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Sid_Vicious
08-26-2005, 10:02 AM
I've wrestled against these concepte for the most part and at the same time had constant nagging internally that nice guys finish last, BUT to me I find the things below to be well on target so I thought I'd seek the thoughts from y'll here with this post. The source is of course selling a book and had 10 things, the last being to seek help, yea his book, BUT these concepts were still well implanted it seems in real life. The catch22 thing I get from all of it is that psychology teachings says to "be yourself in all you do", and to me, this is a killer to guys who were raise to absolutely be "their real selfs" in a relationship. Oh well, just me maybe, and not all of these things I found as enlightening, but the nice, sharing their thoughts type guys were a key I personally associated with. Thoughts????sid~~~guesses he needs to be more of an a$$ to survive the game


.The Ten Most Dangerous
Mistakes YOU Probably
Make With Women.
And What To Do About It....

Here Are The Top Ten Reasons Why Men Fail With Women.And How To Make Sure YOU Avoid Every One Of These Deadly Common Mistakes...

MISTAKE #1: Being
Too Much Of A .Nice Guy.

Have you ever noticed that the really attractive women never seem to be attracted "nice" guys?

Of course you have.

Just like me, I'm sure you've had attractive female friends that always seemed to date "jerks"... but for some reason they were never romantically interested in YOU.

What's going on here?

It's actually very simple...

Women don't base their choices of men on how "nice" a guy is. They choose the men they do because they feel a powerful GUT LEVEL ATTRACTION for them.

And guess what?

Being nice doesn't make a woman FEEL that powerful ATTRACTION.

And being NICE doesn't make a woman CHOOSE you.

I realize that this doesn't make a lot of logical sense, and it's hard to ACCEPT... but GET OVER IT.

Until you accept this FACT and begin to act on it, you'll NEVER have the success with women that you want.

MISTAKE #2: Trying To
.Convince Her To Like You.

What do most guys do when they meet a woman that they REALLY like... but she's just notinterested?

Right! They try to "convince" the woman to feel differently.

Well, I have news for you... YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE HOW A WOMAN "FEELS" WHEN IT COMES TO ATTRACTION!

Never, ever, EVER.

You cannot CONVINCE a woman to feel differently about you with "logic and reasoning".

Think about it.

If a woman doesn't "feel it" for you, how in the world do you expect to change that FEELING by being "reasonable" with her?

But we all do it.

When a woman just isn't interested, we beg, plead, chase, and do our best to change her mind.

Bad idea. One that will never work.

MISTAKE #3: Looking To Her
For Approval Or Permission

In our desire to please women (which we mistakenly think will make them like us), us guys are always doing things to get a woman's "approval" or "permission".

Another HORRIBLE idea.

Women are NEVER attracted to the types of men who kiss up to them... EVER.

Don't get me wrong here.

You don't have to treat women BADLY for them to like you.

But if you think that treating a woman well means "always getting her approval and permission for things", think again.

You will never succeed by looking for approval. Women actually get ANNOYED at men who seek their approval.

Doubt me? Just ask any attractive woman if Wussy guys who chase her around and want her approval annoy her...

MISTAKE #4: Trying To .Buy. Her Affection With Food And Gifts

How many times have you taken a woman out to a nice dinner, bought her gifts and flowers, and had her REJECT you for someone who didn't treat her even HALF as well as you did?

If you're like me, then you've had it happen a LOT.

Well guess what?

It's only NATURAL when this happens...

That's right, I said NATURAL.

When you do these things, you send a clear message:

"I don't think you'll like me for who I am, so I'm going to try to buy your attention and affection".

Your good intentions usually come across to women as over-compensation for insecurity, and weak attempts at manipulation. That's right, I said that women see this as MANIPULATION.
MISTAKE #5: Sharing
.How You Feel. Too Early In
The Relationship With Her

Another huge and unfortunate mistake that most men make with women is sharing how they "feel" too early on.

Attractive women are rare.

And they get a LOT of attention from men.

Most men don't realize this, but attractive women are being approached in one way or another ALL THE TIME.

An attractive woman is often approached several times a DAY by men who are interested. This translate into dozens of times per week, and often HUNDREDS of times per month.

And guess what?

Attractive women have usually dated a LOT of men.

That's right. They have EXPERIENCE.

They know what to expect.

And one thing that turns an attractive women off and sends her running away faster than just about anything is a guy who starts saying "You know, I really, REALLY like you" after one or two dates.

This signals to the woman that you're just like all the other guys who fall for her too fast... and can't control themselves.

Don't do it. Lean back. Relax.

There's a much better way...

MISTAKE #6: Not .Getting. How Attraction Works For Women

Women are VERY different from men when it comes to ATTRACTION.

You need to accept this fact, and deal with it.

When a man sees a beautiful, young, sexy woman, he INSTANTLY feels a sexual attraction.

But does the same apply for women?

Do women feel sexual attraction to men based mostly on looks? Or is something else going on?

Well, after studying this topic for over five full years now, I can tell you that women usually have their "attraction mechanisms" triggered by things OTHER than looks.

Have you ever noticed that you see a lot more average and unattractive men with beautiful women than the other way around?

Think about it.

Women are more attracted to certain qualities in men... and they're attracted to the way a man makes them FEEL than they are to looks alone.

If you know how to use your body language and communication correctly, you can make women feel the same kind of powerful sexual attraction to you that YOU feel when you see a hot, sexy young woman.

But it's not an accident. You have to LEARN how to do this.

And ANY guy can learn how...

MISTAKE #7: Thinking That It
Takes Money And Looks

One of the most common mistakes that guys make is giving up before they've even gotten started... because they think that attractive women are only interested in men who have looks and money... or guys who are a certain height... or guys who are a certain age.

And sure, there are some women who are only interested in these things.

But MOST women are far more interested in a man's personality than his wallet or his looks.

There are personality traits that attract women like a magnet...

And if you learn what they are and how to use them, YOU can be one of these guys.

YOU DO NOT have to "settle" for a woman just because you aren't rich, tall, or handsome.

Let me say this again: If you know how to use your body language and communication correctly, you can make women feel the same kind of powerful sexual attraction to you that YOU feel when you see a hot, sexy young woman.

MISTAKE #8: Giving Away
All Of Your Power To Women

Earlier I mentioned that it's a mistake to look to a woman for approval or permission.

Well, another similar tactic that a lot of guys use is GIVING AWAY THEIR POWER to women.

Said differently, guys try to get women to like them by doing whatever the woman wants.

Another bad idea...

Women are NEVER attracted to men that they can walk all over... Women aren't attracted to Wussies!

MISTAKE #9: Not Knowing
EXACTLY What To Do In Each
Type Of Situation With Women

Now I'm going to blow your mind...

A woman ALWAYS knows what you're thinking.

Women are approximately TEN TIMES better than men at reading body language. That's ten TIMES.

I know, it might be hard to believe. But for example, if you're out on a date with a woman, and you want to kiss her, she knows it.

And if you don't know exactly what to do and exactly HOW to kiss her, and you just sit there looking at her and getting nervous, she won't help!

And this goes for ALL aspects of women and dating...

Approaching a woman, getting her number, asking her out, kissing her, getting physical... everything.

If you don't know what to do in each situation, you will probably screw it up... and LOSE EVERYTHING.

And you KNOW it.

It is VITALLY important that you know EXACTLY how to go from one step to the next with a woman... from the first meeting, all the way to the bedroom.

Drop1
08-26-2005, 07:06 PM
It has been said,"class is knowing when,and knowing how." I told my son,if he couldn't score by the third date,find another girl,and guess what...he goes tells my wife about my fatherly advice. I think that advice still holds. If your not making it by the third date,your dating the wrong women. The truth is everyone scores:even nice guys. Only they don't score as often. The right time,right place,right person,and sex is a given. Sorry I'm not politcaly correct,
but what I say is true. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

SPetty
08-26-2005, 07:58 PM
Holy Cow! Talk about playing games...

Stretch
08-27-2005, 05:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> Holy Cow! Talk about playing games... <hr /></blockquote>

Woman play far more games than men do. Men are pretty easy to figure out. Woman on the other hand.....forget about it. All bets are off. I just try and have fun, be real, and let the chips fall where they may.

Why do Men chase Woman they have no intention of Marrying? Sex, stupidity. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.

Sid_Vicious
08-27-2005, 08:09 AM
"Woman play far more games than men do. Men are pretty easy to figure out."

Kinda makes us the weaker sex in relationships if the guys choose to just be themselves without considering gaming in any way. Is this some cavemanwo(man) gene or has society/women's financial independence in the work force created this battle between the sexes? I wouldn't have a woman in my life whom I expected to cow-tow to me due to the fact she wasn't with her own checkbook, but at the same time it seems that with the "woman of the 90's" came increased division between the sexes, hence some required new tactics from men with the genuine attribute of simply being purely upfront. It impressed me in reading the bullets that so many of the points hit home, and in reflections with friends I've known who were extremely hungry for the inate affection we are all born to seek from birth, we men have become crippled when it comes to just being natural. If being natural happens to have facets of being a mystery, that works better,,,don't like it but can it be argued that it isn't true?!. If being natural does not include an ongoing analysis of "the game", simply has fluid outpourings of "me, an easy to predict guy", you'll be upstaged by the guys with a line, half truths and self generated uncertainties.

Nothing and I mean NOTHING feels as good as being just yourself in a relationship. How realistic and possible is it in today's world though? My conclusion is that you either adapt and play, or you accept a life within your own little world and hope and pray God drops a special angel in front of you. No I am not a game player, but should I &amp; the openly honest men of the world become players to some level? This the meat of the subject opened up here, not meant to be a contraversial He-She right or wrong discussion. If the single guys here looking for a relationship don't relate to any of these bullets, then I'd like to hear their opinions and become better informed. On the other hand is it best to conform to the phrase, "For things to change, you must change", and intentionally hold yourself back from just being the "real you?" sid~~~wonders when did the definition of wussy = honest openess???

Stretch
08-27-2005, 11:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> "Woman play far more games than men do. Men are pretty easy to figure out."

Kinda makes us the weaker sex in relationships if the guys choose to just be themselves without considering gaming in any way. Is this some cavemanwo(man) gene or has society/women's financial independence in the work force created this battle between the sexes? I wouldn't have a woman in my life whom I expected to cow-tow to me due to the fact she wasn't with her own checkbook, but at the same time it seems that with the "woman of the 90's" came increased division between the sexes, hence some required new tactics from men with the genuine attribute of simply being purely upfront. It impressed me in reading the bullets that so many of the points hit home, and in reflections with friends I've known who were extremely hungry for the inate affection we are all born to seek from birth, we men have become crippled when it comes to just being natural. If being natural happens to have facets of being a mystery, that works better,,,don't like it but can it be argued that it isn't true?!. If being natural does not include an ongoing analysis of "the game", simply has fluid outpourings of "me, an easy to predict guy", you'll be upstaged by the guys with a line, half truths and self generated uncertainties.

Nothing and I mean NOTHING feels as good as being just yourself in a relationship. How realistic and possible is it in today's world though? My conclusion is that you either adapt and play, or you accept a life within your own little world and hope and pray God drops a special angel in front of you. No I am not a game player, but should I &amp; the openly honest men of the world become players to some level? This the meat of the subject opened up here, not meant to be a contraversial He-She right or wrong discussion. If the single guys here looking for a relationship don't relate to any of these bullets, then I'd like to hear their opinions and become better informed. On the other hand is it best to conform to the phrase, "For things to change, you must change", and intentionally hold yourself back from just being the "real you?" sid~~~wonders when did the definition of wussy = honest openess??? <hr /></blockquote>

Um Sid, God aint goin to drop a special angel in front of ya. You have to get out there. In this day and age with computors, and stuff dateing and meeting woman is a whole Cottage industry. But person to person contact is the clincher. I know in the first 30 seconds if there is chemistry there.

But of course i did it all backwards. My first contact with who is now my fiance' was on the phone (local call haha). But i new it in her voice. I justify that incident now by concluding, if i got to listen to this persons voice for the rest of my life, there has to be someting in it that i love. Luckily she felt the same about me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif But u gotta get out there, the basic principal of dateing is that it's a numbers game. Your not going to click with everyone, that's life. But when u do!..........St.

Gayle in MD
08-30-2005, 05:58 AM
OMG, I hope all dad's aren't telling their sons advice like that! How shallow! I suppose your son will now look at all women as just an opportunity to get laid, right? THREE DATES! Nothing like teaching your son that the only thing a girl has to offer, is a good roll in the hay. I think you just set him up to drop every well adjusted young woman like a hot cake, and go for the ones that jump in and out of bed with every guy who comes down the pike. I sure hope he doesn't listen to this BS.
You talk about class? LMAO!

Gayle in Md.

Drop1
08-30-2005, 07:09 PM
If their Dads are not telling some thing of that nature,their friends are. The fist attraction for a man is physical apperance,and thats a fact. And its a fact men date women they want to bed. If it wasn't for sex,men wouldn't have a reason to talk to women,and visa versa. It might not be what people want to hear. Women need a reason men just need a place... I could care less about a persons sexual orientation. If they are into a realtonship,it is either sexual,or joking. I also told my son not to date ugly girls. He married a well adjusted young girl,and I have two beautiful grand daughters. I'm gonna tell them sex is not dirty,but they will know that any way.Sorry bout your bubble.

Gayle in MD
08-31-2005, 04:09 AM
OIC, a womans only value is that she is a vessel for a man's penis, and if not for that, she wouldn't even be worthy of conversation? I'd love to talk to your daughter-in-law.
Just because people are discriminating, doesn't necessarily mean they think that sex is dirty. On the contrary, when one places a healthy value on sexuality, it is special, and certainly not to be shared with someone after only three dates. A well adjusted girl/woman who has a healthy sense of self esteem, will want to know much more about a man than one can learn in only three dates before she shares such an important experience. We're not animals, and although this may come as a shock to you, the world does not revolve around a penis.

Gayle in Md.

Sid_Vicious
08-31-2005, 06:02 AM
I never meant this topic to become a platform for the importance factor of sex but since it has I thought I'd jump back in. It all depends on the individual, and one partner for instance may see sex as a 60/40 value in a relationship, that person will be frustrated and eventually end a relationship once sex becomes a battle to fight for instead of the free, liberating emotion a good sexual encounter gives. That relationship will be destroyed in time, and bad times I might add. it all comes down to the two individuals and if the relationship begins with an unstated(or stated) understanding that intimacy is a driving force which has bonded the two, one partner pulling back ain't going to do nuthin but cause the beginning of the end. I would have to agree in part that there would be an item on my mental checklist concerning the time it took for a new relationship to give it up, don't know if 3 dates is the magic number, but my point is that if I am geared to find love in the bedroom as the higher fractional factor "for me", then it would be useless to take a lot of time with that person.

My initial post of the nice guy syndrome actually lends weight to this turn in the conversation. Nice guys will hang on in wait for the prize whereas the more cagey, mysterious and less honest guys will get it sooner, and IF SEX IS THAT IMPORTANT to them, either one of the sexes, man or woman, then it should be sorted out between the two in a reletively short period of time. If we have to play a game of cat and hounddog about it, we've just proven my nice guy being last, cuz "Mr. Polite" will almost always fall dead last if he doesn't learn the gameing skills, he'll be boring to the lady, not a challenge, dull. I don't like it at all, but it is what it is IMO.

It all comes down to what makes you feel loved. If you can't find compatability and satisfaction, no matter if it is in sex or getting expensive gifts or something as simple as merely talking, you are doomed. It would only be the most honest approach to admit your own personal needs, then move on if that primary need isn't for the most part in tandem with the other person. You will know that quickly, but it is the lonliness factor which keeps weaker people in hope. A benchmark for finding out your answers to that primary need seems to me to be very important(maybe Sid is learning a new skill in "the game"). You'll save self-esteem and embarrassment, and in the long run actually be a lot more fair to both people to cease and move on to the next....sid

Drop1
08-31-2005, 03:53 PM
At a certain age a penis does rule the world,and women are sex objects for most men. If there is another option let me know. I don't think sex is dirty. I can honestly say that I could be one hundred percent wrong,and men and women think exactly the same regarding sex,and that is why there are so many magazines of nude men for women to look at,and so many women getting off on porn. My daughter inlay would agree with you on every point you made. She is well adjusted,judgemental,and has never been a man,and does not think like one,and she is very bright. But that does not change anything about how men look at women. Men don't like hanging around ugly women. Why is that? Think about it,I'm going to shoot pool,with some happy sluts,and most men would like to join me. You and my daughter-in-law would get along famously.

Gayle in MD
08-31-2005, 06:07 PM
Relationships are very complex things, with many currents in the tide. When all is said and done, it is respect which bonds two people together, and it is respect which fuels all aspects of a relationship, including sex. Not only respect for the one you love, but respect for yourself. Respect for yourself, requires that you be authentic, with yourself, and with others. If you pretend to be other than you are, then you are an illusion, and no one can truly love an illusion, it does not truly exist. If you can't be yourself, what's the point of being anyone else?

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
08-31-2005, 06:22 PM
There is no other option, for men like you....fortunately, you can't speak for all men, although you profess to.

Why do you continue to bring up the word, "Dirty?"

Beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder.

Gayle in Md.

Drop1
08-31-2005, 08:45 PM
Go back and look at where the word dirty first appears. Its your word not mine. I don't speak for all men,and you don't speak for all women. Your idea of healthy is no less or more valid than mine. You said I see a woman as a recepticle for a mans penis. And your right thats what nature designed it to be. How else are they going to have babies? In my eyes, a womans ass can be beautiful. Its in the eyes of the beholder. Not to drag this on for ever,but do you really think between men and women,there is no difference in attitude when it comes to what turns them on?

Gayle in MD
09-01-2005, 06:41 AM
NO, you go back and look, you brought that word up, not I. Furthermore, I find your view of women to be chauvinistic and ignorant. I have many many male friends, they are men who respect women as equals. Men who certainly don't look at women as good for nothing except a piece of ass, but rather find them interesting, intelligent and valuable to their lives for many reasons. They relish the differences in men and women, and see the value in the way that those differences expand their experience of life. My personal views about sexuality are not gender specific, unlike yours.
A slut is a slut, IMO, and can be male or female.

Gayle in Md.

Drop1
09-01-2005, 10:50 AM
Your are right. I did use the word dirty,when I wrote, I would tell my grand daughters sex is not dirty. I'm sure a lot of women would agree with your opinions of me,and even some men. I have no proplem with that. You have a need to be right,so I will make your day,you are so right about every thing,and I'm wrong about every thing.Happy?

Gayle in MD
09-01-2005, 11:11 AM
You can think whatever you like, tell your kids whatever you like, and say whatever you like about me, but if you're going to get on an internet forum and degrade women as you have in your posts in this thread, you can expect me to defend them, and attempt to shine a light on what can only be interpreted as degrading, chauvinistic comments. From the start, you insisted that you spoke for all men, I dare say, the men I have had the pleasure of knowing in my own life, do not think as you do about women, or sex, thank heaven. Being right is not the issue, the issue, I'm sure, would be lost, on one such as you.

Regards to you "Daughter-in-Lay"

Gayle in Md.

Sid_Vicious
09-01-2005, 11:34 AM
The answer/problem lies in the point made here that it is a "battle" between the genders of the issue of each other's sexual agreements. It is a power thing in so many cases that's it has eroded relational bonds(imo.) Someone should find the census numbers for the numbers of single baby boomers these days. I bet that we are now seeing more irreconcilable differences between men and women than ever before, and the fact may very well be for a major part right here with this "battle" of power, yes power. Sad thing I feel is that once the battle begins with a couple, that the relationship has really on it's way out from then on. Love, respect, honor, intimacy...all become jaded with logic and bargaining, which was not what was felt during the bonding period. It is not a contract of love anymore, at least not the unselfish love. That's gone. It is my opinion that as bad as it sounds, one of the partners has to be dominant toward the other. It could be the man or the woman, but one will in most long lasting relationships. In conclusion, if we have to bargain and discuss our bedroom encounters, it is too late. It would a dying relationship for me, but maybe that is my problem in this game of life. If it isn't free and easy for the most part, like it was during the bonding time of that relationship, it won't last the test of time...sid

Drop1
09-01-2005, 05:56 PM
Class will out. Nice touch the daughter-in-lay. Truth is, I don't think about you. A forum is a place to express opinions. Some thing one such as you would not understand. I have made no comments about anyone in your family. I have said what I think. I could care less what you think.

ARJ
09-08-2005, 06:51 PM
I finally gave up. I said I am who I am and I will not change. I'm good enough for any woman if I want them and if they don't want me then fine, no biggie. Almost as soon as I said that I met a nice, pretty, intellegent girl and things are moving in a relaxing, wonderful direction. I did not give up my poker night, I did not give up my pool night because those are parts of me that she has to accept and she has. This is also the first woman I've never tried to impress and quite frankly don't intend to. I just want to be a nice guy and a good boyfriend.

AR J~~~~one of the ultimate nice guys and a non-player

tateuts
09-08-2005, 09:14 PM
Women want men who are not only real men, but real people. Think about it. I know that's the kind of woman I want.

As far as attraction goes, it's almost universal. 90% of the women are gunning for 10% of the guys, and vice- versa. If you're not in that 10%, there's a lot of stuff you can do to make yourself more attractive.

Tell you what - as far as I'm concerned you may as well go ahead and beg for it. If you can make them laugh, even better. Try crying. Then say "please, just let me give you one hickey". I found more often than not, it works just fine. Always worked for me.

Chris

Brian in VA
09-09-2005, 05:20 AM
Congratulations ARJ! And that's why you're finally happy because you've decided to be yourself, comfortable with yourself and true to yourself. You've found someone who is the same about herself, accepts you for you and the two of you make a great relationship. That is also how I'd describe my marriage and my relationship with my bride.

Brian in VA

onepocketfanatic
09-11-2005, 01:02 AM
Hell, I am a very nice guy, and I have had way more than my share of really nice women over the years.
I treat others as I myself would like to be treated (that includes men, women, and kids), and find that when you treat other people with respect, you get the same in kind.
One lesson I learned very early is don't try to impress a woman by being something you are not, because eventually you are going to revert back to the real you. They are not going to understand when at first you are there all the time, doint all of these thing to try and impress her, and later you wanna go out with the boys, shoot pool, and so on (things that you did not do at the beginning of the relationship). Be who you are all of the time, and if that doesn't work, she wasn't for you to begin with.

Sid_Vicious
09-11-2005, 06:44 AM
OPC...Both women and men for the most part act different in the beginning, but women are known for it more(IMO.) As the old saying goes, "men marry women hoping they will never change, and women marry men figuring to change them." Can you honestly say this isn't normal protocol in most cases? I've had women who even went to the PH with me in the beginning, and then they blew up about it months later, like they'd been hating it all along.

In today's world the nice, upfront guys just seem to stay on the sideline for dating. I can't count the number of friends I have on both hands and feet who stay in mothballs while the snakes keep getting the honeys, and some of these guys are downright ugly! sid