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JPB
08-26-2005, 01:14 PM
This is not an elbow drop/pendulum debate post. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Also not just a post on drills to improve stroke, because I have received some good instruction that helped (Yes, from S. Lee) and have worked on stroke drills for a while. So I am looking for a more specific, technical answer than just going to do more drills, but an answer that talks about incorporating a drill to fix the flaw is welcomed. Yes, the drills have helped and I have improved. But the drills have also shown a flaw, and I wonder if there is something I am missing to fix it. Here is the flaw.

On those occasions where I miss centerball, I tend to miss with left english. My bad strokes tend to hit all on the left side of the cueball. Video has shown me a tendency to take my arm outside - to my right - at least on practice strokes sometimes. But I don't notice this on unintentional bad strokes and often pay attention to not going outside right on the backstroke. But maybe I do. Any ideas where I may be going wrong. I don't do this every time, and I have improved, but I wonder if there is one thing, or a couple of things that can affect this. Kinda like ball flight in golf telling us certain possibilities. So what does unintentional left tell me? When I miss the ball doesn't come off the foot rail with right. Left left always left when it goes bad.

denoandrews
08-26-2005, 01:29 PM
If you have a pendulum and noticed that your stroke pushes slightly outward from your body thus creating a little left, it means that your back leg is situated too close to your grip hand, and the tendency is for the arm to "push" away from the body, much like in golf when you stand too close to the ball which can push the club away from the body spinning the ball to the left (or right if you are lefty). The opposite could happen if your back leg were too far from the stroke hand creating a tendency for the hand to draw in to the body making the tip go to the right.

If your stroke were perfect and you were still putting left on the ball, it would mean that your head is not in the correct position.

Despite the fact that you want to leave out the pendulum debate, please note that it is virtually impossible to have a perfectly straight stroke without one. That is not to say that one is better than the other (althoug it is). But it is altogether possible that your head and aim are perfect but the curve of your stroke makes the tip go slightly right. If this is the case, either aim a little to the right (not suggested) or fix your stroke (suggested).

Good luck,

Deno Andrews

JPB
08-26-2005, 01:38 PM
Thanks Deno. Good stuff. I was looking for exactly stuff like stance and head position. I think between the two it is more likely to be back foot. For a couple of reasons. But I will check both out. If it is head, what is the problem? Dominant eye position? Head cocked at a bad angle? I don't think I am perfectly consistent on head position and I experiment. I will check out stance and arm clearance tonight on the table.

P.S. I wanted to avoid the elbow drop thing because that has been debated pretty much to death around here and didn't want to let people off too easy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I am familiar with the pendulum ideas and have been taught that. Seems like left hits me no matter what I am doing, dropping, penduluming etc...

SPetty
08-26-2005, 08:19 PM
You might be a perfect candidate for Joe Tucker's new Third Eye aiming device, particularly if you think it might be a perception (head, eye) problem. It's a pretty cheap device to help straighten out your aim line perception.

Cane
08-26-2005, 09:07 PM
JPB, I think Deno's analysis is dead on... if it were me (hmmmm... has happened to me! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) here's what I'd do to fix it.

Set up the old "rock and fire" drill and start by adjusting your stance until you're hitting it perfect. If that doesn't work, adjust your head position until you're hitting it perfect. It will take a little trial and error to find the right position, but once you do, it should cure the problem of not hitting center ball.

Good luck,
Bob

denoandrews
08-26-2005, 10:21 PM
No problem. It doesn't sound like it is a head placement problem because I think you stated that the cue is not going in a straight line. In case it is, I will explain to you how to figure it all out.

I don't know if you are the type of player who puts his chin on the stick. This sort of setup is obviously good for head placement because there is an easy way to measure whether or not you have your head in the right area. If you don't have your chin right on the cue, as I suspect you probably don't (neither do I), you need some other sort of mechanism for which to test your head placement.

It is not important that the cue be under the chin. In fact, it doesn't matter much at all where the head is as you can learn to play with the cue anywhere. There are plenty of top players who place their cues in all sorts of strange positions under the eyes. What's important is that your head is always in the SAME position so that you can be consistent in your aiming.

This little bit of info is one of the first things I ever learned about billiards from my grandfather- If you are relaxed, your head will always be in the same place in relation to the body...what changes is that the cue stick is not placed consistently in the right or same position every time. Think about it, it's really true that the head has a natural position in relation to the rest of the body when down on a shot. Sure, you might have to turn your head slightly, but it is something that is already burned into your game. What you need to worry about is placing the cue in the right place, and that is where the stance comes into play. Good aiming and sighting is a result of repeatable stance and setup mechanics. Once you are down on a shot, you should never think of moving your head around. Keep the neck relaxed and make sure that you can place the cue properly every time. Master the mechanics of a straight stroke and you will have no choice but to be a gifter aimer.

Please let me know how it all works for you.

Deno Andrews

JPB
08-27-2005, 12:17 PM
Preliminary indications are that of a head placement problem. Last night I looked at stance and stroke crookedness. Didn't have a lot of time tho. This AM I started looking at head position and I think that's it. My setup may have doomed the stroke to hit the wrong place. More work is necessary. Thanks for all the responses. I may also get one of those 3d Eye devices as suggested. I have messed with head position for a while, so maybe that is it. I need to go hit some more balls.

nhp
08-27-2005, 06:23 PM
I'm willing to bet that either you are stroking to close to your body, or your bridge hand is not aligned properly with your stroking arm's natural straight path, or it could be both. I used to have the same EXACT problem as you, and what I mention above corrected it.

DickLeonard
08-27-2005, 10:59 PM
JPB I always suggest that players shoot down their kitchen or dining room table. Use the divide line, it will show you if your cue is veering off in one minute. ####

Voodoo Daddy
08-28-2005, 02:59 AM
Listen to ####, the Flaw Man...He knows /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DickLeonard
08-28-2005, 11:53 AM
Voodoo Daddy thank for the vote of confidence. I was in a hurry to get some sleep last night. Now I will explain how the stroke path works. If you have a weak grip the same as in golf you will cause a fade stroke path and if you have a strong grip you will have a hook stroke path.

If your knuckles form a diamond shape your in neutral, if your knuckles are to the left you have a strong grip and if your knuckles are to the right you have a weak grip.

The strong grip is the same as a door opening and closing
you will get back to the center of the cueball but with the fade grip you never get back to the center of the cueball.

Most of the oldtime great players because they started playing when they were very young and stroked sidearm they were accurate because the stroke path always got back to center ball. That is it for now.####

JPB
08-28-2005, 01:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Voodoo Daddy thank for the vote of confidence. I was in a hurry to get some sleep last night. Now I will explain how the stroke path works. If you have a weak grip the same as in golf you will cause a fade stroke path and if you have a strong grip you will have a hook stroke path.

If your knuckles form a diamond shape your in neutral, if your knuckles are to the left you have a strong grip and if your knuckles are to the right you have a weak grip.

The strong grip is the same as a door opening and closing
you will get back to the center of the cueball but with the fade grip you never get back to the center of the cueball.

Most of the oldtime great players because they started playing when they were very young and stroked sidearm they were accurate because the stroke path always got back to center ball. That is it for now.####

<hr /></blockquote>


not sure I understand the knuckle position idea. Right or left of what? I am not picturing it.

caedos
08-28-2005, 02:07 PM
I haven't seen anyone post anything more about video. If you use video again, make sure the camera is in line with the cue from the rear where you can see it (upward angle). Also get the profile angle again to see if you finish your stroke the same each time. Take a look at your setup to the line you want to stroke on, and then watch in regular and slow motion to see if it's delivered in a straight line. You will also be able to see grip hand motion that may change cue alignment, and whether or not the forearm shifts left to right or vice versa. As to head position... the short version is to see if you can get down like you are on a shot and put your cue on the line where the long-rail felt meets the hard rail-surface. If you can, it looks straight to you, and you appear to be stroking on that line; go to video, and maybe an Elephant Practice Ball (or any cue ball) where you can see the chalk mark strike point to see if you are hitting the ball where you think you are hitting. There's always going to be another drill or another way that someone will suggest you check. In the end, you may just have to find the compensating adjustment and go get your results. You have had some training, and maybe the next time Scott Lee is near you can seek his expert assistance since this is definitely something he does with regularity.

I know you've already been through most if not all of this. It's worth doing it again. If you are right-handed, unintentional left spin can be caused by an outward motorcyle throttle-type twisting, excessive thumb pressure on the side of the cue, an incorrect Finish position too far to the outside that the grip hand is headed toward at contact, or even some sideways adjusting or fidgeting during your setup. Many people are not cue-stick aware beyond the first few inches of the shaft of their cue, and the total length of the cue can be out of line from end-to-end. When this happens, there are any number of things that can happen that are undesireable -- especially if there is an increase in tension or peripheral body movements.

Good luck! Keep at it and I'm sure it will get taken care of, hopefully sooner rather than later!


Carl

DickLeonard
08-30-2005, 06:07 AM
Deno nice seeeing you back posting. How is the 3 cushion?####

stickman
08-30-2005, 08:57 PM
nhp, thanks! I experimented with my stance a little and moved my grip hand a little further away from my body. It turned out that it was the missing key that I was needing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

nhp
08-31-2005, 02:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> nhp, thanks! I experimented with my stance a little and moved my grip hand a little further away from my body. It turned out that it was the missing key that I was needing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Glad I could help. Another important thing to keep in mind is that if your forearm and wrist are not aligned with your bridge hand, it is impossible to stroke straight. On your forward stroke it will make you either push the cue to the right or to the left, making your tip go in the opposite direction. You will compensate for this is by moving your elbow to the side, twisting your wrist and/or twisting your shoulder, since your shoulder is a ball hinge and can move in almost all directions. Your elbow joint is like a door hinge so your forearm can only go straight. All of that extra movement of course will not be consistent so its best to fix that problem. The trick is to align your wrist/cue with that natural straight path of your elbow/forearm, and also to align your bridge hand to it. This is really hard to explain in words, I hope I'm making sense.

DickLeonard
09-03-2005, 07:41 AM
SPetty. I had a video of me that I watched a few days ago and it showed me that I was moving my head at impact. ####

denoandrews
09-06-2005, 08:18 PM
Hi Dick,
Sorry it took so long to respond. I didn't specify to have emailed responses and didn't see your post until today. The 3-cushion game is ok for not playing all that often. I did however manage to not make a fool out of myself against Ceulemans and Caudron in Mexico City a few weeks ago. I did practice for that event and was in pretty good shape. But overall, I am nowhere near where I used to be...but that's life when there isn't a living to be made at billiards...probably the same in the pool world.

Best regards,
Deno