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Fran Crimi
07-17-2005, 10:59 PM
I was taught it in 1985 by a hustler who explained it as "another way to apply english," so I know it was around at least sometime before 1985. Does anyone have or know of any experience with it before then? I was wondering how far back in time it goes.

Fran

Rod
07-17-2005, 11:37 PM
Fran, I think we need a defination. BHE. The new term, if I'm correct, is aming with center ball, then pivot your cue.

The old method is what I call a side stroke. So it's static aim, then pivot, or you change cue motion on the delivery. Swiping across the c/b has been around well before me. Older that dirt. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

At any rate, BHE has been around for a long time its a matter of how you execute. Good question BTW, I haven't a clue about the new term since I wasn't playing during that time.

Rod

theinel
07-18-2005, 12:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>...Swiping across the c/b has been around well before me. Older that dirt...<hr /></blockquote>

Excellent point Rod. I first read about center ball aim combined with pivot point creating BHE here some time ago but 10 years ago I was shown by a guy (who had been taught about it before I was born) how to move the cue sideways during the stroke. I can create serious side spin (english) with it but potting accuracy goes down the more the cue is moved to the side. Lots of feel is required. It is basically a fouette shot with the cue ball farther away from the object ball.

Voodoo Daddy
07-18-2005, 03:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Fran, I think we need a defination. BHE. The new term, if I'm correct, is aming with center ball, then pivot your cue.

The old method is what I call a side stroke. So it's static aim, then pivot, or you change cue motion on the delivery. Swiping across the c/b has been around well before me. Older that dirt. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

At any rate, BHE has been around for a long time its a matter of how you execute. Good question BTW, I haven't a clue about the new term since I wasn't playing during that time.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

If the pivot motion is BHE, its been around for awhile. Johnny Ervolino told me he had used it since he was a kid...didnt know that was the term for it. I learned something today and its only 7:00AM, /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fred Agnir
07-18-2005, 06:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>...Swiping across the c/b has been around well before me. Older that dirt...<hr /></blockquote>

... I was shown by a guy (who had been taught about it before I was born) how to move the cue sideways during the stroke. <hr /></blockquote>This isn't what we have been representing as BHE. The swiping technique (sideways motion during the stroke) is what I've been calling "dynamic back-hand english." It might be the same as what Filipinos call Carabao English (Waterbuffalo English).

That being said, if your pivot point for your cuestick coincides with your bridge length, then the swiping technique should also work. It's not my preference to swipe, but whatever floats your boat.

Fred

Cane
07-18-2005, 06:34 AM
The cue center and pivot is what I was taught when I was too short to reach the table (dragged one of those wooden Cola bottl crates around to stand on), but it didn't have a name back then, at least not that I knew of. That was 30 years ago or so.

Later,
Bob

Fred Agnir
07-18-2005, 06:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I was taught it in 1985 by a hustler who explained it as "another way to apply english," so I know it was around at least sometime before 1985. Does anyone have or know of any experience with it before then? I was wondering how far back in time it goes.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>There is a drawing ( from Bob Jewett's Site (http://www.sfbilliards.com/misc.htm) from an 1839 publication that clearly shows a pivot point for squirt compensation. So, at least back then.


Fred

Qtec
07-18-2005, 07:08 AM
Definition:
[ FTR, Pivoting and pivot point are two different things.]



The Shot: 1/2 ball cut to the right.

Pivoting: Lets say the pivot point of a cue is 12 ins. Line up a 1/2 ball shot with you bridge at 12 ins away from the Ob,[ the pivot point] aiming thru the middle of the Qb. If you now pivot on this point, any tip offset will/ should be compensated by squirt and the the ball will go[ appear to go] striaght to the target. Once this Q-line is established, you can place your bridge hand anywhre along the Q line.


BHE: To make the same shot with BHE, you cannot aim as before. With BHE you use squirt to make the shot. ie, if I was to get down on the shot and I would be shooting too thin, I could use a little LHE to squirt the Ob to the right, just by pivoting the Q. To me thats BHE.

Am I close?

Qtec

Troy
07-18-2005, 07:11 AM
The biggest problem I've found with "swipe while you stroke" is accuracy -- both making the OB and controlling the amount of CB spin.
I use "aim then pivot".

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>It's not my preference to swipe, but whatever floats your boat.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred Agnir
07-18-2005, 07:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Definition:
[ FTR, Pivoting and pivot point are two different things.]



The Shot: 1/2 ball cut to the right.

Pivoting: Lets say the pivot point of a cue is 12 ins. Line up a 1/2 ball shot with you bridge at 12 ins away from the Ob,[ the pivot point] aiming thru the middle of the Qb. If you now pivot on this point, any tip offset will/ should be compensated by squirt and the the ball will go[ appear to go] striaght to the target. Once this Q-line is established, you can place your bridge hand anywhre along the Q line. <hr /></blockquote>This is Backhand English. It is also Aim and Pivot. They are the same technique, as long as the cuestick's particulat Pivot Point is near the bridge length.

I consider Aim and Pivot as "Advanced Backhand English." Before cuemakers started screwing around with low squirt cues, most cues had about the same Pivot Point. And it happens to coincide right around the bridge length. So, old-timers who used Backhand English neither new or cared that their stick had something that we call a Pivot Point, nor did they care why using Backhand English worked.

Today, with so many different configurations in shafts, Backhand English will only work with the more traditional shafts. Other shafts with low squirt have Points in excess of 20"-40". So, standard Backhand English isn't easy to do. You'd have to Aim, Pivot at the Pivot Point, and Slide your bridge hand forward. Or use Front Hand English, where your grip hand is at the Pivot Point, and you move the tip with your front hand. Obviously, easier to show than tell.

Fred

Qtec
07-18-2005, 07:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
So, old-timers who used Backhand English neither new or cared that their stick had something that we call a Pivot Point, nor did they care why using Backhand English worked.
<hr /></blockquote>

Are you trying to get personal! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Ha.
Thats sounds like me! Thats a cheap shot Fred! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Although I will say, I never found that method reliable at long distance.

What would you call this:
[ QUOTE ]
BHE: To make the same shot with BHE, you cannot aim as before. With BHE you use squirt to make the shot. ie, if I was to get down on the shot and I would be shooting too thin, I could use a little LHE to squirt the Ob to the right, just by pivoting the Q. <hr /></blockquote>

Q

Billy_Bob
07-18-2005, 08:51 AM
FYI - Using my Predator 314 shaft, which has the pivot point WAY back... I use what I call "front hand english".

I aim dead center, keep my back hand still, but move my front hand left/right for english.

If I aim at the far center diamond, cue ball will go to same spot as a dead center hit.

With my old cue, I would aim dead center, keep my front hand still, and move my back hand for english. Then cue ball would go to same spot as dead center hit.

freddythebeard
07-18-2005, 09:00 AM
You call it swiping, we called it "swooping" into eng. You line up as if you were going to shoot with center axis and then in the delivery "swoop" and pivot the tip into the desired eng. It works ok on easy tables and especially short, easy shots -- like you would encounter in straight-pool. That accounts for its popularity years ago. It is not so prevalant with today's players. I stopped using it 30 yrs. ago, although I still believe there is merit to it when you have a medium close shot and want to follow forward with inside, reverse eng. I think that was probably its best application.
the Beard

Fran Crimi
07-18-2005, 09:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Fran, I think we need a defination. BHE. The new term, if I'm correct, is aming with center ball, then pivot your cue.

The old method is what I call a side stroke. So it's static aim, then pivot, or you change cue motion on the delivery. Swiping across the c/b has been around well before me. Older that dirt. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

At any rate, BHE has been around for a long time its a matter of how you execute. Good question BTW, I haven't a clue about the new term since I wasn't playing during that time.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

Right, Rod...which brings me to the reason for my post. I was taught the swipe method myself. Earl seems to play alright with that method. The person who taught me also taught Earl and I've seen Earl in action using it.

There may be a few different ways of going about it, but it's all based on the same premise of minimizing cb squirt when applying sidespin. I've found that a lot of people think it's a new concept. It's been given a new name, but the concept is plenty old.

A friend of mine who was a pro in the 60's said he was taught the pivot method, as opposed to swiping the cue, but without mention of placing your bridge hand on the pivot point of the cue, yet didn't seem to have any trouble running hundreds, particularly since they used much shorter bridge lengths back then. Even though they shot mostly shorter shots, they did have to come with the big shots now and then. I'm sure they must have used sidespin on at least some of those big shots.

Fran

Eric.
07-18-2005, 11:15 AM
I couldn't tell you the origin, but I do know that Buddy Hall referred to it as "tuck and roll" which is basically all the same stuff discussed here.


Eric

Fran Crimi
07-18-2005, 11:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> I couldn't tell you the origin, but I do know that Buddy Hall referred to it as "tuck and roll" which is basically all the same stuff discussed here.


Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Right, I remember Buddy using that term. That's another way to describe the swipe method.

Fran

Cane
07-18-2005, 11:41 AM
Off topic for a second, here... WELCOME TO CCB, FREDDY. Glad to have you aboard and looking forward to your posts. Also looking forward to getting your book and reading it.

Later,
Bob

Voodoo Daddy
07-18-2005, 01:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote freddythebeard:</font><hr> You call it swiping, we called it "swooping" into eng. You line up as if you were going to shoot with center axis and then in the delivery "swoop" and pivot the tip into the desired eng. It works ok on easy tables and especially short, easy shots -- like you would encounter in straight-pool. That accounts for its popularity years ago. It is not so prevalant with today's players. I stopped using it 30 yrs. ago, although I still believe there is merit to it when you have a medium close shot and want to follow forward with inside, reverse eng. I think that was probably its best application.
the Beard <hr /></blockquote>

Freddy...all I will say is "bout time you showed up"!!

SpiderMan
07-18-2005, 02:22 PM
Before the advent of sensitivity training, it was strictly a police tool in the southwestern states.

SpiderMan

Fran Crimi
07-18-2005, 03:35 PM
HERE HERE!!

denoandrews
07-18-2005, 09:42 PM
Hi Fran,

I think back hand english has been around nearly as long as the leather tip. The earliest reference I have seen in my library is from 1839 in the book "Kentfield on Billiards." I think that Bob Jewett has a photo of the diagram on his web page sfbilliards.com. If it is no longer up or you can't find it, let me know and I can send you a photo copy from my book.

Deno Andrews

Fran Crimi
07-19-2005, 07:12 AM
Well I'll be...

I heard you joined the French Foreign Legion. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Good to see you, Deno.

Thanks for the info.

Show your face once in awhile, willya?

Fran

denoandrews
07-19-2005, 07:39 AM
...Almost joined them! Nice to see your name too Fran.
Deno

Eric.
07-19-2005, 12:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Before the advent of sensitivity training, it was strictly a police tool in the southwestern states.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

I was under the impression that information on Backhand English could be found in the Library under "Child Psychology". From my under standing, Backhand English is a precursor to the more recent, modern day application known as "Bitch Slap" /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


Eric &gt;you had to get me started...

SpiderMan
07-19-2005, 02:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Before the advent of sensitivity training, it was strictly a police tool in the southwestern states.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

I was under the impression that information on Backhand English could be found in the Library under "Child Psychology". From my under standing, Backhand English is a precursor to the more recent, modern day application known as "Bitch Slap" /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Eric &gt;you had to get me started... <hr /></blockquote>

In areas of southern California, New Mexico, and the Texas Rio Grande Valley, Border Patrol agents once noted "the more backhand you use, the more English you get".

SpiderMan

charlieb
07-20-2005, 12:27 AM
Hate to show my ignorance but how do you determine the exact pivot point?

Fred Agnir
07-20-2005, 06:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote charlieb:</font><hr> Hate to show my ignorance but how do you determine the exact pivot point? <hr /></blockquote>

For standard (non-Predator, non Meucci Red Dot, etc.) shafts...

From the RSB FAQ:


The "aim-and-pivot" method of squirt compensation:

For each cue stick, there is a particular length of bridge for
which you can aim straight at a close object ball and then pivot
about your bridge hand and shoot straight through the new line and
hit the object ball full. (You can also use this (very old) method
for non-full shots too, but a full shot is best for finding the
right bridge length.) For a stick you want to measure, just find
the needed bridge length. A hint: if you shoot softly at a ball
far away, the cue ball will curve on its way to the object ball,
and your measurement will be useless. Do not give the cue ball the
time or distance to curve. Shoot firmly. Use as much side spin
as you can without miscuing. The shorter the bridge, the more
squirt the stick has. ("Close object ball" means about a diamond
away.) The cue ball should sit in place spinning like a top when
it hits the object ball full.

----------------------------------------

Fred's addition: If you are testing using right hand english, and after the shot the cueball moves to the right, then you've overcompensated. That is, your pivot point is longer than the one you just tested. If it moves to the left, then your pivot point is shorter.

Remember, this is pivot point test, not a bridge length test.
In the following Wei diagram, using right hand english and hitting firmly, the <font color="red">red arrow</font color> is the cuestick aim for centerball while the <font color="green">green arrow</font color> is the pivoted cuestick after applying backhand english. The <font color="yellow">yellow</font color> arrow is pointing the Pivot Point. And "A" is where the cueball should stop dead spinning like crazy.


START(
%AT2N0%PX4P1%QT4M8%U]6Q6%V_5O8%WZ2Q3%Xh5Y1%YZ1P9%Zg9Y9%eC3a4

)END

Most standard shafts have a Pivot Point right around the bridge length such that most shot, all you would do is pivot at your bridge. For other shafts that have longer or shorter Pivot Points, you'd pivot at the Pivot Point, then slide your bridge hand to whatever bridge length you want, keeping with the new cuestick angle (the green arrow).

Fred

recoveryjones
07-20-2005, 11:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> I couldn't tell you the origin, but I do know that Buddy Hall referred to it as "tuck and roll" which is basically all the same stuff discussed here.


Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Right, I remember Buddy using that term. That's another way to describe the swipe method.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Tuck and roll and backhand english are different,however,closely related because they both apply english by swiping accross the cue ball rather than the standard snooker style that hits straight through the cue ball to apply english. Iuse all three types of english depending on the situation.

Here's how I apply backhand english:

First I decide what english I want to apply to get the desired cue ball shape route path.

Then I line up that shot with center ball either high,mid or low at varying heights up and down the cue ball depending my needs for the required shot.

I then aim at the object ball(with intentions of potting it) with the desired center ball hit height on the cue ball.

Next I apply desired amount of right or left english by moving my backhand to the left or right while keeping my bridge hand perfectly still.

Once I've lined the desired left or right english (with the desired cue ball height), I now stroke straight down that new line. For me it's deadly accurate on the shorter shots and also works OK on long shots as well.


Here's a deadly tip I read about on a pool forum somewhere that seems to work quite well FOR ME and I don't worry about pivot points on the cue.For shots I want to shoot hard, take a short 6-8 inch bridge,apply the BHE and fire away.For finesse shots that I want to shoot soft I take a very long 10-12 inch bridge and fire away.For me the results are deadly.This short bridge-long bridge method seems to defy logic.

I say this because usually it's the opposite(traditionally taught anyways) when it comes to hard shots and soft shots, however, not so with back hand english, at least FOR ME.Normally for a finessse shot, I've been taught to take a shorter bridge and for power shots and longer bridge, which all makes sense.....right??However, for BHE,FOR ME I've found the opposite (accuracy wise) to be true.

I'm not here to argue with experts or the guru's here on this forum with regards to short/long bridges when it comes to BHE. I'm just simply sharing a secret that was passed on to me and works great FOR ME.I can only suggest that if it works for anyone else (After trying it for more than two friggin minutes), then put it in your arsenal.If it's inneffective, then scrap the idea.

Maybe it works for me, my stroke and my cue.The only way to find out (for you) is, be open-minded and give it a try,like I did.

As for tuck and roll, Buddy Hall explains how to apply it on his vid called"The Clock System" and Bert Kinister explains it on his vid called "The Deflection tape"

Here's how I apply tuck and roll:
Line up the shot to make the pot with a center ball hit at varying heights up and down the center of the cue ball, depending on your shot shape route requirments.

On the final stroke either tuck inwards or roll out wards(some refer to this tucking and rolling as forking) to the right or left depending whether you want right or left hand english. I don't feel comfortable being able to explain how that's accomplished (see Buddy's vid) however, I know that Buddy Hall and Earl Strickland apply english in this manner and are extremley deadly with it.

When using BHE or tuck and roll you don't need to worry about aim compensation (aiming at object ball thick or thin)because those methods of applying english (swiping accross the cue ball)take care of those worrys for you. That's the beauty of those methods of english.

Tuck and roll and backhand english also work great with aiming sytems whereas straight through the cue ball english isn't compatible,at least with the aiming systems I use.

Having said that there are still certain shots that I prefer straight through english to get the desired results, however, I stick mostly to BHE and tuck and roll because of the consistency they offer over the risks associated with the required compensation factors of straight through englsh.RJ

Fred Agnir
07-22-2005, 07:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>
Tuck and roll and backhand english are different,however,closely related because they both apply english by swiping accross the cue ball rather than the standard snooker style that hits straight through the cue ball to apply english.<hr /></blockquote>Wait a second. The first time on the internet anyone ever used the term "Backhand English," was about 7 years ago when Hal Houle started posting. Never did he ever suggest, imply, or otherwise say to do any such swooping or swerving.

And what in the world is the "snooker style" that hits straight through with english? Why isn't that just the normal style?

Fred

Bob_Jewett
07-22-2005, 11:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>... Wait a second. The first time on the internet anyone ever used the term "Backhand English," was about 7 years ago when Hal Houle started posting. Never did he ever suggest, imply, or otherwise say to do any such swooping or swerving.
... <hr /></blockquote>
If you go to google groups and search on the phrase

method of aiming or applying English

you will find a post from Leon Waki about "back-hand English" from January 1996. He notes a very interesting source for the term.

But since we can't even agree on what "throw" and "skid" mean, I think it's improbable that we will soon come to an agreement on "back-hand english." Not to mention "deflection."

Personally, I take back-hand english to be identical in meaning to "aim and pivot" with the possible extra restriction that the bridge length be the same as the pivot point for back-hand english, while for aim and pivot, the pivot point isn't necessarily at the bridge. This is because to me, "back-hand" implies that the front hand is not involved, and presumably stationary.

Aim-and-pivot (about the bridge hand) was described in alt.sport.pool by Graham Cairns in December 1993, and called "aim and pivot" in April 1994.

recoveryjones
07-22-2005, 07:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>
Tuck and roll and backhand english are different,however,closely related because they both apply english by swiping accross the cue ball rather than the standard snooker style that hits straight through the cue ball to apply english.<hr /></blockquote>Wait a second. The first time on the internet anyone ever used the term "Backhand English," was about 7 years ago when Hal Houle started posting. Never did he ever suggest, imply, or otherwise say to do any such swooping or swerving.

And what in the world is the "snooker style" that hits straight through with english? Why isn't that just the normal style?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe Hal didn't mention coming across the cue ball, however, that's exactly what happens when back hand english( and/or tuck and roll) is applied. Figure it out for yourself.

When using backhand english you aim to pot the object ball with a center ball( at varying heights up and down the center of the cue ball)cue ball hit lineup.When you pivot your back hand(to apply english) left or right (and keep your bridge hand perfectly still)and then stroke down that new line, it's quite obvious that you are coming across the cue ball and it doesn't take a genius to see that.

The cue enters a certain portion of the cue ball (on the front side of it) and passes through an entirley different portion of the cue ball( imagine if the cue ball was to stay stationary)when going out the backside.Obviously if it's not coming through the same portion of the backside of the cue ball as it entered through the front portion of the cue ball, then it is coming across the cueball. This is brutally obvious.

Anyways if you still think I'm full of $hit, get a copy of Buddy Hall's "The Clock System." In that video HE distinctly mentions the words QUOTE: "Coming across the cueball"to apply tuck and roll english.If you think Buddy Hall is full of [censored], then you've really got big ego problems.

Furthermore on the snooker style/straight through english (comparison) quote by me, I think most could get the jest of what I was saying(comparing bhe to straight through english) and your nit picky-ness of that, was perhaps just attention seeking strategy(look at me, I'm smarter than thou, Freddy) on your part and totally unnessecary,as my comparison point was clearly made.JMO, RJ

Fred Agnir
07-23-2005, 10:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> Maybe Hal didn't mention coming across the cue ball, however, that's exactly what happens when back hand english( and/or tuck and roll) is applied. Figure it out for yourself.<hr /></blockquote> No, it isn't what happens. That's what I'm saying. In the Backhand English that Hal Houle has been teaching for several years on the internet, there is not crossing, swooping, or swerving. It is most definitely "straight through hitting." It is obvious you are confusing the Tuck and Roll with Backhand English. Though they are related, they are clearly not the same by the distinction that there is no swooping in Hal Houle's version of Backhand English. You pivot prior to shooting, not during.



[ QUOTE ]
Anyways if you still think I'm full of $hit, get a copy of Buddy Hall's "The Clock System." In that video HE distinctly mentions the words QUOTE: "Coming across the cueball"to apply tuck and roll english.If you think Buddy Hall is full of [censored], then you've really got big ego problems.<hr /></blockquote> I'm not sure what your problem is.. I do not nor did I ever say anything about Buddy Hall or the Tuck and Roll System. Your accusation has no merit.


[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore on the snooker style/straight through english (comparison) quote by me, I think most could get the jest of what I was saying(comparing bhe to straight through english) and your nit picky-ness of that, was perhaps just attention seeking strategy(look at me, I'm smarter than thou, Freddy) on your part and totally unnessecary,as my comparison point was clearly made.JMO, RJ<hr /></blockquote> No sir. I think you are confusing Tuck and Roll with Backhand English and vise versa. I'm sorry it took you to insult me before you understood it. Straight through "snooker style shooting" is exactly what most pool players do, and is exactly what is prescribed by Backhand English. That's why I was asking. I thought I was clear.

Fred &lt;~~~ sick and tired of being misrepresented

recoveryjones
07-23-2005, 06:59 PM
Fred, I'm well aware of the difference between backhand english and tuck and roll english. I'm also aware that english used for each is applied in a different manor.

With backhand english....YES...you preset the english by moving your back hand.

With backhand english...YES.... you stroke in a straight line once that desired english(backhand pivot) has been selected.

However,(after pivoting your backhand) once you stroke STRAIGHT down that new line, you are coming across the cue ball, IN MY OPINION.

To illustrate the point I'm trying to make,imagine a stationary cue ball(that doesn't move) that you can shoot your cue right through.The cue enters the the cue ball through the front side and comes out the backside of the cue ball during the follow through.

With the standard straight on english the cue will enter through the cue ball on the front side and come straight out the backside of the cueball in the exact same spot.

With backhand english the cue will enter the cue ball front side at a certain fractional proportion and come out the backside at an entirley different fractional proportion. This clearly shows that one is coming across the cue ball when applying BHE, at least in my opinion.

BHE and tuck and roll are closely related english cousins in my opinion.One presets the arm stroke path and the other does the exact same thing, (only in motion)to accomplish the exact same cue ball path IF both are struck at the exact identical cue ball location and are the identical shot.Both come across the cue ball.

How do you find out that what I say is true. Do this exeperiment:

Mark out a shot on the pool table say a 30 degree cut shot.
Shoot the exact same shot(speed wise,grip pressure and everything else the same) with running 11 o'clock english and you will see that 11 O'clock backhand english will take you to the same place on the rail that 11 o'clock tuck and roll english did.On the otherhand straight on english at 11 o'clock will take you a diamond different down the rail.Why do BHE and tuck and roll produce the exact same results? Because they both come across the cue ball when english is apllied.

If straight on english and BHE english are both straight through the cue ball english, why the different results?

Anyways if you still disagree with me, that's cool and I respect your thoughts on it.I also apologize for being in a snappy mood and being rude to you as I was clearly in the wrong with my behavior there.It was totally uncalled for and I stand corrected.Everyone who posts here has a right to express there opinion on how they see things.RJ

Fred Agnir
07-23-2005, 09:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> With the standard straight on english the cue will enter through the cue ball on the front side and come straight out the backside of the cueball in the exact same spot.

With backhand english the cue will enter the cue ball front side at a certain fractional proportion and come out the backside at an entirley different fractional proportion. <hr /></blockquote>I don't see why you think these two come out different. Backhand English as Hal Houle teaches has nothing to do with the execution, but only the aim. What you describe as "straight through english" is the same as what you would normally do with Backhand ENglish. Once you have the aim, you would stroke straight through. In fact, once you've performed the aim adjustment using Backhand English, there would be zero difference from that point on. Executing the shot would be completely a separate issue.

So far, what others have been talking about (swiping) has been called:

swooping into english
tuck and roll
Carabao English.

None are what Hal Houle describes as Backhand English. Again, Backhand English is not a technique; it's an aim. See my other aiming thread to see just one example of Backhand English. You'll see that Backhand English is even used to find the center ball aim. Certainly, a centerball shot has no "coming across," right?

Fred

recoveryjones
07-23-2005, 09:52 PM
I see it the way I see it and you see it the way you see it.No need to comment any further. take care, RJ

Alfie
07-23-2005, 10:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I thought I was clear.

Fred &lt;~~~ sick and tired of being misrepresented<hr /></blockquote>Fred, you must be much more precise when writing between the lines, IMO.

Tommy_Davidson
07-26-2005, 03:33 AM
&gt; The first time I heard anything about it was on the videos Meucci produced back about 15 years ago,with Jim Rempe and Loree Jon. He described it as a wrist technique where you either roll your hand toward or away from your strong side hip,to "induce" spin,such as killing a ball along the rail by hitting it real full with outside
spin,or for killing a ball 2 rails out of the corner with inside spin. At first I thought this wrist technique was just a different method of delivery,if you watch Rempe much at all you notice the actual pivot point in his grip is the 2 middle fingers equally,as opposed to the index finger like most people. I later figured out something for myself about this technique,and variations of it. As opposed to using it to eliminate squirt,or make the cue ball go straight regardless of where you hit it,I use it to "shape" my shots in certain situations,such as aiming to actually miss a particular shot,then use spin to correct the eventual contact point. Most people that use this line up with center ball then hit elsewhere,Bustamante lines pretty much everything up with low left,then goes elsewhere. I use this and 3-4 other things depending on the shot,but do it automatically now. Tommy D.

Fred Agnir
07-26-2005, 05:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I thought I was clear.

Fred &lt;~~~ sick and tired of being misrepresented<hr /></blockquote>Fred, you must be much more precise when writing between the lines, IMO. <hr /></blockquote> Ah. You're probably right. But I write so much, there's never any room between those lines.

Fred