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Steve Lipsky
08-08-2005, 09:25 PM
Hi everyone. In my poolroom, virtually every table plays about a diamond short, maybe more. I've never seen anything like it; there are scratches that do not exist on any other table I've played on.

These are all fairly new Gold Crown IVs (about a year old). Before they bought these tables, their previous tables played exactly the same way... This would lead me to believe that the problem might be the room's environment, but I really don't know. It is an "upstairs" room, if that matters. But the room is always kept very comfortable... no excess humidity, etc.

Can anyone suggest any possible solutions? I love the room but the tables are sometimes frustrating.

Thanks,
Steve

Fran Crimi
08-08-2005, 10:26 PM
Steve,

I was over at the Sang Lee Memorial 3C tournament this weekend and they had a promotional table set up in the back just for the trick shot exhibition. Unfortunately, there wasn't an electrical outlet back there to heat the table and the players were having a hard time with everything going short. The other tables that were heated all played true, so I think it's a dampness issue.

Maybe you could come up with a way to reduce the humidity in the room.

Fran

demonrho
08-09-2005, 12:00 AM
Same problem in our room in Los Angeles - it's the humidity.

Steve Lipsky
08-09-2005, 09:17 AM
Hi Fran. Long time! Hope all is well...

If there is too much humidity in the room, how do you address it? And, more importantly, is it a situation where these rails are already ruined, and even if the humidity WAS addressed, the rails would have to be replaced anyway?

Thanks!

- Steve

Steve Lipsky
08-09-2005, 09:20 AM
Hi Demon. Which room do you play out of?

Fran Crimi
08-09-2005, 09:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Hi Fran. Long time! Hope all is well...

If there is too much humidity in the room, how do you address it? And, more importantly, is it a situation where these rails are already ruined, and even if the humidity WAS addressed, the rails would have to be replaced anyway?

Thanks!

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Steve, long time is right! Things are well here...hope the same for you.

I'm no expert by any means but I think it would make sense to try to dry out the room first before changing the rails. You may not have to change them.

Now that I think about it, over at Corner the tables play short in extreme humidity, which I don't think you can do anything about, but they play fine the rest of the time.

Back when they built the room, they sprayed some kind of foam on the ceiling. I think they said it was cellulite (?). Maybe that helps. I don't know. The other thing you can do is talk to a/c and heating experts. They may be able to offer some solutions through the heating and a/c units.

Also, make sure the cleaning people don't leave the doors and windows open when they clean or throw out the trash. I've seen that a lot and the room gets damp right away and it lasts all day. I think that open doors or windows are the worst culprit of all. Even if the door doesn't lead directly to the outside, it's still letting moisture into the room.

Fran

Steve Lipsky
08-09-2005, 10:05 AM
Excellent, Fran! Thanks for the suggestions... I will offer them to the managers.

Just for giggles, here are two shots on which you may scratch (as the tables are now):

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

START(
%IH6J4%PV6O4%WD0O8%XH3K1%YK7Z6%ZC2P5%[Z7D6%\L0[2%]I7K6%^U7O0

)END



START(
%Ib5E2%Pd1M2%Ul1Z9%Vs2R6%W[9Z6%Xa8C5%Yc0G0%Zd0L5%[[8D2%\k0[1
%]b2D1%^b3D4%_r8Q9%`g5G5%ac0F0
)END


It is funny, as there are many players in the room who have played there fairly exclusively their whole lives. They don't understand why I am having multiple heart failures every day when I see these things. To them, this is how pool tables play. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Anyway, I'm not knocking the room... they take good care of their players and the tables. It's just nobody seems to know how to solve this problem. I am happy that I can now offer some solutions. Thanks!

- Steve

SpiderMan
08-09-2005, 10:36 AM
Steve,

In reading the responses to date, I'm wondering if your "playing short" question may have been interpreted as "playing slow".

I'm assuming you meant that the standard three-rail "calibration kick" strikes the long rail a diamond above the corner pocket. Does a "slow" surface (as related to humidity) typically correllate with "coming up short", or is "shortness" more a function of the rails?

I've played on some bar tables (slow ones) that actually ran long, but that may not relate directly to your situation as the bar-table cueballs also vary greatly.

SpiderMan

Rich R.
08-09-2005, 10:48 AM
If the problem is the humidity, installing a dehumidifier should help. Although you can find home units in most hardware stores, I'm sure a commercial unit is available. Assuming it is a fairly large space, the unit would have to be large and costly. I hope the management understands.

Fran Crimi
08-09-2005, 04:47 PM
LOL! Scratching on those shots would drive me crazy! No wonder why you're getting heart failure. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Ask Lenny F. what he thinks about playing in humidity. I've seen him put his cue away and call it a day on those days. LOL

I just thought of another possibility that would have the same effect on the rails as humidity: if the rail pitch on the tables is slightly off. That could be the fault of the installers or a defect in the rail or rubber design. A lot of mfgrs now outsourse the rubber work to other countries. If I were you, I'd contact the table mfgr and ask for the rail pitch for that make and model and find out exactly how to measure it. Then make sure the rail pitches on the tables are perfect. Just the slightest variation could make them play short.

Fran

Barbara
08-09-2005, 05:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
I just thought of another possibility that would have the same effect on the rails as humidity: if the rail pitch on the tables is slightly off. That could be the fault of the installers or a defect in the rail or rubber design. A lot of mfgrs now outsourse the rubber work to other countries. If I were you, I'd contact the table mfgr and ask for the rail pitch for that make and model and find out exactly how to measure it. Then make sure the rail pitches on the tables are perfect. Just the slightest variation could make them play short.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Thank you Fran!

Pulling the cloth too tight over the nose of the rail will definitely make you go mental when trying to do one of your more normal kicks.

Barbara

Vagabond
08-09-2005, 05:20 PM
Many years ago there was an article written by Dany D Liberto in Biliiards digest on similar subject under the title `Slippery when wet`.One may try it thru archives.

Eric.
08-10-2005, 08:27 AM
I'm guessing you're talking about the ABC? I'm wondering if it is more aof a seasonal thing. Like others have mentioned, the humidity plays a big part in it and summer in NY definitely has a bit of humidity /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Do you notice the same play in the winter/fall/spring? How did the ABC east play in comparison? The ABC being in the basement may have had less changes due to the weather being that it was "underground".


Eric

Keith Talent
08-10-2005, 09:57 AM
I'm also assuming you meant ABC. I stopped in last night for the first time in months and though I didn't try the shots you diagrammed, I did notice it was easy to overshorten cross-side banks.

Miss playing there since I got priced out of Manhattan, no matter what! Anyway, with a premature departure in mind, I saw this shot come up and thought it deserved to be Efrened. At least, I've got him on tape from DCC 2004 making this shot, in a 1.000 match vs. Jimmy Wetch, I think ... and when it fell perfectly off those rails, I unscrewed right there, lol.

START(
%HQ7S6%Iq9S0%Pg9V9%UC8[5%VQ2S7%WS4S6%Xf8V6%YT7D7%ZR1S2%[_6Z5
%\U4C3%]j5I3%^`0[2
)END

Voodoo Daddy
08-13-2005, 07:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Hi everyone. In my poolroom, virtually every table plays about a diamond short, maybe more. I've never seen anything like it; there are scratches that do not exist on any other table I've played on.

These are all fairly new Gold Crown IVs (about a year old). Before they bought these tables, their previous tables played exactly the same way... This would lead me to believe that the problem might be the room's environment, but I really don't know. It is an "upstairs" room, if that matters. But the room is always kept very comfortable... no excess humidity, etc.

Can anyone suggest any possible solutions? I love the room but the tables are sometimes frustrating.

Thanks,
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve...come on down to the steambath and see how short you can really come, HAHAHAHA. We in Florida try to keep the rooms as cool as possible but with every opening of the front door or when the smoke-eaters are turned on the tables become a bed of shortness. The adjustment isnt simple but here it is. All common sense is tossed out the window and use extreme english to a minimum. Short rail banks reduce 25% of your contact point, a lil more on long rail banks. I dunno if that will help but I been playing short-side pool all my life!!! Good luck.....

Jay M
08-13-2005, 07:11 PM
My bet would be the carpet is too tight on the rails. Most quality pool halls do their own recovering and the people doing the work will always tend to make the same mistakes every time.

Humidity is the second choice and you can definitely lengthen the shots by adding dehumidifiers. Here's a link with some pricing.

http://www.iaqsource.com/index.php?module=products&amp;prod_cat=40&amp;OVRAW=dehumi difier%20commercial&amp;OVKEY=commercial%20dehumidifie r&amp;OVMTC=standard

Steve Lipsky
08-13-2005, 07:35 PM
Thank you everyone for the valuable suggestions. It's been very helpful!

- Steve