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View Full Version : Took Up BHE(Or Feel Maybe) Last Saturday



Sid_Vicious
10-10-2005, 12:20 PM
Couple of days ago I decided to let my backhand move in and out depending on the cut right or left, BHE I believe it's called, and getting some amazing results. Thing is, when I moved to Dallas back in 85 my stroke was already using this feel with the swerve of the backhand, and pool school and the instructional information had me change that to a consistently straight stroke. I was noticing other players(with very good games of their own) and many of them allows the backhand to find it's natural feel and direction, even Mosconi on TV today was very obviously using much the same method. Accuracy and position play, especially with power shots just feel very confident now. Who'd-a thunk that something I was told was wrong, something I seemingly already have the skill for but not used on purpose for years, is a tool waiting in the wings...sid~~~feels now that nobody can tell you you're absolutely wrong in the way you do things

Bob_Jewett
10-10-2005, 12:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Couple of days ago I decided to let my backhand move in and out depending on the cut right or left, BHE I believe it's called, and getting some amazing results. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Back hand english refers to two different things. One is aim-and-swoop, in which the cue stick is aimed through the center of the cue ball until the final power stroke and then the back hand is swerved to the side as the stick comes forward to hit the ball. This means that the stroke is crooked. The other is aim-and-pivot, in which the initial aim is through the center of the cue ball, and then the stick is pivotted over -- without the bridge hand moving! -- to get english on the ball, but this is done before the final backswing and power stroke. This means that the final stroke is straight.

I'm assuming you mean aim-and-swoop.

As far as recommended fundamentals, I don't think any instructor could reasonably suggest that you should adopt Cisero Murphy's stroke, even though he was World Champion.

I suspect that you have been playing for too long to try to significantly change your fundamentals. It's hard and you don't have the motivation for it. You may want to spend any "game development" time on other aspects, such as learning new games or improving your "comfort zone" for hard shots.

Sid_Vicious
10-10-2005, 03:26 PM
I am finding that what I am doing is sometimes slightly screwing the cue with some grip rotation, and sometimes with up close shots needing to race whitie way down table, I swerve. It works best when the brain is left out of it and the natural feel runs the show. it is working great for me today, and like I said, I have observed lots of players of stature allowing their backhands to screw around alot, giving them a lot of abilities I feel is a resultant, especially with unusual shape requirements...sid

Bob_Jewett
10-10-2005, 04:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> ... allowing their backhands to screw around alot, giving them a lot of abilities I feel is a resultant, especially with unusual shape requirements...sid <hr /></blockquote>
And this is where we disagree. I think there are almost no shots in which anything other than a straight-through stroke is needed. A slight exception is if the cue stick will hit something on the follow-through. Do you have a specific example of a position shot which cannot be played with s straight-through textbook stroke?

(One thing to note is that a lot of "stylish" players do a lot of funny stuff with their grip hands prior to shooting and then end up coming straight through, so one has to be very careful when watching such players.)

Sid_Vicious
10-10-2005, 05:12 PM
When Mosconi and Cranfield play on the ESPN classics again, notice if you will how Willie cues his hard hit angle strokes....sid

recoveryjones
10-10-2005, 10:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> ... allowing their backhands to screw around alot, giving them a lot of abilities I feel is a resultant, especially with unusual shape requirements...sid <hr /></blockquote>
And this is where we disagree. I think there are almost no shots in which anything other than a straight-through stroke is needed. A slight exception is if the cue stick will hit something on the follow-through. Do you have a specific example of a position shot which cannot be played with s straight-through textbook stroke?

(One thing to note is that a lot of "stylish" players do a lot of funny stuff with their grip hands prior to shooting and then end up coming straight through, so one has to be very careful when watching such players.) <hr /></blockquote>

I agree with you that alot of pool players are all over the road map during there preliminary strokes, however, when they deliver that final stroke it's dead straight.Having said that, many of them use tuck and roll on occasion and also sprinkle in some BHE.


I also agree with you that you can get anywhere on the table using straight through english asumming that you compensate for deflection using this method by contacting the object either ball thick or thin.Nice on paper,however, for some shots very difficult to do.

I'm finding that some power shots (FOR ME) are much more successful using tuck and roll which I'm thinking is the same thing as aim and swoop.

Just watch Buddy Hall and Earl Strickland (and the Phillipinos) how succesful they are with it.Deflection for the most part doesn't seem to be have to be accounted for and potting percision(if you are applying it right) is much much easier.Buddy Hall basically used tuck and roll for almost every english shot he ever applied

I think there's merits to all three(straight thru, BHE and tuck and roll) applications of english and those who are only sticking to one( close-minded) application could very well be missing out on some valuable tools.

In the 2000 WPC Ismael Paez was down to earl Strickland 9-3 in a race to 11. He had the ugliest cueing action I had ever seen.He then twisted(tuck and roll) on all of his english to run rack after rack and beat Strickland 11-9.

My theory is, if it works, why not use it.
RJ

Sid_Vicious
10-11-2005, 06:47 AM
"I think there's merits to all three(straight thru, BHE and tuck and roll) applications of english and those who are only sticking to one( close-minded) application could very well be missing out on some valuable tools."

BINGO! This is exactly where I am finding myself in thought after religiously working the straight stroke for a decade, locked elbow, no swerve method hammered upon by P-school instruction long ago. Being a bit of flamboyant with the cue just fits right.

The tuck and roll phrase is interesting. Thanks for the input...sid

Rod
10-11-2005, 03:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>

I also agree with you that you can get anywhere on the

I'm finding that some power shots (FOR ME) are much more successful using tuck and roll which I'm thinking is the same thing as aim and swoop.

My theory is, if it works, why not use it.
RJ <hr /></blockquote>

RJ, Tuck and roll and a side arm stroke have to be very close if not the same. I've always call it side arm but call it what you want. Heck I even get a little initial parallel english and add some side arm. Its how I grew up playing. No changing now. That's not to say I don't use a straight stroke because obviously we all do. There are plenty of good/strong players and Pro's like you mentioned that do as well. Does it make it right? Well who cares if your consistant and make the balls.

Rod

Rod
10-11-2005, 03:53 PM
Sid if it works and your consistant use it. Keep in mind instructors go after the masses. Besides teaching something like that goes against the grain of why people need a straight stroke. Most players taking lessons are fairly new to pool and something like that would really confuse them.

Rod

recoveryjones
10-12-2005, 06:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> "I think there's merits to all three(straight thru, BHE and tuck and roll) applications of english and those who are only sticking to one( close-minded) application could very well be missing out on some valuable tools."

BINGO! This is exactly where I am finding myself in thought after religiously working the straight stroke for a decade, locked elbow, no swerve method hammered upon by P-school instruction long ago. Being a bit of flamboyant with the cue just fits right.

The tuck and roll phrase is interesting. Thanks for the input...sid <hr /></blockquote>

Buddy Hall refers it to "Tuck and Roll"on his instructional video "the Clock System" He gives a demonstration of how to apply it on that video.

He goes on to state that according to HIM, that it is a much better way to apply english , because straight through english causes to much deflection.Bert Kinister also had an instructional called "the Deflection Tape where he demonstrates tuck and roll as well.He also advocates using it because HE says it eliminate's deflection.
RJ

Sid_Vicious
10-12-2005, 06:55 AM
Is tuck and roll a method applied to draw(bottom) as well????sid

recoveryjones
10-12-2005, 07:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Is tuck and roll a method applied to draw(bottom) as well????sid <hr /></blockquote>

Tuck and Roll can be delivered to any height on the cue ball including bottoms.

To do so:

Basically you aim to cut the object ball into the pocket (aiming low for bottoms)with no english.

You apply the english by either tucking or rolling by coming across the cue ball, rather than straight through it.

It's a co-ordinated( final stroke) movement which requires practice and is not for everyone.Buddy Hall is absolutley brilliant with it.

I have a reasonablly high success accuracy rate using "roll' running english, however, I haven't quite got that inside english "tuck" movement down yet. I can mess that one up bad, so I usually use backhand or straight through english on those shots that require inside english.

Best of luck. RJ

Ps. "roll is starting off stroking normal and stroking away from your body accross the cue ball and tuck is strarting off stroking normal and finishing by "Tucking" towards your body.In that way, english is applied by coming across the cue ball.

c.holtz009
10-12-2005, 08:22 PM
All this time I've been using BHE, and not even realized it!!DUH!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Qtec
10-12-2005, 09:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
He also advocates using it because HE says it eliminate's deflection.
<hr /></blockquote>

Sorry RJ but thats total BS! You cannot eliminate squirt.

Q

recoveryjones
10-12-2005, 11:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
He also advocates using it because HE says it eliminate's deflection.
<hr /></blockquote>

Sorry RJ but thats total BS! You cannot eliminate squirt.

I see your point and tend to agree.

Perhaps Bert K meant it eliminates CALCULATING for the deflection and not deflection itself. I do know with straight on english you have to aim at the object ball thick or thin to compensate for squirt....correct?

With BHE you line up as if to cut the shot in with no English and turn your backhand(left or right) to apply an english lineup (on the cue ball) and then stroke down that new line.There is no calcualting thick or thin(on the object ball) as the BHE does ALL the calculating(for deflection ??) automatically for you.

With tuck and roll being a very simuliar to BHE (same english application concept, different method of delivery) perhaps Bert and Buddy meant that the Tuck and Roll does the calculating for you , I don't know.Perhaps, that's what they mean by NO deflection.

When I get the time, I'll sift through the two instructionals and get their EXACT quotes regarding deflection or lack of.My orginal post was mearly reflecting how I understood the message they were trying to convey with their videos.I do distictly remember words said along the lines of "NO DEFLECTION" and Bert Video Volume 19 "The Deflection Tape"is all about removing the need to worry about (calculating for ?) deflection, by applying english with tuck and roll. That defintly is the theme of that whole particuliar video, for sure...100%.


In the meantime this isn't a deflection disagreement(or agreement) between you and I, because personally I don't know.You and Bert are the Master instructors and Buddy is the Master player.This could be a disagreement between Bob Jewett vs. Buddy Hall and Bert Kinister....LOL....only kidding.


Until I get their EXACT QUOTES....stay tuned sport's fans.This has the makings of one big heavyweight tilt!



/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
RJ

recoveryjones
10-12-2005, 11:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Sid if it works and your consistant use it. Keep in mind instructors go after the masses. Besides teaching something like that goes against the grain of why people need a straight stroke. Most players taking lessons are fairly new to pool and something like that would really confuse them.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

Exactly.

I think those instructors have most likely given Sid some wonderful information.Unless you are co-ordinated like Buddy Hall(regarding tuck and roll) it perhaps best to shoot with great fundamentals.

Tuck and roll can be applied with in the parameters of good fundamentals like Buddy Hall uses. It can also be applied like Paez does with headlifts, body jerks, zero freeze and an ugly finish.He is an exceptionally talented man, most aren't.

There are gifted pool players(like Paez, McCready etc) who are exceptions to the rule , who can get away with things that would absolutley kill most of us.Personally I only sprinkle in a splatter of tuck and roll, otherwise, it could probably end up being really detrimental to my game.
RJ

Qtec
10-13-2005, 04:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
He also advocates using it because HE says it eliminate's deflection.
<hr /></blockquote>

Sorry RJ but thats total BS! You cannot eliminate squirt.

I see your point and tend to agree.

Perhaps Bert K meant it eliminates CALCULATING for the deflection and not deflection itself. <font color="blue"> That sounds better.</font color> I do know with straight on english you have to aim at the object ball thick or thin to compensate for squirt....correct? <font color="blue"> Correct. </font color>

With BHE you line up as if to cut the shot in with no English and turn your backhand(left or right) to apply an english lineup (on the cue ball) and then stroke down that new line.There is no calcualting thick or thin(on the object ball) as the BHE does ALL the calculating(for deflection ??) automatically for you. <font color="blue"> Only if the new Q line crosses the pivot point. </font color>

With tuck and roll being a very simuliar to BHE (same english application concept, different method of delivery) perhaps Bert and Buddy meant that the Tuck and Roll does the calculating for you , I don't know.Perhaps, that's what they mean by NO deflection. <font color="blue"> I think so. </font color>

When I get the time, I'll sift through the two instructionals and get their EXACT quotes regarding deflection or lack of.My orginal post was mearly reflecting how I understood the message they were trying to convey with their videos.I do distictly remember words said along the lines of "NO DEFLECTION" and Bert Video Volume 19 "The Deflection Tape"is all about removing the need to worry about (calculating for ?) deflection, by applying english with tuck and roll. That defintly is the theme of that whole particuliar video, for sure...100%.


In the meantime this isn't a deflection disagreement(or agreement) between you and I, <font color="blue"> I,m disagreeing with Bert K. </font color> because personally I don't know.You and Bert are the Master instructors and Buddy is the Master player. <font color="blue"> I,m not a master Instructor but thanks anyway. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color> This could be a disagreement between Bob Jewett vs. Buddy Hall and Bert Kinister....LOL....only kidding. <font color="blue"> I think Bob would agree with me on this one.</font color>


Until I get their EXACT QUOTES....stay tuned sport's fans.This has the makings of one big heavyweight tilt! <font color="blue">Not really RJ,this subject has been done to death on many forums, including this one! [ and I should know because i,v read most of them! /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif]</font color>



/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
RJ <hr /></blockquote>


Take a straight shot into the middle pocket with the balls about 1 ft apart-OB on the spot. If you now play with extreme E. You will find that the only way to pot the ball in the middle of the pocket is by pivoting ie using BHE!

Qtec

Qtec
10-13-2005, 05:47 AM
http://www.members.lycos.nl/agli2/Dia1RJ1.JPG

If you rotate the whole picture anti-clockwise around the center of the QB you get this.

http://www.members.lycos.nl/agli2/RJweb2.JPG

Qtec

Bob_Jewett
10-13-2005, 09:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> ... Take a straight shot into the middle pocket with the balls about 1 ft apart-OB on the spot. If you now play with extreme E. You will find that the only way to pot the ball in the middle of the pocket is by pivoting ie using BHE! ... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, no. I make the shot not by pivoting but by bringing the cue stick down on the line it needs to be along when I shoot. At no time during the shot is the stick pointed parallel to the path of the object ball (which is the same as the line of centers of the two balls). There is no pivot and no back hand english involved for me.

Qtec
10-13-2005, 10:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> ... Take a straight shot into the middle pocket with the balls about 1 ft apart-OB on the spot. If you now play with extreme E. You will find that the only way to pot the ball in the middle of the pocket is by pivoting ie using BHE! ... <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> To be more accurate, I should have said "you cannot make this shot using parallel English.[ shooting parallel to the line of the pot] </font color>
Well, no. I make the shot not by pivoting but by bringing the cue stick down on the line it needs to be along when I shoot. <font color="blue">OK, I agree. Pivoting starts with lining up the straight shot. </font color> At no time during the shot is the stick pointed parallel to the path of the object ball (which is the same as the line of centers of the two balls). <font color="blue"> Even if you dont physically line up straight, you are still using the shot line as a reference. </font color> There is no pivot and no back hand english involved for me. <font color="blue"> I think we have to define the terminology. As far as I know, there are two ways of playing with E. The Q is either parallel to the line of the shot or its at an angle. As I understand it, if you are not shooting parallel and you are not pivoting, its called using BHE. I dont know what your definition is. What would you call your method? </font color> <hr /></blockquote>


Lets say I shot the ball show in the 2nd diagram. If I gave you my Q and asked you to play the same shot,hitting the Qb on the same spot, would your Qing angle be the same as mine?
I think it would.



Qtec

Bob_Jewett
10-14-2005, 09:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> ... Lets say I shot the ball show in the 2nd diagram. If I gave you my Q and asked you to play the same shot,hitting the Qb on the same spot, would your Qing angle be the same as mine?
I think it would. <hr /></blockquote>
For a given stick and a given amount of spin, the stick must be along a particular line. If we both do the shot correctly, the stick will have been on the same line when we shot. It is remarkable how many people, even some champions, seem to think this very fundamental idea is false.

As to how one gets to that line, that's a matter of training and practice. I think that aim-and-pivot is a crutch for inexperienced players who have not yet developed a feel for the shots. It's a crutch I'm sometimes forced to use with cues that are strange to me.

Further, I think that those who get to the correct line by swooping are crippling their game in the long run.

Qtec
10-14-2005, 09:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> ... Lets say I shot the ball show in the 2nd diagram. If I gave you my Q and asked you to play the same shot,hitting the Qb on the same spot, would your Qing angle be the same as mine?
I think it would. <hr /></blockquote>
For a given stick and a given amount of spin, the stick must be along a particular line. If we both do the shot correctly, the stick will have been on the same line when we shot. It is remarkable how many people, even some champions, seem to think this very fundamental idea is false. <font color="blue"> This is the point I was trying to make with the 2 diagrams. </font color>

As to how one gets to that line, that's a matter of training and practice. <font color="blue">Bob I have played exactly the same way as you since day one! To me it just seemed the logical thing to do. </font color> I think that aim-and-pivot is a crutch for inexperienced players who have not yet developed a feel for the shots. It's a crutch I'm sometimes forced to use with cues that are strange to me.

Further, I think that those who get to the correct line by swooping are crippling their game in the long run. <hr /></blockquote>

I guess my next question is, does the Q line cross the shooting line at the pivot point?

Qtec

Bob_Jewett
10-14-2005, 10:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>... I guess my next question is, does the Q line cross the shooting line at the pivot point? ... <hr /></blockquote>
Not by the way I define pivot point. By my definition, a cue stick has a single pivot point. (This definition assumes that squirt angle is pretty much proportional to offset of the tip and that offset of the tip is pretty much proportional to the angle of pivot.)

The needed line of the cue stick will depend on the speed of the shot, distance to the object ball, slipperiness of the cloth and ball, elevation of the stick, amount of draw or follow, how much the balls throw, etc. For short, hard shots, you can use the pivot point of the stick as your aim-and-pivot point.