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sneakypapi
09-03-2005, 10:19 AM
I was wondering what is the average price per hour rate for professional teaching? I understand that prices will differ depending on the player and maybe areas of the country. I am looking for a general estimate maybe 1 or 2 hours of time.

randyg
09-03-2005, 11:49 AM
What exactly are looking for in those two hours? What part of the country? Maybe we can help....randyg

sneakypapi
09-03-2005, 05:43 PM
Actually, I am located on the east coast and I am an intermediate level player. I wanted to get some input regarding my game and point out some flaws. I know a few hours here and there is not much but I did not want to break the bank at this point. I figure some pointers from a good instructor would help my game.

That is why I wanted to get a general rate of what instructors charge per hour.

randyg
09-04-2005, 06:47 AM
Very large area, the East Coast.

I will be in Charlotte, NC. this Oct conducting a Pool School. If you are anywhere near I will give you a free couple of hours in evaluation......SPF-randyg

cuechick
09-04-2005, 07:43 AM
I think you can expect to pay $30 an hour and up depending on the teacher. I think initially you need a couple of hours and then it just depends... have a friend that works with Rolando at Amsterdam Billiards and I believe he charges 50.00 an hour. I think Tony Robles charges round $75.
You will probably pay more for a ranked Pro than a certified BCA or local Open player but the quality of instruction has more to do with personality than playing ability.
Good luck...

recoveryjones
09-04-2005, 08:05 AM
The BCA has 4 levels of instructors. Recognized(or beginner),Certified,Advanced and Master.

Of course the guys like Randy G and Scott Lee are masters and charge more money, probably around $75(or more) per hour.In my opinion you get what you pay for and the money is probably well spent with a master instructor.

I want someone who can look at the way I align my stance and stroke and be able to tell me RIGHT AWAY what my flaws are.These masters can do that and NO time is wasted.

It is also important to me that the guy can play good pool himself.he doesn't have to be a super pro player, because that's not nessecary to be a good teacher, however, I want to see him be able to at least run a rack once in awhile.

What gets me is these "recognized teachers" (beginners) fresh out of BCA school, who can't run three friggin balls, think that they are worth $50 per hour.When they can't notice obvious flaws in your setup, then that's a real problem for sure.

In my opinion, I say you get what you pay for , so I'd go for the Master.The extra money you spend will all come back to you when you start winning your money matches and gambling games down the road.JMO, RJ

sneakypapi
09-05-2005, 12:36 AM
Actually, Randy I am in NY. Too bad you were not in the Northeast region, that was a very generous offer. I can say I have played with a BCA instructor at a local bar for some friendly games, but I do not know his level. I can say that I was able to keep up with him if not bet him a few racks. I would say the highest level would be the best for me. I need an instructor that can spot the flaws pretty fast because I know what areas I feel I am lacking.

Voodoo Daddy
09-05-2005, 03:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sneakypapi:</font><hr> Actually, Randy I am in NY. Too bad you were not in the Northeast region, that was a very generous offer. I can say I have played with a BCA instructor at a local bar for some friendly games, but I do not know his level. I can say that I was able to keep up with him if not bet him a few racks. I would say the highest level would be the best for me. I need an instructor that can spot the flaws pretty fast because I know what areas I feel I am lacking. <hr /></blockquote>

Your in NYC...go see Fran Crimi. She is a Master level instructor and I'm sure she can help you with your flaws. She is as sharp as they come, trust Voodoo!!

randyg
09-05-2005, 05:54 AM
Yes, visit with Fran Crimi. She can help...randyg

pooltchr
09-05-2005, 06:45 AM
RJ,
I would like to clear up a couple of points you made. Yes, there are different levels of instructors in the BCA program, but the levels aren't necessarily an indicator of the quality of instruction.
In order to move up through the levels, an instructor must do several things. One is they must work with a minimum number of students each year. Some instructors choose to work with just a few students, and may not reach the requirement for volume of students to be eligible to advance. Instructors must also travel to a master academy, and pay for the required class, as well as attent a seminar every two years at the BCA trade show in order to remain active. The expense for these requirements may be more than some instructors can or will pay. The annual membership dues to the BCA also increases with each higher level.

It is quite possible for an instructor with very high teaching skills to remain at the recognized level for several years. It would be a shame to rule out someone as an instructor simply because they are not certified at one of the higher levels. There are many fine recognized instructors out there. The ones who advance through the levels are usually teaching full time, or close to it, and have made a committment, not only to teaching, but to working through the various levels outlined by the BCA.

In short, the instructor rankings are not so much an indicator of teaching skill, but of the willingness of the instructor to work through the BCA Instructor program.

Steve

recoveryjones
09-05-2005, 08:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> RJ,
I would like to clear up a couple of points you made. Yes, there are different levels of instructors in the BCA program, but the levels aren't necessarily an indicator of the quality of instruction.
In order to move up through the levels, an instructor must do several things. One is they must work with a minimum number of students each year. Some instructors choose to work with just a few students, and may not reach the requirement for volume of students to be eligible to advance. Instructors must also travel to a master academy, and pay for the required class, as well as attent a seminar every two years at the BCA trade show in order to remain active. The expense for these requirements may be more than some instructors can or will pay. The annual membership dues to the BCA also increases with each higher level.

It is quite possible for an instructor with very high teaching skills to remain at the recognized level for several years. It would be a shame to rule out someone as an instructor simply because they are not certified at one of the higher levels. There are many fine recognized instructors out there. The ones who advance through the levels are usually teaching full time, or close to it, and have made a committment, not only to teaching, but to working through the various levels outlined by the BCA.

In short, the instructor rankings are not so much an indicator of teaching skill, but of the willingness of the instructor to work through the BCA Instructor program.

Steve <hr /></blockquote>


Hi steve,

You make some valid points and I can agree with many of them for sure.We have guys at work without plumbing tickets, that are good plumbers.In todays society unfortunatley it's the piece of paper that gets you the better cash.


For me personally having a "recognized" instructor fresh out of the BCA school start demanding $50 per hour is a little much.Certainly there are dues to be paid, to collect the higher dues that are eventually earned.We have two pro's in town who played on the professional tour who charge $50 and I'd say they have paid their dues much more than a "recognized " instructor who has trouble running 3 or 4 balls.

I think the first thing an instructor should do is make sure the student is stroking the ball straight.Straight up and down shots that return the cue ball to return straight back to the cue tip show if a student has a straight stroke.If the student is putting a tad of right english (or left) on the ball this can be corrected by simple things like moving the back foot more forward or more back.I think a teacher should be able to recognize these flaws and get the student stroking straight before going into set-pause-finish-freeze.

SPFF is an excellent way to shoot,however, if the stroke is crooked, it isn't the solution.If the teacher can't recognize those alignment flaws and get the student stroking straight, is he worth $50 per hour?
RJ

woody_968
09-05-2005, 02:16 PM
RJ, I understand your point of view but I dont agree with your seeming to lump all BCA recognized instructors in one group.

I have just entered the BCA program, and I can run more than 3 friggin balls /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I have spent alot of time and money going to master level instructors to work on my teaching skills. I worked under Jerry Breiseth to gain my recognition. Do I think this makes me worth as much as the ones that have been actively teaching for years? No. Do I want to be brushed off like I cant help someone because I am only at recognized level in the BCA? NO.

I am paying my dues, and doing 2 to 4 hr lessons at the rate of $40 per lesson. If after 4 hrs I still dont feel like the student has gotten as far as I want them too I will bring them back to work with them again for free. So far every student I have worked with has been more than happy with what has been covered.

Dont dismiss someone just because they are only recognized. Im not saying blindly follow anyone that calls themselves an instructor, but asking questions about their teaching theorys and who they learned from can tell you alot.

Not to mention there are many fine (and some not so fine) teachers out there who choose not to participate in the BCA program at all.

Woody

pooltchr
09-05-2005, 02:19 PM
The fact is that not being able to sent the ball straight down table and back MAY be a stroke problem, but it might also be an alignment issue, or even a sighting problem. The reason we usually start with SPFF is to make sure that the stroke is straight. Once that it done, it's easier to identify other problem areas. The stroke in most students usually does have some problems, and addressing them is simply the first step.

Yes, an instructor needs to "pay their dues" to justify charging rates like you are mentioning. At the same time, I don't think too many new instructors are charging that kind of money. I think I started out at less than half of that, and even after having put somewhere around 75 to 100 students through the course, I still don't charge that much. I work mainly with the league level players, although I have taught beginners and even worked with some pros. I try to keep my rates reasonable and affordable for the majority of potential students. I am not a Master instructor, in fact, I just went to the upgrade class with Randy early this year to advance to certified. I don't pretend to be a master instructor, but I have studied with 3 of them, as well as several advanced level instructors. The feedback I get from them is that I am a pretty darn good instructor. And I will admit I am probably a better instructor than I am a player. But I also spend more time teaching than I do practicing or playing. Yes, I can run a rack on 9-ball although not as regularly as I would like. But I have former students who I would ask for a spot from since they went through my class. If I can teach a player to become better at the game than I am, I think I have done my job. And those students still come back to me when they want help on their game.

That's the only point I was trying to make. Playing skill does not necessarily translate into teaching skill. But yes, you are correct that if an instructor can't run out with any regularity, they probably aren't worth $50 per hour. There are plenty of recognized instructors who are quite capable of running racks that can't teach, and plenty who can't run a rack that can do a very good job of teaching.

Evaluate the individual...don't let the BCA ranking be the only consideration when choosing an instructor.

Steve

recoveryjones
09-05-2005, 09:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> RJ, I understand your point of view but I dont agree with your seeming to lump all BCA recognized instructors in one group.

I have just entered the BCA program, and I can run more than 3 friggin balls /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I have spent alot of time and money going to master level instructors to work on my teaching skills. I worked under Jerry Breiseth to gain my recognition. Do I think this makes me worth as much as the ones that have been actively teaching for years? No. Do I want to be brushed off like I cant help someone because I am only at recognized level in the BCA? NO.

I am paying my dues, and doing 2 to 4 hr lessons at the rate of $40 per lesson. If after 4 hrs I still dont feel like the student has gotten as far as I want them too I will bring them back to work with them again for free. So far every student I have worked with has been more than happy with what has been covered.

Dont dismiss someone just because they are only recognized. Im not saying blindly follow anyone that calls themselves an instructor, but asking questions about their teaching theorys and who they learned from can tell you alot.

Not to mention there are many fine (and some not so fine) teachers out there who choose not to participate in the BCA program at all.

Woody <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Woody, My apologies to you if it seemed like I lumped all of you "registered" instructors into one pile, as it certainly wasn't my intention.

Your price of $40 per lesson is a lot more reasonable and doing a four hr lesson for that much, is perhaps taking it to the other extreme.I would think 20-$25 and hour is a reasonable price for a beginning instructor, at least until he's worked with 10 students or more to gain a reputation.If he is a good instructor,more work will follow.
Word of mouth is perhaps an instructors greatest advertizing tool.

The registered instructor I went to was a nice person and he communicated well with some useful information.I just thought that being so early in his teaching career that his price was just a tad to steep.That's just my PERSONAL opinion and that opinion might not be shared with many of his students who might be alright with his price.

I wish you and all the other instructors on this forum future success in your teaching endevours. I only hope that the majority of your joy is in seeing your students improve(and your teaching skills improve) and going onto be champions, rather than increasing your bankrolls.To me, that is what it should be all about.JMO
RJ

recoveryjones
09-05-2005, 09:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> The fact is that not being able to sent the ball straight down table and back MAY be a stroke problem, but it might also be an alignment issue, or even a sighting problem. The reason we usually start with SPFF is to make sure that the stroke is straight. Once that it done, it's easier to identify other problem areas. The stroke in most students usually does have some problems, and addressing them is simply the first step.

Yes, an instructor needs to "pay their dues" to justify charging rates like you are mentioning. At the same time, I don't think too many new instructors are charging that kind of money. I think I started out at less than half of that, and even after having put somewhere around 75 to 100 students through the course, I still don't charge that much. I work mainly with the league level players, although I have taught beginners and even worked with some pros. I try to keep my rates reasonable and affordable for the majority of potential students. I am not a Master instructor, in fact, I just went to the upgrade class with Randy early this year to advance to certified. I don't pretend to be a master instructor, but I have studied with 3 of them, as well as several advanced level instructors. The feedback I get from them is that I am a pretty darn good instructor. And I will admit I am probably a better instructor than I am a player. But I also spend more time teaching than I do practicing or playing. Yes, I can run a rack on 9-ball although not as regularly as I would like. But I have former students who I would ask for a spot from since they went through my class. If I can teach a player to become better at the game than I am, I think I have done my job. And those students still come back to me when they want help on their game.

That's the only point I was trying to make. Playing skill does not necessarily translate into teaching skill. But yes, you are correct that if an instructor can't run out with any regularity, they probably aren't worth $50 per hour. There are plenty of recognized instructors who are quite capable of running racks that can't teach, and plenty who can't run a rack that can do a very good job of teaching.

Evaluate the individual...don't let the BCA ranking be the only consideration when choosing an instructor.

Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Hi steve,

From your post, you seem like a teacher with your heart in the right place.It's your apparent goal to improve as a teacher and also to offer a very reasonable rate to your students.Your ultimate goal is to see them improve.

If you and Woody were in my area, I would definitly, try out a lesson or two with you.$50 per hour for a relatively inexperienced teacher just didn't sit well with me, that's all.Also when a teacher can show a little stroke in their own game, it just exudes confidence into their students that the teacher knows what he's teaching. Although being a good player isn't nessecary, it's certainly helpful(at least pyschologically) from a students perspective.

Having said all of this, I'm not cheap. If a master instructor was coming through town at $75 per hour, I would have no problem doing a lesson or two for that as well.RJ

woody_968
09-05-2005, 11:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>

Your price of $40 per lesson is a lot more reasonable and doing a four hr lesson for that much, is perhaps taking it to the other extreme.

<font color="blue">I dont always spend 4 hrs with them, it just depends on how long it takes for me to feel they are really getting a good understanding of what we are trying to acheive. And how they are performing what we are working on. </font color>
, at least until he's worked with 10 students or more to gain a reputation.If he is a good instructor,more work will follow.
Word of mouth is perhaps an instructors greatest advertizing tool.

<font color="blue">Thats the reason I have started so cheap. In fact when I first started I chose one player to work with for free so others could see his improvment. Lucky for me he has worked on what I showed him and he has turned into a walking billboard /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color>


I only hope that the majority of your joy is in seeing your students improve(and your teaching skills improve) and going onto be champions, rather than increasing your bankrolls.

<font color="blue"> I can honestly say that one of my happiest moments anymore is when one of my students shows improvement. I was playing in a single game 8 ball tourney last friday and was playing one of my students (she was a 3 that was just raised to a 4 in apa). I broke, didnt make a ball, and she ran the table on me. I have never been so happy to get sent to the loser's bracket LOL. Her husband is the one I started working with for free a while back. We went to a state tournament (vnea) and I had the pleasure of watching him play the best pool of his life. Thats why I started teaching, it sure wasnt for the money ROFL. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

RJ I know you didnt mean anything by your previous post, just wanted to point it out so others reading didnt mis-understand. I have alway enjoyed your posts and value your oppinions. What I charge has been a real concern for me and I appreciate your input.

Woody

woody_968
09-05-2005, 11:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>
Also when a teacher can show a little stroke in their own game, it just exudes confidence into their students that the teacher knows what he's teaching. Although being a good player isn't nessecary, it's certainly helpful(at least pyschologically) from a students perspective.

<hr /></blockquote>

I have always said being a good player doesnt make a good teacher, and a good teacher may not play at pro level (two different sets of skills). But I also agree that the instructor better be able to show he has some game. I put a great amount of preasure on myself (probably too much) when ever I am playing. I know that if I want people to take me seriously as a teacher I better be able to play /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

One thing I have noticed though is it can be hard to teach and play well at the same time. One of the hard things in pool is being able to seperate practice from play. You think about stroke mechanics and other things during practice, but when playing you have to be able to go on cruise control and just play the game without thoughts of stroke mechanics. When you spend much of your time trying to evaluate peoples strokes (I do this constantly, not just when teaching) it can be hard to get those thoughts out of your head LOL.

recoveryjones
09-06-2005, 11:14 AM
I know what you are talking about.

Locally I raised my game to A level and could play alright pool, nothing fantastic.I wanted to take my game to the next level so I started to incorperate SPFF. My game has gone downhill ever since.

I realize that all these mechanical thoughts have not become a natural free flowing part of my game yet and in time SPFF will pay off for me, particuliarily in pressure situations.

I can see where teaching mechanics could affect your own game and cause you to be become too mechanical as well.Also watching all those students with all their flaws can't be too good for the subliminal aspescts of your game.Take care, RJ

pooltchr
09-06-2005, 11:27 AM
Actually, for me, when I spend time teaching, I find that my game usually improves. I think focusing on mechanics with a student helps re-enforce them in my own game.
When I put away my teaching cue and pull out my playing cue after an extended lesson, I usually find my game to be near it's highest level.
But that's just me...

Steve

BigRigTom
09-06-2005, 12:06 PM
This is an interesting question and I have had the same one myself. I also see how it is a bit difficult to give a simple and straight forward answer that would be understood by everyone.
The instructor rate should be based on what is being taught and at what level that instruction is presented and to whom it is being taught.
It just makes sense that the instruction that a pro would find valuable would be worth more dollars than the instruction that would be of use to a typical league player...even a top rated league player.
As an APA Skill level 7 and co-captain I spend a lot of my time with other players on my teams who are at a lower skill level. I AM NOT by any means an instructor but I can provide instruction to these players that will improve their games. Of course I certainly do not charge for my service, I do it because they are friends and team mates.
The problem with putting a price tag on the value of instruction is that it is so dependent on the player who is receiving the instruction and how he views the value him (or her)self.
Pool itself is a complicated affair and instruction can cover a lot of different things. Pool is not all about shot making...sometimes potting a ball is not that important at all. It may even be better in the long haul to NOT pocket the ball and play a safe instead.
It also is important to consider the goals of the student. Is he working toward being a pro, does he want to win tournaments, does he plan to play money games, is he just wanting to play a respectible game or does he want to develop the skills necessary to play in and lead a team to the nationals and beyond. All these would require different approaches to the instruction at some point and would cause the instruction given to be valued differently.

DickLeonard
09-08-2005, 10:26 AM
recovoryjones, just post five pictures of yourself playing pool, front view,both side views,rear view and finished view head on and I can tell anybody what there doing wrong.####

recoveryjones
09-08-2005, 07:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> recovoryjones, just post five pictures of yourself playing pool, front view,both side views,rear view and finished view head on and I can tell anybody what there doing wrong.#### <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Dick,
I have a about 15 minute dvd of myself doing about 7 break and runs.PM me and I'll send it off to you as I'd appreciate someone with some knowledge who could give me some straight up tips on how to improve my stroke.

In some shots (that I succesfully make) I can see some body and head movements, however for the most part I'm staying still.

I've accentuated my pause-set-finish-freeze since that video as I'm trying to revamp my stroke a bit.Helpful feedback from you would be appreciated.RJ

ps.Those 7 break and runs weren't in a row /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
that's for sure.

DickLeonard
09-09-2005, 03:50 PM
RecoveryJones, check your home page. Dick

Bob_Jewett
09-09-2005, 03:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> ... I have a about 15 minute dvd of myself doing about 7 break and runs.PM me and I'll send it off to you as I'd appreciate someone with some knowledge who could give me some straight up tips on how to improve my stroke.
... <hr /></blockquote>
For the purpose of making a diagnosis, I think videos of you making mistakes would be a lot more useful than seeing seven successful runs. Try some progressive practice drills and don't start filming until you're at the limit of your skill. That's when the flaws will come out.

TennesseeJoe
09-10-2005, 03:27 PM
What would you do to to improve Efren Reyes' stroke if he was your student?

Scott Lee
09-10-2005, 11:41 PM
That's a ridiculous question. Efren doesn't need improvement in HIS stroke. It's already correct for HIM.
What a good instructor does, is help a student define problem areas and work out solutions. Since Efren is already perhaps the best all-around player on Earth, he needs no help.

Scott Lee

recoveryjones
09-11-2005, 01:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> recovoryjones, just post five pictures of yourself playing pool, front view,both side views,rear view and finished view head on and I can tell anybody what there doing wrong.#### <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Dick, It's really nice of you to offer this stroke analysis service.Mark Wilson on the internet will also do a stroke analysis but charges $50 for that service.

For details(anyone)feel free to check out his link here:
http://www.playgreatpool.com/stroke_analysis.html
RJ

TennesseeJoe
09-11-2005, 10:36 AM
The only ridiculous question is the one which is not asked. I now have a better perception of your talent.

Bob_Jewett
09-12-2005, 02:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TennesseeJoe:</font><hr> What would you do to to improve Efren Reyes' stroke if he was your student? <hr /></blockquote>
As Scott pointed out, that would be quite a challenge, since Efren already plays well above average. If he was interested in working on his stroke, I think the general outline would be the same: find problem shots/situations and work on them. But from what I've seen, Efren already does this without any prodding from an instructor.

As for whether great players need (or can use) coaches, I think it's interesting to note what the snooker players do.