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Jim Walker
10-12-2005, 03:54 PM
I've been doing a lot of thinking lately (it usually gets me into trouble) and I've got a couple of questions about 9 ball rules/rulings. I don't know how to make a diagram so I will try to describe the situation.

An object ball is frozen against the rail at one diamond away from the side pocket. Cue ball is off at about a 30 degree angle towards the center of the table and 2 feet away from the object ball. Shooter trying to cut the ball down the rail to the corner pocket shoots "easy" to leave the cue ball near the center of the table. Shooter hit's a "perfect" shot contacting the object ball and rail at the same time. Now the object ball does not reach the corner pocket and the cue ball rolls out to near center table. Is this a foul since he did not contact a rail after hitting the object ball and cue ball at the same time?

Second question:
Object ball near center of table. Cue ball 2 feet away. Shooter tries to "thin" the object ball and have the cue ball roll down the table for a safety. Object ball does not contact a rail but the cue ball hits another object ball which is frozen to the end rail. Cue ball does not contact the rail itself. Is this a foul?
Thank you,
Jim /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Tom_In_Cincy
10-12-2005, 04:42 PM
Your first questions, yes it is a legal shot. ...

World Pool-Billiard Association (http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_pocket)

3.38 OBJECT BALL FROZEN TO CUSHION OR CUE BALL

This rule applies to any shot where the cue ball's first contact with a ball is with one that is frozen to a cushion or to the cue ball itself. After the cue ball makes contact with the frozen object ball, the shot must result in either:

(a) A ball being pocketed, or;
(b) The cue ball contacting a cushion , or;
(c) The frozen ball being caused to contact a cushion attached to a separate rail, or;
(d) Another object ball being caused to contact a cushion with which it was not already in contact. Failure to satisfy one of those four requirements is a foul. (Note: 14.1 Continuous and other games specify additional requirements and applications of this rule; see specific game rules.) A ball which is touching a cushion at the start of a shot and then is forced into a cushion attached to the same rail is not considered to have been driven to that cushion unless it leaves the cushion, contacts another ball, and then contacts the cushion again. An object ball is not considered frozen to a cushion unless it is examined and announced as such by either the referee or one of the players prior to that object ball being involved in a shot.

Second question:

If the sencond object ball has been called 'frozen' it would be a foul, if it had NOT been called 'frozen' then NO FOUL.

But, there is another quesiton that needs to be answered....
How many rails are there to a pool table? (or should it be, how many cushions are there?)

Long rails, short rails, 2 each?

pooltchr
10-12-2005, 08:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> there is another quesiton that needs to be answered....
How many rails are there to a pool table? (or should it be, how many cushions are there?)

Long rails, short rails, 2 each? <hr /></blockquote>

Tom,
You answered your own question. There are 4 rails and 6 cushions on a table with pockets. That's why it states specifically "a cushion attached to another rail".
Steve

SteveFromNY
10-13-2005, 05:31 AM
Wouldn't the first shot be illegal then if the OB did not reach the end rail? Great questiosn btw.

pooltchr
10-13-2005, 06:10 AM
The way the rule is worded "after the cue ball makes contact..." it would have to be a foul. Contacting the cushion and the ball at the same time is different from contacting the cushion after contact.
That's how I would rule on it.
Steve

Tom_In_Cincy
10-13-2005, 08:34 AM
Steve,.... do you know what "Rhetorical" means?

Of course I answered my own question, it was meant to provoke the thought that there is a difference between rails and cushions.

thanks for your 2 cents anyway /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bob_Jewett
10-13-2005, 12:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jim Walker:</font><hr> ...
Second question:
Object ball near center of table. Cue ball 2 feet away. Shooter tries to "thin" the object ball and have the cue ball roll down the table for a safety. Object ball does not contact a rail but the cue ball hits another object ball which is frozen to the end rail. Cue ball does not contact the rail itself. Is this a foul?
<hr /></blockquote>
For your first question, the shot was a foul but it is very difficult to judge whether the object ball was struck first or the cushion was struck first. It is unlikely that you have ever seen the cushion and the ball contacted at the same time. Close? Sure. Same time? Not likely. Often the cue ball will be touching them at the same time, but that's not the same as making contact at the same time, which is what the rule book cares about.

For your second question, unless the object ball was called frozen before the shot, the object ball was not frozen, for the purposes of the rules. The current wording in the BCA/WPA rules is broken and you should check out the proposed rules which I think are worded more clearly.

eales
10-14-2005, 08:17 AM
About the first shot...Wouldn't this be a good place to invoke the rule that if it is a tie, it goes to the shooter?

Jim Eales

Bob_Jewett
10-14-2005, 09:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eales:</font><hr> About the first shot...Wouldn't this be a good place to invoke the rule that if it is a tie, it goes to the shooter? <hr /></blockquote>
It's not exactly a tie. It is a situtation in which the referee may be unable to tell whether the shot (or hit) was good or bad. In that case, I think the rules of different cue sports are different. At pool, the tradition has been to give the undecidable shot to the shooter.

Snapshot9
10-14-2005, 10:16 AM
Plus nowdays, a referee has to be present to call a shot good or a foul, and many times when a 'foul' is committed, a referee isn't there. It used to be the opponent who called
a shot good or not, in them old days. This is still a problem currently in some money matches on calling fouls, especially if each player rules differently. Many a heated
argument has been started over whether a shot was good or not.

theinel
10-14-2005, 02:31 PM
Bob,

Is the WPA/BCA rule revision project you have posted on your site still active? I mean that in two senses, first is the WPA still supporting it and second has it been completed or is still a work in progress?

Thanks,

Bob_Jewett
10-14-2005, 03:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr> Bob,

Is the WPA/BCA rule revision project you have posted on your site still active? I mean that in two senses, first is the WPA still supporting it and second has it been completed or is still a work in progress?

Thanks, <hr /></blockquote>
The WPA Board has reviewed the proposed revision and has made some modifications and has asked for feedback. I haven't updated the on-line version to match the WPA Board's proposed changes yet.