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06-20-2002, 07:37 AM
Hi, could you all post your bridge length and follow trough length?
I usualy use about 14 inch from bridge to cueball and 10 inch past it.
I just want to see wich are normal lenghts.
What do you think the pros use?

Karatemom
06-20-2002, 08:21 AM
Don't take this as gospel, I'm only a D player, if that, but my bridge is about 6" from the cb and follow through about 6" past.

Heide ~ still working to perfection

Jay M
06-20-2002, 08:50 AM
you have to use the bridge that feels comfortable to you. Experiment with it a bit. Shorten up your bridge one day and see how you play. Play for a while, don't just hit a couple of balls, it'll take a little bit for your body to adjust itself to the new bridge. You might even want to play that way for a few days. Then go back to your longer bridge. See what happens to your game. It won't take as long to change back because you've been using the same bridge for so long that it's built into your muscle memory.

It really doesn't matter what the pros do because all of them are different. Efren Reyes uses a long bridge. Jim Rempe, Mike Sigel and Buddy Hall use a normal bridge. (I don't know of anyone off-hand that use extremely short bridges). The average bridge is probably 6-8 inches to the cue ball and a 4-6 inch follow through (on a medium speed shot with no spin). Those numbers are just a guess though, I've never actually pulled out a measuring tape during a tournament.

Remember that there may be other reasons for the length of the bridge, a taller person will be more comfortable with a shorter bridge. (howie, do you use a 24" bridge?? j/k)

Jay M

06-20-2002, 09:26 AM
My bridge used to be longer then this actualy.
This 14 inch one seems to be a litle easyer since i can have a longer follow trough this way.
But anything shorter looks weird to me even 14inches looks strange plus this way i can get more maximum power.
I did try a shorter bridge and it seems to be easyer but i think i will practice this one.
When i look from my shooting possition it looks 5 inch, its only when i look from high above the cue that i see i have a long bridge.

06-20-2002, 09:43 AM
soft shot should = short bridge and less follow so you dont double hit cueball as the shots get longer you should lengthen your bridge a bit and follow through a bit more 6-8 inches is generally considered enough follow... also you should hold your butt further back for hard shots and closer in for soft.. think about it as if you were golfing and needed different irons for every shot.. just my not so humble opiniopn

Jay M
06-20-2002, 09:45 AM
here's how I look standing in my normal stance at the center of the table. I'm guessing my bridge is about 8 inches from the cue.

http://207.90.53.76/businesses/testarea/stance.jpg

Jay M

06-20-2002, 09:52 AM
Yes well i dont follow trough more then necessary ofcource but this is the maximum lenght that is available in my arm for when i play hard and use the whole bridge length to accelerate.
On softer shots my bridge will still be about 14 inch but i will only move my arm back from the cueball 3 inches orso, and ofcource follow trough will only be 2 inch then.
It depends on the speed yes.
Sometimes i use shorter bridges and then i wont grip my cue at the end but closer depending on how much shorter my bridge is.

06-20-2002, 09:55 AM
How far do you grip the cue from the end Jay?

Jay M
06-20-2002, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>soft shot should = short bridge and less follow so you dont double hit cueball as the shots get longer you should lengthen your bridge a bit and follow through a bit more 6-8 inches is generally considered enough follow... also you should hold your butt further back for hard shots and closer in for soft.. think about it as if you were golfing and needed different irons for every shot.. just my not so humble opiniopn <hr></blockquote>

I disagree with you a bit. You don't adjust your back hand, regardless of the speed of the hit. On a break shot I am holding the cue in the same place as I am for a slow roll. That's the only way to really be consistent, do the same thing the same way every time, just vary the force, it removes variables from the game.

Soft shot=slower cue movement, not shorter follow-through. The only real short follow-through is when the CB and OB are too close together for a full follow-through. The short bridge is used when the position of the other balls forces you to place your hand closer to the object ball than normal. Other than that, the stroke and bridge don't change.

The more variables you can remove, the more consistent you'll play. Everything that you change for a shot changes the speed you have to move your arm to execute the same shot. Even something as minor as an open bridge vs a closed bridge changes the shot (the amount of friction changes although in a very minor way) if you move your bridge or your position on the butt of the cue, you change the entire shot. How can you practice consistent shots if you are not consistent in the way you address the ball?

A longer follow through is used on the break and for extreme english, but as Kato just found, center english is the way to go whenever possible.

Jay M

Jay M
06-20-2002, 10:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>How far do you grip the cue from the end Jay? <hr></blockquote>

I don't measure it from the end. I use the "vertical arm" principle. When I first get down on the shot, I have the tip right near the cue and my arm is vertical to the ground. I'm sure it is a different place on different makes of cue. On the McDermott I shoot with now, it is near the back of the wrap. On my old meuccis, it was closer to the center of the wrap. My goal with regards to the back hand is to have the arm vertical when it actually strikes the cue ball.

Jay M

06-20-2002, 10:08 AM
Ok, my arm is also about vertical when i hit the ball, but i hold the cue at the end, maybe its because of the 5 extra inches of bridge :-)

Chris Cass
06-20-2002, 10:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr>
I usualy use about 14 inch from bridge to cueball and 10 inch past it.<hr></blockquote>

I doubt it Malcolm, there's no way. Unless your talking male measurments. Then it's right. LOL If your bridge is on average 14" and your follow-through is 10" on average. That puts your bridge hand about near the joint. Sorry, I just can't buy it bud.

Regards,

C.C.~~doesn't believe everything he hears. well, almost.LOL

Chris Cass
06-20-2002, 10:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Karatemom:</font><hr> Don't take this as gospel, I'm only a D player, if that, but my bridge is about 6" from the cb and follow through about 6" past.

Heide ~ still working to perfection <hr></blockquote>

Hi Babe,

I know, I'm not working but these people aren't going to play you for any money. LOLLOL Seriously, your bridge hand is from 4-6" depending on the shot and your follow-through is about the same.

Now as far as a "D" player goes. You can forget that. Your knowledge alone puts you over that. Not to mention, your improving week by week. Granted you haven't picked up a cue in almost 10 yrs. I'd give you 3 mths and you'll top out "C".

HAHAHA, you should see the look, on the faces of the guys your playing in the tourney. You put the fear of God in them. HAHAHAHA You had Lee, sweating buckets. HAHAHAHA He came up to Duaine and told him your way under-rated. LOL That's when Jamie got on the mic and announced, " If you have a complaint about the handicap system, complain to anyone except me or my dad." LMAO

Love,

Chris~~maybe Kato, will buy it? It's only a matter of time.

06-20-2002, 11:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris Cass:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Malcolm:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;
I usualy use about 14 inch from bridge to cueball and 10 inch past it.&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I doubt it Malcolm, there's no way. Unless your talking male measurments. Then it's right. LOL If your bridge is on average 14" and your follow-through is 10" on average. That puts your bridge hand about near the joint. Sorry, I just can't buy it bud.

Regards,

C.C.~~doesn't believe everything he hears. well, almost.LOL <hr></blockquote>

At the end of my stroke there is about 5 inch shaft left.

TonyM
06-20-2002, 02:05 PM
Holy smokes! That's a long bridge and follow through!

I use a 10" brdige and about 4' to 6" of follow through, depending on the shot. And I shorten my bridge for many shots, as well as my backswing.

Tony
-couldn't play with a 14" bridge - not enough talent

Fred Agnir
06-20-2002, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr> Hi, could you all post your bridge length and follow trough length?
I usualy use about 14 inch from bridge to cueball and 10 inch past it.<hr></blockquote>
If you have a 14 inch bridge, and 10 inch past, that means when you finish you're 24" down the shaft. That at the finish area of the shaft for me. You sure you go that far?

06-20-2002, 02:17 PM
Jay I understand why you might disagree with that statement but if what you are saying is true then why dont golfers just use a 3 iron every shot and just vary how hard they hit the ball to make up for it... i find that by changing my grip and bridge i can continue to use more of the same strength stroke on a more consistant basis.... which I myself find much more consistant than trying to slow down my cuespeed

06-20-2002, 02:21 PM
in saying that Jay then you must agree that you do change your grip position on the cue based upon how far your bridge is from the cueball...how could you not make this adjustment?

06-20-2002, 02:22 PM
EXACTLY!

06-20-2002, 02:38 PM
Well it is hard, you have to shoot very precise to get the tip on the ball where you want :-) If you havent played for a while it can be frustrating.
But i want a long stroke because my maximum speed is more that way.
And you need most precision on the hardest shots so if you can get your stroke with long bridge good anough for those shots you dont realy have to use a shorter bridge to get more precision on soft shots.

06-20-2002, 05:12 PM
you are definately on the right track... you can use this little trick shot as a follow through drill to see if you really do follow through that much

START(
%A[3L5%C\0N3%P[3O6%Wa9F3%X\5M7%Y[4D4%Z[4K0%]R3E3%^[0N8

)END

set the balls up as shown so when you hit the cueball it hits the 3 ball and both balls clear out of the way.... see if your cue goes far enough to hit the 1 ball into the side pocket put about a 6 inch gap between the CB and the 1 ball. really informative drill.

Jay M
06-20-2002, 07:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: d0wnt0wn:</font><hr> Jay I understand why you might disagree with that statement but if what you are saying is true then why dont golfers just use a 3 iron every shot and just vary how hard they hit the ball to make up for it... i find that by changing my grip and bridge i can continue to use more of the same strength stroke on a more consistant basis.... which I myself find much more consistant than trying to slow down my cuespeed <hr></blockquote>

Regarding golf: The reason that players change clubs is for distance, granted. There is, however, a very large difference in the speed control that would be necessary with only one club. If all you had was a 3 iron and you used that for every shot, you would have the same situation as you have with pool. They don't make a "slow roll" cue and a "hard roll" cue and a "slam it in the pocket" cue. You only have one cue to work with. Now, regardless of the club being used (with a few exceptions like the putter) the grip is the same... agreed? And a player will have their clubs adjusted so that they can grip all of them the same way and use the same stroke to swing with. They ALSO have to vary their speed on every shot. If a person is in a bunker that is 50 yards from the pin, are they going to hit the ball the same strength as they would if they are 30 yards from the pin? They would probably be using a sand wedge for both shots (yes, they might use a 9 iron for the longer one, but assuming that they use the SW). How would you fit that into the theory?

If you move your hands to different places on the cue and you are shooting the same strength each time, then you have 2 different variables that are in play (not counting the fact that you will still have variations in the strength of the shot based on human inconsistency and other variables). You can't really be positive that you placed your hands in the EXACT spot on the cue that you intend unless you have the cue marked somehow to show you where to place them for each distance. Perhaps something like a guitar fret marking the different strengths. You also open yourself up to variance in your stance because the balance point in the cue is different in relation to your body and your muscles will try to compensate in small ways.

If it works for you, more power to you keep using it. Just don't close your mind to what other people are offering. It's easier to explain "standard" stances and grips than it is to explain "non-standard" stances and grips. A perfect example of that is Tommy "The Crab" Karalis. I don't think there is an instructor out there that would try to teach one of their students to stand and stroke like Tommy does. BUT Tommy is still a VERY strong player and a threat in any tournament.

Jay M

John in NH
06-20-2002, 08:14 PM
Hi Malcolm,

My stroke length depends on the type of game that I am playing, examples of this are as follows:

Straight Pool: Most shots are close and require little movement of the cue ball for position so my bridge is short say 6 to 8 inches with a short follow through say 4 to 8 inches on average this gives me better control.

9 ball: Many shots require more distance for the cue ball to run which usually means a longer bridge and follow through bridge up to 10 inches and follow through up to 10 inches.

Works for me,

John

Patrick
06-20-2002, 08:23 PM
The bridge length depends on how hard shots you play with, if you never need to shoot hard, then a longer bridge is useless and it is bad for accuracy.
For example if you have a 30 cm bridge length, then you would get 30 km/h maximum speed with that bridge length. It depends on how fast your muscle twitch fibers are and how heavy your cue weighs. 1 km/h per cm is the easiest to measure, that is if you will play with knowledge rather than memory and experience.
That is 30 different speeds, with this you can play position inside 33.3 cm circles on the table. 100 speeds is 10 cm circles, that is what good pros have. 3 speeds per km/h.
But they don't have 100 speeds, they almost always shoot with medium shots, so they have about 30 different speeds between 15-25 km/h, 10 speeds less than 15 km/h, 5 speeds more than 25 km/h. They don't need the other speeds so they don't practice them. This means they have only 45 different speeds that they use.

So if you will only use speeds between 15-25 km/h, you don't need a longer stroke than 25cm.

You can use a longer bridge and use a slower accelleration of the cue(which is not as consistent) to get twice as many speeds if done right. For example, with a 35cm bridge where you shoot between 15-25 km/h, you get twice as many speeds, but accuracy gets worse, and when accellerating the cue slower, it will not be as consistent. You will often play the wrong speed, which is not good. If you use a faster accelleration of the cue, it will be more consistent.

Everytime you hit the cueball, the cue is accellerating, the longer the distance you accellerate, the faster the cue moves. This will also create a little more spin.
If you accellerate slow when you hit the cueball, you will contact less of the cueball.
If you look at snooker players, they use a short stroke and they get a lot spin on the cueball,
because they accellerate faster because they have lighter cues compared to pool players.

The heavier the cue, the less the cue bounces from the cueball and this gives more spin because it contacts the cueball longer. But you will need fast muscle twitch fibers to accellerate that fast.
This is not good if you want to be good at controlling speed, because the more the cue bounches from the cueball, the more consistent your speed control will be. Your follow through is more consistent the more the cue bounches from the cueball, but you get less spin.
Another reason why a lighter cue is better is that you need more speed of the cue compared to a heavier cue to get the same result. The heavier the cue, the more speed the cueball gets. For example with a heavier cue, if you shoot with the same km/h with your arm, you get a lot more speed on the cueball. With a cue the same weight as the cueball, the same speed as the cue is transferred to the cueball. If you have twice as heavy cue, twice the speed is transferred. So if you have speeds between 15-25 km/h, that will be 15-35 km/h with the heavier cue.


The follow through should be always the same for consistency, it is unneccesary to use a longer follow through than needed.
The longer the follow through you use, the more accurate you need to be in controlling the same distance everytime.
For example if you use a 20 cm follow through vs a 10 cm follow through. Your errors are doubled with the 20 cm follow through.
10 cm follow through is all that is needed.

Some pool players use a long follow through because their cues are too heavy, they can't stop the cue in the follow through because their triceps get tired after a while and then their stroke starts to get bad. They want to be relaxed the whole time they are playing.
If you try to stop the heavy cue for a 10 cm follow through, then if you are not as strong, you will need to start decelerating the cue before it hits the cueball. This means you will not get as much spin as you would if you were accellerating through the cueball.
The problem with long follow throughs is that you can't make good draw shots, you always shoot at a slight angle and the table will be in the way if you follow through long, this results in bad follow throughs were you drop the elbow, to make the cue change direction upwards after it hits the cloth. Or then you just don't hit as low on the cueball to be able to follow through that long. I have seen many do this.

Patrick

stickman
06-20-2002, 09:34 PM
I use a 6" to 8" bridge length. I have long arms and my grip is behind the linen. If I wanted to use a longer bridge, I'd have to have a longer cue built. I'm not sure how long my follow through is. The top of my stroking arm is stationary. The bottom arm swings like a pendulum and contacts the ball in the straight up and down position. As my arm continues forward, it also rises up toward my chest, causing the tip to go down towards the table. After stroking through the ball, my stroke ends when the tip comes to rest on the table.

Patrick
06-20-2002, 10:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: stickman:</font><hr> As my arm continues forward, it also rises up toward my chest, causing the tip to go down towards the table. After stroking through the ball, my stroke ends when the tip comes to rest on the table. <hr></blockquote>

Why do you use this stroke?

Patrick

Chris Cass
06-20-2002, 10:23 PM
Hi Stickman,

That's me too. My cue is 58 1/2" and I'm 5' 6 1/2" tall. Your taller than I am I'm sure. My hand is approx. 1 fingers off the back of the wrap, on most shots. What ever is 90 according to my shot and amount of cue extending from my bridge is needed. I think if your around 6' you should have a shaft about two inches longer(custom) to get your back hand closer to the wrap. IMO

Regards,

C.C.

stickman
06-20-2002, 10:26 PM
It works for me. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif The only way to finish the stroke without the tip coming to rest on the table would be to drop my upper arm at the shoulder after contacting the cueball, or raise my bridge hand. This just adds another motion that serves no real purpose. If I drop my arm at the shoulder, what happens if I drop it just before I contact the ball? I don't need to worry about such things. If I eliminate all the unnecessary movements and keep my stroke simple, it's easier to be consistant.

06-20-2002, 10:28 PM
But why doesnt the wrap just go to the end of the cue???
I got a cue without wrap now, its useless, i take the cue completely at the end even sometimes only with a few fingers on it and i am only 5'11.

06-20-2002, 10:33 PM
Its not a timed drop like you seem to think, its just the whole arm working.
I stroke my cue completely level.
My stroke is 24 inches long, wouldnt work the way you do it.
How can you play hard with a swinging motion like that.

stickman
06-20-2002, 10:41 PM
It doesn't present any problem at all. My stick strikes the cueball level. Hard shots? I break this way. Next time you see Karen Corr play on TV, pay attention where her stroke ends. /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

Scott Lee
06-21-2002, 12:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Patrick:</font><hr> Why do you use this stroke?Patrick <hr></blockquote>

The best reason is that it is the correct way to stroke through the CB...because that's the way your arm works. The next best reason is that it's the way he was taught to stroke (by me).

Scott Lee

Patrick
06-21-2002, 12:21 AM
The cue shouldn't go downwards in the follow through, you can't get as much spin with this.
You get a downwards stroke if you do that, and you need to aim higher on the cueball because of this! You probably also use little top spin on the break and the cueball will jump a little. But this is because the cue goes down from above, like if you shoot with more angle with the cue.

The cue should be level after the follow through! Look at all snooker players!
Only the lower arm should move, if the cue goes downwards, then you need to stop the cue earlier in the follow through. Or then you grip the cue too far forwards.

When you stroke through the cueball, the cue should go in same direction as when it hit the cueball!!

I thought you were a pool instructor.

Patrick

Scott Lee
06-21-2002, 12:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Patrick:</font><hr> I thought you were a pool instructor. Patrick <hr></blockquote>

I am...and a successful one too!...Something you, sir, are NOT! My students speak to my abilities as a teacher. You can read about many of them right here. Where are the accolades from "Patrick's pool school"? I can answer that for you...they don't exist!

Scott Lee

Patrick
06-21-2002, 12:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr>
I am...and a successful one too!...Something you, sir, are NOT! My students speak to my abilities as a teacher. You can read about many of them right here.
Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>
Yes, that's why they are not pros.

Patrick

06-21-2002, 01:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jay M:</font><hr>
Regarding golf: The reason that players change clubs is for distance, granted. There is, however, a very large difference in the speed control that would be necessary with only one club. If all you had was a 3 iron and you used that for every shot, you would have the same situation as you have with pool. They don't make a "slow roll" cue and a "hard roll" cue and a "slam it in the pocket" cue. You only have one cue to work with. Now, regardless of the club being used (with a few exceptions like the putter) the grip is the same... agreed? And a player will have their clubs adjusted so that they can grip all of them the same way and use the same stroke to swing with. They ALSO have to vary their speed on every shot. If a person is in a bunker that is 50 yards from the pin, are they going to hit the ball the same strength as they would if they are 30 yards from the pin? They would probably be using a sand wedge for both shots (yes, they might use a 9 iron for the longer one, but assuming that they use the SW). How would you fit that into the theory? <hr></blockquote>



ahhhh..... I am glad you asked.... havnt you heard the expression in golf that "they took a full 9 iron" or 8 or 3 or whatever.. what that means is that they hit that ball with normal pace with their grip at the longest part of the club.... now lets say they wanted to be 5 yards shorter.. would they then switch to another club?? no way they would choke down on the club a little to take away a little distance....your sand wedge theory is not the normhere because its only used inside 100 yards or so and is the only club(besides the putter) that might not require a full swing.. but I gaurantee that the choke down method is used alot with that club also.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jay M:</font><hr>
If you move your hands to different places on the cue and you are shooting the same strength each time, then you have 2 different variables that are in play (not counting the fact that you will still have variations in the strength of the shot based on human inconsistency and other variables). You can't really be positive that you placed your hands in the EXACT spot on the cue that you intend unless you have the cue marked somehow to show you where to place them for each distance. Perhaps something like a guitar fret marking the different strengths. You also open yourself up to variance in your stance because the balance point in the cue is different in relation to your body and your muscles will try to compensate in small ways.<hr></blockquote>


you are assuming too much with this jay.. I am not suggesting that the placement of your grip is the only thing you need to do to judge power which it seems you are trying to imply that I am saying. Im only saying that it helps.... when you play pool are your hands exactly on the exact same part of the butt for every shot.... I would bet you a thousand bucks that I would catch your hand near the back when you are going for a power draw from time to time... so if you are going for a softer hit does it not make sense to put your hand forward a bit???

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jay m:</font><hr>
If it works for you, more power to you keep using it. Just don't close your mind to what other people are offering. It's easier to explain "standard" stances and grips than it is to explain "non-standard" stances and grips. A perfect example of that is Tommy "The Crab" Karalis. I don't think there is an instructor out there that would try to teach one of their students to stand and stroke like Tommy does. BUT Tommy is still a VERY strong player and a threat in any tournament.
<hr></blockquote>

Im not the one who closed my mind here... you told me I was wrong about what I said.. and Im telling you that it works for me so how can it be wrong? In my eyes there is nothing that is non standard about this at all.. i see people doing it all the time but they are doing it instinctively I just make a mental note to myself when i have a soft,medium,hard stroke where abouts i want my grip to be.. you can easily accomplish vertical alignment just by bending your forward elbow to compensate. Think also about baseball.. if you want to hit a home run where do you hold the bat?? how bout if you want a base hit??

Jay M <hr></blockquote>

06-21-2002, 01:29 AM
scott... what stifles me a bit about the way stickman explained his stroke is the pendulum part.... nowhere in that post did he mention his elbow dropping at the end in order to give him a straight follow through... if his arm were a true pendulum then there would be no way possible for his cue to end up on the table because if the point of contact in his swing is vertical then with a pendular motion the only way for his arm to go is up.....am I not correct in thinking this??

06-21-2002, 01:32 AM
I think you should film yourself stroking and see if you dont drop that shoulder... I am willing to bet you do

06-21-2002, 01:32 AM
I completely agree with you malcolm

06-21-2002, 01:33 AM
pay attention to her dropping elbow

Jay M
06-21-2002, 07:25 AM
you sir are being argumentative just to be argumentative...

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>.... I would bet you a thousand bucks that I would catch your hand near the back when you are going for a power draw from time to time...
<hr></blockquote>

I'll give you 10 to 1 on your money...
There is a 6 inch area on the back of my wrap where chalk dust has darkened the wrap, that's where my hand goes.

Actually, I've read several of the posts after this one now and as far as I'm concerned, you don't have a clue and you are only trying to bait people. Say what you'd like, it doesn't matter as I am no longer even going to bother to read your posts. *plonk*

Jay M

stickman
06-21-2002, 07:48 AM
In fact I do have film of myself stroking. I had a great instructor that filmed me when I learned this stroke. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif All I can say is that if someone strokes the ball differently and it works for them, well, I'm tickled to death for them. I used to stroke the ball with my whole arm, somewhat like Malculm described. I can tell you without a doubt, that my game has improved considerably since changing my stroke. If you ask the local poolplayers in my area, they will attest to it. /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

Fred Agnir
06-21-2002, 07:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jay M:</font><hr> Now, regardless of the club being used (with a few exceptions like the putter) the grip is the same... agreed? <hr></blockquote>
Not agreed. It seems to me that every golfer out there will change their grip and placement depending on certain shots, especially around the greens where the variety of shots are abundant. Feet placement, type of lie, etc., will force you to change your grip hands. If you didn't, you might break your wrists coming out of the rough , for example.

Not only do I vary my grip hand placement, I vary my grip technique depending on the firmness or softness of the shot. IMO, this is a must. One technique can't cover all situations, can it?

Fred

PQQLK9
06-21-2002, 08:50 AM
Good explanation Patrick...Don (the preacher) Feeney explains that also in his tape #3 "Stroking and Advanced Cueing Techniques"...gonna go and watch it again.

06-21-2002, 09:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jay M:</font><hr> you sir are being argumentative just to be argumentative...<hr></blockquote>

how so??? are you really so brash Jay that if someone does not agree with you you have to challenge them this way???


I'll give you 10 to 1 on your money...
There is a 6 inch area on the back of my wrap where chalk dust has darkened the wrap, that's where my hand goes.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: jay m:</font><hr>

yes jay im sure thats where you hit MOST of your shots its easy for you to deny not ever changing because I have no way of watching you.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: jay m:</font><hr>

Actually, I've read several of the posts after this one now and as far as I'm concerned, you don't have a clue and you are only trying to bait people. Say what you'd like, it doesn't matter as I am no longer even going to bother to read your posts. *plonk*

Jay M
<hr></blockquote>

i dont know who you think you are jay but I dont really give a crap what you think I know or dont know.. I personally read many of your posts with utter amazement that a player of your calibre can be such an airhead when it comes to the teaching of the game. obviously you dont spend much time analyzing yours or other peoples stroke or you would know what you are talking about. likewize I will no longer read any of your uninformative posts.

06-21-2002, 09:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: jay m:</font><hr>
Actually, I've read several of the posts after this one now and as far as I'm concerned, you don't have a clue and you are only trying to bait people. Say what you'd like, it doesn't matter as I am no longer even going to bother to read your posts. *plonk*

Jay M <hr></blockquote>

This is typical of when someone has run out of any good evidence to back up what they are saying to turn to name calling and insults... I will take this post as one of you admitting you are wrong.

SPetty
06-21-2002, 11:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: d0wnt0wn:</font><hr> EXACTLY! <hr></blockquote>Hi d0wnt0wn,

Exactly what? You may want to try using the "quote" option rather than the "reply" option so that others know what you're talking about!

Jay M
06-21-2002, 11:09 AM
Fred,
I was making a point (I'm not a golfer). Yes, there are other shots that come up. maybe I didn't explain it properly.

Given the same conditions, say in the middle of the fairway.

Given that both shots are within the range of the same club, say 190-205 for a 3 wood (that's my range with a 3 wood, although I'm not accurate in terms of getting the ball to go where I want it to.)

I don't see any golfers changing their grip on TV. I see them reducing the amount of backswing or slowing the club.

As I said, I'm not a golfer so I was just trying to use his analogy. I will freely admit that I may be wrong about that. I communicated my point poorly. I should have specified "under the same conditions and within the range for a given club, the grip doesn't change due solely to distance needed"

I also told downtown that he should use it if it works for him and yet he chose to say that I "said he was wrong". The bottom line is that it is like talking to a wall to speak to him and I don't have time for the petty games or resorts to statements like:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccbboard&amp;Number=18542&amp;page =1&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=0&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1:</font><hr>
im sorry I didnt realize that your mom is one of them
<hr></blockquote>

which he addressed to Dr D when she was defending the Lesbian point of view.

or the one (I can't find it at the moment, but I'll hunt it down if needed) where he calls someone a "D" player without ever having met the person.

I find the majority of downtown's posts aggressively obnoxious and ignorant and was simply trying to correct advice that would be either detrimental to a player attempting to advance in the game or at the very least advice that would be difficult to master based on the explanation given.

Jay M

Jay M
06-21-2002, 11:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: d0wnt0wn:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: jay m:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;
Actually, I've read several of the posts after this one now and as far as I'm concerned, you don't have a clue and you are only trying to bait people. Say what you'd like, it doesn't matter as I am no longer even going to bother to read your posts. *plonk*

Jay M &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is typical of when someone has run out of any good evidence to back up what they are saying to turn to name calling and insults... I will take this post as one of you admitting you are wrong. <hr></blockquote>

It is also indicative of someone who no longer cares to waste their time with someone who is flagrantly attempting to begin arguments by using "straw man" and "red herring" arguments in a logical debate. Those are defined as fallacies and I suggest you stop using them if you want to be taken seriously.

BTW, at no time did I say that you were incorrect in your statements, I stated that I would not attempt to teach that method to someone else as it would be nearly impossible to accurately develop in your own game, let alone someone else's. If it works for you, use it.

Jay M

06-21-2002, 11:43 AM
sorry i use threaded mode

06-21-2002, 11:48 AM
by saying that you would not teach that method to someone else you are implying that if i were to each that method to someone else I would be wrong in doing so.. in fact jay that method was taught to me by John Horsefall whose opinion I hold in a much higher regard than yours.... as a matter of fact many people I have talked to that were at that particular seminar have since commented on how useful that one tip was to there "touch" game..... nice quotes you got there jay a pitty you didnt post the ones before them that made me give those replies... i rarely attack first jay but i often attack worse. anyways enough of you I dont here any good debate anymore just some pig headedness on your part.

Scott Lee
06-21-2002, 12:00 PM
Patrick...Your insincere attitude and lack of practical knowledge about how pool actually works, shows up dramatically in many of your posts. Additionally, you seem to be unaware that the MAJORITY of people wanting professional pool lessons have NO aspirations of becoming pro players. You obviously are NO pro, even though you are the self-declared "best in the world", and a real legend in your own mind! LOL I teach all ability players, from beginners to pros, and have NO complaints (but plenty of accolades and compliments) in 23 yrs of teaching! Although the best I ever finished was 3rd in a national tournament, my students have won 17 national championships. What's YOUR claim to fame?...other than being an alien! LOL

Scott Lee

06-21-2002, 12:03 PM
I dunno about patrick but last week i won a free can of coke when i took the rubber out of the cap.

Scott Lee
06-21-2002, 12:07 PM
d0wnt0wn...You are missing something here. When the forearm is vertical at the CB address, and the followthrough motion is completed correctly (without dropping the elbow), because of the kinesiology of the pendulum motion, the grip hand (and the butt of the cue) end up close to, or touching the chest. The bridge hand acts like a lever here, and the tip naturally ends up on, or near the cloth at the completion of the stroke... regardless of where you aim on the CB. This is a very natural motion, exactly like an american military salute (only underhand). Do this yourself, and you should understand what I am talking about. If you want more detail, email me (and include a phone # if you want to talk about it)!

Scott Lee

06-21-2002, 12:59 PM
Nah..if his cue is finishing down, he's not dropping his upper arm and shoulder. I think you've got it backwards, Downtown...if you keep a perfect pendulum stroke with no upper arm and shoulder movement, and you complete the stroke by bringing your back hand up to your chest, the cue will finish downward.

There are two ways to keep the cue level or finish upwards: One, drop your upper arm and shoulder, or two, roll your back hand as the cue is coming through to keep it level.

There is a third way, which Patrick suggests, and that is cut your follow-through, but that results in a poke, and I would never recommend that.

Fran

Patrick
06-21-2002, 04:28 PM
It isn't a poke, look at ALL snooker players, 10 cm follow through is all that is needed if you can decelerate the cue fast enough! If you can't, then you need to drop the elbow more.
I get more draw and spin on the cueball than anyone else in the world.
There is another player in my pool room who also uses a very short follow through, he gets lots of draw on very soft shots, more than anyone else in the world, and he is better than Efren Reyes. Because of this consistent short follow through, he can play position on the cm, sometimes mm!
He can break the fastest in the world also.
Because when you have fast muscle twitch fibers, you can accellerate and decelerate the cue faster!!
I don't want to reveal too much of the secrets.

Patrick

Patrick
06-21-2002, 04:32 PM
It is you who don't know anything about pool, I know everything. I could never believe you teach a stroke like that!! This again proves things about pool players.
What is your iq? You seem to think that winning is the most important thing, rather than skill.

Patrick

Patrick
06-21-2002, 04:39 PM
Good advice: Don't argue with people smarter than you, even if you know you are right.

Patrick

Patrick
06-21-2002, 04:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> Patrick...Your insincere attitude and lack of practical knowledge about how pool actually works, shows up dramatically in many of your posts. Additionally, you seem to be unaware that the MAJORITY of people wanting professional pool lessons have NO aspirations of becoming pro players. You obviously are NO pro, even though you are the self-declared "best in the world", and a real legend in your own mind! LOL I teach all ability players, from beginners to pros, and have NO complaints (but plenty of accolades and compliments) in 23 yrs of teaching! Although the best I ever finished was 3rd in a national tournament, my students have won 17 national championships. What's YOUR claim to fame?...other than being an alien! LOL

Scott Lee <hr></blockquote> Imagine you are living on a planet with only apes, and you are the only human there, then one of the apes say that to you! Is this fair?

Patrick

Patrick
06-21-2002, 05:06 PM
There is only one good way to play pool, THE PERFECT WAY!

http://vp3.0catch.com/lessons.htm#6
Pros all have different strokes, because that's what they started playing with, and didn't want to change when they were used to it. Many say that you just need to feel comfortable, this is very wrong! It doesn't matter much what your stance and stroke is like, it will become comfortable after practice. So all the pros at pool are comfortable because they have practiced playing that way from the start.

Why have a bad stance and stroke that is comfortable than the perfect stance and stroke that is also comfortable? A better stroke accuracy means that your mental game can develop more, and you will become a better pool player!

Patrick

Patrick
06-21-2002, 05:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Nah..if his cue is finishing down, he's not dropping his upper arm and shoulder. I think you've got it backwards, Downtown...if you keep a perfect pendulum stroke with no upper arm and shoulder movement, and you complete the stroke by bringing your back hand up to your chest, the cue will finish downward.

There are two ways to keep the cue level or finish upwards: One, drop your upper arm and shoulder, or two, roll your back hand as the cue is coming through to keep it level.

<hr></blockquote> Why is he bringing the hand to his chest, he must have a very bad stance. http://vp3.0catch.com/lessons.htm#6
Of course you need to use the wrist in the stroke, didn't you know that??

Patrick

Patrick
06-21-2002, 05:18 PM
Snooker players who play pool drop the elbow a little because the balls are little bigger than in snooker.

Patrick

Patrick
06-21-2002, 05:21 PM
I have had all these stance and stroke problems when I was a beginner that you have now. But nobody helped me here, I asked many times in this message board 3 years ago. I don't want the same thing happen to someone else.
This is why I am here, to help you and make you save a lot of time that I wasted.

<a target="_blank" href=http://vp3.0catch.com/lessons.htm#6>http://vp3.0catch.com/lessons.htm#6</a>
Lessons and secrets about the mechanical part of the game:

If your mechanical part of pool is bad, your mental part of the game will not help much. Patrick will help you with pictures and videos to help you understand more about the stance and stroke.

Don't make the same mistakes as Patrick did, he has wasted thousands of dollars and many years which didn't help his game at all. Patrick will share all the mistakes he did and give advice on how you will avoid them!

He has all mistakes about the stance and stroke written down so he knows how to fix those slumps when they come up. He knows what the perfect stance and stroke is!

The mechanical part of pool is the easiest part of pool! Because you don't need to experiment on your own, Patrick has all knowledge already that he will share with you!

Pros all have different strokes, because that's what they started playing with, and didn't want to change when they were used to it. Many say that you just need to feel comfortable, this is very wrong! It doesn't matter much what your stance and stroke is like, it will become comfortable after practice. So all the pros at pool are comfortable because they have practiced playing that way from the start.

Why have a bad stance and stroke that is comfortable than the perfect stance and stroke that is also comfortable? A better stroke accuracy means that your mental game can develop more, and you will become a better pool player!

The price will be the amount secrets told, there is no time limit. Patrick will give you the secrets through e-mail. With pictures and videos to make you fully understand. When you have bought all secrets from Patrick, you will have the perfect stance and stroke!!

The price depends on how valuable each secret is. E-mail Patrick for more information.

EZMark
06-21-2002, 06:38 PM
The BCA teaches 10 to 12inch bridge length with the proper stroke the cue tip will follow thru beyond the object ball 4 to 6 inches.Thnx EZMark

06-21-2002, 06:53 PM
but why would you want your cue to go up and down instead of straight back and forth??? if the point of contact is not exactly vertical then you would be hitting more bottom or top spin then you desired too?? no???

06-21-2002, 06:59 PM
i wouldnt prescribe to the pendulum motion myself as it seems to me that by having upward motion with your stroking arm you are risking raising your cue off of your bridge hand especially if your grip is too tight (which it shouldnt be but noones perfect all the time) maybe this is why alot of players use a closed bridge???? maybe the dropping of the elbow allows open bridge players(me) not to have to need a closed bridge? these are questions im just looking for interesting answers

Alfie
06-21-2002, 09:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr> but why would you want your cue to go up and down instead of straight back and forth??? if the point of contact is not exactly vertical then you would be hitting more bottom or top spin then you desired too?? no??? <hr></blockquote>
Here is the thinking on that.

At address, say your tip is 3/8" from the CB and the cue in your back hand is 14" straight down from your elbow (the low point of the pendulum swing). Also suppose an 8" bridge and then another 40" to the back hand.

By the time the tip moves forward of this position 1/2" it has collided with the CB and sent it on its way. As the cue at the back hand moves forward that same 1/2", it is raised about 1/100" due to the upward pendulum swing. It is so small because of the relatively flat "sweet spot" at bottom of the swing. The bridge hand acts like a fulcrum. The tip drops as the butt rises. The ratio of bridge length and distance between the hands (1/5) indicate a tip drop of roughly 1/500" over that 1/2" interval. Close enough. And you must coordinate only a minimum of moving body parts with this technique.

cheesemouse
06-21-2002, 09:23 PM
I don't mean to be a stick in the mud but didn't they build a machine "Iron Willy" that can, I assume, hit a perfectly level stroke??? I had heard that the machine got no better action than your average "B" player.

Scott Lee
06-21-2002, 09:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: d0wnt0wn:</font><hr> but why would you want your cue to go up and down instead of straight back and forth??? if the point of contact is not exactly vertical then you would be hitting more bottom or top spin then you desired too?? no??? <hr></blockquote>

d0wnt0wn...No, you wouldn't. What I teach is a natural movement, that allows the use of the cue as a projectile, rather than a club. Finesse is using the weight of the cue, speed, and timing to accomplish the task, as opposed to muscle. This is how a finesse stroke works, imo. Where you contact the CB is controlled by your bridge. If you do something different that works for you, then by all means, continue to use it. My way works for me, and thousands of others. It is the essence of what I call "Natural Pool"!

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
06-21-2002, 09:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Patrick:</font><hr> Good advice: Don't argue with people smarter than you, even if you know you are right.

Patrick <hr></blockquote>

Now, if you could only follow your own advice! LOL

Patrick
06-21-2002, 10:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr>Now, if you could only follow your own advice! LOL <hr></blockquote>Nobody is smarter than me. <a target="_blank" href=http://vp3.0catch.com/tera.htm>http://vp3.0catch.com/tera.htm</a>

Patrick

06-21-2002, 10:41 PM
on a draw shot i most definately leave my tip down on the table but i most definately dont on a center ball hit.... i understand what you are saying... but to me this pendulum thing seems to inhibit any kind of meaningful follow through.... im not saying this from actually trying it because i like my stroke the way it is and i dont intend to tinker with it but the idea of the pendulum itself seems to baffle me... so if you were hitting a ball with top spin where does the tip end up after that shot???

06-21-2002, 10:43 PM
id be curious to find this out also that being said I would assume the lack of action would be due to the follow through?

stickman
06-21-2002, 10:54 PM
My tip still ends on the table. Because I use a higher bridge for a follow shot, the tip will follow through a little further before coming to rest on the table. There are a few rare shots that don't allow a full follow through, but on most shots, high, low, or whatever, my cue stops on the table. Once you get used to shooting this way, it seems very natural.

06-21-2002, 11:02 PM
i guess different strokes(sorry for the pun) for different folks... I dont think I would ever try to shoot this way Im going to talk with a couple pro freinds of mine to see what they think about all this cause im positive they dont use this method.

Patrick
06-21-2002, 11:09 PM
I assume the robot accellerates the arm fast and then stops the accelleration to keep it at the same speed when it hits the cueball, and because of this, it doesn't have any accelleration for the cue to go through the cueball, this means it doesn't get as much spin, this difference is very very small.
All pool players are accellerating the cue when it hits the cueball, and on some shots they don't use a straight stroke to be able to get more spin. I don't want to reveal these secrets.

Patrick

Alfie
06-21-2002, 11:38 PM
Quote DKB-- "on a draw shot i most definately leave my tip down on the table but i most definately dont on a center ball hit.... i understand what you are saying... but to me this pendulum thing seems to inhibit any kind of meaningful follow through...."

A-- Well... just explaining the up and down thing which happens with the pendulum swing that you had asked about.

IMO, follow through is to ensure accuracy and consistency in where and how fast you hit the CB by not decelerating the cue until the CB has left the tip?

The CB is on the tip for only about 2 mm of travel before it leaves. I'm 5' 10". I get about 7" of follow through (5" past the CB) without dropping my elbow or shoulder (of course, more when I do). Is that too little in your opinion?

Quote DKB-- "im not saying this from actually trying it because i like my stroke the way it is and i dont intend to tinker with it but the idea of the pendulum itself seems to baffle me... so if you were hitting a ball with top spin where does the tip end up after that shot???"

A-- I ain't sayin'. :-)

06-21-2002, 11:54 PM
Yes follow trough is just to decelerate the cue after you hit the ball.
If you wouldnt have a follow trough you would be slowing down the cue before you hit the cueball ( even without knowing it ) wich would result in inconsistant speed control and a low topspeed.
I made another topic on follow trough but nobody seems to care.

06-22-2002, 12:51 AM
all i know is that when i hit center ball and lets say i follow through 8 inches.. my tip is fairly close to being the same height of of the table as it was when it struck the cueball..... so in the pendulum swing does your cue drag on the table for 6 inches or more??

06-22-2002, 12:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr> Yes follow trough is just to decelerate the cue after you hit the ball.
If you wouldnt have a follow trough you would be slowing down the cue before you hit the cueball ( even without knowing it ) wich would result in inconsistant speed control and a low topspeed.
I made another topic on follow trough but nobody seems to care. <hr></blockquote>


I would not use the word decelerate for that at all.. follow through is to make sure you accelerate through the cue ball... anything that happens after that must be deceleration because eventually the cue stops.... but to say that you must decelerate after contact sends the wrong message to any beginers that might be reading this post

06-22-2002, 01:20 AM
why?
Decelerate after you hit the cueball not before.
Thats the whole reason for follow trough.
People thinking i just have to hit the ball and then stop will accelerate the cue to 20km/h and back to 5km/h before they hit the ball.
All you think is i have to stop the cue there, what you dont know is the distance of deceleration needed to stop there, you do that subconciously, so thats the result.

Alfie
06-22-2002, 06:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: d0wnt0wn:</font><hr> so in the pendulum swing does your cue drag on the table for 6 inches or more?? <hr></blockquote>
Ken, try it yourself. Do it a couple of times in slo-mo and a few times at normal speed.

Jay M
06-22-2002, 07:09 AM
rofl, we talked about this before Patrick, but having an IQ society which you start and asserting that your IQ is "unmeasurable" doesn't stand up. kindly scan the results of one of our limited "standard" tests so that we can see that others agree that your IQ is immeasurable. BTW, there are two different ways that an IQ could be immeasurable... too high for the test OR too low for the test. In either case, there is special wording used. Let's see the proof Patrick, then more people would take you seriously.

Jay M

06-22-2002, 08:26 AM
I don't think that's the reason for the closed bridge. I've used an open bridge plenty of times with a pendulum arm swing and haven't had a problem. I used to think the closed bridge was a power thing...more stability for power shots, but I've seen snooker players play pool (with regular sized pool balls) with an open bridge and get plenty of power. I've noticed that 3-cushion players use mainly closed bridges, and with the heated tables they have today, they don't hit the balls nearly as hard as years ago.

Beats me...maybe it's just the way players learned how to play.

Fran

06-22-2002, 10:39 AM
just hit the ball with aceleration the rest looks after itself you give yourself way too may things to think about

06-22-2002, 10:42 AM
maybe more people would take you seriously jay if you took that ugly ass picture off of here

Wally_in_Cincy
06-22-2002, 11:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: d0wnt0wn:</font><hr> maybe more people would take you seriously jay if you took that ugly ass picture off of here <hr></blockquote>

I'm sure he'd be happy to if you get rid of the irritating animated pimp.

Wally~~ thinks Jay's a handsome fellow /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

Jay M
06-22-2002, 11:17 AM
heh, I never saw the animated pimp, I have sigs turned off.

In any case, there is no need for personal attacks, that is another one of the logical fallacies I was talking about.

I could put other pictures up there, but that is the one that shows up the best at the required resolutions. (BTW, that was taken almost a year ago, I've lost nearly 40 pounds since then.)

Jay M

06-22-2002, 11:47 AM
well at least there is less of you now :O)

06-22-2002, 11:55 AM
You know, its because of people like you that there are way to litle calories in food!
Im always trying to gain weight but dont seem to be able to eat anough :-)

Jay M
06-22-2002, 11:56 AM
Yes, and I even have a face...

Jay M

Jay M
06-22-2002, 12:07 PM
Actually, I started doing some PT (physical training) and running in the mornings with some friends from the Army. I dropped 35 of those pounds in the first month and didn't have to change my diet at all. I went from 219 to 184 over that month.

Jay M

06-22-2002, 12:26 PM
Ok, well im doing training too but im trying to gain mass with it so :-)
But i have to eat 5000kcal a day and 250gr proteins wich is a real problem for me :-)

stickman
06-22-2002, 03:07 PM
Malcolm, Have you tried the powdered protein drink mixes? I'm on peritoneal dialysis and have to eat as much meat and eggs as possible because I lose protein in the dialysis process. I'm not a big eater and can't eat enough protein. Certain brands of the protein mixes don't taste too bad. I mix them up in my blender with a little ice and it's almost like a milk shake.

06-22-2002, 04:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: stickman:</font><hr> Malcolm, Have you tried the powdered protein drink mixes? I'm on peritoneal dialysis and have to eat as much meat and eggs as possible because I lose protein in the dialysis process. I'm not a big eater and can't eat enough protein. Certain brands of the protein mixes don't taste too bad. I mix them up in my blender with a little ice and it's almost like a milk shake. <hr></blockquote>

Yes i know about that but i think its expensive?
Can you tell how much it would be every day for 100gr protein?
Maybe normal brands are cheaper then those they sell in the gym.

stickman
06-22-2002, 04:20 PM
I buy mine at a discount store. (Walmart) Each drink supplies 25 grams. For a months supply, one drink per day is about $20.00. 100 grams is a lot of protein! Are you sure you need that much?

06-22-2002, 05:12 PM
So it would be 20$ a week for me, seems like a lot.
I need at least 200 total so 100 from the drink would be good i think.
Actualy i think chicking isnt much cheaper then this for the amount of protein.
Im gonna look for it :-)

Patrick
06-24-2002, 10:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jay M:</font><hr> Actually, I started doing some PT (physical training) and running in the mornings with some friends from the Army. I dropped 35 of those pounds in the first month and didn't have to change my diet at all. I went from 219 to 184 over that month.

Jay M <hr></blockquote> The only way you can loose that much weight so fast is by losing muscle.

Patrick

Patrick
06-24-2002, 11:23 PM
Knowledge is not intelligence! I score low on IQ tests where you need knowledge. But on tests were you don't need knowledge, I score the highest. I have done many self scoring IQ tests online and scored a few points close to the ceiling of those tests, because you needed knowledge on a few questions in those tests. My average on online self scoring IQ tests is about 180, they don't go higher than that. But the online IQ tests are not accurate.

I have done one real IQ test by Paul Cooijmans, http://members.chello.nl/p.cooijmans/colt/ (http://members.chello.nl/p.cooijmans/evens.htm>http://members.chello.nl/p.cooijmans/evens.htm</a>
His), you can guess the answer as many times as you want, I am currently at question number 6, it is at least 156 IQ score.

For his other number series tests you need a high math knowledge, which I don't have. So this is an unfair measure, IQ should be measured by potential, that's why I have created my Tera IQ society.

If there would be tests that only measures knowledge instead of intelligence, I would get among the lowest in the world.

There is a program that only measures potential, its name is ThinkFAST, <a target="_blank" href=http://www.brain.com>http://www.brain.com</a>, I have wanted to buy this for 2 years, this is why I do pool lessons, so I can buy this.
When I have reached my potential in this game, I know exactly what my intelligence is!


Now you will probably think I lie like everyone else think I do, so I need to give proof again: http://vp3.0catch.com/EvensScore.htm

Patrick

Rod
06-25-2002, 02:19 AM
That is a loooooooong bridge. It depends on the shot.

Jay M
06-25-2002, 05:43 AM
Patrick,

I know exactly what Intelligence is. You are correct, knowledge is not the same. However, I have not seen an IQ test that required knowledge above basic math and simple series. They give those tests to kids in the first grade (6 or 7 years old). I will take a look at the tests you mentioned and see what they say. My point is that you can't say that your IQ is immeasurable without something to back it up. Putting a simple HTML page up with your score is NOT proof. Scanning the results of a real test would be proof. It would be a very easy thing to tell you that my IQ is off the charts as well. In reality it wouldn't mean anything as I am just making an assertion, not showing proof.

There is an old poem, the name of which I have forgotten, which has a line in it that says "Unsung genius is a proverb" That's absolutely true. There are many people out there that are more intelligent than me. There are many people that are less intelligent than me. BUT, I spend every minute of every day working to make myself a better person and to make a difference in the world. Which is more important in the long run, being intelligent or doing something with your life? Intelligence doesn't count for anything at all unless you use it.

Jay M

Patrick
06-25-2002, 11:01 AM
What I mean with unmeasurable is that you can't measure it with IQ tests, because you need knowledge. On very difficult IQ tests you will need to know how to create math formulas and stuff.
<a target="_blank" href=http://members.chello.nl/p.cooijmans/Test_EFG.htm>http://members.chello.nl/p.cooijmans/Test_EFG.htm</a>
Look at the first 13 verbal tests by Paul Cooijmans, you will need to know english words and a lot of knowledge.
Look at the example: 20. A TEMPO : FERMATA :: WILES : ?
How can I answer this question without knowing what the words mean first?? I guess those words have something to do with music.

The 3 Spatial/Logic and 3 Numerical tests are the only ones that I can do. I can do them to prove to you, but it will take a very long time, and I always make stupid mistakes, I almost answered the easy last question wrong on the Easy number series test, but I triple checked my answers so I got it right. That Daedalus test is easy but it will take a long time, and if I wouldn't get every question right, I would kill myself, better to wait after I have finished my sports goals so people will remember me, instead of being remembered as the stupid mental guy who killed himself.

I try to change the earth into a better place too, but all the humans don't understand I am trying to help them!

Patrick

06-25-2002, 11:13 AM
I don't know what any of those words mean. Am I the only one on this board with just an average IQ?

Scott Lee
06-25-2002, 11:56 AM
Patrick...OH! Now, in addition to being the world's best poolplayer, you are also a doctor and dietician? Gimme a break! LOL

Scott Lee

MikeM
06-25-2002, 06:13 PM
Not true Patrick. Add nutrition to the list of subjects you need to work on.

MM

Patrick
06-26-2002, 12:57 AM
You should read about nutrition online before you start harassing and accuse me of being wrong.
You can only lose 1 pound of fat per week! 2 is maximum possible.
I know more about bodybuilding and nutrition than most bodybuilders do!

Patrick

Patrick
06-26-2002, 01:00 AM
You can't lose over 1 pound of fat per week! If you are really fat you can lose 2 pounds a week.
If you lose more weight than that, you are losing muscle.
I know more about bodybuilding and nutrition than almost all bodybuilders do!
READ about nutrition before you start harassing me, you always tell I am wrong when I am right, only because you are jealous of me always being right.

Patrick

Patrick
06-26-2002, 01:25 AM
From sites.

"This also explains why losses of more than 1-1.5 lbs of fat per week are unrealistic."

"Losing more fat than that per week is basically impossible. And, except for extremely overfat individuals, I've rarely seen 2 lbs/week true fat loss happen consistently."


http://www.cyberpump.com/features/nutrimuscle/lyle004.html
"As stated, to lose bodyfat you must consume less calories than you burn. Recall that a deficit of 3,500 calories (more or less) is needed to lose one pound of fat. The typical suggestion is to reduce food intake by 500 calories/day as this should yield a 1 lb fat loss per week. It rarely works out that nicely. This also explains why losses of more than 1-1.5 lbs of fat per week are unrealistic. To lose 2 lbs of fat in a week (often quoted in popular magazines and diet books) requires a 7,000 calorie deficit. To do that you either have to reduce calories by 1000 per day (which is a lot of food not to eat) or increase activity by 1000 calories per day (which is a LOT of activity, the equivalent of walking/running 10 miles for a 150 lb person). Losing more fat than that per week is basically impossible. And, except for extremely overfat individuals, I've rarely seen 2 lbs/week true fat loss happen consistently."


http://www.cyberpump.com/training/trainhard/cutting.html
"The goal is of course to maintain or increase strength levels, while losing fat. This is definitely possible and is best achieved by losing a pound a week. Lose more rapidly than this and you most likely will lose muscle."


http://www.cyberpump.com/training/trainhard/aerobforfatloss.html
"Well, as I mentioned before, cardio is not very efficient in burning calories. Furthermore, excessive cardio will interfere with your bodyís ability to recover from high-intensity strength training. If you must do cardio, Iíd recommend no more than three 30-minute sessions per week at 60-70% of your maximum heart rate. Any more than this and you risk cannibalizing muscle tissue for energy. Like I said before, Iím not going to address the efficacy of cardio training for strengthening the heard and lungs, but in terms of fat loss, it just isnít that effective."


Patrick

Patrick
06-26-2002, 01:26 AM
From sites:

"This also explains why losses of more than 1-1.5 lbs of fat per week are unrealistic."

"Losing more fat than that per week is basically impossible. And, except for extremely overfat individuals, I've rarely seen 2 lbs/week true fat loss happen consistently."


http://www.cyberpump.com/training/trainhard/cutting.html (http://www.cyberpump.com/features/nutrimuscle/lyle004.html>http://www.cyberpump.com/features/nutrimuscle/lyle004.html</a>)
"The goal is of course to maintain or increase strength levels, while losing fat. This is definitely possible and is best achieved by losing a pound a week. Lose more rapidly than this and you most likely will lose muscle."


<a target="_blank" href=http://www.cyberpump.com/training/trainhard/aerobforfatloss.html>http://www.cyberpump.com/training/trainhard/aerobforfatloss.html</a>
"Well, as I mentioned before, cardio is not very efficient in burning calories. Furthermore, excessive cardio will interfere with your bodyís ability to recover from high-intensity strength training. If you must do cardio, Iíd recommend no more than three 30-minute sessions per week at 60-70% of your maximum heart rate. Any more than this and you risk cannibalizing muscle tissue for energy. Like I said before, Iím not going to address the efficacy of cardio training for strengthening the heard and lungs, but in terms of fat loss, it just isnít that effective."


Patrick

Patrick
06-26-2002, 01:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: MikeM:</font><hr> Not true Patrick. Add nutrition to the list of subjects you need to work on.

MM <hr></blockquote>Don't try to delete your post like everyone else do after I have proven something.

Patrick

Patrick
06-26-2002, 01:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> Patrick...OH! Now, in addition to being the world's best poolplayer, you are also a doctor and dietician? Gimme a break! LOL

Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>Don't try to delete your post like everyone else do after I have proven something.

Patrick

MikeM
06-26-2002, 08:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Patrick:</font><hr> From sites.


"Losing more fat than that per week is basically impossible. And, except for extremely overfat individuals, I've rarely seen 2 lbs/week true fat loss happen consistently."

Patrick <hr></blockquote>

Patrick,

When I have more time I will respond more fully and scientifically, but the quote above is the one you should focus on. Extemely fat individuals is the key. The article you link to is written by someone for and about people who are already at a high level of fitness. Bodybuilding nutrition is a higly specific field and very different from "normal" nutrition. The subject of gaining muscle mass while losing weight is particlarly telling. This is very possible in the majority of people, but difficult for the highly trained athlete because of their already low body fat and high activity level. I spent three years as a nutrition science major. I don't claim to know more than anyone about nutrition like you do, but I do have a pretty solid background. I also have lost huge amounts of weight numerous times /ccboard/images/icons/crazy.gif. I am currently trying to do it again. I know how terrible this is on my body, but what can I say? Jay's example is extreme, but I don't think it out of the realm of possibility that the "majority" of this weight loss was fat.

I didn't mean to offend in my earlier post (and I won't dlete it), but please don't think you know everything about nutrition if you focus only on nutrition for bodybuilders.

MM

Patrick
06-28-2002, 08:09 AM
JayM wasn't a sumo wrestler.

Patrick

MikeM
06-28-2002, 09:06 AM
Are you sure?!?

MM...thinking of taking up sumo myself.

Patrick
06-28-2002, 09:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: MikeM:</font><hr> Are you sure?!?

MM...thinking of taking up sumo myself. <hr></blockquote>
"I went from 219 to 184 over that month.

Jay M"

Sumo wrestlers are like 500 lbs.

http://vp3.0catch.com/9.jpg
How much would you guess the guy weighs on this picture?

Patrick

MikeM
06-28-2002, 09:19 AM
Actually Sumo is gaining popularity in the US. The US Amatuer Sumo Associations has various weight divisons. I've seen their competitions on ESPN lately.

As far as the picture, to which alien are you referring? The floating torso or the green headed one with no body? I would guess the green head to be about 7 lbs. and the torso in the 95-105 range.

MM