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Sid_Vicious
10-14-2005, 03:36 PM
I have trouble hitting lengthy draw shots, I SUCK! I've seen players jack up and draw nicely, and then I see players stay down and stroke thru for long draws. Neither one of these tactics work for me today, and most of the times I even miss the pocket, which is about to cause me to take the second shot after the draw and simply be conservative and not draw. Is there advice on fixing this, OTHER than buying time from somebody???sid

Bob_Jewett
10-14-2005, 04:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> ... Is there advice on fixing this, OTHER than buying time from somebody???sid <hr /></blockquote>
Sure. As with all problem shots, you have to start with an easier shot and work up. See the progressive practice drills in the Basics Clinic handout on the SFBA website. Do the Level 2 drills, but don't bring the cue ball back farther than the head string, and add distances that require you to bounce off the head cushion. Also, try the Level 4 drill for draw. Those are on pages 9 and 11, but don't forget to read the intro at the start of the drills section.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/basics.pdf

But if you don't see improvement, and can't figure out what you're doing wrong, you will need to get help from somewhere.

Cueless Joey
10-14-2005, 04:31 PM
Relaxed wrist, pull back straight and do NOT drop the elbow.
The tip will dip after contact.

vinnie717
10-14-2005, 05:22 PM
What i did was hold your back hand back farther than normal and follow through far.

wolfdancer
10-14-2005, 08:33 PM
Sid, i like bob Jewett's progressive drills. I increased the length of my draw by using one of Fast Larry's tips....
I shortened my bridge....which seemd to correct my tendency to dip the cue before contact.
And I increased my accuracy by eliminating the "twist" I was putting on the cue, when i tried for power....By resting the shaft against the upper joint of my thumb....it's hard to twist the shaft.
I once asked a great local player, that Bob J. knows..."how do you draw the cueball back the length of the table?"
He told me "when i feel the power, then I shoot"...thanked him for sharing that, and went to the bar and ordered a gin &amp; tonic to digest this "insider's secret" It began to make sense around the third drink.
I also moved my back hand back, like Vinnie...only dfference is, it took me about 60 yrs to figure that out....he did it in only 14

Fran Crimi
10-14-2005, 09:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
I shortened my bridge....

I also moved my back hand back, <hr /></blockquote>


Didn't mean to interrupt...Just wondering...

Do you recommend any particular stretching exercises to limber up for that maneuver?

Fran



http://www.quintovolley.it/squadre0405/dmaschile/promozione/bilba-stretching.jpg

wolfdancer
10-14-2005, 10:22 PM
Damn....you found out my secret limbering up exercise...there go the book royalties. neat photo, by the way...I'll find a good use for that.
Well I understand there is a NYC instructor, what shoots with one foot on the table......maybe that's the secret
on a serious note...short bridge...about 5"...and a grip nearer the butt....works for me
How to draw....was my first post ever here, some years and another identity ago.....got some good replies, but nothing worked as good as the short bridge....it ain't purty, but the ball don't care

Colin
10-15-2005, 02:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I have trouble hitting lengthy draw shots, I SUCK! I've seen players jack up and draw nicely, and then I see players stay down and stroke thru for long draws. Neither one of these tactics work for me today, and most of the times I even miss the pocket, which is about to cause me to take the second shot after the draw and simply be conservative and not draw. Is there advice on fixing this, OTHER than buying time from somebody???sid <hr /></blockquote>
It's not rocket science, just hit the Cue Ball lower.

Get a decent tip and chalk the edges well and practice hitting the CB low enough to be just out of range of a miscue.

I've come across a lot of beginners who just cannot make themselves hit the CB low. They always scoop up, seemingly scared of miscuing, and hit near center ball. I suspect that such people, who cannot contain their sub-conscious reactions, are unlikely to ever become decent players.

Sid_Vicious
10-15-2005, 05:25 AM
There's a lot more to it than that! I woke this morning thinking about the advice given yesterday, went directly to the table for a quick 5 minutes to stroke a 4 foot draw, hit low, jumped/miscued. Chalked again, repeated process, miscued low and jumped the CB off table again. I finally got closer with the two balls, and miscued again. Soooo, I just started shooting angled shots with draw and position, wallah!, no miscues, and the ball was moving nicely. THEN the moderate straight draws were working again, BUT anything with extra distance was instant loss of control again. It has to be an anxiety and loss of stroke, hitting the CB way off center for side english ain't a problem for me, except when I need to hit low with power for a long draw. These long draw shots HAVE to be stroked differently IMO. I'm still working on it, and I do appreciate all advice, yet the theory of simply hit lower and lower doesn't hold up, no matter how much chalk is applied....sid

wolfdancer
10-15-2005, 10:23 AM
Sid, a couple of other thing I did to "cure" myself of the miscues, scoops, stabs, etc
I began by hitting some side english shots...around 9 o'clock,
then gradually moved the contact point down...8:30, 8:00...
until I got to 6:00....not without some miscues though, but by mentally telling myself I was just hitting spin shots, and not draw...I improved
I also practiced aiming low, but with the cue raised slightly on the tip end....that got rid of the scoops.
Well, I still ain't got a world class draw...maybe a working man's draw
From a four diamond distance, I can easily draw back six diamonds....if the planets and stars are aligned properly, from six degrees of seperation, or six diamonds, I can get six or seven diamonds back.
Jacking up on the end rail, going down table to the first diamond and drawing back to the rail..not me "A man's got to know his limitations"
good luck ....each new positive result will erase one of them negatives, and you'll probably end up with a Mike Massey type draw stroke

HALHOULE
10-15-2005, 10:58 AM
WHY THE LONG DRAWS IN THE FIRST PLACE?. YOU ARE AN AMATEUR LIKE THE REST OF THE PLAYERS ON THE FORUM, ARE YOU NOT? LONG DRAWS ARE AS SCARCE AS HEN'S TEETH. WHY ARE YOU SHOOTNG THEM? THERE WAS NEVER AN ALTERNATIVE? I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT.

Jal
10-15-2005, 12:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Colin:</font><hr>...I've come across a lot of beginners who just cannot make themselves hit the CB low. They always scoop up, seemingly scared of miscuing, and hit near center ball...<hr /></blockquote>When I first started playing I was under the impression that you could rip the cloth, probably because I was told this, or saw it in some movie. Frankly, I'm still not too sure. I miscue a lot when practicing draw but never have had this happen. I wonder if anybody has ever seen this occur or if it is purely myth?

Jim

Billy
10-15-2005, 07:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> WHY THE LONG DRAWS IN THE FIRST PLACE?. YOU ARE AN AMATEUR LIKE THE REST OF THE PLAYERS ON THE FORUM, ARE YOU NOT? LONG DRAWS ARE AS SCARCE AS HEN'S TEETH. WHY ARE YOU SHOOTNG THEM? THERE WAS NEVER AN ALTERNATIVE? I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT. <hr /></blockquote>

YOU ARE AN AMATEUR LIKE THE REST OF <font color="red"> </font color> us <font color="red"> </font color> PLAYERS ON THE FORUM, ARE YOU NOT?

it should have read

jmo

Qtec
10-15-2005, 07:38 PM
Your opponent has just missed and left you this pos.

wei (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

START(
%AT0^2%BP0^1%DP3^4%ES5^2%FH9D2%Ho3N0%Ir2N9%LL6^1%P g9D6

)END

Qtec

ceebee
10-16-2005, 07:08 AM
One thing I have discovered on my long draw shots is this. Hitting the cue ball hard &amp; low doesn't necessarily give up a long return draw. The cue ball has too much velocity to overcome, in order to draw back a great distance.

I kinda think the cue ball rises up on top of the cloth, because the cue ball was hit low, thereby being "THROWN a bit", as it approaches the object ball. Hitting the object ball square will also help the cue ball bounce backwards, so the spin can assist in the return.

You might try the softer hit long draw to see if it will work for your stroke.

theinel
10-17-2005, 11:15 PM
I am assuming the cue ball and object ball are the same weight.

If the cue ball is bouncing when it makes contact with the object ball or if it's not a full hit then you may be right but if it's in contact with the table and the hit is full then the speed of the cue ball shouldn't matter because all or most of it's momentum should be transferred to the object ball allowing the draw to take full affect.

As general advice I would say to hit low on the cue ball, with your stick as level as possible, a loose grip, some wrist snap just before impact, and a good follow through. It is very important that your stick is not decelerating, or at least rapidly decelerating, when it makes contact so try to time your cue's impact with the cue ball at it's maximum acceleration/speed.

Rod
10-18-2005, 12:14 AM
Sid, I'll give you my short version. Anyone who wrote start off with close shots is right on the money. You learn how to slowly accelerate the cue plus accuracy is much better. Your building confidence. I'm a firm believer in slow motion. By that I mean go slow, relaxed grip, and go through the c/b. The hit instinct is what kills most power shots of any kind. (your grip pressure increases) Ideally you want it to stay the same as address. The cue speed is way to fast in the beginning (accuracy is a big problem) not just the shot itself but where you strike the c/b which is the cause. Your stroke isn't straight.

Pretend point A is the cue tip, point B is the c/b, and point C is the end of your stroke. A-----B-----C. You want to reach max acceleration (at any given speed) at or a tad before point B but do it through the stroke not all at the beginning. You want to feel like it stays at that speed all the way to point C. In reality it doesn't but the effect of thinking this way may help you. Pace of stroke is why some excell and others don't. Think smooth.

Rod

dr_dave
10-18-2005, 07:40 AM
FYI, you can find even more advice and discussion on effective draw technique in a previous thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=185769&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=&amp;PHPSESSID=). Check it out.

Regards,
Dave

Chopstick
10-18-2005, 08:29 AM
I don't really think there is a solution other than to practice until you find it. It's more of a feeling than anything else. I can't draw the ball like I used to. I am wondering if it might be the cloth. Back in Memphis 25 years ago we used to shoot hits shot. Put a ball into the foot corner pocket and take the cue ball to the head rail. Set the cue ball one chalks width from the head rail. Jack up and make the ball at the other end of the table and draw the cue ball back to the head rail.

Lots of guys could make that shot. We really didn't think anything of it. Louie Roberts used to line up I couldn't even think of making a shot like that now days. Old stroke I guess. Maybe I need some vitamins.

SteveFromNY
10-18-2005, 09:26 AM
I used to have difficulty shooting long draws as well, but discovered that if you follow through to the point that you are "digging" into the table you may get a nicer draw out of it. It still works well for me. Also, what type of cue are you shooting with?

Nostalgia
10-18-2005, 11:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr>stroke a 4 foot draw, hit low, jumped/miscued. Chalked again, repeated process, miscued low and jumped the CB off table again. I finally got closer with the two balls, and miscued again....I'm still working on it, and I do appreciate all advice, yet the theory of simply hit lower and lower doesn't hold up, no matter how much chalk is applied....<hr /></blockquote>
Sid,

Well, the theory is sound. Not to be harsh, but it's all in the execution.

I used to have the same problem: when trying a long draw, I'd miscue. There were a few problems (incidentally discovered by getting a lesson from Fran).

The first was as some others have said, I just plain wasn't aiming low enough. When Fran showed me where I should be aiming, I couldn't believe it. I promptly fired the CB off the table. Which leads us to the second issue:

Not stroking straight through the ball. You may, like me, think you have a straight stroke. But when you go for the long draw, all hell breaks loose. What I realized is, at the end of my draw stroke, I was tightening up my back hand so the butt of the cue pulled up into my chest. What's that do to the tip? Drives it into the felt, and scoops the CB. A smooth stroke with a relaxed rear hand has become the key.

Oh, and practice /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I can now draw a full table from almost a full table away. Once in a while, I even pocket the OB /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hope this helps,

-Joe &lt;- not even going to mention elbow drop...

ryushen21
10-19-2005, 07:19 AM
Hey Sid,

It may have already been posted but here is what i do when i am working on the long draw.

I usually start out with my pretty standard draw drills. CB one diamnond away from the OB: stop stop, 1 diamond draw, 2 diamond, and so on and so forth. Eventually i get out to the longer draws. And i usually try to maintain the same stroke just with a stronger acceleration on the follow through part of my stroke. I usually try to avoid elevating since for me it causes more problems than anything else. Hope it helps some.

Cornerman
10-19-2005, 10:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Is there advice on fixing this, OTHER than buying time from somebody???sid <hr /></blockquote>Along with all of the other advice, clean your shaft and make sure it's smooth.

Fred

Sid_Vicious
10-19-2005, 10:45 AM
I've found great things to work on with this, and mainly today, the loose grip fixes alot.I greatly appreciate the time and effort everyone gave me with this deficiency of current time. I've also recorded myself on the 8mm and found a lot else in foundation, so hopefully I am getting there. The draws already have personality and positive effect after this short time with the self review and the loose grip, which btw is not my normal play-grip pressure. Thx...sid