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mworkman
07-29-2005, 08:11 AM
If two balls are frozen, can you get more throw by also using english? Let's say 2 balls are frozen and I want to throw the 2nd ball to the left. I hit on the right side with the softer hit creating more throw. If I also add left english, will the gear effect create more throw? Or will hitting it on the side create all the throw needed? I wanted to use the RSB table but it didn't work..

Billy_Bob
07-29-2005, 09:15 AM
I would suggest getting the book 99 critical shots. There are some really interesting cluster and frozen shots in that book. Really need to see the diagrams to set these up and then practice them.

mworkman
07-29-2005, 10:45 AM
Hi, I do have that book but I don't recall it saying whether english would increase the effect of throw or if it is just the contact point on the lead ball.

ras314
07-29-2005, 11:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> If two balls are frozen, can you get more throw by also using english? Let's say 2 balls are frozen and I want to throw the 2nd ball to the left. I hit on the right side with the softer hit creating more throw. If I also add left english, will the gear effect create more throw? Or will hitting it on the side create all the throw needed? I wanted to use the RSB table but it didn't work.. <hr /></blockquote>
Yes. Robert Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards discusses it a little, though not with frozen balls IIRC. I find that english with the cue jacked up like a massey shot can really get some "throw" on frozen balls. May be sort of a push shot and doesn't work as well for me with the predator 314 shaft.

SPetty
07-29-2005, 11:17 AM
It's my understanding that to throw the second ball even farther left than simply hitting on the right side of the first ball, you'd want to put right english on the cue ball, not left.

ras314
07-29-2005, 11:21 AM
Oops. You are right again.

Always did have trouble telling my right from my left. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Fred Agnir
07-29-2005, 11:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> It's my understanding that to throw the second ball even farther left than simply hitting on the right side of the first ball, you'd want to put right english on the cue ball, not left. <hr /></blockquote>
You sure?

Fred

mworkman
07-29-2005, 11:39 AM
I think you are backwards. You want right english on the first ball to throw the 2nd ball left. Therefore, to put right english on the first ball you need to use left english..

Scott Lee
07-29-2005, 12:16 PM
mworkman...There is no significant increase in the amount of throw, if you are shooting at two frozen OB's. The generally accepted formula for a shot like this is 1" of throw per 1' distance to the pocket. If you sight a straight line through the frozen balls to a rail, you can measure the distance to the pocket in inches, versus the distance to the pocket in feet, from the ball position on the table. Sidespin has VERY little effect on the throw distance, UNLESS the two frozen balls are the CB and OB. Then english can increase the amount of throw. One thing to remember, the harder you shoot, the less throw effect there will be. Also, to get the fullest effect, you must hit pretty full on the first frozen ball. A thin hit reduces the possible throw.

Scott Lee

dr_dave
07-29-2005, 12:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> mworkman...There is no significant increase in the amount of throw, if you are shooting at two frozen OB's. The generally accepted formula for a shot like this is 1" of throw per 1' distance to the pocket. If you sight a straight line through the frozen balls to a rail, you can measure the distance to the pocket in inches, versus the distance to the pocket in feet, from the ball position on the table. Sidespin has VERY little effect on the throw distance, UNLESS the two frozen balls are the CB and OB. Then english can increase the amount of throw. One thing to remember, the harder you shoot, the less throw effect there will be. Also, to get the fullest effect, you must hit pretty full on the first frozen ball. A thin hit reduces the possible throw.<hr /></blockquote>
Excellent summary! If mworkman (or others) want to see a demonstration, NV 7.6 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV7-6.htm) shows an example.

Now, if you also want to know where the cue ball will go (for a centerball hit), see my other posting on this topic (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=201944&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=). English will alter the cue ball's path in the opposite direction from the object ball throw.

Regards,
Dave

Jal
07-29-2005, 02:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> If two balls are frozen, can you get more throw by also using english? Let's say 2 balls are frozen and I want to throw the 2nd ball to the left. I hit on the right side with the softer hit creating more throw. If I also add left english, will the gear effect create more throw? Or will hitting it on the side create all the throw needed? I wanted to use the RSB table but it didn't work.. <hr /></blockquote>

I think you can get more throw by using some left english (which is what Fred Agnir is alluding to, I believe). But you have to be careful not to apply too much english.

The important variable is the relative speed of the cueball's surface across the object ball - the greater the speed, the less the friction. So in your example, some left will help reduce the relative surface speed and should increase the throw. Right english should actually reduce the throw for the same reasons.

As Ras314 suggested, jacking up should also amplify it. On one of his videos, Willie Jopling demonstrates a shot where he causes two frozen object balls to throw much more than normal. It appears that he does this by jumping the cueball a bit thus having it strike downward on the first object ball, creating a masse effect on the second ball. So here it's the ball/cloth friction along with the ball/ball friction that's doing the job.

I wouldn't rely on any of this though if your final shot at the U.S. Open depends on it. Just some thoughts.

Jim

mworkman
07-29-2005, 03:24 PM
Hi thanks for all the responces. Scott, you said that it takes a pretty full hit to get the max. effect. I would think a half-ball hit would be better then 3/4 wouldn't you? Especially if you are coming from down the line of the shot.

SPetty
07-29-2005, 06:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> It's my understanding that to throw the second ball even farther left than simply hitting on the right side of the first ball, you'd want to put right english on the cue ball, not left. <hr /></blockquote>You sure?<hr /></blockquote>Y'know, I didn't answer the first time I saw this thread because I wasn't sure and didn't want to look like a fool, but I was sure what I thought... So then I went and posted anyway and surely did end up looking like a fool... /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

So, I just got back from the table and I guess I was way wrong. From straight on, hitting the right side of the frozen pair sends the second ball to the left, as expected. Ditto the other way.

However, adding english to either side changed it opposite than I thought, as you're alluding to. It threw farther left by putting left english on the cue ball when hitting the right side of the first ball.

Another however - I always thought that you could throw the second ball by hitting the pair head-on, but by putting english on the cue ball. That's what fueled my wrong thinking in the first place, I think. But, I couldn't make that happen like I thought it happened either. I couldn't get any appreciable throw of the second ball to the left by hitting the pair head on with right english on the cue ball, or vice versa. Is that supposed to work?

Where do I get these ideas??!? And why can't I keep them to myself??!? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Fred Agnir
07-29-2005, 06:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> It's my understanding Another however - I always thought that you could throw the second ball by hitting the pair head-on, but by putting english on the cue ball. That's what fueled my wrong thinking in the first place, I think. But, I couldn't make that happen like I thought it happened either. I couldn't get any appreciable throw of the second ball to the left by hitting the pair head on with right english on the cue ball, or vice versa. Is that supposed to work?

Where do I get these ideas??!? And why can't I keep them to myself??!? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
<hr /></blockquote> You get these ideas from bogus misleading books and videos, and further fueled internet rumor mongering.

When balls are clean and/or hot, it's tough to see any spin transfer and head on throw, frozen combo or not. I assume your equipment is very clean.

There's only a small percentage of spin transfered to the first ball from the cueball (but enough to make magic happen). The second ball would get the same percentage of that percentage, so in the end, the spin transfer could be and should be supremely small (depending how much dirt is on the balls).

Let's ask Dr. Dave to video tape this. Obviously he enjoys it.

Fred

Scott Lee
07-29-2005, 06:51 PM
mworkman...There would be no difference in throw, between a half-ball hit and a 3/4 ball hit. Less than 1/4 ball hit, and the throw effect is less than optimal.

Scott Lee

Bob_Jewett
07-29-2005, 08:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr>... I would think a half-ball hit would be better then 3/4 wouldn't you? Especially if you are coming from down the line of the shot. <hr /></blockquote>
A measurement of throw versus fullness of hit on a frozen combination is available on-line in the misc files area of www.sfbilliards.com (http://www.sfbilliards.com) (item 23). It also shows how throw changes or doesn't change with speed. That info is also available in Capelle's book, "Play Your Best Pool."

But the best way to answer this whole series of questions, now that you have a bunch of leads, is to go to your own table with your own balls and shoot shots. It's pointless to be full of all of this knowledge unless you transfer it to your arm.

ras314
07-29-2005, 08:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> I think you are backwards. You want right english on the first ball to throw the 2nd ball left. Therefore, to put right english on the first ball you need to use left english.. <hr /></blockquote>
I thought the question concerned a frozen cb and ob, should have read more carefully. Sorry for adding to any confusion.

Jal
07-29-2005, 10:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> ...
I thought the question concerned a frozen cb and ob,...<hr /></blockquote>

You're not the only one. So I was surprised when SPetty reported that left english, which I thought would cause more throw for the frozen cb/ob, actually threw the frozen ob/ob more. Depending on the cut angle he used on the first ball, this could be an application of Dr. Dave's new wrinkle in throw analysis: the left english on the cueball helps prevent the first object ball from developing premature roll across the second object ball, at least as compared to right english which should aid it.

Or then again, maybe both balls should simply jump straight into the air. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Jim

mworkman
07-30-2005, 06:20 AM
Thanks Bob. Looks like 28 Degrees with a soft hit will give me max results. Why spend all that time practicing, if I can just look it up? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Just kidding.. I definately need to get back to the table. It just seems harder to get motivated in the summer. I do think all this technical information is usefull tho' and it saves you time on the learning curve. Thanks everyone!

mworkman
07-30-2005, 06:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> I think you are backwards. You want right english on the first ball to throw the 2nd ball left. Therefore, to put right english on the first ball you need to use left english.. <hr /></blockquote>
I thought the question concerned a frozen cb and ob, should have read more carefully. Sorry for adding to any confusion.

<hr /></blockquote>

I didn't word my original post very well sorry. I should of said 2 frozen object balls to make it more clear.

dr_dave
07-30-2005, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>There's only a small percentage of spin transfered to the first ball from the cueball (but enough to make magic happen). The second ball would get the same percentage of that percentage, so in the end, the spin transfer could be and should be supremely small (depending how much dirt is on the balls).

Let's ask Dr. Dave to video tape this. Obviously he enjoys it.<hr /></blockquote>
Done already. See HSV A.85-A.87 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html). The two balls in the video are frozen OBs. The CB is outside of the frame to the left. I did this so more of the transferred spin and throw could be seen. Be sure to read the titles so you will know how the CB was struck. All of the shots were hit squarely (no cut angle), for maximum effect.

Regards,
Dave

mworkman
07-30-2005, 11:10 AM
Dave, that's a cool video. It definately shows some transfer to the second ball. So, I do believe you can get a little extra throw when using english and hitting it on the side then just hitting it on the side without english. But, like Scott said, it doesn't amount to much.

dr_dave
07-31-2005, 10:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> Dave, that's a cool video. It definately shows some transfer to the second ball. So, I do believe you can get a little extra throw when using english and hitting it on the side then just hitting it on the side without english. But, like Scott said, it doesn't amount to much.<hr /></blockquote>
I agree with Scott that if there were an added effect, it would be extremely small. However, be aware that collision-induced throw (CIT) and spin-induced throw (SIT) are not additive. In fact, they come from the same source: friction between the balls due to relative motion (from cut angle or spin). Furthermore, more relative motion does not mean more friction; in fact, more usually means less. My analysis, plots, and conclusions presented in another thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=200743&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) summarize all of the relevant principles and effects. Check it out when you get a chance. Also, there a many useful links to other relevant threads under "throw" and "English" in the threads summary area of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html).

Regards,
Dave

cushioncrawler
10-23-2005, 07:09 AM
If the qball iz to be rolling, then left hand sidespin on the Qball will increase Ball 2'z throw. Right hand spin on the Qball would be poizon.
But, my tests show that pure stun iz allwayz best for maximizing throw in this sort of frozen 2 ball pozzy.
If the Qball iz in hand (ie after a foul), place it on the same line az the 2 frozen ballz, 4 ballz clear of Ball 1 (the nearest ball), aim for a quarter ball contact on Ball 1 (ie much thinner than a half ball contact), hit the Qball dead center (ie with pure stun, ie zero sidespin &amp; zero topspin), hit semi-hard (not too hard, &amp; not too soft). This givez Ball 2 the widest throw angle.
Hit too hard, &amp; the larger flatspot between Ball 1 &amp; 2 will take say 0.5 degreez off the throw. Hit too soft, &amp; the flatspot between the Qball &amp; Ball 1 will not scuff up enough to give some super-friktion (yes, friktion varyz), hence u might looz say 1 degree of throw on Ball 2. Uzing lots of left hand sidespin on the Qball rezults in some of the nice scuffed surface exiting the impakt zone (between the Qball &amp; Ball 1), hence u might looz say 0.5 degreez of throw on Ball 2. Uzing topspin (rolling) or bottom spin on the Qball robz some of the available friktion between the Qball &amp; Ball 1 (ie vertical throw iz wasted throw).