PDA

View Full Version : Several reasons why not to support the IPT



Harold Acosta
08-19-2005, 11:20 PM
Yesterday I commented against the IPT. Someone said I was crazy. All WPA member federations should have gotten this letter by now. I am sharing this with all of you with proper authorization. Anyone is welcomed to comment.

Letter from Ian Anderson - President of the World
Pool-Billiard Asociation (WPA):

19 August, 2005

To All Players and Federations

I write to you as both a former professional billiard player and as the President of the World Pool-Billiard Association. It has taken me some time to compile this letter, but I felt it was important that it be written, given the recent announcements within our sport. All I ask is for you to take a few minutes to read it, and give consideration to what is being said.

You have all most likely seen or heard about the latest news announcing new events which are being organized by a new promotions organization in the USA, the International Pool Tour, or more commonly referred to as IPT. No doubt these new events will all sound great to you as pool players, but I do ask you to sit back and give very serious consideration to what this may all mean to both yourself and the long term future of the sport.

Like many others before, IPT sees itself as its own authority and does not wish to be under the scrutiny of any legitimate body, such as the WPA. This decision of theirs is cause for concern in itself. Why wouldn’t they want legitimate sanctioning by the world’s only legitimately recognized international organization for pool? This is a good question to consider. Because at the end of the day the sanctioning doesn’t cost them anything; it is for free because the sanctioning fee comes from the added prize fund.

When you consider the amounts of money being bandied about, the amount that the WPA would receive may seem like an awful lot of money for a pool organization to get, but the truth is that all of the money goes back into the sport. The main bulk of this money would most likely be put back in the form of one or two extra tournaments each year, or used to boost up prize money to already existing events.

With reference to a Questions and Answers release from IPT: First of all let’s take a look IPT’s first event. It’s being hailed as the “World 8-Ball Championship”. That’s great isn’t it? Here is an event being played between two Americans and that is supposed to constitute a legitimate world championship, at least according to IPT ! And who’s contesting this “world championship” event – two players whose better playing days are probably sometime behind them. I have no objection to a challenge type match between these two contestants, but really, to try and claim it as a world championship event is insulting.

So where does that leave the WPA World 8-Ball Championship in comparison to the IPT event? Who is the real champion? Well according to IPT it sounds like it must be the winner of their event. “As of right now, in my opinion, there is no world 8 Ball champion.” I’m pleased in this quote it was clarified as being the writer’s opinion, because I’m sure that is not how everyone else feels. Who do you consider should be recognized as the true world champion? Should it be the winner of a challenge match whose player selection was made according to the ‘old pals act’, or Efren Reyes who won the WPA World 8-Ball Championship last year, in a contest that featured 63 other leading players from more than twenty countries worldwide. They were players who had to qualify to earn a start in the event.

In all articles associated with IPT, the subject of “huge” money is inevitably raised. Their proposed tour certainly sounds exciting, and is indeed a worthy amount of money being talked about. But comments like “I am not doing this to make money.” have to be queried. It may be true that Mr. Trudeau doesn’t have to make money on this venture, but there is no doubt in most minds that this really is his objective – to make money. And nobody can begrudge him of that, if he is willing to invest in the sport then he is entitled to earn a return.

But surely he is doing it to make money; he hopes to make money by selling the matches to pay-per-view television. Anyone who believes he is simply doing it because he can afford to and he wants to put all this money into the pockets of pool players he doesn’t even know, those people must still believe in Santa Claus. You will no doubt have seen the $199 entry fee per tournament and the $899 membership fee.

1.The IPT also differentiates itself from all other tours with the fact that our events will be produced for television to a higher level of professionalism than any other event. The production quality of the events will be superlative. No one can compete with the production values that the IPT events will have. The amount of television coverage that IPT events will have will dwarf any other tour's television coverage exposure.

The paragraph above is certainly some claim. The WPA World 9-Ball Championship goes out to 80 countries with an audience of some 500,000,000 people. Imagine how many people must be watching IPT’s event if it is going to dwarf everything else !

If you bother to read the Q & A article in full, you will notice a number of incorrect statements and claims; far too many to address in this letter.

In simple terms, what I am trying to say to you is this: We have all seen these sorts of ideas and promises before. Mostly they don’t get any further than just being an idea, usually because they are unable to raise the necessary funds to develop their ideas, but in fairness to IPT it doesn’t appear as though money will be the problem.

The main concern is that if this project is allowed to develop under IPT’s structure, the future of the sport as we know it today could be in jeopardy. What assurances are there from IPT as to how long they intend to stay in the business? Sure, we will hear it is long term, but what assurances are they giving other than some verbal promises. You surely wouldn’t expect to hear them say, “Well, we’ll just try it and see what happens. If it doesn’t work and we can’t earn any money, then we’re outta here”. But this may well be closer to the truth.

Their reasons for not wanting to sanction with the WPA is a great concern for us. If you were really intent on developing the sport properly, why wouldn’t you want the world governing body to sanction the event, which would make their events legitimate – especially when they want to call it a “world championship”.

Is their reason because they wouldn’t want the WPA to receive so much money? Money that we have said we would be putting back into the sport by one way or another. Some of the money could be used to help administer the sport more professionally. As you would all know, the work done by the WPA is done on an honorary basis and this seldom can be as good when compared to being able to pay for your help.

The WPA was set up in 1987 in an effort to make the games of pocket billiards have a more international flavor. Pool was happening within the USA, Japan and some countries of Europe. With the forming of the WPA, a true world championship was able to be held, bringing together players from all different countries to compete.

Just three continents were the foundation members of the WPA, and today we have six, every continent is a member.

From these humble beginnings, with only a few tournaments for players and where the members were obligated to stage the world championships for men and women we have now reached a stage where our calendar is almost full every year. This has only been achieved because of the existence of the WPA, by bringing everyone together. All our memberships work closely together to co-ordinate events to prevent clashes and to give all players a better chance of playing in as many events as possible.

Unlike organizations such as IPT, the WPA has a number of responsibilities far beyond what most players would realize. Importantly, we are not here for the short haul, but rather the long. We are committed to the long term development of the sport; not just pack up tomorrow if something happens that we don’t like. We are a non-profit organization and whatever money we make, we are obligated to invest it back into the sport one way or another.

We have to invest in the future, to make sure that the sport keeps going and growing by developing the young, probably the most important investment we can make. We have to help with such other activities as Artistic and Disabled disciplines. We have to help develop and train referees and other official’s criteria so that when a competition takes place and we need officials, we will have competent people to do the job. We need to recognize and endorse player coaching programs.

We have to make and amend policies to maintain our Olympic recognition, something which I’m sure you would all be aware is important to us. Many a nation receives benefits as a result of WPA’s membership to the IOC. Fortunate players from these countries are already receiving great assistance from their governments and National Olympic Committees and this number is growing all the time. And for any of you that may not count this as being so important, just ask the thoughts of players who took part in the recent World Games.

So it’s all well and good for someone to come along now and tell everyone what they’re going to do, and that they don’t want to work with anyone because they are so great; but I ask what is IPT going to do for the future of our sport? What programs have they got planned that will allow the opportunity for a youngster to be trained so that when he reaches that ripe old age of sixteen, he can have the opportunity to win an Open World Championship? What programs have they got that will give players the opportunities to play in future World Games, and hopefully soon, Olympic Games? Indeed, where were they when the game was really struggling and we badly needed help? Funny, we didn’t hear from them, but now that the hard yards have been done, they want to come along and show everyone how it should be done.

As you all know and have experienced, we have a wonderful and long relationship with other promotion companies who are only too pleased to be associated with the WPA. They obviously can see the benefits of the relationship. I refer here to Matchroom, Matt Braun, Mr. Tu Sports, our friends in the UAE, IBC and more recently Barry Behrman. Their events are staged in conjunction with the international that our members such as APBU, BCA/UPA and EPBF put together.

Please don’t jeopardize what we have all worked so long and hard for, especially you the players. It is improving all the time. Prize money for the World 9-Ball event will be increased for next year and Matchroom is also considering an additional event for next year.

Before you make any decision, all I ask is for you to take clear consideration of the positives and the minuses in order for you to make correct judgment. There is an old saying about the grass always appearing greener on the other side of the hill, but seldom is once you reach it; perhaps this saying may be appropriate here.

There is no sound reason why IPT should snub the WPA. I believe it to be the case at present because of some bad advice they may have been given. Everything would be easier and more beneficial to all concerned for them to work with all of us. It would eliminate any possible disciplinary action on those who break rank. I promise you that if everyone sticks together and supports each other; insist that IPT work together with the WPA, the future will never have looked so bright. The most damaging thing anyone can do to any sport is to cause disharmony and disruption.

You people are powerful and hold the key for the future to our sport. Use it together; we have all worked too hard to get to where we are today. Let’s not risk losing all of this simply because someone who has a lot of money comes along and makes grand promises, and may be gone again as quickly as he came. Let’s encourage ITP to work together with us for everyone’s benefit.

In closing, I thank you for your time to read this letter, and I urge you most sincerely, that before anyone makes a hasty decision to turn to IPT, at least speak with your WPA representative body before doing so. Or if anyone would like to discuss this any further with me, then I am more than happy to be available to you, please make contact at an address below. The future has never looked so good.

With best wishes



IAN ANDERSON
WPA President

SloppyJoe
08-19-2005, 11:44 PM
With all due respect sir there are 7 continents. Alas most penguins don't play pool, but i hope the brave frozen scientists of Antartica have at least 1 pool table to help pass the time. If they don't, i suggest we all pitch in and send one down immediately with a beer and a shot !

theinel
08-20-2005, 01:08 AM
Harold,

I completely agree with you regarding the fact that the IPT/Kevin Trudeau should try to work with the WPA. Whether it has or hasn't I don't know. Kevin's checkered past is certainly cause for concern. The money the IPT is bringing to the table is substantial, and if real and sustained will do great things for pool, at least here in the US, but as you mentioned there are no guarantees and it could disappear as quickly as it came.

My question for you is slightly off topic but of great concern to many. The BCA trade organization is the North American WPA sanctioned body. Last year it sold it's league/national tournament program/ and entire player membership, with over 500k members (according to BCA publications), to a private, for profit business, which I'm sure was legally within their right to do but was handled so badly as to splinter that organization and decrease the attendance at this years national tournament by about a third.

I am not knocking the new BCA Pool League, or Mark Griffin, who put on an excellent event, but I want to know if the WPA, and the world pool community are all that you say then where were they during the sale of a major non-profit player organization to a private individual who can come or go at personal whim (for the record I don't think that Mark is going anywhere and this post is not meant to say anything bad about him)?

I have read many of your posts over the years and both like and respect you. I am not attacking you with this post but the sport of pool and billiards is littered with the acronyms of failed/extinct organizations. Pool, in it's many forms, is ancient and played world wide but hasn't yet reached Olympic status. How well is the WPA doing at promoting the sport? Very few professional pool players earn a living based on pool earnings. If the IPT succeeds can you work with them?

GeraldG
08-20-2005, 04:21 AM
I was sort of wondering when we would see something like this letter. It is all valid points. The point about how does this IPT thing qualify as a "World Championship" was already alluded to in here....


On another note...I thought Ian Anderson played flute for Jethro Tull? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BigT
08-20-2005, 04:44 AM
I don't see a problem with the IPT. I have never seen 8 ball on tv and I am looking forward to seeing it on tv. I also don't like the short 1 hour tv races they suck. I don't know if I like the slow cloth but it will be nice to see something different. The IPT can only help and pool needs that help. This may give a chance to see 14.1 on tv.

Fran Crimi
08-20-2005, 08:22 AM
Hi Harold,

In the other thread, you wrote that "I think we just have to wait and see." I think that's smart. I understand the WPA's concern but I think this letter makes them look more threatened than anything else. I think it would have been wiser for them to take a wait and see tact with this.

Just because initial negotiations between the WPA and IPT failed, it doesn't mean that the IPT couldn't come around in the future and support the WPA. I hope I'm wrong, but unfortunately, I think that this letter just about locked the door and threw away the key on any chance of that happening.

Fran

jjinfla
08-20-2005, 08:27 AM
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

This letter proves it. The IPT must be for real and the WPA is scared.

The WPA and all these other organizations have been screwing up the world of pool all these years and what do the pro players have to show for it? Zilch, nada, nothing.

The pro players wish they had it as good as the people running these so called "non-for profit" organizations.

Kevin Trudeau is in it for the money? Well I sure hope so. If not so then I would say he is nuts. So he gives his money to the pro pool players instead of Uncle Sam.

Well, anyway Mike Sigel and Lorrie John Jones will be laughing all the way to the bank. Hopefully some of the other pros will be joining them in making trips to the bank in the near future.

What I don't understand is why so many people who can't play at the pro level are so against the IPT.

In the end it will be the top players who will decide their own destiny. If it works they will be sitting pretty. If it fails, well, what have they lost? A few bucks. A small price to pay. And they would be no worse off than they are now. And no organization is going to ban the top players for joining the IPT now are they? No organization would be that stupid. Well, almost no organization.

Jake

ras314
08-20-2005, 10:32 AM
"What I don't understand is why so many people who can't play at the pro level are so against the IPT."

Maybe because we don't trust a con artist?

What happens if this guy manages to ruin existing pool organizations and then folds up his tent?

I have no monetary interest in pool, but I do enjoy occasionally stopping in a pool hall. And I refuse to help support a charlatan of KT's caliber. Suppose I might sing a different tune if I played well enough to get in line for all this easy money, but I hope not.

If this pie in the sky scheme lasts a year I will be plesantly suprised. Still think everybody better deal in cash with the IPT, and keep close watch on their wallet.

wolfdancer
08-20-2005, 04:47 PM
While I have my own reservtions about KT,also about reverting back to slow cloth, changing both the rules and the game.... this is a poorly composed, whining, letter from the WPA.

wolfdancer
08-20-2005, 05:01 PM
I don't see that the BCA's league sale was handled badly. I think the new Org. saw this as a business opportunity, a chance to take over without paying for that right, and to also protect their own jobs, while doing so.

Jim Walker
08-20-2005, 05:32 PM
What/who is the WPA? Why should KT or anyone else about to organize a tour submit their tour to the WPA for approval? If Mr Trudeau only runs this one event tonight and two people make a lot of money from it why should the WPA care? Worried you will not get your cut? Top professional pool players all over the world are still playing for peanuts compared to other sports. So what if the IPT only last for 6 months and some people make some money from it! The IPT will not prevent anyone from participating in any other tours/events. Pro's are still free to decide where and when they will play. I don't see the down side of the IPT. I think your only concern is that the WPA is not getting a piece of the action. There is no REAL pro tour to speak of. There are apparently a lot of unrelated tours around the U.S. What difference does one more make. The way I see it, the IPT will just give pro players one more chance to make some money. To be honest I've never heard of the WPA untill this letter. I've also never seen the world championship 9 ball tournament on TV here in Florida. Why is that? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Cane
08-20-2005, 06:46 PM
All I get from the letter is "wah, wah, we didn't get our cut of the added money, so this must be a bad thing, this IPT stuff.". I may be wrong, but I think the IPT is going to actually make a difference in pool. You can say what you want about Trudeau, his past, his business, etc, but the plain simple fact is that the man knows how to make money. A LOT OF MONEY! If he can get pool into the TV audience and PayPerView market, then he will have done more for pool than anyone has in decades.

WPA gets pool out to 500,000,000 viewers... well, brother, not in the US, it doesn't. We're lucky if we get to see 6 month old reruns of WPBA, UPA and WPA events (and the vast minority of those are WPA). If Trudeau can get a TV Market started in the US, then pool MAY finally get a little recognition and respect.

Keep in mind... The same kind of negative comments (con man, theif, nut, in it for the money) were said about Kevin Trudeau when he came up with the idea of GolfTV... yeah, his critics are eating dust now.

As for me... if my game was up a couple of more notches, I'd have an application in for membership to the IPT so fast it would make your head swim... and I think most players that are interested in playing for REAL money with low entry fees, instead of megabucks entry fees and peanuts for first place, will be on the list of applicants. I have talked to 4 TOP NOTCH players, names you would recognize, that ARE going to put their applications in for the IPT. They believe Trudeau, they believe Mike, they believe Rempe and the others that are throwing their hat in the ring.

Is the WPA running scared? Well, from the viewpoint of an American Poolplayer, who hasn't seen ANYTHING they've done to promote pool properly on this continent, they damn well BETTER be running scared.

Later,
Bob

Steve Lipsky
08-20-2005, 08:55 PM
This whole situation has really demonstrated what a mess professional pool is in right now.

I'm not sure what to think of the IPT, but for now, I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Some things that scare me about it are the conditions Mr. Trudeau has stipulated. 8-ball is the game that everyone plays?? For the last 5 years, whenever I see pool on, say, a sitcom, they're playing 9-ball. It's even in commercials. The only reason some people are still playing 8-ball is because it's the game most suited to a bar table. Try paying $2 per game to play 9-ball on a bar table, lol... in 20 minutes you'll have spent $40. And I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people who DO play bar table 8-ball will rebel against these newfangled rules, such as ball-in-hand and (gasp) safety play. The whole thing kind of stinks of a serious lack of understanding about the current pool environment.

Add to this Mike Sigel's chat on this website... people were asking him why the WPA world championships was not an accurate test of skill, and he responded with "short races"?? The finals of that tournament is a race to SEVENTEEN. How could Mike Sigel not know that, or if he did, disregard it?

However, with all due respect to Harold Acosta, that letter from the WPA was fairly silly. If Ian wants to send that letter to a non-pool demographic, go for it. But to send it to us - people who know that the WPA hasn't done much, especially (as Cane mentioned) in the US - is ludicrous.

500 million people are watching the WPA?? Ummmm... where's the money? A tournament that gets that kind of viewership should have a purse of millions of dollars. First place in that tournament is $75,000.

I also have no idea how other people feel about the Olympics, but if the WPA is spending money trying to make this a reality, this pool player feels that is a serious error. What would such a thing do for us? If it would even get televised (hugely doubtful), it'd be at like 3 in the morning. And again, I'm confused as to what it would do for us anyway.

New York City has some incredibly talented players, and their skills should get paid handsomely. While I haven't spoken to them, I'll assume they don't particularly care about pool in the Olympics. They care about being able to get paid for what they do so well. And they don't want to have to spend $3,000 to make the trip to Asia to play in the World Championships, understanding that the only way they will turn a profit is if they do extremely well in the tournament.

- Steve

Qtec
08-20-2005, 10:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]
......the plain simple fact is that the man knows how to make money <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> There,s no doubt about that! </font color>

[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind... The same kind of negative comments (con man, theif, nut, in it for the money) were said about Kevin Trudeau when he came up with the idea of GolfTV... yeah, his critics are eating dust now.
<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">Do you know that for a fact? </font color>

The tennis equivilent of this match-up would be B Borg v,s Navratilova and calling the winner world champion! Can you really see A Fisher turning down a min of $75,000 because the table is slow???????? Maybe she had other reasons. Maybe she didnt want to associated with a conman?
KT is a guy who sells fake cures to people who are sick. Can you get any lower?

Qtec............dont care how much money the guy,s got.

theinel
08-21-2005, 12:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I don't see that the BCA's league sale was handled badly. I think the new Org. saw this as a business opportunity, a chance to take over without paying for that right, and to also protect their own jobs, while doing so. <hr /></blockquote>
wolfdancer, I don't blame the new org in any way but the old/other BCA definitely handled things badly. If they had handled it better the 8-ball Nationals would never have dropped in attendance by a third (this year had 3,300 to 3,400 fewer people). I'm not saying they shouldn't have been able to sell the league just that the way they went about it was anything but good. I'm not sure what your references to the new org not "paying for that right" and trying to "protect their own jobs" mean. As far as I know the BCA Pool League (new org) did pay an undisclosed amount for the league system (If I'm wrong on the undisclosed part I apologize, but NP orgs shouldn't be allowed to do undisclosed deals in my mind) and none, or possibly very few, of the old BCA staff went with the new organization.

To bring this post back on topic, selling 500,000+ dues paying members of a not-for-profit organization, that could at the whim of it's new owner make any decision that new owner wanted to without anyones consent, should have been a more open process with WPA oversight. Based on the fears the WPA letter has expressed regarding the IPT, the WPA should have expressed similar concerns with the BCA sale but I never read of or heard of a single comment from the WPA regarding the BCA sale.

This post is not sour grapes. The BCA sale happened and the IPT is likely to create havoc with existing organizations, good or bad remains to be seen.

In both cases money talks and everyone else lives with the consequences.

The WPA should pull the current BCA trade organizations North American stewardship of the game as they have no player representation and even when they were told they needed one by the IOC they only started a process but never actually included any players. The current BCA doesn't represent players and should not be responsible for representing them. They do promote the industry but only from a profit making standpoint, leaving players to receive "trickle-down" benefits.

jjinfla
08-21-2005, 05:29 AM
Well, you have to admit that KT did get everyones attention.

So much so that I see that Charlie Williams held a challenge match between himself and Rodney Morris. I wonder if their payday was as good? Was CW able to generate the funds for a big payoff? Will CW be accused of holding out on the money and keeping most of it for himself like he was accused of in the past?

It will be interesting to see how the tournament at the convention Center in Orlando in November will be accepted by the people. Will it draw the fans (paying fans)?

Since there is no doubt that KT is an excellent marketer it will be interesting to see how he will generate additional income through promoting poolplayers.

Jake

Jim Walker
08-21-2005, 08:01 AM
The tennis equivilent of this match-up would be B Borg v,s Navratilova and calling the winner world champion!

Where does it say that Mike Segal will be world champion by beating LJJ ???

Can you really see A Fisher turning down a min of $75,000 because the table is slow???????? Maybe she had other reasons. Maybe she didnt want to associated with a conman?

Maybe she was just afraid of losing status by getting beat by MS. Many idiots actually think she is the best player in the world. That's because they can't compare her to any of the top men. And that's because she avoids them the same way television does. We are forced to watch AF beat up on a weak field of women players instead of being treated to the greatest players in the world by the jerks who insist on a 7 game final match because they are too lazy to edit a long match. If you want to complain about something complain about that. Don't complain about a man who is pumping money into the game just because he may also make a profit from it. It's exactly what the game needs. Someone to raise the status of pool to that of tennis/golf. All players could only benefit from something like that. If he fails then you can complain but untill then he should be given complete support by all.

KT is a guy who sells fake cures to people who are sick. Can you get any lower?

Do you work for the drug companies? /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Cane
08-21-2005, 08:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Keep in mind... The same kind of negative comments (con man, theif, nut, in it for the money) were said about Kevin Trudeau when he came up with the idea of GolfTV... yeah, his critics are eating dust now.
<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">Do you know that for a fact? </font color>
<font color="red"> Well, they damn sure aren't revelling in the prospect that they were right when they predicted Trudeaus failure, are they... I think eating dust is a proper analogy!</font color>

The tennis equivilent of this match-up would be B Borg v,s Navratilova and calling the winner world champion! Can you really see A Fisher turning down a min of $75,000 because the table is slow???????? Maybe she had other reasons. Maybe she didnt want to associated with a conman?

<font color="red"> Q, I've seen LJJ give many of the top women pros a hell of a hard time on the pool table. So, do I think Allison might have refused this offer because of the reasons Mike Sigel stated, more than just the slow cloth, btw, YOU DAMN SKIPPY I BELIEVE IT! Her odds of winning would have probably been 1 in 10 at best, and with slow cloth, no rail breaks, no jump cues, etc, they would probably have been less than that. </font color>

KT is a guy who sells fake cures to people who are sick. Can you get any lower?

<font color="red">Yeah, actually, you can. Like slinging mud at someone who's apparently trying to do something good for this game. I see so many on here and other forums screaming FOUL at KT, but he is the only promotor in the history of this game that's offered the players what he is offering. Why, instead of shooting air at the board, don't you wait until the first 3 or 4 events of this tour are in the past and ask the pro players that are involved in it about KT's integrity, instead of offering an internet conviction of him before things even get going? Just curious... are you involved heavily in the WPA? </font color>

Qtec............dont care how much money the guy,s got. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">Neither do I... what I do care about is how much money he has already invested in the IPT venture. What I do care about is that he has done something that has the WPA writing letters that smell of desperation. What I do care about is FINALLY someone is trying to make pool the kind of venture it should be. I hope the guy makes BILLIONS on this... because if he does, in the long run BILLIARDS will be the winner, right along with Kevin Trudeau. If he fails, or if he gives it up after a year or two, then what the hell have we lost? Pool is in the toilet right now, no other organization has attempted a format that might get TV coverage or PPV events for pool, no promotor has every laid out the kind of payouts that KT is and the players playing on the various tours damn sure could use the kind of money the IPT is going to pay. </font color>

Just my opinion, which is certainly biased by my hopes that pool will be something special again someday, and not just a bunch of reruns of aged matches on ESPN2.

Later,
Bob

Scott Lee
08-21-2005, 09:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr>
To bring this post back on topic, selling 500,000+ dues paying members of a not-for-profit organization, that could at the whim of it's new owner make any decision that new owner wanted to without anyones consent, should have been a more open process with WPA oversight. <hr /></blockquote>

theinel...Where do you get these numbers from? The BCA has NEVER even approached 500,000 "dues paying" members. The biggest membership they'eve ever had was listed at around 80,000. The APA is the largest "dues paying" member organization, which is for-profit, just like the BCA league now. The APA has around 200,000 members. There are not a half million even if you add all the "dues paying" league members together, including TAP, VNEA, APA, and BCA.

Scott Lee

Harold Acosta
08-21-2005, 09:57 AM
Post in blue is the WPA's position on the matter. Posts in red is my own personal opinion.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr>

My question for you is slightly off topic but of great concern to many. The BCA trade organization is the North American WPA sanctioned body. Last year it sold it's league/national tournament program/ and entire player membership, with over 500k members (according to BCA publications), to a private, for profit business, which I'm sure was legally within their right to do but was handled so badly as to splinter that organization and decrease the attendance at this years national tournament by about a third.

I am not knocking the new BCA Pool League, or Mark Griffin, who put on an excellent event, but I want to know if the WPA, and the world pool community are all that you say then where were they during the sale of a major non-profit player organization to a private individual who can come or go at personal whim (for the record I don't think that Mark is going anywhere and this post is not meant to say anything bad about him)? <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> A league sale is a continental matter. WPA does not interfere with such affairs. However, the Billiard Congress of America’s (now the trade assn.) status within the WPA structure may be jeopardized because it dropped its player programs and 64,000 members. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr>
Pool, in it's many forms, is ancient and played world wide but hasn't yet reached Olympic status. How well is the WPA doing at promoting the sport? <hr /></blockquote>


<font color="red"> Billiards has been recognized as an Olympic Sport; however, it has not been included in their program. This decision is solely of the International Olympic Committee. This year they dropped softball and baseball and did not include any other new sport. There are several disciplines in billiards (pool, snooker, caroom), therefore, it seems that the IOC would have to decide on which of these 3 disciplines. Not an easy task. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr>
Very few professional pool players earn a living based on pool earnings. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">There are many reasons for this being true. Lack of big sponsorship money, number of players showing up at the events, paying at least a quarter of the field, player's travel expenses, operating expenses, promotional expenses, TV expenses, venue expenses, etc. Scores of people work at these events; therefore, it is not a matter of just the players expenses, everyone involved in the events have expenses and I believe they need to be covered; don't you?. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr>
If the IPT succeeds can you work with them? <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> I presume that the WPA is always willing to work things out with any organization. I think the IPT would have to consider that themselves </font color>

Harold Acosta
08-21-2005, 10:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Hi Harold,

In the other thread, you wrote that "I think we just have to wait and see." I think that's smart. I understand the WPA's concern but I think this letter makes them look more threatened than anything else. I think it would have been wiser for them to take a wait and see tact with this.

Just because initial negotiations between the WPA and IPT failed, it doesn't mean that the IPT couldn't come around in the future and support the WPA. I hope I'm wrong, but unfortunately, I think that this letter just about locked the door and threw away the key on any chance of that happening.

Fran
<hr /></blockquote>

Hello Fran:

My initial posts were based on my own personal opinion and didn't go into much details. The posts were made right after the chat with Trudeau. I think that many of his responses were not carefully thought of.

Then I got the WPA letter. The letter is posted at the WPA website. The letter was addressed to all Players and Federations. Apparently is was also addressed to the media; however, I have not seen it posted at any of the known web-sites. I then asked permission to bring it up at some of the known boards.

The initial negotiations between the WPA and IPT failed and I too hope that everything comes around for the benefit of everyone.

Plummerbutt
08-21-2005, 11:07 AM
Exactly what Cane said. Great post Cane!!

Before I even read this post I had to wonder why someone would bitch about a person who is bringing a chance to enhance the game of pool, bring TV exposure, bring in alot of money also. Don't sound so bad to me.

I figured the bitchin had to be coming from those who wouldn't be good enough to cash in on the tournament. Am I right? If it makes you feel any better, I won't be lining up for any checks either. But the fact is this will be good for pool and may just be what brings it back to its former status.

Harold Acosta
08-21-2005, 11:08 AM
Jake, the WPA is not scared, it is concerned. Just read the letter again objectively.

Harold Acosta
08-21-2005, 11:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> While I have my own reservtions about KT,also about reverting back to slow cloth, changing both the rules and the game.... this is a poorly composed, whining, letter from the WPA.
<hr /></blockquote>

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but shouldn't you be concerned that the IPT does not support the up and coming players for one thing?

Doesn't it bother you that the IPT will select their members? That it is not open to everyone?

Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion...

Qtec
08-21-2005, 11:26 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Well, they damn sure <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">Who are 'they'? You sound like KT! </font color>
Qtec,
[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> Me KT is a guy who sells fake cures to people who are sick. Can you get any lower? </font color>

Yeah, actually, you can. Like slinging mud at someone who's apparently trying to do something good for this game. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> I,m quoting facts, not slinging mud. There is a difference.
You might want to check my other post about his 'infomercials'. Count how many times he LIES THROUGH HIS TEETH! </font color>

[ QUOTE ]
Why, instead of shooting air at the board, don't you wait until the first 3 or 4 events of this tour are in the past and ask the pro players that are involved in it about KT's integrity, instead of offering an internet conviction of him before things even get going? Just curious... are you involved heavily in the WPA?
<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> KT,s 'integrity'is well documented. Do some research.</font color>


In the eye of the US public, pool is a gambling game played in smoke filled bars ie, dens of iniquity. With KT, it can only get worse.
Do you really want Earl standing there saying "buy this cream- it cures baldness, cancer and makes you live till you are 150 years old and will reduce your handicap by 20 stokes with only 5 mins a day practice.?"
Or "buy this aiming system and never miss a ball again?" /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Its sad that pool is in such a state[ in the US] that a con-man waves a few bills around and everyone forgets their morals and goes gaga, salivating over the prospect of making a few bucks.
You know what they say about some thing thats 'too good to be true'?


Qtec.........end of rant.

Harold Acosta
08-21-2005, 11:29 AM
The WPA (World Pool-Billiard Association) is the World Governing Body of Pool.

Please visit: http://www.wpa-pool.com/

Did you know that the WPA has a ranking system for all the Players of the World?

Sanctioning of so called "World Pool Events" help players obtain additional points in the WPA ranking system. Isn't that good for Pool?

Many of your other questions are within the posted letter. Please read again. Be objective.

The WPA is a non-for-profit organization, meaning that work is done on an honorary basis.

Sanctioning also prevents clashes between tournaments, among other matters stated.

Where have you been all these years? It is hard to believe you did not know about the WPA.

Qtec
08-21-2005, 11:39 AM
<font color="blue"> Where does it say that Mike Segal will be world champion by beating LJJ ??? </font color>
<font color="red"> Its called the "IPT World 8-Ball Championship". What do you call the winner of a 'World Championship". ?? The World Champion? If the winner isnt World Champion its a bit of a CON / LIE to call that in the first place, dont you think???????????? </font color>

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe she was just afraid of losing status by getting beat by MS. Many idiots actually think she is the best player in the world. That's because they can't compare her to any of the top men <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> With this statement, you have just proved to the rest of the CCB the you are a total idiot. </font color>


Qtec......gasp.

Colin
08-21-2005, 12:07 PM
<font color="blue">My comments in blue:</font color>

Did you know that the WPA has a ranking system for all the Players of the World?
<font color="blue">Yes, and it is not a very useful ranking system as the players rarely get a chance to play at the same tournaments. </font color>

Sanctioning of so called "World Pool Events" help players obtain additional points in the WPA ranking system. Isn't that good for Pool?
<font color="blue"> It's ok I guess, but not very valuable. </font color>

Many of your other questions are within the posted letter. Please read again. Be objective.

The WPA is a non-for-profit organization, meaning that work is done on an honorary basis.
<font color="blue">Non-profits are rarely effective in promoting sports. They usually become highly political and bureacratic.

The term honarary is a bit misleading there are salaries and travel expenses afforded to the WPA. </font color>

Sanctioning also prevents clashes between tournaments, among other matters stated.
<font color="blue">And IPT would care about that for what reason? </font color>

Where have you been all these years? It is hard to believe you did not know about the WPA.
<font color="blue">It's just more evidence that the WPA hasn't had much influence of note.

I read elsewhere how pool has grown such as the WPC, but this was primarily the work of Barry Hearn. The WPA shouldn't really claim credit for that. </font color>

Jim Walker
08-21-2005, 07:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <font color="blue"> Where does it say that Mike Segal will be world champion by beating LJJ ??? </font color>
<font color="red"> Its called the "IPT World 8-Ball Championship". What do you call the winner of a 'World Championship". ?? The World Champion? If the winner isnt World Champion its a bit of a CON / LIE to call that in the first place, dont you think???????????? </font color>

Well I missed that but who cares? Mike just won $150000. So it's a beginning. How can giving $150,000 first place and $75,000 second place money be bad for pool? Please explain. Others will get a chance later on.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Maybe she was just afraid of losing status by getting beat by MS. Many idiots actually think she is the best player in the world. That's because they can't compare her to any of the top men <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> With this statement, you have just proved to the rest of the CCB the you are a total idiot. </font color>

Name calling is not exactly improving your status here. Please provide a rebuttal to my above statement. I'm confused. Do you actually believe AF can beat the top men pros in a match of any length? Instead of name calling, please put your thoughts into print for all to see.
By the way KT does not sell fake cures. He sells a book which promotes alternatives to getting hooked on drugs provided by drug companies. He's making money selling his book and drug companies are getting rich selling addictive drugs/drugs which once started cannot be stopped. Maybe you should take 2 Vioxx and call me in the morning (if you are still alive). /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Qtec......gasp. <hr /></blockquote>

Qtec
08-21-2005, 11:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe she was just afraid of losing status by getting beat by MS. <font color="blue"> Or maybe it was the other way around. </font color> Many idiots actually think she is the best player in the world. <font color="blue"> What proof do have to support this wild assumption? </font color> That's because they can't compare her to any of the top men <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> It might have escaped your notice but the women have their own competition.</font color>

[ QUOTE ]
Name calling is not exactly improving your status here. <font color="blue"> HaHaHa. </font color> Please provide a rebuttal to my above statement. I'm confused. <font color="blue"> obviously! </font color> Do you actually believe AF can beat the top men pros in a match of any length? <font color="blue"> Show me where I said this or gave the impression that I believe this.</font color> Instead of name calling, please put your thoughts into print for all to see. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> I think I already have. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color>

AF is the best women's player and one of the best women's players to ever have picked up a cue. I cannot recall EVER seeing a thread where it was contested that AF was the best player in the world when the men were included.
Your whole argument is a strawman.

Qtec

Berry
08-22-2005, 02:01 AM
people people,

We can confirm that this man has been convicted for creditcard fraud and Pyramid scheme, so lets say he is not a very good person to invest 899$ to be put on a list for the selection of the tournaments....

Then we have this great match "8 ball championship" wich is just bull. Let's say I organize a big match and let 2 great players play each other. I contact them and say that they get 10.000$ per person to play. Then I make a big ad saying that the winner gets a million and the loser 500.000. It's called publicity. I heard that this is also done with snooker a long time ago.

Then a very importend thing you forget is what if he organizes a IPT on the same date as the US Open. Then the US Open can shut down and sponsors and advertisers walk away. No way that he can have a big US Open the year after.
It is never good for the sport to get a wild tour who does what ever they want and when ever they want.

I hope that the players make a wise desicion and will stick with the WPA and their many many big tournament organisators from all the country's who did join the WPA.

Regards,

Berry

theinel
08-22-2005, 03:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr>
To bring this post back on topic, selling 500,000+ dues paying members of a not-for-profit organization, that could at the whim of it's new owner make any decision that new owner wanted to without anyones consent, should have been a more open process with WPA oversight. <hr /></blockquote>

theinel...Where do you get these numbers from? The BCA has NEVER even approached 500,000 "dues paying" members. The biggest membership they'eve ever had was listed at around 80,000. The APA is the largest "dues paying" member organization, which is for-profit, just like the BCA league now. The APA has around 200,000 members. There are not a half million even if you add all the "dues paying" league members together, including TAP, VNEA, APA, and BCA.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>
Scoot,

I'm very sorry for the misinformation in my post. I always try to carefully read and re-read my comments before posting them to catch possible errors and for such a major error to get by me is embarrassing.

I meant 50,000 and that was a conservative estimate because I don't know how the numbers are calculated and I'm sure that they could be overstated (the 250k that the APA now claim is also likely overstated).

Even being an order of magnitude off I still feel that my general point is valid. Any pool sanctioning body should be non-profit and composed of and/or represent the players (an idea supported by the IOC and other major sports bodies). The WPA sanctioning of the BCA (trade organization) should be revoked because the BCA sold its players without so much as consulting them and it now consists only of "trade members", who are admittedly important to the sport but are not the sport itself.

Again my apologies.

Terry

P.S. Combining the TAP, VNEA, APA, and BCA memberships wouldn't produce much of an increase over just the claimed APA membership because of the great amount of overlap that exists within those membership lists.

Dagwood
08-22-2005, 03:10 AM
Just felt that I should put my 2 cents in...

As it stands right now, Pool and Billiards, at least in the United States, will never be able to compete with the major sports. What it needs is someone like KT, to take it to the next level of sponsorship and promotion. Now, I realize that KT is possibly not the most trustworthy person. And I don't like the fact that he is trying to foul up some of the established institutes in our game, (the US Open). I just hope that he is sucessfull at this venture, while maintaining some of the staple tournaments which we enjoy year in and year out. That's the only way to make everyone happy, and even then, many people are going to be unsatisfied. Things need to change in order for pool to move next to sports like Golf. Unfortunately, from the way things look, if KT is sucessfull, we may lose those great tourney's such as the US Open.

As far as the rules changes and tourney formats? I can't stand them from what I've read. But I don't really believe that if this is successfull the classic tourney format will go away. I guess I'm just riding the fence on this one..

Dags

theinel
08-22-2005, 03:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Harold Acosta:</font><hr><font color="blue"> A league sale is a continental matter. WPA does not interfere with such affairs. However, the Billiard Congress of America’s (now the trade assn.) status within the WPA structure may be jeopardized because it dropped its player programs and 64,000 members. </font color><hr /></blockquote>
Thanks for your reply Harold. I don't consider a league sale any different from a member sale when each and every league member pays yearly dues to the BCA but I am happy to hear that the WPA is at least considering the matter.

Thanks again for your support of the game.

woody_968
08-22-2005, 06:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dagwood:</font><hr> And I don't like the fact that he is trying to foul up some of the established institutes in our game, (the US Open). <hr /></blockquote>

Has he posted that he is running a tournament during the US Open? I missed that if he did.

Have any of the tours tried to work with him as far as scheduling goes to make sure there is not a conflict? If they try to keep communications open with him and he still schedules over them then that is a problem. If they cut ties with him (which by most of the posts I have read that is what they are doing) then I dont think he will care when their tournaments are held.

He has stated he hopes the other tours continue to be successful (and until he proves otherwise Ill believe it) I dont think Sigel would be supporting it if he though KT was out to hurt pool.

JMO.

Woody

Fran Crimi
08-22-2005, 07:08 AM
Remember Harold, that Barry Hearn was running his own events for quite awhile and choosing the players as well, prior to hooking up with the WPA. I didn't see any letters circulating by the WPA to other federations warning them of Barry Hearn back then.

Fran

Scott Lee
08-22-2005, 07:41 AM
theinel...I thought you probably meant 50,000, but I wanted to make sure. Many folks who read here probably are not aware of the actual numbers. APA's figures are accurate, but include Canada as well as the U.S. (just like BCA and ACS). As a former APA L.O., I find it pretty funny that the APA predicted well over 10 years ago, that their organization would have ONE MILLION members (an increase of 700% over their published numbers then) before the end of the century. Ha...in all that time, it's only increased
about 30%...and this is from the largest league network anywhere.

It's interesting to note that there are around 4 million 'hard core' poolplayers (folks who play leagues and tournaments, play daily or weekly, may gamble frequently, etc...in other words, like most of us here), yet all the organized national leagues account for only about 10% of that number. Plus, as you noted, there is certainly some duplication, due to playing in more than one league. BD's circulation is about 20,000. Where are the rest of these players? They are playing in their own local leagues, or just don't get around much. IMO, there is a lack of communication that prevents more people from jumping in to support the game on a national level. I am continually amazed as I travel around the country teaching, how many people are unaware of what's happening in the pool world.
Personally, I doubt that KT would ever schedule one of his events to intentionally conflict with another big pro event.
There are so few big tournaments for the players anyway, that they will play whenever and wherever they are able...
and certainly should be able to, with no threat of retribution. The political attitudes of some of the organizations (then and now), that dictate policies like, "if you play in THAT event, you CAN'T play in ours", is absurd.

Scott Lee

Barbara
08-22-2005, 08:07 AM
You know, we finally get someone to throw some money into pool and all the other tours care about is getting their sanctioning fees from the new guy in town. And if they don't, well heck! Then you must be afraid of this new tour.

What a crock of sh$t!

Barbara

Qtec
08-22-2005, 08:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I doubt that KT would ever schedule one of his events to intentionally conflict with another big pro event.
<hr /></blockquote>

Have you read the chat page Scott ?

[ QUOTE ]
&lt;Q&gt;Are there any considerations for schedule conflicts with existing tournaments?
k trudeau &lt;A&gt;no..they must consider the money here..
<hr /></blockquote>

Ala Chandler/Friends,
"COULD it be any clearer!" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It would be great if someone with cash was willing to promote the game for the 'games' sake. The letter from the WPA was poorly written and could really be condensed to one paragraph with much mre effect, but the warning is clear.
KT has said that HE will pick and choose who plays and who doesnt.

Qtec

Qtec
08-22-2005, 09:52 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you should take 2 Vioxx and call me in the morning (if you are still alive).
<hr /></blockquote>

Actually, I was on Vioxx for 6 months. I stopped taking because I was getting heart palpitations. The Doc said it was nothing to worry about! [ this is a year or so ago] F that I said. I know what I feel.
Its pretty scary when you feel your heart stopping!
I dont trust drug companies [ I hate pills] or the Govt[ any Govt !] - ask anyone here on the board! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec

wolfdancer
08-22-2005, 10:27 AM
[ QUOTE ]
By the way KT does not sell fake cures. He sells a book which promotes alternatives to getting hooked on drugs provided by drug companies. He's making money selling his book and drug companies are getting rich selling addictive drugs/drugs which once started cannot be stopped. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> </font color> Didn't he also make $$, selling Coral Calcium, and biotape?
And those "addictive drugs" have helped keep alive, some people that I know.
Isn't it odd that someone with no medical background,and questional ethics, has unearthed all these "cures" that were suppressed by the Doctor/Drug company conspirancy. You would think that maybe, just maybe, one Doctor, one that was perhaps inspired to become an MD, because he thought he could do some good....would have blown the whistle on this coverup, long before KT did.
Years ago, Oral roberts told my friends Mother that she didn't need her heart medication.....if she truly believed, God would heal her.....she died shortly after.
I wonder how many will die, giving up their addictive drugs in favor of KT's home remedies?

Jim Walker
08-22-2005, 10:49 AM
All I can say is read his book. Then maybe you can make an informed decision about what drugs you are so quick to jump on the bandwagon and start taking just because your doctor recommended it. Have you noticed how much advertising the drug companies are putting on TV these days. Why are they spending billions of dollars on advertising drugs that you can't get over the counter? These same drugs are provided to your doctor as "free samples" to encourage him to recommend them. Doctors and drug companies are working together ... not independently.
In any case if jack the ripper wants to dump 15 Millon dollars into the pool industry, I'm all for it. The guys at the top of the ladder are really good and deserve to earn a decent living. I am a fan of pro pool. I go to the U.S. Open evey year to watch the best in the world compete. I wish them success and MORE MONEY. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Colin
08-22-2005, 11:05 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it odd that someone with no medical background,and questional ethics, has unearthed all these "cures" that were suppressed by the Doctor/Drug company conspirancy. You would think that maybe, just maybe, one Doctor, one that was perhaps inspired to become an MD, because he thought he could do some good....would have blown the whistle on this coverup, long before KT did.
<hr /></blockquote>
Thousands of MDs and even Nobel Prize winners have publically accused the medical establishment of various severe wrong doings.

Try reading or wathching something other than the mainstream media and you'll find tons of articles and books on the subject. Start googling!

Conspiracies don't require everyone to be in on the plot. It is incorrect incentive systems that tempt a few here and there in the wrong direction. eg. Sales for drug x, that requires ongoing use to treat symptoms makes big money. Drug or cure y that fixes the problem makes no money. Company policy leads to the development of drugs of the first type.

Most MD's are blissfully unaware about the whole thing as they are trained in diagnosis (badly) not treatment. They accept the word or the pharmaceutical sales reps about what is the best going treatment accoriding to whichever brands are under current patent protection usually. The whole system is a complete disaster and pharma companies have a lot of control over the media.

Take SARS as an example. 350 people died of that strain of influenza over 6 months. Each 6 month perion in the US alone approximately 18,000 people die of influenza.

The media had the world believing it was the worst thing since the black plague. It nearly froze the Chinese economy and had the Chinese government in back room talks with the WHO (controlled by the pharma companies). The whole thing was a show of force to China to make sure they can get their patent protection in the world's fastest growing market. It is dirty business.

wolfdancer
08-22-2005, 11:07 AM
Seems we disagree on several points here:
First, I'd attribute the decline in attendance, to the fact that some former BCA players left and joined the newer BCS, not the sale was handled badly.....most players could care less, as long as the tournament was in place.
Do you have any facts to support your claim that the sale was handled badly? My understanding is that before Mark bought the league rights, he was assured of the support of a now, key board member of the BCS, and Mark has written an open letter outlining his intentions for the league operations.
And the reason that "none, or possibly very few of the old BCA staff went with the new org"...was that they formed their own new organization, thus insuring they would be able to keep their jobs. You can have a non-profit org, and still pay nice salaries.
Re: your "whim" line....Mark's a good businessman, I doubt he'd make an unpopular decision on a whim, or otherwise.
Re: "based on the fears the WPA has expressed regarding the IPT...WPA oversight...."
I didn't like it when Sears and K-Mart merged....I just can't see Martha selling Craftsman tools......but neither I, nor the WPA had any legal right to interfere.
What would be the WPA's concern re the BCA???
And re your last paragraph....again, any facts to support your "trickle down" theory?
Do you think that one player rep on the BCS board will influence the baord's decisions?

wolfdancer
08-22-2005, 11:47 AM
Why would I have to "Google" to find out that drug companies, like all big business's....bend the rules? It's in the paper every day.
So, I'll buy into your premise that Doctors are woefully ignorant about the very drugs that they prescribe...however to make this conspiracy/dependency work, the research scientists must be operating under some guidelines that their new drugs must not only cure, they must be addictive.
Makes you wonder how they let Penicillin, and the Salk Vaccine in???
I get emails every day from a company with new "miracle" natural remedies from the Amazon jungle.....and that info is free,and well worth the money. (healthiernews) I don't have to buy KT's book, nor sign up for a monthly, or lifetime membership for his new updates to "Natural Cures...."
With all his $$,already banked, you would think that a real humanitarian, would include these updates for free to purchasers of the book.

wolfdancer
08-22-2005, 12:01 PM
I won't be buying the book, Patricia Cornwell writes better fiction anyway. I've already bought my "share" of KT's products, and I already know about the "free samples", etc.
I went to the Reno tournament for 12 years, twice a year....I have over 100 Accu-Stat match tapes, and quite a few instructional tapes. I think I support pool.I'm all for anyone trying to promote the game, and hope this all works out for everybody. I just have a "caveat emptor" reservation, about KT.....Same feeling I had about Coral Calcium, and Biotape

Dagwood
08-22-2005, 03:28 PM
I was just using information that was put out in a previous post. If the information is incorrect, then I appologize. Serves me right for not checking the facts in my post before I put it on the board.

Dags (not trying to badmouth anyone...just want the situation resolved to everyone's benefit.)

Jim Walker
08-22-2005, 03:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Maybe she was just afraid of losing status by getting beat by MS. <font color="blue"> Or maybe it was the other way around. </font color> Many idiots actually think she is the best player in the world. <font color="blue"> What proof do have to support this wild assumption? </font color> That's because they can't compare her to any of the top men <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> It might have escaped your notice but the women have their own competition.</font color>

Try to follow the text of conversation. It may be difficult at first but give it a try. Where did anyone say they didn't have their own competition? What does that have to do with anything? I made a statement that many idiots believe that she is the best player in the world. If you don't know anyone that believes that then I guess you live in a cave and don't get out much. For that statement you call me an idiot. I have several friends that actually told me that. I have even heard Mitch Lawrence refer to her as the best in the world. Surely he was meaning to say the best woman in the world but it did not come of his mouth that way.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Name calling is not exactly improving your status here. <font color="blue"> HaHaHa. </font color> Please provide a rebuttal to my above statement. I'm confused. <font color="blue"> obviously! </font color> Do you actually believe AF can beat the top men pros in a match of any length? <font color="blue"> Show me where I said this or gave the impression that I believe this.</font color> Instead of name calling, please put your thoughts into print for all to see. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> I think I already have. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color>

You gave the impression that you believed it when I said some idiots believe it and you called me an idiot for that statement. Maybe that's where I'm getting confused? Sure looked like you believed it.

AF is the best women's player and one of the best women's players to ever have picked up a cue. I cannot recall EVER seeing a thread where it was contested that AF was the best player in the world when the men were included.
Your whole argument is a strawman.

I did not refer to any thread concerning AF and her ability. Guess you just made another incorrect assumption. I'm posting my personal experiences with people I know. You need to have an ice cold something and cool down so you can read and comprehend properly.
Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

t411
08-22-2005, 05:11 PM
If the IPT is such a bad deal it will fall on its face and the WPA will be happy and word about the IPT from WPA would not have to have been muttered.
By the way, we all call the Super Bowl Champions, the World Series Champions, NBA Champions, “World Champions”; what other “Champions” from around the world do these teams play to be called “World Champions”? Why does it matter who the Governing bodies are? I do not think the IPT needs the WPA.

wolfdancer
08-22-2005, 06:29 PM
AND 225,000 reasons why we should support the IPT?
So they recycled the rules, and recycled the players, but $$ makes a powerful statement.
Even if the IPT fails, those were two nice paychecks.
Too bad the match didn't have a little more drama, like hill/hill. That way, it could have stirred up a little interest in another World Championship????
If KT wants a match with some real excitement......
Jean Vs Allison.....maybe this kind of $$ will entice Jean???
I'll stay tuned

Barbara
08-22-2005, 06:36 PM
Maybe Jean will come back in a tour or a format that won't crucify her for her beliefs.

Barbara

wolfdancer
08-22-2005, 06:50 PM
you mean she believes in evolution?...wait, don't go there!!

Colin
08-22-2005, 11:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Why would I have to "Google" to find out that drug companies, like all big business's....bend the rules? It's in the paper every day.
So, I'll buy into your premise that Doctors are woefully ignorant about the very drugs that they prescribe...however to make this conspiracy/dependency work, the research scientists must be operating under some guidelines that their new drugs must not only cure, they must be addictive.<hr /></blockquote>
Researchers basically do the research they are funded to do. Not all, but many profitable medicines are developed to relieve the symptom temporarily and hence require regular usage. A low cost, non-patentable medicine is direct competition to pharm companies who fund 99% of research. They will not pursue research on such possible cures and they have time and time again used the FDA to ban such medicines and treatment methods.

[ QUOTE ]

Makes you wonder how they let Penicillin, and the Salk Vaccine in???
I get emails every day from a company with new "miracle" natural remedies from the Amazon jungle.....and that info is free,and well worth the money. (healthiernews) I don't have to buy KT's book, nor sign up for a monthly, or lifetime membership for his new updates to "Natural Cures...." <hr /></blockquote> Maybe you should, although there are many other books providing similar or better information. KT just markets his better.

[ QUOTE ]


With all his $$,already banked, you would think that a real humanitarian, would include these updates for free to purchasers of the book. <hr /></blockquote>
So it is humanitarian to give things away? Charity leads to dependence. Profit is a signal for companies to invest more resources in better and bigger production, to expand distribution i order to find more and better satisfy consumers who voluntarily buy their product. Hence making a gain.

This is the engine of capitalism. It is not the idealism of Marxism and communal sharing which led to the starvation of 60+ million last century.

Rich R.
08-23-2005, 09:10 AM
I'm sure I will repeat what some others have said, but let me throw my two cents in this thread.

First of all, like many others, I am concerned about Mr. Trudeau's past problems with the law. However, that is in the past. I'm sure we all have skeletons we would like to burry. Let's allow him the benefit of the doubt. So far, he seems to be living up to his word.

I have several problems with the letter from Mr. Anderson, on behalf of the WPA.

A recurring theme in this letter seems to be that the WPA will not be getting any money from the IPT for sanctioning. In fact, IMHO, that is the main theme of this letter. I honestly do not see how WPA sanctioning would be a benefit to the IPT. This may be some "sour grapes" on behalf of the WPA, and little more.

I also have problems with several of the things Mr. Anderson says in his letter.

He said, "Like many others before, IPT sees itself as its own authority and does not wish to be under the scrutiny of any legitimate body, such as the WPA. This decision of theirs is cause for concern in itself. Why wouldn’t they want legitimate sanctioning by the world’s only legitimately recognized international organization for pool? This is a good question to consider. Because at the end of the day the sanctioning doesn’t cost them anything; it is for free because the sanctioning fee comes from the added prize fund."

Why shouldn't the IPT be concerned about money coming out of the prize fund?

Mr. Anderson and the WPA pretend to be the people who are protecting players, but in this statement, Mr. Anderson is telling us that an organization shouldn't worry about money coming out of the pockets of the players. Am I the only one who thinks that this is wrong?

Mr. Anderson goes on about the money the WPA would receive. He says, "When you consider the amounts of money being bandied about, the amount that the WPA would receive may seem like an awful lot of money for a pool organization to get, but the truth is that all of the money goes back into the sport. The main bulk of this money would most likely be put back in the form of one or two extra tournaments each year, or used to boost up prize money to already existing events."

Indicating that the money would "most likely" be put back is not really a guarantee, IMHO.

I guess only promoters have to guarantee where money is going, not the WPA and its affiliates.

Mr. Anderson claims that "the WPA World 9-Ball Championship goes out to 80 countries with an audience of some 500,000,000."

I don't know about others here, but I have never had the opportunity to see that championship on my TV. I guess the U.S.A. is not considered one of the 80 countries worthy of seeing that broadcast.

Mr. Anderson also indicates that we have no assurances from IPT as to how long they intend to stay in the business.

I have to ask, what assurances do we have from any organization or business, that they will stay around? Organizations fall prey to economics constantly. Businesses are in the same boat and businesses are also bought and sold every day. I'm sure they all would tell you they will be here tomorrow, but there are no "assurances".

Mr. Anderson also stresses the point that the WPA is a non-profit organization and they are obligated to invest back into the sport one way or the other.

Although I don't know the inner workings of the WPA, I do have a small amount of knowledge concerning other non-profit organizations. There are many people, making a lot of money, within non-profit organizations, including many of the charities that we all support.

I'm wondering if Mr. Anderson would like to disclose the salaries paid to all of the people working for the WPA, including himself.

Maybe I'm too skeptical, but my feelings about Mr. Anderson's letter are, it is a bunch of B.S. and he is trying to intimidate the IPT by gaining support from the pool community, as a whole. I don't think this tactic will work, but stranger things have happened.

For me, this letter has made me more skeptical of the WPA, than the IPT.

dooziexx
08-24-2005, 07:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Harold Acosta:</font><hr> It’s being hailed as the “World 8-Ball Championship”. That’s great isn’t it? Here is an event being played between two Americans and that is supposed to constitute a legitimate world championship, at least according to IPT !<hr /></blockquote>

In Major League Baseball, the championship series is called the WORLD SERIES. Wheres the rest of the world involve in it?? Last I check, there 1 'foreign' team left, The Toronto Blue Jays. The WORLD does not consists of USA &amp; Canada... Point is, IPT can call it whatever it wants.. Hey WPA doesnt like it, too bad... Sounds like WPA wants a piece of the pie by sanctioning IPT events...

Qtec
08-25-2005, 08:37 AM
JW,
[ QUOTE ]
All I can say is read his book. <hr /></blockquote>



[ QUOTE ]
Cancer ‘cures’ are empty promises in Kevin Trudeau’s ‘Natural Cures’ book




The New York State Consumer Protection Board (“CPB”) is warning consumers that a fast-selling book by Kevin Trudeau does not contain the “natural cures” for cancer and other diseases that Trudeau is promising in a nationwide television ad campaign.

The CPB says Trudeau is not only misrepresenting the contents of his self-published book, he is also using false endorsements to encourage consumers to buy “Natural Cures They Don’t Want You to Know About.”

“This book is exploiting and misleading people who are searching for cures to serious illnesses,” said Teresa A. Santiago, Chairperson Teresa A. Santiago. “What they discover is page after page after page of pure speculation -- not the cures for cancer and other diseases that are promised.”

“From cover to cover, this book is a fraud. The front cover makes false promises about ‘natural cures’ that are in the book, while the back cover includes false endorsements, including one from a doctor who died three years before the book was even written,” Chairperson Santiago said.

These false endorsements extend to Trudeau’s television infomercials, Chairperson Santiago said, citing in particular the infomercial featuring the former Tammy Faye Bakker (now Messner). Tammy Faye appears in Trudeau’s infomercial because she is suffering from a reoccurrence of cancer.

The ad gives the false impression that Tammy Faye opposes chemotherapy in favor of the ‘natural cures’ in Trudeau’s book. A representative for Tammy Faye said that is not true and that she is starting chemotherapy again.

“We’re asking Mr. Trudeau to pull this ad – not only because of the misleading ‘endorsement’ by Tammy Faye, but also because Mr. Trudeau advertises so-called ‘cures’ that are not even mentioned in his book,” said Chairperson Santiago. In his infomercial with Tammy Faye, Trudeau cites only one specific cancer “cure” – a “serum” allegedly invented by a New York City zoologist in the 1960’s.

“As unbelievable as it seems, the key to stopping many cancers has been around for over 30 years,” Trudeau said before claiming this serum was banned by the government. Although he mentions this anecdote in his television ad, there is nothing about this in his book, Chairperson Santiago noted.

Trudeau also told Tammy Faye that his book contains a “technique” to quit smoking among other addictions. The book, he said, even includes the method Trudeau allegedly used to quit smoking. In the book, however, Trudeau writes: “If you want to know the exact method that I used to quit smoking, go to www.naturalcures.com (http://www.naturalcures.com) and become a private member.”

Consumers in New York (see last page) and across the country are complaining that the book is just another commercial for Trudeau’s website and monthly newsletters. Throughout the book, readers are told that the cures they are looking for, in many cases, are available if they spend more money and subscribe to Trudeau’s newsletter or his website. Both cost $71.40 per year or $499 for a “lifetime membership.”

“This is not a matter of ‘free speech’ as Mr. Trudeau claims: if you advertise the contents of a book, it had better contain what has been promised,” said Chairperson Santiago.

On the back jacket, Trudeau begins a list of endorsements with a quotation from Dr. Herbert Ley, a former commissioner of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. But Ley never endorsed or even read Trudeau’s book because he died on July 22, 2001.

The book also has a quotation from Dr. My Haley, widow of “Roots” author, Alex Haley. Dr. Haley said her quotation (…”it would be hard these days to find a better read”) was not meant to be an endorsement of the book’s health claims. Instead, Dr. Haley said she was only suggesting that the book was “an exciting read.”

“The hypocrisy surrounding this book and its advertisements is galling because people with real illnesses are being misled,” said Chairperson Santiago. “This book and its marketing machine are a cynical attempt by Mr. Trudeau to cash in on his legal troubles with the federal government.”

“The hypocrisy surrounding this book and its advertisements is galling because people with real illnesses are being misled,” said Chairperson Santiago. “This book and its marketing machine are a cynical attempt by Mr. Trudeau to cash in on his legal troubles with the federal government.”

Last year, Trudeau agreed to pay $2 million and to stop marketing “coral calcium” as a cure for cancer to settle a lawsuit brought by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission (“FTC”). The FTC sued Trudeau largely on the grounds that Trudeau could not substantiate his advertising claim that coral calcium can cure and prevent cancer. It is one of at least 10 products that Trudeau has sold or promoted before the government has leveled fraud charges.

In addition, Trudeau pleaded guilty in 1990 to larceny in a Cambridge, Mass., state court after being charged with depositing $80,000 in worthless checks. The following year, he also pleaded guilty to credit-card fraud in federal district court in Boston, resulting in prison term of nearly two years. The federal charges involved the use of credit-card numbers from customers of a memory-improvement course Trudeau was promoting at that time.

“Trudeau cannot hide behind his frequent claims that this book simply contains his opinions and that the government is trying to censor him,” said Chairperson Santiago. “Throughout the book, Trudeau tries to fool readers into thinking he knows the cure for specific diseases when all Trudeau really offers are different theories on what causes an illness or a disease.”

Another example, she said, is Trudeau’s June 2005 newsletter which carries the headline: “The Natural Way to Cure Cancer.” In that newsletter, Trudeau wrote, “The cure for cancer is: simply stop doing the things that are causing the cancer!”

“It’s like the old joke where a patient complains to a doctor that it hurt to lift his arm and the doctor says, ‘Then don’t lift your arm,’” said Chairperson Santiago. “Trudeau even has the nerve to tell that joke in his book – not once, but three times.”

Among Trudeau’s recommendations and ‘opinions’ are:


* Breast milk has been poisoned by exhaust fumes from jets (p. 80)

* People should not use antiperspirant or deodorant (page 135);

* “All tap water is poisonous” (page 144)

* Microwave cooking poisons food --and causes cancer (page 145)

* Baby food is “poisonous;” (page 145); * “Vaccines are some of the most toxic things you can put into your body” (page 131. Despite that statement, Trudeau’s newsletter praises Jonas Salk and his vaccine for curing polio);

* Avoid hot tubs, saunas and swimming pools (page 155);

* Wear white (“The closer you get to white, the more positive energy you bring into your energetic field.” Page 167)

* Driving in traffic causes stress and stress causes cancer;

* Sunscreens cause cancer (page 152);

* Eat only organic food and “do not eat any food produced or sold by a publicly traded (page 142); and,

* Don’t take prescription or non-prescription drugs (This recommendation is cited throughout the book. Trudeau’s website, however, recommends that drugs be used to cure TB and Parkinson’s. In one commercial, Trudeau concedes that drugs and surgery are necessary when an illness is too advanced.)

“He pushes all of these ideas and dozens more; claiming some combination of ‘natural’ remedies will cure virtually any disease. It’s preposterous,” said Chairperson Santiago.

“When readers are expecting answers and details in his book, Mr. Trudeau either claims the government is censoring him or he ‘encourages’ his readers buy his newsletters or the books he sells on his website,” Chairperson Santiago said. “It’s an outrage.”

Near the end of his book, Trudeau concedes that readers might want to know why and how he can make these recommendations. He writes that his recommendations and opinions come from “more than 900 studies.” But, he writes, he’s not yet ready to say what those studies were, what they allegedly found, or where they took place.

In his television commercials and throughout his book, Trudeau claims he does not profit from the products and information in his book. Only near the end of the book does Trudeau concede that he does profit from the books sold on his website.



<hr /></blockquote>


Buy the book!!!
[ QUOTE ]
* Wear white (“The closer you get to white, the more positive energy you bring into your energetic field.” Page 167)
<hr /></blockquote> HaHaHaHaHaHaHa.
No thanks, I use proper toillet paper.
Qtec

wolfdancer
08-25-2005, 11:37 AM
Q, thanks for posting that...wonder if Mr. Walker has a rebuttal for that?

warpedshaft
08-26-2005, 09:11 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9006287/

Best-seller ‘Natural Cures’ sparks court battle
Consumer agency cries ‘fraud’; infomercial king cries ‘First Amendment’

Gerald Bates thought he found the answer to a prayer. The 69-year-old Clyde N.Y., resident has Type II diabetes, and he's concerned about taking insulin injections. But one night in late June, he tuned into a breathtaking infomercial hosted by Kevin Trudeau — “Natural Cures 'They' Don’t Want You to Know About.”

Trudeau, a long-time infomercial master with a preacher's flair for the camera, urged viewers to buy his "Natural Cures" book. In it, Bates understood, readers would find simple, all-natural remedies for terrible conditions like cancer, diabetes, even weight gain.

"I was skeptical. But I thought, 'He pitches a good story,'" Bates said. So Bates paid $39.90 for the book.

Bates is hardly alone. Trudeau's infomercial has helped turn his tome into the top-ranked book on the New York Times self-help Best Seller list. The author says over 4 million copies have been sold. A mountain of the books sit on a table at the entrance of the Barnes &amp; Noble on New York's Fifth Avenue, right next to the Harry Potter mountain. Television infomercials hawking the book are by one measure the most aired long-form ad on TV.

But Bates, and other consumers, now say they were had. There are hundreds of angry posts on Amazon.com's page devoted to "Natural Cures." And about a dozen New York consumers have now contacted the New York State Consumer Protection Board.

"The book is just gobbledygook. There's nothing in it. He doesn't say what the cures are," Bates said. Instead, Bates said, on page after page the book urges readers to head to Trudeau's Web site, NaturalCures.com. Consumers must pay $10 a month to use the site. And for those calling the toll free number to purchase the book, operators work hard to tack on a Web site subscription. "Something should be done to pull that ad off TV."

Agency calls book a 'fraud'
That's a step being considered by the New York State Consumer Protection Board, which issued a scathing press release about the book Aug. 5, calling the infomercial "misleading" and the book a "fraud." Agency Chairperson Teresa A. Santiago said she might call on cable channels to drop the ads.

But Trudeau has filed a pre-emptive strike in federal court to keep his ads on the air. Last week, his lawyers filed a complaint in the Northern District of New York asking a judge to bar the state agency from making any requests to dump Trudeau's ads.

It's a question of First Amendment rights, Trudeau's lawyer, David J. Bradford, said. Government agencies can't limit a person's right to sell a book, he said.

"We are not aware of a government agency trying to interfere with advertisement or sale of a book. It's unprecedented from that standpoint," Bradford said. "You just can't interfere with somebody's expression of opinion."

Opinion is one thing, says Santiago, but misleading advertising is another. "This is not a matter of ‘free speech’ as Mr. Trudeau claims. If you advertise the contents of a book, it had better contain what has been promised," Santiago said. "When you are doing an infomercial and you say you have the cure for diabetes and you go to the book and there's no cure for diabetes, that's an issue."

FTC has reviewed infomercials
Trudeau is no stranger to the courtroom. He's a convicted felon. In 1991 he pled guilty to credit card fraud — and has a long past of legal run-ins with federal regulators. In fact, he's barred from selling products on television now, as part of a 2004 settlement with the Federal Trade Commission over allegations involving misleading statements surrounding health care products. Trudeau admitted no wrongdoing but agreed to stop selling health care products.

But the agreement doesn't prevent him from selling books.

In Trudeau's complaint against the New York Consumer Board, his lawyers say that both the book and the infomercials have been "reviewed" by the Federal Trade Commission for compliance with the 2004 settlement terms.

"(The FTC) has not objected to the dissemination of either the book or the infomercials," the complaint says.

FTC attorney Heather Hippsley said the agency reviewed the book and early versions of the infomercials hawking the book and found them in compliance with the settlement. But she said Trudeau has multiple versions of the ad, and the agency has not reviewed them all.

Bradford maintained that all five versions of the infomercial have been sent to the FTC.

Meanwhile, Trudeau has sued the FTC, alleging that the agency defamed him when it issued a press release that he says incorrectly characterized his 2004 settlement with the agency.

Hippsley said she couldn't comment on the book, other than to say the agency was "monitoring" to make sure Trudeau complied with the settlement.

Despite Trudeau's history of run-ins with the agency, she said it could not ban him from producing infomercials for his book.

"To ban advertising for fully protected speech would be quite extraordinary and not something you'd want your government to be doing," she said.

Still, Delois Scurry, a 48-year-old Rochester, N.Y.-area resident, said she wished someone had banned the ad before she saw it. Scurry suffers from high blood pressure and diabetes, so she ordered the book a few months ago hoping it contained information that would help reduce her reliance on blood pressure medication.

"There was nothing in it that he had talked about from the infomercial. He said there were cures. There was nothing like that in there ... it was just money down the drain," she said. "It is a big rip-off for him to go on national TV and come out and say there's a cure for cancer."

'Endorsement' from dead FDA official
The New York state board published a litany of similar complaints about the book in its press release. But agency officials agree Trudeau has the right to write whatever he wants in a book. Legally, the agency is attacking what it calls unfair advertising.

But for each complaint, Trudeau's lawyers offer an answer.

For example, the agency cites what it calls a book jacket endorsement from Dr. Herbert Ley, a former commissioner of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. But, the agency notes, Ley could not have endorsed or even read Trudeau’s book because he died in 2001 — about three years before the book's release.

Bradford said the quote on the back of the book jacket was not meant to indicate Ley endorsed the book. "I don't think it's fair to say that's an endorsement of the book," he said. "There's no suggestion that this individual read the book or endorsed the book."

In one of the infomercials, Trudeau tells Tammy Faye Bakker Messner — former wife of televangelist Jim Bakker — that the book includes the method Trudeau used to quit smoking. But in the book, argues the Consumer Protection Board, Trudeau simply points people to the Web site: “If you want to know the exact method that I used to quit smoking, go to www.naturalcures.com (http://www.naturalcures.com) and become a private member."

Bradford said the book contains general comments about cures for addictions, which would include smoking addictions.

But are there cures in the book?
But the agency's chief complaint is that the book contains no cures for conditions like diabetes, as promised by the infomercial.

Bradford sternly objects to that claim. In a letter sent to the New York state board Aug. 8, Bradford argues that a diabetes cure is included in the text, referencing mention of a combination of herbs that treat diabetes recommended by Dr. Yung Su Kim, "a Korean living in Canada."

Internet discussion boards attempting to find Dr. Yung Su Kim's herbal combination point viewers to a Web page called TheTruthAboutDiabetes.info, where readers learn about a "traditional Chinese formula" called Six Flavor Tea, recommended by a Dr. Youngsoo Kim.

Bradford said he was confused by the assertion that the book contained no cures.

"This is a very misleading issue for them to raise," Bradford said. "The book has a whole chapter, chapter 6, devoted to identifying cures. There's a chart in it that identifies 50 diseases and gives a natural cure for each of them. To say it doesn't have information about cures indicates somebody hasn't read the book."

Government unnerved by book, Trudeau's lawyer says
More fundamentally, Bradford argues that Trudeau doesn't promise to provide a "magic pill" for disease in the book.

"It is important to know that people who are looking for a specific cure for a specific disease are missing the point of this book. A disease is simply a label put on a series of symptoms ... this is one of the things that medical science does not want you to know or understand," he said. He goes on to say that such labels help the pharmaceutical industry earn billions. "That topic has obviously struck a chord with millions of people."

The board's complaints arise because government agencies are irritated by the book's accusations that they are cooperating with pharmaceutical companies to ensure big profits, Bradford said.

"I don't really understand why there's this critical focus on the book when there are very few consumers who are complaining about the book," Bradford said. "(The book) really does challenge a paradigm. People who are picking on this line out of the book, or that line, are really ignoring why this book is so successful and the real message."

But Bates, the dissatisfied consumer, said he thinks Trudeau's message is not only useless, but it could be risky for some.

"It's not truthful and it's dangerous to some people," he said. "People might read it and quit taking their medications."

And Scurry thinks Trudeau is simply taking advantage of people who are desperate to find some light at the end of their unhealthy tunnels.

"He's preying on people's feelings and hopes that there is something that's out there that can cure a certain disease or sickness," she said. "And there isn't."

A New York federal court is expected to hear the Trudeau case Aug. 30.

© 2005 MSNBC Interactive


Let's see if this ex-con lives up to his word...

Vagabond
08-27-2005, 03:09 PM
Mr.Trudeux can do what he chooses.Those names such as `world championships,international championships` and so on
are not registered trade marks.Why shoud Mr.Trudeaux give a rat`s ass for all those things mentioned by Mr.Ian Anderson.Mr.Trudeaux is NOT Obligated morally or legally to anybody and DOES NOT have to please any Parasites of the pool.He is throwing his money to promote pool.He broke no law. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif