the action by rubbing a little chalk on the contact point of the OB. (If I do this, I will be sure to report it when I post the clip.)
<hr /></blockquote>

Well Dave it isn't hard to recreate. Just have a soda, burger and french fries when you play. Oh yes be sure not to clean your hands like the clowns at the pool room.<hr /></blockquote>
Rod,

Thanks for the advice, but I think I'll just stick to chalk.

Dave

Jal
07-14-2005, 12:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>... 1) I would be interested (and who wouldn't) in seeing what happens to the 3-ball during the collision for the trick shot shown below (2 &amp; 3-ball into corner pocket A, 1-ball into the other corner pocket). It works for me using about a quarter ball hit on the 1-ball with right english. The object balls are frozen to each other.
... <hr /></blockquote>
I think the whole sequence is fairly obvious just from the combination, kiss and carom lines. Is there something you see that cannot be explained by that? <hr /></blockquote>

I thought that the 3-ball gets pushed away (sqeezed out) while the 1 and 2 are being compressed.

Unless I'm hitting it thinner than I'm aware of, it doesn't appear to me that a quarter ball hit on the 1-ball would produce the right carom angle on the three. I would think that the three would be overcut to the left of the pocket, especially when the english throw is factored in.

On one of his tapes Willie Mosconi said to hit the one right of center (I believe he says something like "a little right of center", but I might be wrong), with high-right, implying a much fuller hit on the 1-ball. (I don't know what the "high" would be for since there hardly seems to be enough time for the follow to have any effect, except maybe to moderate the throw on the 3-ball.)

When I set them up the line-of-centers between the cueball and three are roughly parallel that of the 1-2, which is pointing slightly to the right of the pocket. A simultaneous hit on the 1-3 should throw the three into the pocket (or come very close) but this requires a 60 deg cut on the one, considerably thinner than a quarter ball hit.

Thus, my assumption about the 3-ball getting shoved over a little by the other balls before the cueball makes contact with it?

Jim

dr_dave
07-14-2005, 01:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>1) I would be interested (and who wouldn't) in seeing what happens to the 3-ball during the collision for the trick shot shown below (2 &amp; 3-ball into corner pocket A, 1-ball into the other corner pocket). It works for me using about a quarter ball hit on the 1-ball with right english. The object balls are frozen to each other.

START(
%AP2Q2%BO4P2%CP6P0%DB6[5%EB8[5%FB2[8%GB3\1%HB7[6%IB9[6%JB6[8
%KB9[9%LB1[7%MB9[7%NB9[7%OB6[5%PU5T6%QA8B1%R]0_1%WR0Q7%XT6S9
%eC4a4
)END<hr /></blockquote>
Do you expect to see anything that interesting that would require high-speed photography? Please let me know before I add it to the list (which is getting very long already).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>2) One of your videos is of a more or less straight on shot with the cueball frozen to an object ball - perhaps the same shot with a center-ball hit at a couple of "cut" angles (say, somewhere between 20-40 deg). The cueball should come off at an angle whose tangent is approximately twice that of the angle between the direction of the cue stick and the line-of-centers between the balls (Jewett's interference system).<hr /></blockquote>
Great idea! I've added it to the list.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>3) Maria Sharapova hitting a serve (or anything). There may be some superficial differences between tennis and pool but I would think that the underlying physics is pretty much the same. This could be an opportunity to prove it (although much follow up research would probably be called for).<hr /></blockquote>
If you can convince Maria to fly to Fort Collins and spend many hours in my basement (or a nearby tennis court if necessary), I would be more than happy to sacrifice my time for science. I am a scientist (actually, an engineer) after all. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
07-14-2005, 01:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nostroke:</font><hr> Someone recently asked why the CB jumps up after hitting the pack on what seem to be the very best breaks. Id like to see just what happens here.<hr /></blockquote>
I posted that question along with my answer in another thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=199968&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1). There was no discussion there, so I will assume most people agree with my answer.

I do plan to try to film more power breaks with a closer up view on the CB and lead ball to see the CB height more clearly at impact.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
07-14-2005, 02:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Could you film a really good "baseball - curve ball pitch" for behind the plate?<hr /></blockquote>
Sorry, my baseball throw is not as good as it used to be. Also, there's not much room in my basement. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But seriously, regular video is more than ample to capture and visualize curve ball action.

In general, high-speed-video is good and necessary for things that happen very quickly (i.e., too fast to see with a normal video camera), and have significant visual effects (e.g., pool ball compression is too minimal to see, even with high-speed video).

Regards,
Dave

PS: Thanks for contributing a non-pool idea. I thought people would have all kinds of wild and crazy ideas, but no others have been posted yet.

dr_dave
07-14-2005, 02:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheese_ball:</font><hr>Please shoot some video of illegal "push-shots" and double hits. Especially driving into the rock when it is touching or extremely close to the OB. Also, a slight variation, show what happens when someone's cue is elevated and they drive down into the CB with a punch draw stroke in attempt to make this shot legally... is this really legal? No need to explain, I'd really like to see the video!!! Thanks for your contribution to the billiards community, your work has had a great impact on my game. It is not until we understand the physics of what goes on in the world around us that we can begin to manipulate it.<hr /></blockquote>
Thanks for the ideas and positive feedback. I already have some related clips (e.g., HSV A.9 - A.12 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html)), but I will shoot many more per your recommendations.

Regards,
Dave

Nostroke
07-14-2005, 03:45 PM
That's what im looking for -thanks

Bob_Jewett
07-14-2005, 05:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>...

I thought that the 3-ball gets pushed away (sqeezed out) while the 1 and 2 are being compressed.
...
Thus, my assumption about the 3-ball getting shoved over a little by the other balls before the cueball makes contact with it? <hr /></blockquote>

I don't think the balls compress that much. See my other recent comment about that.

I think the 3-ball doesn't move by being hit by the 1 or 2. That means it has to wait for the cue ball. The cue ball has left the 1 and the 1 and 2 are both in motion before the cue ball hits the 3. I agree that the carom angle looks a little funny on the three, but I suspect that is just an optical illusion.

To get an exact hit on the 1 without spin, you can set the cue ball up 1mm from the 1 and then shoot a ball into the cue ball.

Jal
07-14-2005, 08:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>1) I would be interested (and who wouldn't) in seeing what happens to the 3-ball during the collision for the trick shot shown below....<hr /></blockquote>
Do you expect to see anything that interesting that would require high-speed photography? Please let me know before I add it to the list (which is getting very long already).<hr /></blockquote>

Well I guess you should nix it. Between your suspicion that nothing much of interest will occur, and Bob Jewett's comments above, my theory that the 3-ball will be pushed to the side is apparently wrong. A simple test of course would be to simply hit the 1-ball very full with draw and see what happens, which I'll try when I get to a table, but I can see the handwriting on the wall. Thanks for considering it even with the heavy agenda you're now accumulating.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>3) Maria Sharapova hitting a serve ...<hr /></blockquote>
....I would be more than happy to sacrifice my time for science.
<hr /></blockquote>

I thought that the prospect of demonstating the universality of these principles would whet your appetite. I just knew it! Sadly, Maria will be busy during those dates - a few days this way or that way and she might have been able to make it. GOOD NEWS though, I believe Andre Agassi is available. I'll see what I can do.

Thanks again for your tireless efforts.

Jim /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

dr_dave
07-15-2005, 07:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheese_ball:</font><hr>Please shoot some video of illegal "push-shots" and double hits... <hr /></blockquote>

Actually a few still pictures of both of these would be *very* helpful for explaining these things to those who do not know what a double hit or a push shot is. Something which could be printed on a sheet of paper (with a link to your web site of course...)<hr /></blockquote>
I have an article planned for this. Keep an eye out for it in the instructional articles area of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html) a few months from now.

Regards,
Dave

Billy_Bob
07-15-2005, 08:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I have an article planned for this... <hr /></blockquote>

Bless you!

Rod
07-17-2005, 11:17 PM
Dave, I thought of several but I'm thinking of just one right now.

I'll use the wei for a set up. The clearance between these balls is appx 1/8". You shoot the 1 in the corner, draw the c/b 2 or more rails for position on the 9. I'd imagine you'll need a pool player to make this one. LOL

I'm just curious what takes place here. Of course the cue tip contact time should be greater, more shaft flex, etc. Just like to see it slowed up. You have some good players in your area, see if one can make it. I suppose even if no one can produce but at least stops the c/b from going forward would be good enough.

START(
%Ah2E6%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I D4O3%Pi6E8
%WE4G9%Xm7[3%Yn3Z8%Zs4U8%]U9D1%^m4F1%_s0T8%`k3M9%ah6E9
)END

Rod

theinel
07-23-2005, 02:20 AM
Hi Dave,

Sorry I read this too late. I would have loved to be there to take part in your experiments. I'm not writing with ideas or suggestions but just to say thank you for your open invitation to participate. If you ever have another similar session I will make it a point to attend and lend whatever meager help my skills and pool enthusiasm have to offer.

I hope things went well and that you have lots of new data to report soon. Thanks again,

dr_dave
07-23-2005, 09:29 AM
I just finished filming yesterday. I'm exhausted!

I hope to post all of the clips by the end of next week.

I'll be sure to announce before I film again in the future.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr> Hi Dave,

Sorry I read this too late. I would have loved to be there to take part in your experiments. I'm not writing with ideas or suggestions but just to say thank you for your open invitation to participate. If you ever have another similar session I will make it a point to attend and lend whatever meager help my skills and pool enthusiasm have to offer.

I hope things went well and that you have lots of new data to report soon. Thanks again, <hr /></blockquote>