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Fran Crimi
09-14-2005, 08:27 AM
Not meaning to simplify the dreadful and complex situation in LA, but the bottom line is that frankly, LA took a gamble in not upgrading their levy system and lost.

The question is how does one come to the conclusion to upgrade the levy system? Why was the decision made not to do it? I think the answer is obvious.

All it would take is to PROPERLY map out what a mandatory evacuation plan would entail, and that includes hospitals, nursing homes, the elderly, sick and poor. This was obviously not done, because once it would have been realized that it would have been a nearly impossible task to insure the safety of all residents, (not to mention where to place them out of the city) the obvious conclusion would have been that the levy system MUST be upgraded.

It should have been the joint effort of the mayor and governor to make this a priority, and kick and scream if they had to, to get it done. With enough kicking and screaming, it would have gotten done.

Instead, not nearly enough time or thought was put into a possible evacuation plan. The impossibility of the evacuaton situation was never brought to light, thus no one recognized the true urgency of the need for upgrading the levys. Yes, I know studies have been conducted, however, I believe that in the back of their minds, local and state government decided that the odds of a cat 4 or 5 hitting would be small compared to the cost of upgrading the levy, and that they would just evacuate instead. Bad gamble.

I have yet to hear LA state and local government take responsibility for this. Instead they focus on the aftermath, and what should have been done.

This should NEVER have happened in the first place. NEVER.

Fran

Tom_In_Cincy
09-14-2005, 11:21 AM
It should have never happened.

I agree.

Unfortunately, when Camile hit in the 1969 with 190 mph wind forces and 22-25 foot wave heights, not many of the current LA and Mississippi government were in office.



BUT, those same government officials should have taken warning from all that has happened in the last 2 years to Florida. Camille story and pictures (http://www.geocities.com/hurricanene/hurricanecamille.htm)

eg8r
09-14-2005, 11:36 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I have yet to hear LA state and local government take responsibility for this. Instead they focus on the aftermath, and what should have been done. <hr /></blockquote> And you won't. With the Blame Bush crowd out there in full force, there simply is not enough time on the news for the truth to come out about the poorly run state and city.

eg8r

eg8r
09-14-2005, 11:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, when Camile hit in the 1969 with 190 mph wind forces and 22-25 foot wave heights, not many of the current LA and Mississippi government were in office. <hr /></blockquote> Those wave height's with that much wind are comparable with the what happened in this storm with much less wind speed. One of the buoy's in the Gulf registered a 47 ft wave right before the storm hit land. Amazing.

eg8r

9 Ball Girl
09-14-2005, 11:47 AM
I say fix now, blame later.

Voodoo Daddy
09-14-2005, 12:14 PM
Any politician from La. &amp; Miss. in the last 36 years should be lined up against a wall and publicly stoned. ALL OF THEM from the local sector to Washington D.C.. There was no evacuation plan in place, no emergancy plan in place and they all that time to prepare. Yet they all have their hands out for pet projects and fundraising functions...NONE of which helped the people of those communities that are displaced, unemployeed and mental damaged from here on out.

I know this mental damage first hand from 1992...when your house comes apart around you, simply put your never right again!!

Chopstick
09-14-2005, 12:38 PM
True, it shouldn't have happened. But people become complacent. They figure it stood for 200 years, it should be good for a few more. They did receive money to upgrade the system and chose to spend it on other things.

Has anyone else thought of this or is it just me? It was the levee breaking not the hurricane that was the real diseaster in New Orleans. The hurricane damage wasn't that bad when compared to the flood.

Well, anyone could have broken those levees with a few hundred pounds of explosives.

dg-in-centralpa
09-14-2005, 04:07 PM
What gripes me, is that everyone is focusing on the people who didn't get out, some by their own choosing. What about the ones who did get out. Are they not to be praised for heeding the warnings?

DG

Dagwood
09-14-2005, 04:10 PM
Good point...and they should be.

Dags

Qtec
09-14-2005, 06:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
After landfall, Ivan dropped heavy rains on the Southeastern United States, turned east, and then later looped south and through Florida and regenerated into a tropical storm for a short time in the Gulf of Mexico. The new tropical system moved into Louisiana and Texas, causing minimal damage.

Ivan broke several hydrological records; it is credited with possibly causing the largest ocean wave ever recorded, a 91-foot (27 meter) wave that may have been as high as 131 feet (40 m), and the fastest seafloor current, at 2.25 meters per second (5 miles per hour).

<hr /></blockquote>

Q

Gayle in MD
09-15-2005, 05:05 AM
Fran, you're right, everyone of them failed the people in that state, local and federal/executive. Last night the Governor gave a statement taking responsibility, Bush also, for the federal failure. Maybe we are moving into a new era, politicians taking responsibility. Thank heavens for the news folks, who made it possible for us to actually see what went on there.

My understanding is that Lousianna has been known for corrupt leaders, but they have been screaming for money from the budget to be allocated to their state to upgrade the levee system, and restore the surrounding wetlands. Some engineers think that the design of the levee system itself is causing the city to sink.

I watched a show on PBS last night about the flood of 1938, and the parrells were astounding. Unbelievable to think that all these years later, and with all the advances in engineering, we would be watching the same events so many years later.

Although it is a tragic and sad event, the one good thing that might come out of it, is that hopefully the general public will demand that our leaders live up to their promises to make our country as safe as possible at this time of national vulnerability due to the terrorist threat. We'll see, but don't bet the farm on it. It doesn't matter if it's the Dems, or the repubs, politicians are corrupt, and most are out for themselves, IMO, and don't give a damn about the rest of us. Our system is what needs to be changed, IMO. Meantime, I'm pricing Hazmet suits for my family....

Love,
Gayle

pooltchr
09-15-2005, 05:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> There was no evacuation plan in place, no emergancy plan in place and they all that time to prepare. <hr /></blockquote>

Actually, the did have a plan. It included using public transportation as well as all those school buses that we saw sitting in 8 feet of water. The problem isn't that they didn't have a plan....it's that no one put it into effect.
Steve

eg8r
09-15-2005, 05:37 AM
I don't think you need to praise anyone for using a little common sense.

I think the people that need to be praised are the ones out there in boats, helicopters, transport vehicles, etc who are doing everything they can to save as many as possible. I think we should praise everyone who has taken time to donate what they could, in whatever form possible.

eg8r

eg8r
09-15-2005, 05:38 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It was the levee breaking not the hurricane that was the real diseaster in New Orleans. <hr /></blockquote> Cause and effect. If not for the hurricane, the levee would probably not have broke (until the next big storm).

eg8r

eg8r
09-15-2005, 05:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I say fix now, blame later. <hr /></blockquote> Is this what you said when you were quoting Michael Moore?

I believe we should fix now and blame later, apparently though, the media does not agree with you.

eg8r

Voodoo Daddy
09-15-2005, 05:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> There was no evacuation plan in place, no emergancy plan in place and they all that time to prepare. <hr /></blockquote>

Actually, the did have a plan. It included using public transportation as well as all those school buses that we saw sitting in 8 feet of water. The problem isn't that they didn't have a plan....it's that no one put it into effect.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

"In place" in business speak means put into action or effect...I read the Maritime reports...nothing was put in place.

Rich R.
09-15-2005, 06:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> I think the people that need to be praised are the ones out there in boats, helicopters, transport vehicles, etc who are doing everything they can to save as many as possible. I think we should praise everyone who has taken time to donate what they could, in whatever form possible.<hr /></blockquote>
This is one of those rare moments, when we agree. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Fran Crimi
09-15-2005, 06:58 AM
President Bush specifically stated that he was unhappy with the federal response and he took responsibility for that. The governor of LA did not state that she took responsibility for anything specific. She made a blanket statement that she took responsibility for anything the state was responsible for. I'd like to hear what she felt the state was responsible for.

Both she and Nagin are still trying to cover their butts. Last night Larry King asked Nagin what he would have done differently. Do you know what that arrogent SOB answered? He said that next time he'd know not to expect government response within 3 days.

Believe me, if it was really the federal government's fault that those levees weren't upgraded, both of them would have been screaming it from the very beginning, non-stop. They didn't do that. Instead they put the focus of their blame somewhere else.

The wetlands are not going to protect New Orleans from a cat 5 storm, even if they're expanded. The only chance they have is to raise the entire city above sea level or to upgrade the levees.

Fran

Fran Crimi
09-15-2005, 07:35 AM
Bussing all those people out ahead of time was never going to work. First, the roads were jammed with hundreds of thousands of people. Add to that, 50,000 people worth of busses.

Second, imagine you're a New Orleans resident and the monster storm is approaching. Your priority is to get your house boarded up, gather your belongings and get your family to safety. Would you volunteer to put aside your own priorities and drive one of those busses? Of course not. They would never have gotten enough bus drivers. Not in a million years. Then there's the logistic problem of where to take the busses. Where do you bring all those people to ride out the storm? Plus, do you think there could have been rioting to get on those busses? I do.

There IS no feasable plan that would sucessfully evacuate an entire metropolitan area in two days, which is why upgrading the levees was so important, to at least offer some protection to those who had to remain behind.

Fran

Chopstick
09-15-2005, 08:24 AM
I read that the upgrades to the 17th street levees were complete. It would make sense that they would finish those first. I have been trying to figure out how they failed. It wasn't a height issue. There wasn't any water going over the top of them. The canal had a body of water in front of it to drain into. Where did the pressure come from?

What I did come across from someone who lived there is that in the area of the breach the levee/sea wall consisted of concrete revetments sitting on dirt. They weren't paved or sealed at the bottom. Water would seep through at the bottom from the canal. It appears that hydrostatic pressure forced through the ground and collapsed the wall from the bottom. In that case, making the levee taller would make no difference.

Then of course, there is this:

Newsmax, September 14 -

Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan is telling his followers that the levees in New Orleans may have been deliberately "blown up" to kill the city's black population. "I heard from a very reliable source who saw a 25 foot deep crater under the levee breach," Farrakhan explained. "It may have been blown up to destroy the black part of town and keep the white part dry."

<font color="blue">How did you miss this one Q? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color>

Fran Crimi
09-15-2005, 09:22 AM
Well, I'm not so sure I'm ready to believe the levee was blown up, either by terrorists or anyone else. But we could very well be looking at faulty construction here.

Here's an interesting article from a blog site.






Levee board under federal investigation before Katrina hit


Rampant public corruption was doing big business in New Orleans long before Hurricane Katrina ever hit. What then Congressman, now Senator David Vitter calls "corrupt, good old boy" practices were apparent in the New Orleans Levee Board just one year before the collapse of regional levees, emergency communications and government services brought the Big Easy to the brink of anarchy. In fact, Senator David Vitter requested a federal investigation into improper practices of a number of public utilities, including the New Orleans Levee Board, and a new Task Force was to have been initiated in the Baton Rouge office, beginning in July 2004.

Actually, I didn't know New Orleans even had a Levee Board, did you? In talking to several people, including a high level State Government Official, a Senior, experienced individual involved with regional emergency planning and more than a few other credible sources, one word always stood out so plainly I began to think the New Orleans Levee Board might be a fruit. The word was Plum, as in political.

The levee board is a quasi-political governmental body, translation: according to some, how much did you give and to whom did you give it. But maybe that's just talk - a lot of talk. Because the levee board has done many things: Oh yes, they have.

Orleans Levee District, a quasi-governmental body, is resposponsible(sic) for 129 miles of earthen levees, floodwalls, 190 floodgates, 2 flood control structures, and 100 valves. The governor appoints six of the board's eight members, and they serve at his pleasure. When a storm approaches it is responsible for closing the hundreds of hurricane protection floodgates and valves on levees surrounding the city. All residents outside of these levees evacuate.

The District's General Fund accounts for all operating funds for the daily operations of the Administrative Offices, Field Forces, Law Enforcement and support operations necessary to maintain the Board's level of services for flood protection and public safety.

The District's Special Levee Improvement Projects Fund (SLIP) accounts for the capital funds for major maintenance and/or capital improvements of all physical property and plant owned by the Board that is identified as directly related to flood protection.

Ironically enough, it doesn't require an engineering degree, or any type of experience with a levee to serve on the levee board in New Orleans. It says only that: they serve at his (the Governor's) pleasure.

It's my understanding that the levee board is often primarily composed of business people.

6 members appointed by the Governor; must be qualified electors of Orleans Parish. Mayor of New Orleans or his designee and 1 other member of N.O. City Council, appointed by Mayor, serves Ex-Officio.

But it would appear they did their job.

On Saturday at 7 p.m., the Hurricane Center placed the storm 360 miles southeast of the mouth of the Mississippi River, with winds of 115 mph. The forecast projected the storm sweeping directly over the city.

The Hurricane Center posted a hurricane warning from Morgan City to the Alabmama-Florida line.

President Bush declared a state of emergency in Louisiana, authorizing federal emergency management officials to release federal aid and coordinate disaster relief efforts.

By mid-afternoon, officials in Plaquemines, St. Bernard, St. Charles, Lafourche, Terrebonne and Jefferson parishes had called for voluntary or mandatory evacuations.

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin followed at 5 p.m., issuing a voluntary evacuation.

Nagin said late Saturday that he's having his legal staff look into whether he can order a mandatory evacuation of the city, a step he's been hesitant to do because of potential liability on the part of the city for closing hotels and other businesses.

Levee board officials around the area closed or prepared to close floodgates to protect low-lying areas. The Orleans Parish Levee District said it would close floodgates and sever Louisiana 11 and U.S. 90 at today at 6 p.m., cutting that route to or from the city. Most other floodgates already were closed.

It also appears that a great deal of decisions in and around New Orleans, even among levee board members, get made with business, not necessarily a levee, in mind.

The District's General Improvement Fund accounts for the capital funds for major maintenance or capital improvement of all physical property and plant owned by the Board that is not identified as directly related to flood protection. These projects relate to land reclamation, commercial buildings, improvements (other than buildings), and infrastructure.

The Orleans Marina currently operates with 355 open slips, 66 boathouses, a Harbor Master Office, as well as related marine amenities. The South Shore Harbor Marina was officially dedicated September 19, 1987. The Marina operates with 447 open slips, 26 cover slips, marina center, fuel dock, and Harbor Master Office as well as related marina amenities. The Belle of Orleans gaming operation is housed at South Shore Harbor and is the principal tenant in the harbor. The annual operations require a subsidy to satisfy the operating shortfall resulting from a substantial debt service requirement on the outstanding Marina Public Improvement bonds.

The New Orleans Lakefront Airport commercially operates with 3 fixed base operators, 13 office tenants, and 10 hangar occupants. A hydrocarbon aviation fuel farm facility is used for on-site sales of all aviation fuels at Lakefront Airport. The annual operations require a subsidy to satisfy the operating short-fall resulting from the labor intensive costs of daily operations of Administration, Fire Safety and Maintenance, as well as the reimbursement to the General Fund for an advance used for the early call of the $4,000,000 Fuel Farm Revenue Bonds.

Along with establishing an Airport and Marina, the levee board is said to have also played a key role in establishing a floating casino and a fiber-optic cable network around the levee. Unfortunately, fiber optics don't hold back much water. However, I would think they, along with a marina, casino and private airport certainly could be good for business. One source indicated that the levee board spent approximately two-million dollars to erect a fountain and light show at a local lake in recent years.

To be fair, I haven't spoken to anyone from the levee board itself. Along with time restrictions, communications aren't the best in that region right now and my resources are limited, unlike some news sources. So, I wonder, will any major news outlet drive their Chevy to the levee board? Something tells me if they do, they'll find the levee board dry ... and safe, and I would hope so. Unfortunately, that can't be said for many of the citizens of New Orleans who didn't serve at the Governor's pleasure on the levee board.

Many of those people couldn't drive their Chevy's to the levee board, assuming they had one ... their Chevy, like too much of everything else in New Orleans would be underwater ... thanks, in large part, to the levee. And I doubt that many of them made it to the marina or airport to escape, or can call friends or family on what is most likely a totally or partially destroyed fiber optic network.

And somehow something tells me they might not have much use for the pretty fountain these days, either. Call it a guess.

This post is also available at Blogger News Network.

Posted by Dan in Hurricane Katrina | Permalink

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Listed below are links to weblogs that reference New Orleans Levee Board Under Fire:

» New Orleans Levee Board Under Fire BEFORE KATRINA from Hyscience
Could New Orleans’s descent into quasi-revolutionary chaos be an indirect result of racketeering, kickbacks and procurement fraud by Democrat insiders with ties to a fast-growing organization called `La Francophonie’? [Read More]

Tracked on Sep 6, 2005 11:24:50 PM

» The Levee Board from Armies of Liberation
under federal investigation before the hurricane hit. Dan has the full story. [Read More]

Tracked on Sep 6, 2005 11:28:36 PM

» Did Don McClean Cover This In A Song? from Confederate Yankee
Shocking, I tell you, shocking. I drove my chevy to the levee but the levee board was under a federal investigation for corruption because a senator noted "corrupt, good old boy" practices of a bunch of stooges appoint by an... [Read More]

Tracked on Sep 6, 2005 11:36:55 PM

» Somebody's to blame from phin's blog
The media has chosen to focus on the poor down trodden souls who've lost everything, urging them along and pushing the belief that it's because the government didn't intervene. Acidman posted an article written by Robert Tracinski of The Intellectual... [Read More]

Tracked on Sep 7, 2005 2:37:56 PM

» Levee Commissions under Fire from Right in the Desert
One question which has been bothering me since the New Orleans flood is, "who is responsible for maintaining the levees?" It turns out that levees are a pretty big issue in Louisiana. This may seem obvious, but remembering the name of this blog, we don... [Read More]

Tracked on Sep 11, 2005 5:12:23 PM

Comments
wow. a levee board. what a failure. would hate to be one of the people on that board and be held accountable.

Posted by: bhm mom too | Sep 6, 2005 10:54:39 PM

Thanks. Very interesting. It sounds like some could not even afford a Chevy, because others were greedy. I hope we get the whole truth in the future, but we must continue to help those in need.

Posted by: WI Mom | Sep 6, 2005 11:04:22 PM

Levee Board! Of course there is a levee board! Why wouldn't there be a levee board. It is important to have a group of people who know nothing about levee's on the levee board. What is so confusing about this? Everyone knows if you are going to have levee's you must have a levee board. Seems kind of obvious to me. Just kidding of course. Dan you really went off with this chevy levee thing. It is funny and I starting to wonder if you ran for the levee board and lost. Is that where all this levee board envy is coming from?

Posted by: Isabell | Sep 6, 2005 11:11:34 PM

Dan, I thought that link was to the song ! Dang, haven't heard that song in a long time. :O(

I do not know much about this levee board thing. SOUNDS TOO MUCH LIKE THEY WERE PLAYING ON A WEGEE BOARD. LOL

Posted by: ! | Sep 7, 2005 1:07:10 AM

Dan, I thought that link was to the song ! Dang, haven't heard that song in a long time. :O(

I do not know much about this levee board thing. SOUNDS TOO MUCH LIKE THEY WERE PLAYING ON A WEGEE BOARD. LOL

Posted by: ! | Sep 7, 2005 1:07:41 AM

Dan, thanks for bringing this out. It needs to be emphasized that the Army Corps of Engineers is actually only responsible for the Mississippi River levees. All others levees in New Orleans (including those that broke) are under the jurisdiction of the local levee boards.

Posted by: Bullgator | Sep 7, 2005 10:03:40 AM

wow. a levee board. what a failure. would hate to be one of the people on that board and be held accountable.

Posted by: bhm mom too | Sep 6, 2005 10:54:39 PM

If the laws in LA are similar to Alabama, not one single person in this mess is going to be held legally liable for any of this. They are all indemnified of wrong-doing about the decisions they made. Folks of Louisiana will have no recourse against them for their mutliple offenses of arrogance, ignorance, grandstanding, and cluelessness. Now if they can prove graft, corruption, or fraud.. that is a different story! I've been wondering since last week, when the NY Times article stated that the 17th Street levee, the one that broke, was actually an updated levee, is anyone going to investigate the construction contracts??... That is the investigation, along with how did the levee board spend it's money, that I want to see!! ... Who where the construction contracts given to, did they follow public bid laws, and what were their affiliations with the powers that be in the State. I bet we are going to see a stink the size of New Orleans on this issue.

Posted by: usmcmom | Sep 7, 2005 10:25:52 AM

THANK you Dan. Keep digging on this one...there is more goo there than on the streets of New Orleans.

Posted by: galloway | Sep 7, 2005 6:13:20 PM

Levee boards are very common, although this is the first one that I've heard of that "sits at the Governor's pleasure".

Of course, I dealt only with small boards, the sort that cover part of a drainage, or maybe a county. They are sometimes called levee or flood districts.

No matter. I only recall 1 or 2 that actually tried to, y'know, *maintain* their levees. One such district spent most of their limited income on their salaries, and paying their lawyer to write letters asking for maintenance assistance (i.e., cash hand outs).

Posted by: The Real JeffS | Sep 8, 2005 5:25:18 AM

What about the possibility that the EPA and environmentalists helped clog up any levee construction/improvements?

The Front Page Magazine has an article on it today (I have it linked at my blog)

Posted by: Sharon Ferguson | Sep 8, 2005 8:39:07 AM

You hit a nail Sharon...environmentalists, to whom many in the Democratic party are beholden, vehemently oppose any and all levee systems.

Posted by: galloway | Sep 8, 2005 2:37:54 PM

but it's much easier to blame bush because the gov. and that well spoken mayor will take no responsibility.

Posted by: chriso | Sep 8, 2005 4:23:54 PM

Boards in Louisiana are just that....Bored...they are political paybacks to friends and family...no qualifications necessary or required..they meet occasionally and draw their salaries....how do I know this...I have lived in Louisiana for 64 years....

Posted by: LALady | Sep 8, 2005 9:05:42 PM

Gee, the many people saved by Orleans Levee marina employees during Katrina probably can appreciate the wisdom of their existance.

Posted by: one thatknows | Sep 11, 2005 5:01:18 AM

Also, Orleans Levee Board land reclamation is related to flood and land loss. Reclaimed land bolsters barriers and helps to offset the ongoing loss of coastline.

blog site (http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/09/new_orleans_lev.html)

Chopstick
09-15-2005, 10:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Well, I'm not so sure I'm ready to believe the levee was blown up, either by terrorists or anyone else. But we could very well be looking at faulty construction here.

<hr /></blockquote>

I think neglect is loser to the truth.

"One source indicated that the levee board spent approximately two-million dollars to erect a fountain and light show at a local lake in recent years."

Now if you were the administrator of the federal funds that were being distributed to these people for levee maintanence/upgrades and this is what they were doing with them, would it not be reasonable to cut down their funding?

Qtec
09-15-2005, 11:03 AM
1. NEVER quote anything from Newsmax. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
2. Its common knowledge that they blew the levee to save the white part of town. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Really, I dont know, but I can tell you this.

The Netherlands is one huge flood plane. Half the country is under sea level. When the Germans invaded NL at the start of WW2, they broke the dykes and half the country was under water[ and you can see what an effect that has to a country,s capability to funcion]
The assault comes from 2 sides. The sea and the Maas/ Rijn river.
The point is, in an emergecy, some parts of the country will be deliberatly flooded. If there is too much water, its got to go somewhere. All you can do is decide where .
The people who live in these areas know the risk and will be evacuated and fully compensated for the damage. I think its called risk management.
If you had a situ. in NO where there was a risk of levee failure, I dont think it is beyond reality to assume they might make a decision on where to make a break to save some of the city. But then again, I think it is unlikely. Who knows.

Q

catscradle
09-15-2005, 01:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Not meaning to simplify the dreadful and complex situation in LA, but ...
<hr /></blockquote>

Of course, a good case could be made that a major city should not be located where NO is located, but that's a moot point, it is there. Given that it is there where it shouldn't be, the government officials should have as you suggested upgraded the levies to ensure it's safety, but it's the old "right stuff" syndrome. You know, I've got the "right stuff" (like in the book and movie) bad things won't happen to me. It will happen time and again, it's good to see CA replacing the Oakland Bay Bridge after the earthquake collapsed a portion of the old one, at least somebody is learning from the past.

Vapros
09-15-2005, 03:29 PM
Every town on the Gulf Coast has an evacuation plan for these occasions. Some plans are better than others, some local administrations are more diligent than others. Some people try to comply, some decline for various reasons, and others, of course, cannot. Some areas are much easier to evacuate than others. For New Orleans, a storm forecast to hit the city and points east dictates that all traffic must go west, to and thru Baton Rouge. That's tough as a boot. Crossing Lake Pontchartrain on the causeway is no answer. It would not improve your location much, and there is no big city on the North Shore to accept you. It has to be Baton Rouge, and when the time came, I-10 became only a west-bound artery, with all lanes going the same way. No inbound traffic. That turned out to be a good idea, but not a great one. Some people spent more than eight hours making the 75 mile trip, and found no accommodations when they arrived. The situation was nothing but bad news, and no remedy to be had.

New Orleans got hit hard, and the Mississippi coast got hit harder. But when Katrina had gone inland, it seemed New Orleans had escaped the worst-case scenario, until it was known that there was a breach in the levee on the 17th street canal, and that Lake Pontchartrain was flooding a huge area through the gap. Not the Mississippi River, but the lake. Nobody knows for certain what happened, but it is a fact that there was a loose barge careening around in that area during the storm. Maybe that was it.

Anyway, the world knows the rest of it. Lots of people are at fault, but it's not easy sorting them out. Disaster is meat and drink to the media, and they are fattening up on this one. Politics? Sure. Are our politicians worse than anyone else's? Maybe they are. How are yours? Is there a similar disaster that could happen in your town? Do you have a good plan?

Perhaps the worst news is from the climatologists and the geologists. They say that more and worse storms are likely to be on the way, for three reasons.
1. Such weather runs in cycles lasting several years, and we are due about now.
2. Global warming heats the water in the Gulf, which is where a hurrican gets its energy.
3. The expanse of marsh between New Orleans and the Gulf is rapidly eroding away, annually because of ecological forces and instantly when a hurricane comes and takes a big bite of it. This land area is where the storm's force begins to abate, after leaving the Gulf. Each year there is less of it; less protection.

Now it is time to rebuild. How big would levees have to be to be certain this can't happen again? Pretty dam high and massive. Will all that effort and expense be forthcoming? It remains to be seen. Will people be eager to rebuild in the areas now being pumped out? Some will and some won't.

It is a fascinating situation, and this entire state and even beyond are facing a tremendous impact from it. We are poorly prepared to absorb that many unexpected people, but we have to do it anyway.

Blame whoever you want. Right now it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. We'll think about it later.

Candyman
09-15-2005, 05:37 PM
http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/

There was an eerie article in Nat. Geo in 2004. Check it out. Lock

pooltchr
09-15-2005, 07:07 PM
Thank you for the insight from someone closer to the situation than the rest of us. We all know it's hard, and sometimes when the political discussions heat up around here, we may lose sight of the real problems. Yes, lots of people are at fault for not preparing or responding in the best way. It really doesn't matter at the moment. Doing what we can to fix the immediate problem, and the long term problem should take priority.

In answer to your very pointed question, if one of the nuclear plants in our area had a major problem, I honestly don't have a lot of faith in the local or state officials to do a good job dealing with the resulting problems. Even our elected officials are no more human than the rest of us. We all have our shortcomings, and quite honestly, I would be the first to admit that I probably couldn't have handled the problem if I were in charge. I guess that's why I sell pool cues and teach people to use them rather than run for public office.

Good Post!
Steve

CarolNYC
09-16-2005, 02:52 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Would you volunteer to put aside your own priorities and drive one of those busses? <hr /></blockquote>

You bet your a$$ I would!

Gayle in MD
09-16-2005, 04:22 AM
Fran, that's exactly what they were trying to accomplish, but Congress wouldn't allocate the funds. They had a plan, but those people who were supposed to drive the busses, fled to save their own lives. I Think they're all at fault, and hopefuly, an investigation will enlighten us regarding the failures of local and federal response, but certainly, having an incompetent, disinterested head of our Federal Emergency response, Michael Brown, was one of the most disasterous causes of loss of human life. What if terrorists had attacked us, and that bozo was calling the shots? The blame is evenly spread, IMO, but the federal failure has capacity to impact the whole country under dior circumstances. The governor, and the President, are both responsible, IMO.

Gayle in Md.

catscradle
09-16-2005, 04:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Well, I'm not so sure I'm ready to believe the levee was blown up, either by terrorists or anyone else. But we could very well be looking at faulty construction here.
...
<hr /></blockquote>

Though it wouldn't shock me if the effect of the levy break "inspired" a terrorist or two.

Fran Crimi
09-16-2005, 07:16 AM
The blame is evenly spread? I think not.

Let me ask you this: Nagin and Blanco had at least 5 days warning that the hurricane could potentially hit NO. If they planned on using the dome as a last resort, which they did, then why didn't they arrange to have ample supplies of food and water shipped to the dome ahead of time? If it wasn't needed, there would be no harm done. I'll tell you why...because they were gambling again...gambling that the levees would hold, and if they didn't the feds would bail them out.

How do you tell a city riddled with sick, elderly and poor that if they don't find a way to get out of the city, they're on their own? That's what Nagin announced less than 24 hours before the storm hit.

Why did Blanco not know what to say when she was asked how many troops she needed after the flood started, or how much food and water and how many rescue choppers? How come she couldn't answer that question? How come when she finally did come up with a number 3 days later, she only asked for 7000 troops? How come it took her 5 days to finally recognize the need for more, when she finally asked for 40,000 troops? She knew the protocol. She knew that it was up to the state to ask for assistance and how much assistance. Or did she?

She was asked over and over again...tell us what you need. Bush became angry when he realized that protocol should have been broken long before that when it was evident that Blanco was unable to cope with the situation. He should have micro-managed the situation himself and got the troops in there, regardless of what the law was, even at the risk of the civil rights warriors who would be screaming at the top of their lungs that the rights of the people were being violated.

Brown's mistake was in not thinking on his feet. He should have seen it coming after initial discussions with Blanco. He should have immediately recommended breaking the law to the President and sending in help without Blanco's permission, when she said let's wait 24 hours. Blanco even admitted that she didn't realize she was supposed to ask for a specific amount of help. She just thought that asking for help would be enough and that the fed. gov't would know how much to send.

How do you preside over a state with one of the highest risks for disaster and not know what you're supposed to do when it happens? How is that possible?

Fran

Chopstick
09-16-2005, 07:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
If you had a situ. in NO where there was a risk of levee failure, I dont think it is beyond reality to assume they might make a decision on where to make a break to save some of the city. But then again, I think it is unlikely. Who knows.

Q <hr /></blockquote>

I grew up on the Mississippi river. I think that if someone has never seen it, it would hard to imagine just how big it is. It's over a mile wide at Memphis,Tn. It's also tricky. It constantly tries to change it's track espicially at the end around New Orleans. Sand bars will appear in the middle of it and disappear all in the same day. I was lucky to live on the Memphis side because it's on a bluff. The Arkansas side is flat and at river level. I saw one river flood when I was a kid. You couldn't see Arkansas any more. It was water as far as I could see.

Lake Pontchartrain is also massive. It's 40 miles by 24 miles. A river that takes 10 minutes to drive across and a lake that takes 30 minutes to drive across. Throw a storm up in there and get all that water angry. The total forces involved are almost unimagineable. I am suprised that there is anything left standing there at all.

It's like everyone in the south says don't live in a trailer park because a tornado will blow it away. Hey, any thing a tornado hits is toast. With this kind of storm they could have had a levee half way to the moon and it still would have got tore up JMHO.

Fran Crimi
09-16-2005, 07:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> With this kind of storm they could have had a levee half way to the moon and it still would have got tore up JMHO. <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, but the entire levee system didn't collapse. Most of it held up. It would seem logical that if the system were stronger, then it would either hold or the breaches would have been less devestating, perhaps more quickly repaired to avoid the massive flooding.

Fran

eg8r
09-16-2005, 08:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If they planned on using the dome as a last resort, which they did, then why didn't they arrange to have ample supplies of food and water shipped to the dome ahead of time? <hr /></blockquote> I believe the Red Cross tried to drop food, water, and supplies at the Dome and they were turned away because the dome was a last resort. They did not to feed the people there because then they would want to stay and others would show up. They did not want these people staying there.

eg8r

Fran Crimi
09-16-2005, 08:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
If they planned on using the dome as a last resort, which they did, then why didn't they arrange to have ample supplies of food and water shipped to the dome ahead of time? <hr /></blockquote> I believe the Red Cross tried to drop food, water, and supplies at the Dome and they were turned away because the dome was a last resort. They did not to feed the people there because then they would want to stay and others would show up. They did not want these people staying there.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Nagin was well aware that the elderly, sick and poor would not be able to leave the city. That dome was the only way to save their lives at that point. Food and water should have been there well ahead of time. It would have, had he put 5 more minutes of thought into it.

Fran

9 Ball Girl
09-16-2005, 11:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Nagin was well aware that the elderly, sick and poor would not be able to leave the city. That dome was the only way to save their lives at that point. Food and water should have been there well ahead of time. It would have, had he put 5 more minutes of thought into it.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>Unfortunately, I think they were not well prepared because they probably didn't think that they were going to be as devasted as they were so yeah, 5 minutes more of thinking may've helped.

eg8r
09-16-2005, 11:40 AM
No doubt.

eg8r

Fran Crimi
09-16-2005, 11:57 AM
It's a no-brainer. You've got 10's of thousands of poor people with no way to evacuate. Then you have the gall to tell them, well if you can't get out yourselves, then you can all pile in the dome as a LAST RESORT?? Give me a break. Where else were they going to go? Nagin himself stated that this could very well be the storm they've all been dreading, so there's no doubt that he considered the possibility that there could be a catastrophic situation. So why did he contradict himself by not providing food and water when he was publically stating something different? Did he honestly think the words "LAST RESORT" were going to make the difference? As far as those poor people were concerned, the dome was their ONLY RESORT.


Fran

SPetty
09-16-2005, 02:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> Now it is time to rebuild. How big would levees have to be to be certain this can't happen again? Pretty dam high and massive. Will all that effort and expense be forthcoming? It remains to be seen. Will people be eager to rebuild in the areas now being pumped out? Some will and some won't.<hr /></blockquote>Nice post, Vapros. It reminded me of the Great Storm of 1900 in Galveston, TX. It's an interesting story of a huge hurricane, over 8000 lives lost, the building of a seawall and the raising of the city. Lots of old pictures here, too.

http://www.gthcenter.org/exhibits/storms/1900/index.html

The hurricane that destroyed Galveston on September 8, 1900, is the nations's deadliest natural disaster. Although its death toll will never be known precisely, the 1900 Storm claimed upwards of 8,000 lives on Galveston Island and several thousand more on the mainland. In Galveston, it destroyed 2,636 houses and left thousands more damaged.

The initial segment of the Seawall was completed July 29, 1904.

This portion, made of concrete, was 3.3 miles long, 16 feet at its base, and 5 feet wide on top, and 17 feet high. The outer face of the Seawall was curved to carry waves upwards. Riprap was placed along the base facing the Gulf of Mexico to break up wave action. It proved its worth first during the hurricane of September 21, 1909. Its critical test came with the hurricane of August 16, 1915. The seawall dramatically lowered the loss of life and destruction.

A second segment was built between December 1904 and October 1905 to protect Fort Crockett. This portion ran 4,935 feet from 39th to 53rd streets. The Seawall was extended westward to 61st Street in 1927 and 99th Street in 1963.

After the Seawall was completed, Galveston undertook the raising of the grade. The original elevation of that portion of Galveston Island probably averaged around five or six feet above mean low tide. Afterwards, the elevation varied from eight feet along the Bay side or waterfront, to about twenty-two feet at the Seawall or Gulf side.

Barbara
09-17-2005, 05:11 PM
Well the TV coverage and the specials concerning the NOLA disaster spread a lot of blame on a lot of people.

There will be lessons learned from this and hopefully the mistakes will be minimalized in the future.

Barbara

Dagwood
09-17-2005, 09:45 PM
Agreed Barbra. This country has become enbroiled in a compulsion to lay blame for things. While the reaction to the coming storm and aftermath of the same was in our hands, no matter of preparation or reaction could have prevented much of the carnage that happened and is currently happening down there.

We're always going to have to deal with natural distaster. It's a fact of life on this planet. No matter how much we try to reduce the effect of weather and nature on our lives, it's bound to eventually break through the barriers we construct. And with stronger and stronger barriers, when it finally does break through, the effects are usually more catastrophic than they would normally be. Not going into the whole global warming bit, or anything like that either. We can't control the weather, or nature. And even if we did, I believe eventually there would be a reckoning with nature, a backlash so to speak. So instead of trying to lay blame on who dropped the ball in the gulf region, we should just try to help the people of that area rebuild, and get ready to help the victims of next natural disaster that comes.

Qtec
09-17-2005, 10:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Agreed Barbra. This country has become enbroiled in a compulsion to lay blame for things <hr /></blockquote>

Dont they have that right? We all know that the sea defences in N.O were not up to handling a force4 or 5. Years of neglect by all Admins and the failure of local Govt to protect their citizens are not what people are mad about. This Admin has spent billions on Home Security supposedly preparing for national disasters and when one comes along, the response is a farce. I think if you had lost someone in the flood you would like to know how the head of FEMA, who proved to be totally incompetent, got his job.
Was GW thinking about saving lives when he appointed 'Brownie' as head man of FEMA?

Q

Dagwood
09-18-2005, 01:49 AM
Q....you fail to see the reason I said what I did in the post. Sure they have the right. My meaning behind that statement is that this country, (I can only speak for America, as I haven't been to Europe or any other country), is obsessed with the idea of placing responsibility and blame. We point fingers instead of stepping up and just taking the hit on the chin. Why not put all the energy that is going to pointing fingers and placing fault into helping the people who are stranded, injured, and otherwise can't help themselves. By no means am I saying that we should ignore the fact that the response was lacking. But now's not the time. The facts aren't going to go anywhere, and there isn't one person who's responsible for the storm. It's nature. I already stated in my previous post that I think that no matter what precautions we take, nature is going to find a way to circumvent them and cause havoc and destruction, and as a result, there will lives changed and lost. I'm not saying that we shouldn't take precautions to lessen whatever destruction may come, but our energies are better placed helping the people of the gulf region right now. That's the point of my post.

All you want to do is play the blame game Q, and in doing so, you're no better than the politicians who are doing the exact same thing right now. It's just a ruse to push your own personal political agenda. And if you think that having someone blamed for what happened is going to help anything, answer me this. Someone gets blamed, be it Bush, Nagin, or whomever...they get removed from office. Are the people's situation in the disaster zone any better? If you can show that having that happen will impact the lives of the people who were displaced right now, maybe we'll have something to talk about. And saying they'll have better leadership isn't what I'm talking about. Any replacement will be a politician, and you can name a politician who isn't corrupt. So, until then, you're just another political snake in the grass, and not worth any more of my time.

Dags

Fran Crimi
09-18-2005, 09:23 AM
Agreed, Dag. It may very well be impossible to be totally objective in assessing any situation. In everything we do or say, we bring with us our own personal history and experience, as well as what we have come to believe as right and wrong.

The problem is that there are people out there, you refer to them as politicians, who don't necessarily believe the things they are saying, but say them anyway for the purpose of furthing their political party's agenda and for their own personal gain. They go about trying to convince everyone that what they're saying is true, even though they very well know it's not.

This isn't a problem just within the U.S...it's worldwide.

WE decide for ourselves whether or not to believe them. How we decide depends on our own personal background and experiences.

For me, hanging around in poolrooms for 30 years has helped me tremendously in spotting these types, and as Johnny Ervolino affectionally called them, "rat bastards". These type of corrupt people exist on all levels. They could be wearing a suit and tie or in jeans with a pool cue in their hands. Same thing. Same type of person.

The only way to get people like that out of decision-making positions, decisions, btw, that affect the lives of a whole lot of people, is to expose them for what they are. That means getting involved in the uncomfortable position of laying blame. We have to assess what they did or didn't do or they will remain in place to repeat that process and endanger more lives.

Sometimes we'll be right about somebody and sometimes we'll be wrong, but we shouldn't stop the process just to keep the peace and forge ahead. It's too important to the welfare of others living under their jurisdictions.

Unfortunately, we're going to see people laying blame where we don't agree and vice versa. It's part of the process. In the end, from out of all the finger-pointing, will emerge certain things that can't be denied, regardless of one's personal agenda.

I believe that this act of nature was not the only thing responsible for what the people of NO went through. I think that will come out clearly in due time and hopefully will be prevented in the future. But that won't happen if everyone keeps their mouth shut.

Fran

Gayle in MD
09-20-2005, 06:45 PM
Fran, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the responsibility of supplying food and water after a catastrophic disaster was the responsibility of FEMA.

Many conservatives consider the inept federal response to Katrina as a vindication of their lack of faith in government, rather than viewing it as a reason to reconsider their faith in Bush. Whatever one thinks, the majority of the country, according to recent polls, does not think that Bush is doing a good job.

To watch Americans pleading for food and water on rooftops, only to be ignored by a Bush appointee, with, BTW, no experience in disaster response, and a poor job history in general, is a sight that most Americans will not forget. While the local officials are not without fault, this administration, with all its power, has failed miserably to protect Americans, not only in this disaster, but in all aspects of securing our country. Only the most biased could deny that. Bush will pay for this, as well he should.

Gayle in Md.

Sid_Vicious
09-20-2005, 07:37 PM
"Only the most biased could deny that."

Once those levies broke, our federal government had it's duty, plain and simple. Your statement above says the rest...sid

CarolNYC
09-21-2005, 02:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, lots of people are at fault for not preparing or responding in the best way. It really doesn't matter at the moment <hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
don't have a lot of faith in the local or state officials to do a good job dealing with the resulting problems. <hr /></blockquote>

Katrina is the perfect result of PEOPlE NOT HAVING FAITH in their local/state officials!

Fran Crimi
09-21-2005, 10:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> But we could very well be looking at faulty construction here.
-----------------------------------------------------------

In the news today: New evidence shows that the levees may have failed due to faulty design and construction.


Fran

Chopstick
09-21-2005, 12:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> But we could very well be looking at faulty construction here.
-----------------------------------------------------------

In the news today: New evidence shows that the levees may have failed due to faulty design and construction.


Fran <hr /></blockquote>

That's what I expected. Say, are going to be quoting yourself and arguing with yourself like One and Q? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Fran Crimi
09-21-2005, 01:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
That's what I expected. Say, are going to be quoting yourself and arguing with yourself like One and Q? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Ha! That's pretty funny... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yikes, perish the thought... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

Vagabond
09-26-2005, 04:03 AM
Louisiana is very unique state and the politics are unique.The culture and people are unique.If u have knowledge of these people then u will understand the current chaos.
Where else people feel loved and respected to be called ``Coon Ass``.Cajun Folks (Not the Creoles)love to be refered to as ``coon Ass``
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Vapros
09-27-2005, 06:33 PM
Now, in the aftermath of Rita, and the endless TV images of the people of Houston, bumper to bumper as they inch out of town and breaking down and running out of gas and food and water, several astute observers have come to the conclusion that it might not be possible, at all, to evacuate a large city in such a situation. They had plenty of notice, and they vowed to avoid the mistakes recently made in Louisiana, and they had more than one major artery available for evacuation, but it didn't help much, did it?

The best laid plans . . . .

Cane
09-27-2005, 10:30 PM
Ya know, I've not commented on this yet, but think I will now. I have a friend, lifelong friend, who works for FEMA. He was in New Orleans for several days before Katrina hit. The Thursday night, before the hurricane, he called here... He works many disasters and his conversations are usually very short, but this time was different. He went into a 30 minute tirade. He was angry and fearful for the lives on New Orleans citizens. He said that both the mayor and the governor had been warned that this was going to be a devastating storm. He said the mayor simply said they'd use the SuperDome for evacuees. He was told, by this FEMA official, my friend, that the Superdome might not handle the winds and that it could easily turn into a morgue for thousands. He was ingnored. He said that mandatory evacuation was suggested by himself and other federal officials DAYS in advance of the storm and they were ignored. He also said that the Governor was asked to put in official requests for federal troops in advance of the storm. The basis of that denial was that they could take care of their own business. The Mayor was then asked to request federal troops for the city, again, saying they could basically handle this themselves without federal help. He said that after that, the governor's office received two calls from the White House asking the Governor to officially request federal troops for assistance, and the Governor remained of the opinion that they could handle this on a city and state level. Keep in mind that the Federal Government is NOT ALLOWED by law to interfere in State, County or City business without that interference or assistance being officially requested. Well, there is one exception and that would be under the Insurgency Act, which hasn't been invoked since 1906, but that is a DRASTIC action that would have drawn condemnation from all fronts. Who would liked to have seen New Orleans under Martial Law for a few weeks with the Mayor and Governor told to stay the hell out of the way... well, actually, in retrospect, there are probably a LOT of people in New Orleans that would have liked for that to have happened.

My friends last words before he got off the phone to get things as ready as he was allowed to by the state and city officials will forever burn in my mind... "This guy (he was speaking of Nagin) is a fu#%ing idiot! He's going to get thousands of people killed." I didn't know what to say. After a long silence, he said "I have to go." I wished him luck and hung up the phone.

Just thought I'd also copy an AP wire release that was printed in the Picayune, MS Newspaper... this, by the way is NOT a political News Paper, it's a well respected local publication.

NEW ORLEANS (AP) - In the face of a catastrophic
Hurricane Katrina, a mandatory evacuation was ordered Sunday
for New Orleans by Mayor Ray Nagin.

Acknowledging that large numbers of people, many of
them stranded tourists, would be unable to leave, The city
set up 10 places of last resort for people to go, including
the Superdome.

The mayor called the order unprecedented and said
anyone who could leave the city should. He exempted hotels
from the evacuation order because airlines had already
canceled all flights.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at
a news conference, said President Bush called and personally
appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city,
which is prone to flooding.
The ball was placed in Mayor Nagin's court to carry
out the evacuation order. With 5-day heads-up, he had the
authority to use any and all services to evacuate all
residents from the city, as documented in a city emergency
preparedness plan. By waiting until the last minute, and
failing to make full use of resources available within city
limits, Nagin and his administration messed up.

Mayor Nagin and his emergency sidekick Terry Ebbert
have displayed lethal, mind boggling incompetence before,
during and after Katrina.

As for Mayor Nagin, he and his profile in pathetic
leadership police chief should resign. That city's
government is incompetent from one end to the other. The
people of New Orleans deserve better than this crowd of
clowns is capable of giving them.

If you're keeping track, these boobs let 569 buses
that could have carried 33,350 people out of New Orleans-in
one trip-get ruined in the floods.
Whatever plan these guys had, it was a dud. Or it
probably would have been if they'd bothered to follow it.

End of Article

By the way, for those that argue that they never would have gotten New Orleans evacuated by looking at what happened with the evacuation of Houston, keep in mind that the Houston Metropolitan Area has almost 10 times as many people as New Orleans. New Orleans would have been much easier to evacuate, if only action had been taken and advice had been heeded.

Later,
Bob &lt;&lt;&lt;Glad he lives inland and only has to contend with Tornados.

Fran Crimi
09-28-2005, 06:22 AM
Bob, that was a really interesting insight you posted about your conversation with your friend. Thanks for that.

True, Houston is more populated than New Orleans and they did get more people out, but each city has it's own logistic problems. If you compare the percentage of people who got out of each city to the total population of that city, I think we'd find that New Orleans did better. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that half a million people didn't make it out of Houston. Hopefully, they'll realize that and think more along the lines of building hurricane shelters around the city.

Fran

SPetty
09-28-2005, 08:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Hopefully, they'll realize that and think more along the lines of building hurricane shelters around the city.<hr /></blockquote>Even that may not help. My parents and my brother and his family weathered out the storm in Houston. I spoke with my parents the day before the hurricane hit, before we knew it had changed course so drastically, and they said they couldn't even get out of their neighborhood due to all the traffic...

Gayle in MD
09-28-2005, 09:47 AM
Hopefully people will realize that lumping FEMA in with Homeland Security, and then Cutting FEMA funds, and appointing people who were totally inexperienced in disaster control who were political cronies of George Bush to fill the top levels of both Homeland Security and FEMAm all dicisions which were put forth by George Bush, was in fact the bases of all the institutional failures which occurred in handing these natural disasters. We're just lucky that we haven't been attacked by terrorists YET. Events of the last few weeks certainly prove that we are in no position to handle disasters of any kind. Watching Brown lie yesterday, and deny his own failures, and Chernoff, who was top man, and has taken so far NO responsibility at all, is disgusting. The disaster was not manageable, we all agree on that much, but the people who were supposed to step in when disasters occur, were definately incompetent, and were definately appointed by George Bush. That much is not debatable.

Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
09-28-2005, 10:19 AM
Good stuff, Bob !!!

wolfdancer
09-28-2005, 10:21 AM
Gayle, I've decided to coin a new word "femaus"...sorta like famous, but in a negative context....like famous for f***g up

wolfdancer
09-28-2005, 12:12 PM
Here's an interesting link:
web page (http://www.buffalobeast.com/83/lieNO.htm)
The scenario was predicted out a few years ago
I'd hope they take the partisan politics out of the studies of these disasters, and learn something from it.

Fran Crimi
09-28-2005, 01:02 PM
You've got to be kidding. That article is loaded with partisan politics.

I have no problem believing that the the feds cut the funding to LA.

I also believe that FEMA had a disaster plan in place. Would their plan have worked if the state did their part? Maybe yes, maybe no. It'll take awhile to decipher that.

But I have a BIG, HUGE, GARGANTUAN problem with the State Gov't of Louisiana sitting on their backsides, doing nothing, just because their fed funding was cut. If the feds cheated them, then where were all the public displays of kicking and screaming on how the federal government was going to have the blood of the people of NO on their hands?

How much money do they take-in in tourism every year? Not even a small attempt to raise the remainder of the money within the state? NO, INSTEAD, THEY DID NOTHING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM. They performed minimal upgrades that still wouldn't hold up against a cat 4 storm...AND THEY KNEW IT.

No one in the state or city has yet to take responsibility for this negligence. It's absolutely amazing.

I have to say that if Rudy Giuliani was running that state, or even the City for that matter, he would not have rested until he put a plan into place to raise the money to upgrade those levees. And that would have included a national publicity campaign, and constant barraging of the fed gov't, if that's what it took.

You don't just sit back and put the lives of millions of people of your state at risk just because you didn't get what you wanted when you wanted it. FIGURE SOMETHING ELSE OUT. COME UP WITH ANOTHER PLAN. That's what state leadership is about.

Fran

wolfdancer
09-28-2005, 01:27 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you...I was only referencing, the part of the article, quoting a newspaper story, written years before Katrina...it predicted the likely terrible occurences, resulting from such a storm.... now is the time to lay politics aside, and learn from this tragedy.
No one, it seems, was prepared to deal with a storm of this magnitude....least of all the state and local gov'ts.

Ross
09-28-2005, 02:24 PM
The resemblance of that article to an actual AP article is on par with my resemblance to Hugh Grant. And let's just say that unfortunately for me, he and I will never get confused for one another.

Not to be rude about it, but how anyone could not spot this "AP article" as being phony is really beyond my comprehension. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

SnakebyteXX
09-28-2005, 07:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> The resemblance of that article to an actual AP article is on par with my resemblance to Hugh Grant. And let's just say that unfortunately for me, he and I will never get confused for one another.

Not to be rude about it, but how anyone could not spot this "AP article" as being phony is really beyond my comprehension. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

You could be right. Here's what appears to be the original article. This one differs substantially from the one in question after the forth paragraph.


web page (http://www.katc.com/Global/story.asp?S=3775049&amp;nav=EyAzdqAx)

[ QUOTE ]
Mandatory evacuation ordered for N.O.
Posted: Aug 30, 2005, 03:17 AM


NEW ORLEANS (AP) - In the face of a catastrophic Hurricane Katrina, a mandatory evacuation was ordered Sunday for New Orleans by Mayor Ray Nagin.

Acknowledging that large numbers of people, many of them stranded tourists, would be unable to leave, the city set up 10 places of last resort for people to go, including the Superdome.

The mayor called the order unprecedented and said anyone who could leave the city should. He exempted hotels from the evacuation order because airlines had already cancelled all flights.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.
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"There doesn't seem to be any relief in sight," Blanco said.
She said Interstate 10, which was converted Saturday so that all lanes headed one-way out of town, was total gridlock.
"We are facing a storm that most of us have long feared," Nagin said.

The storm surge most likely could topple the city's levee system, which protect it from surrounding waters of Lake Pontchartrain, the Mississippi River and marshes, the mayor said. The bowl-shaped city must pump water out during normal times, and the hurricane threatened pump power.

Previous hurricanes evacuations in New Orleans were always voluntary, because so many people don't have the means of getting out. Some are too poor and there is always a French Quarter full of tourists who get caught.

"This is a once in a lifetime event," the mayor said. "The city of New Orleans has never seen a hurricane of this magnitude hit it directly," the mayor said.

He told those who had to move to the Superdome to come with enough food for several days and with blankets. He said it will be a very uncomfortable place and encouraged everybody who could to get out.

Nagin said police and firefighters would spread out throughout the city sounding sirens and using bullhorns to tell residents to get out. He also said police would have the authority to comandeer any vehicle or building that could be used for evacuation or shelter.
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Here's the abriged version with editorial comments added:

NEW ORLEANS (AP) - In the face of a catastrophic
Hurricane Katrina, a mandatory evacuation was ordered Sunday
for New Orleans by Mayor Ray Nagin.

Acknowledging that large numbers of people, many of
them stranded tourists, would be unable to leave, The city
set up 10 places of last resort for people to go, including
the Superdome.

The mayor called the order unprecedented and said
anyone who could leave the city should. He exempted hotels
from the evacuation order because airlines had already
canceled all flights.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at
a news conference, said President Bush called and personally
appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city,
which is prone to flooding.
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The ball was placed in Mayor Nagin's court to carry
out the evacuation order. With 5-day heads-up, he had the
authority to use any and all services to evacuate all
residents from the city, as documented in a city emergency
preparedness plan. By waiting until the last minute, and
failing to make full use of resources available within city
limits, Nagin and his administration messed up.

Mayor Nagin and his emergency sidekick Terry Ebbert
have displayed lethal, mind boggling incompetence before,
during and after Katrina.

As for Mayor Nagin, he and his profile in pathetic
leadership police chief should resign. That city's
government is incompetent from one end to the other. The
people of New Orleans deserve better than this crowd of
clowns is capable of giving them.

If you're keeping track, these boobs let 569 buses
that could have carried 33,350 people out of New Orleans-in
one trip-get ruined in the floods.
Whatever plan these guys had, it was a dud. Or it
probably would have been if they'd bothered to follow it.
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End of Article

Clearly, 'End of Article' wasn't placed appropriately. Nor was the article presented in its entirety. The editorial commentary is emotion laden, opinionated and is fairly obvious. Doubtful that anyone was trying to pull the wool over our eyes in that regard.

Snake

Qtec
09-28-2005, 07:27 PM
I smell Karl Rove.


Q.....and it stinks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ross
09-28-2005, 08:43 PM
Yeah, I would hope most people would recognize that AP articles don't usually refer to their subjects as "these boobs." lol