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Leviathan
07-21-2005, 05:11 AM
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%WD3[2%Xa7U8%]D7Y0%^a8U7%eB4b6
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Wei table: http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

I don't understand why this shot works--but it does, and it comes in handy. Note that it isn't an ordinary tangent-line carom shot; the object ball misses the pocket if it travels parallel to the tangent line. The size of the angle between the miss line and the pocket line doesn't seem to be very sensitive to exact aiming of the CB if the balls are frozen and the CB is struck firmly with plenty of draw.

Questions: 1--Must the 1 and 8 be frozen together? 2--What governs the size of the angle between the miss line and the pocket line?

Thanks for any comments!

AS
[I've edited this post in response to Barbara's input--AS]

Barbara
07-21-2005, 05:23 AM
It's a carom shot. Byrne explains these very well in his first book.

If you take your cue and place it above the contact point between the 1 and the 8 and make direct it 90 degrees to the balls, you will notice that the cue will be pointing at the corner pocket. This means that you can hit the 1-ball off the 8 and it will go into the corner pocket.

You're right, this is a very handy shot to know and to know how to shoot a ball into another ball even when they're not frozen.

Barbara

Leviathan
07-21-2005, 05:47 AM
Hi, Barbara. I guess my diagram and explanation aren't clear enough. I'm not asking how an ordinary carom shot works; I'm asking for details about a shot in which the object ball comes off a second ball at an "unnatural" angle because the CB is hit with draw. Thanks for the info--AS

stickman
07-21-2005, 06:18 AM
I've known this for some time, but can't say why it works. I'm sure someone can tell use why? It is just a carom shot that doesn't quite line up. I've used this technique for for years. It doesn't have to be touching, but is easier to see the carom angle, if the balls are touching. Good question. I wonder too. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

stickman
07-21-2005, 06:24 AM
Just a guess, CIT? Where are you Dr. Dave, Bob Jewett, Fred, Fran, ect.? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Edit: Since the draw is then transfered to the object ball to become follow, and the ob becomes the cueball in the case of a carom shot, I believe it is CIT. I could be wrong, though.

Cane
07-21-2005, 06:56 AM
OK, Answers to the questions, first.

1. YES, the 1 ball must be frozen to the 8 ball for this to work

2. You can adjust the angle with speed and spin. In other words, how hard you hit the shot and how much low spin you use will determine how much the 1 ball deviates from the tangent line.

Here's why. It's a occurance called "gear effect". Anytime two balls are frozen together, when the first ball is struck by the cue ball, the first ball, and ONLY the first ball (assuming only two balls frozen), will take a significant amount of the spin from the cue ball. So if you have these frozen, and the 1 ball is pointed to line "A", then you hit the cue ball with low spin, the 1 ball will leave the 8 ball with a bit of overspin causing it to roll forward of the tangent line.

Gearing only effects the frozen balls, and NOT the end ball. To prove this, line up a set of 4 or 5 stripes on the end rail frozen together with the cue ball frozen to them. Now hit the cue ball with extreme right or left. What you will see is that all of the balls in the center of this stack will take spin, but the last ball on the stack will NOT take any spin and will roll straight end over end. No spin whatsoever. Gear effect will only occur if you have a ball frozen to another ball to "trap" it, and extend the marriage or cling time between the CB and the OB.

Now, try to prove the answer to question 1. Set up the shot with a very small gap between the balls and shoot it with low spin on the cue ball. You won't be able to get the 1 ball to take enough spin to go forward of the tangent line. Now freeze them up and shoot it at different speeds with varying amounts of low spin. I think you'll be surprised how much you can actually make the 1 ball deviate from the tangent line using gear effect.

Later,
Bob

Big_Jon
07-21-2005, 07:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> Just a guess, CIT? Where are you Dr. Dave, Bob Jewett, Fred, Fran, ect.? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Edit: Since the draw is then transfered to the object ball to become follow, and the ob becomes the cueball in the case of a carom shot, I believe it is CIT. I could be wrong, though. <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, IMHO it is CIT.
The OB takes on follow from the draw on the CB, and vice-versa.
Knowing that opens up a lot of shots.
Here is another shot that works the same way (though i'm not sure if the CB location is correct.)
START(
%AO3O4%CM5]9%GL6]9%HM8O4%IM7^9%KK4^9%Ph1J5%QB2X3%RA6Z9%WD2[0
%XO0O6%]Q0O3%^g7J8%eB4b6
)END
It comes in handy every now and then.

pooltchr
07-21-2005, 07:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> Since the draw is then transfered to the object ball to become follow <hr /></blockquote>

If this is possible, is it possible for follow on the cue ball to transfer and put draw on an object ball?????

stickman
07-21-2005, 07:10 AM
I've never seen that happen. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Hey, I'm just guessing. It's nice to know, but more important to know what works. Of course, knowing why something works, can add to the number of things you can add to your store of things that work. Does that make sense? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

stickman
07-21-2005, 07:22 AM
Why do the balls have to be touching for the effect to work? No doubt, the farther away the balls are, the less effect it has, but I believe the effect still occurs. Am I wrong? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif Also, does gearing occur on a vertical plane? If so, can you also use follow and reverse the gears? I'm confused. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Sid_Vicious
07-21-2005, 07:37 AM
To a degree, but the lowCB inducing follow on the ob in a running energy, whereas the draw induced ob will not retain enough energy for any applicable results over distance. It would be limited to a much different array of close-up, touchy off angle shots(imo.) sid

Cane
07-21-2005, 07:44 AM
Stickman, Just set it up and try it. What you'll see is that there is not a "significant" amount of transfer of spin on the non frozen balls to make it deviate from the tangent line. You're cling time, in my experience, is greatly reduced by spin. There are three things that have an effect on cling time, angle, speed and spin. The more you spin, the quicker the balls "release" from each other, or the shorter the dwell time, or the "marriage" between the balls. Now, when the balls are frozen, your dwell time is greatly extended, causing the OB to take a significantly greater amount of transferred spin from the CB.

So, I'm not saying that you're wrong. What I'm saying is that there is no "gear effect" on the non frozen balls, and the amount of spin transfer is very minimal compared to the frozen ball situation. It's certainly not enough to cause an OB to deviate several inches from the Tangent Line. As a matter of fact, it was proven to me that you could make a non frozen ball deviate from the T line with spin, but not much. The amount of deviation came out to about a balls width in 90 something feet (something about 2 1/4" movement in 93' 3/8" sticks in my mind, but that may not be the exact numbers). That amount of deviation really isn't significant on a 9 foot table.

Now, nasty balls, cloth with spilled beer or cola dried into them, as someone said, mayo, french fry grease, catsup and a number of other things that screw up our world on the table, may increase the amount of transfer of english that you'll get on a non frozen ball, but in what I consider "normal" conditions, in a decent room, with clean equipment, I think you'll find that the transfer of spin from CB To non-frozen OB is so insignificant that it's not worth considering. Now, cling in general??? Different story!

Damn, I could get into a discertation on Cling here if I'm not careful! LOL Don't want to do that, so for now, we'll just stick to the frozen ball and gear effect. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Later,
Bob

Leviathan
07-21-2005, 07:48 AM
Hi, Steve:

I'm sure you're familiar with this kind of shot, in which draw on the CB causes the 11 to crawl forward and follow the 1 into the pocket:

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%K[5F5%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%P[6K5%Y[5H3%Z[7K4%eB4b5
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[Wei table at http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html ]

However, I can't imagine transferring enough draw to an OB to stop the OB's forward motion and make the OB back up. That would be a sight, wouldn't it? Comparing a draw-to-follow shot to a hypothetical follow-to-draw shot is comparing apples to oranges, IMO, because a draw-to-follow shot doesn't involve reversing rapid forward motion of an OB.

AS

stickman
07-21-2005, 07:56 AM
I think I striped a gear in my brain. All this thinking is causing a me a headache. LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Unfortunately, I am more often than not shooting with dirty balls. I used to clean the tables and balls at the poolhall. The owner now does it himself, or should I say, he is now not doing it himself. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif Anyway, it saves him money, /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif and I have less money to play pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Cane
07-21-2005, 08:19 AM
Stick, you should play in some of the bars around here. Green cloth with brown spots all over it, balls that are so dirty that it looks like you're looking at them through frosted glass... Two pool rooms in Fort Smith actually clean their balls. It's SOOOOOO bad, that when I had Breakers (the name of the pool room I had), I had several tournaments there, and invariably there would be a few of the players that were bitching because the balls were too "slick" and were sliding all over the table. Clean Aramith Pros on 760 Simonis... They had just never played on anything clean! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

On the thead... really it doesn't matter WHY this happens to most players. Just knowing that it happens comes in handy, whether the "why" is understood or not. Personally, I just like knowing the WHY. Sometimes, however, my head is WAY to full of questions and answers... really hurts my game at times. I wish I had the type of pool personality where someone could just tell me "shoot it like this, it works" and I'd never question, just fire it in, but alas, I'm a billiards technogeek at times... I have to say, "OK, now tell me WHY this works!" Being like that can really hold you back sometimes. Imagine getting down on a shot and instead of just shooting the shot, thinking "OK, if I hit this 2 tips down, 3 speed, I should be able to gear this ball 6 inches forward of the tangent line, get position on ball X, etc, etc, etc,..." Sometimes it's hard to put all the tech stuff out of your head and just shoot pool... especially if you teach. It's tricky to transfer over from teacher to player. They are definitely two different modes of operation.

Later,
Bob

stickman
07-21-2005, 08:36 AM
I'm not exactly into the technical whys things occur, but I still know what you're saying. I still sometimes let my brain interfer with my just shooting.
Now that I think about it, the room owner wasn't thinking clearly. He basically got the tables and balls cleaned for free, considering that he got his money back in my table time.

Bob_Jewett
07-21-2005, 10:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> ... I don't understand why this shot works--but it does, and it comes in handy. Note that it isn't an ordinary tangent-line carom shot; the object ball misses the pocket if it travels parallel to the tangent line.... <hr /></blockquote>
This shot has been discussed many times over in RSB and has appeared at least a couple of times in BD. I think it's also in Byrne's "Advanced" book.

Sadly, most of the answers given so far are wrong.

When two balls collide, the kiss line is the very predictable tangent line, where the incoming ball exits at 90 degrees to the path of the struck ball. This is a very simple consequence of conservation of energy and momentum, and the balls are perfect enough that the 90-degree rule holds up well enough for nearly all situations.

When three balls are mutually touching simultaneously, something very, very different happens. The simple 90-degree rule no longer applies because of the third ball. To find the exit angle, you need to look at the details of what happens while the balls are together -- that is, the first ball starts pushing on the second ball which is pushed into the third ball and they all compress up to a point and then they decompress. The details of that tell you the final paths of the three balls.

Draw is not required on the cue ball. Wade Crane pointed this out a long time ago in a column with reference to the double spot shot at one pocket. (Two balls are spotted on the foot spot, the cue ball is behind the line, make the head ball go directly into your pocket.) This shot can be played with follow on the cue ball. It can be played with the cue ball starting on the wrong side of the table.

The shot works better with draw on the cue ball, because the transferred follow on the front ball makes it go forward more, but it's not required.

There is a system called the "ten times fuller" system for aiming frozen-pair shots. This lets you figure out how to make the front ball of a frozen pair go forward along any angle you want. If you happen to have the February 1996 issue of Billiards Digest, it's explained there with diagrams. It's also been explained and discussed a couple of times in the newsgroup rec.sport.billiard -- search for the PHRASE "ten times fuller" at http://groups-beta.google.com/advanced_search

The shot has essentially nothing to do with contact-induced throw. Draw is not required, and the shot can be made with follow. The balls must be frozen or within a thousandth of an inch or so.

Leviathan
07-21-2005, 10:23 AM
Thanks, all: very helpful.--AS

Cane
07-21-2005, 10:35 AM
Bob, I'll digress but only to a certain point. I set up the shot at one diamond from the long rail, 6 diamonds from the pocket, with the tangent line going to about a half a diamond. I could make the shot nearly every time with low, high, center ball, or whatever, it was just a matter of proper speed.

Now, I set up the shot a little different. I set it out 1 1/2 diamonds from the long rail, 6 diamonds from the pocket, tangent line going straight down table to 1 1/2 diamonds. Now we have a much more severe angle, right.

This shot, I could make easily using 2 tips of low spin on the CB at stroke speed, however, with center ball or follow, I could only get the OB to move off of the tangent line about 3/4 of a diamond... I tried slower than stroke speed, faster than stroke speed, NEARLY the same results. With a finesse speed stroke, I could get the ball to move quite a lot forward of the normal tangent line, but not enough to get online with the pocket and still carry enough speed to make it 6 daimonds down table. This method would, however, work GREAT on shots of less than a half table in length. I still contend that this is happening because of the increased dwell time.

So, Yes, I agree that this shot can be made with other than low spin if the angle isn't very severe, as was depicted in the original RSB table, however, I still believe that the only way to make it with a severe angle is to play the CB low spin and use the gear effect to make the ball.

So, where was I wrong? Do you not agree that the "trapped" ball will pick up more spin than an unfrozen ball? Or do you disagree with my statement that the dwell time is extended?

Regardless, I'm going to try it every way I can this afternoon and tonight on the table. There you go getting more s#!t in my head again! LOL Guess that's just the plague of the curious, isn't it!

Going now to read the thread on "ten times fuller".

Later,
Bob

Bob_Jewett
07-21-2005, 11:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr>... however, I still believe that the only way to make it with a severe angle is to play the CB low spin and use the gear effect to make the ball.
... <hr /></blockquote>
The double spot shot can be made without draw on the cue ball. You have to hit fuller and harder, probably.

Spin on the cue ball is unlikely to affect how long the balls are together, and even if it did, contact time is probably not the issue, just as it is not the issue in getting spin on the cue ball with the tip.

Leviathan
07-21-2005, 11:09 AM
Damn, Cane, it must be great having your own table! You get to drive yourself nuts with this kind of stuff! AS /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

stickman
07-21-2005, 11:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Damn, Cane, it must be great having your own table! <hr /></blockquote>
Yeh, Me too! That's one of the first things I'm going to fix, when I get the money. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cane
07-21-2005, 11:21 AM
Bob, The double spot shot... OK, I can get head ball travelling towards the pocket on a perfect line, but when shooting it, I got a double kiss almost every time. The back ball was coming up to the same side and kissing the lead ball on it's way to the pocket. How do I cure that. I tried, taking both more shallow and more steep angles adjusting the hit on the head ball, but still got the double kiss. Is it a speed issue, or is it something else?

On the cling issue. I probably should have made myself more clear. I do not think that spin on the cue ball causes the extended dwell time, I just feel that the spin can be used because the dwell time is there. I feel like, and I have no proof of this, just my opinion, that the mass of the two balls together is like having a single ball sittig there that's twice the mass of the cue ball. It takes "longer" (of course we're talking about an infinitesimal amount of time) to put the greater mass in motion than it does to put one ball in motion. That's where I feel like the extended dwell time allows time for a very small amount of spin to transfer to the first ball.

Leviathan... yeah, having a table downstairs is both a blessing and a curse! I do my drills and practice routines 3 times a day, and the rest of the time... hell, it seems like I'm trying something I read on either here or AzB! Drives ya nuts!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Later,
Bob

Bob_Jewett
07-21-2005, 11:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> Bob, The double spot shot... OK, I can get head ball travelling towards the pocket on a perfect line, but when shooting it, I got a double kiss almost every time. The back ball was coming up to the same side and kissing the lead ball on it's way to the pocket. How do I cure that... <hr /></blockquote>
Some tables tend to kiss. Make sure that the balls are spotted perfectly straight. If you have a choice, point the pair a little away from your pocket.

Dirty balls and sticky rails will make the kiss more likely. Using draw on the cue ball allows a thinner hit on the front ball and makes the kiss less likely. If the balls are spotted straight with sticky equipment, set up for a thinner hit on the front ball. You will miss the kiss and the pocket, but the back ball will bank two short cushions to your pocket.

If you want to reduce throw temporarily, wet the contact point between the two object balls.

Billy_Bob
07-21-2005, 11:55 AM
There are plenty of shots like this where you can "make them work". Also rotating the two balls 90 deg can be made to work (not exactly dead on into the pocket).

Get the book "99 critical shots" and practice these shots. All of a sudden you will begin to see shots you would not have thought existed before! The only thing is to be sure to call some of the cluster shots loudly and clearly (which ball is going into which pocket), because they will try to say it was a luck shot after you shoot some of these. It is not luck...

Cane
07-21-2005, 12:27 PM
Bob,

Thanks, I'll start by wetting the spot until I get the shot down that way, them move on to slightly misaligning them, then to just trying them dry... yeah, I might want to clean my set of balls, also. I shoot anywhere from 200 to 1000 shots a day on that table and I brush the table a couple of times a day, but I haven't cleaned the balls in... well, I'm embarrassed to say, but I have a ball polisher in the closet next to the table that has a little dust on it!

Thank you for the information and the shot. I'm trying to learn how to proficiently play one pocket, and since I can't get anyone around here to play it, I just play against myself... as Oz put it, Player A and Player B... I'm both of them. Hey, I always win that way! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif There are some shots that come up for one pocket only that you just wouldn't use in most pocket billiards games. I've learned a few of them from Caedos (Oz) and Banky, but I have a lot more to learn... this is one that I'll work on and put in my small arsenal of 1 hole shots.

Thanks,
Bob

Cane
07-21-2005, 02:46 PM
OK cleaned and polished my Aramith Super Pro balls and the double spot shot works... sometimes! LOL I'll practice it more, but I'm about 20% on it now. The dirty balls, which were much cleaner than any you'll find in most bars or pool rooms these days, were just sticky enough to throw the back ball into the path of the spot ball. After cleaning, the spot ball was well on it's way to the pocket, the back ball has a much more shallow rebound off of the cushion and the shot started going towards the pocket.

Later,
Bob

Fred Agnir
07-22-2005, 05:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> START(
%Ab7U7%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%Hb8V9%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pk3N9%QB2X3%RA6Z9%U d2T7%Vj8O3
%WD3[2%Xa7U8%]D7Y0%^a8U7%eB4b6
)END

Wei table: http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

I don't understand why this shot works--but it does, and it comes in handy. Note that it isn't an ordinary tangent-line carom shot; the object ball misses the pocket if it travels parallel to the tangent line. <hr /></blockquote>Have you tried it without draw as well? If it works only with draw, then I'd say it's spin transfer.

If it works with or without, I'll go with elastic collision dynamics. That would be the same reason the top ball goes forward on this shot, even without using draw.

START(
%AN8O5%HM5O5%Pi9Q9%UQ2O8%Vh7Q3%WI6J2%XN7N7%eB4a8

)END


Fred

Fred Agnir
07-22-2005, 06:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> To a degree, but the lowCB inducing follow on the ob in a running energy, whereas the draw induced ob will not retain enough energy for any applicable results over distance. <hr /></blockquote>If the combination had two balls or more behind it rather than just one, you can retain enough to draw the object ball.

Fred