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View Full Version : Pro tournament etiquette: Lowering the bar - long



Fran Crimi
10-15-2005, 09:19 AM
I've watched the etiquette bar drop lower and lower over the past 30 years of pro tournaments, for both players and spectators --- and the officials, too. The interesting thing I've noticed is that the bar does go back up again if the event is 14.1.

The problems started back in the early 80's with 9 Ball events. Sharking was running rampant among players. My guess is that it was due to the sudden arrival of road players, not knowing or caring how to act in tournaments. Also, there were different 'types' of officials who didn't seem as hell-bent to police them. Promotors were half-reliable and half the time the players just hoped their tournament winnings checks wouldn't bounce.

14.1 Had it's hustlers and road players, but there was always a sense that you had to behave once you donned that tuxedo. Plus, there was a ref at every table. No nonsense would be tolerated. I remember the feeling of wearing that tuxedo. It really did make you feel like you were in a regal atmosphere.

As for the spectators: in 14.1 events, regardless of any remark a pro might direct at the crowd (before he was disciplined by the ref), the audience would remain silent. There was no such thing as carrying on a dialogue with a player. Plus, as a spectator, if you were overheard talking to your friend in the stands you were quickly shushed by the people around you. If you did it again, you were booted out by the ref.

But overall, in 14.1 events, everyone was well behaved. I think it was the combination of the formal attire and constant presence of the refs. As soon as you opened the door to the arena of a 14.1 event, you'd feel the sense of reverence in the room.

With 9 Ball came the casual attire, less policing, more pushing of the envelope by both players and spectators. Things were getting closer and closer to the atmosphere of your local poolroom.

I can't begin to tell you how hard it is to play when you hear people chatting behind your table. Pool requires tremendous concentration and if you haven't experienced the pressure of playing in a pro event, you can't understand how much more amplified the pressure becomes. Yet the spectators chat on. And nobody stops them.

I see that people have criticized Janet Schimmel for shushing the audience during the Earl incident. Earl should have been shut down by a ref, but so should the spectators. In the past, had Earl carried on like that, the crowd would stay silent. The ref would deal with him. I can understand the crowd's anger, but there were better, more effective ways to react, IMO.

Pool is not supposed to be an interactive game between spectators and players. Either you are playing or you are watching. In present day, due to the obvious lack of policing, the spectators have to make a choice. Sit silently while a player throws accusatory comments out at the crowd, and let him make a fool out of himself all by himself---or fall victim to your insulted feelings and allow yourself to join in the frey and add to the chaos. I would have loved to hear that the group of spectators just got up and walked out (at least, temporarily) if a player became abusive. That's what I would have done. But that's JMO. I think that would have brought some strong attention to the officials to get a handle on things.

It works both ways: I can assure you that you have no idea how many times a fine and decent player is faced with the choice of whether to turn around in his chair and ask someone to please be quiet or to not say anything and try to ignore it. You don't know because you don't know all the times the player decides not to say anything. Having been there, I know...It's a lot.

Fran

HALHOULE
10-15-2005, 10:50 AM
YOU CANNOT PLAY GOD AND CONTROL EVERYTHING. IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE ATMOSPHERE AT THE TOURNAMNT, HOIST YOUR FANNY OUT OF THERE. IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT. A TOURNAMENT OF ANY KIND IS NOT AN OPERA RECITAL. GET REAL. SO-CALLED REFINED WOMEN LOOKING DOWN THEIR NOSES SHOULD LOOK ELSEWHERE FOR THEIR SO-CALLED REFINED ENTERTAINMENT, OR LEARN TO DEVELOP A MORE MATURE ATTITUDE, LIKE THE REST OF US COMMON FOLK.

HAL HOULE

wolfdancer
10-15-2005, 11:32 AM
I'd respectfully offer this observation:
Having just returned from the pro golf tournament in SF, where the large crowds became quiet and stopped moving while the shot was executed....I compared that with the recent Pechauer tour stop at Family Billiards in SF:
In the final match between Billy Palmer, and Glenn Atwell,
" a goofy spectator kept sharking both the players..." (On The Wire)
where would you draw the line?

Fran Crimi
10-15-2005, 12:42 PM
I think there are two things that happen when people show etiquette at events: There's the feeling of wanting to do the right thing, and for those who don't especially feel that way, there's the knowledge that an official will penalize you (if you're a player) or throw you out (if you're a spectator).

Many people just don't know any better. That's okay too, as long as there's an opportunity for them to be educated. These days with pool, people don't know what to think or how to act half the time because officials are so inconsistent.

Fran

Tom_In_Cincy
10-15-2005, 12:46 PM
Fran,
"Etiquette" interesting choice of a word to describe yesterday's spectators. I would have used the word 'respectful'. But, compared to today's pool audiences, neither word comes to mind.

Today's spectators can be as ill-mannered, disrespectful and downright nasty when it comes to the present day pool players. Only the very best deserve respect and even they can become irritated at the slightest sneeze.

The difference between the turn of the century, the 1950s and present day pool spectators is social manners. Sorry to say, the past is way more mannered than the present, but then again, the players today are getting just about all the respect they can... and that's not saying much...

Maby the IPT will change all that? ya think?

Leviathan
10-15-2005, 01:01 PM
Hal Houle:

So-called refined women? It isn't a question of refinement or a women versus men thing. Some people like their pool rowdy, others don't. I think pool is more enjoyable when the players and spectators observe basic rules of courtesy, and when tournament officials enforce those rules. I think it's reasonable to try to move tournament pool in that direction. If you don't see it that way, that's fine, but it doesn't justify the insulting tone of your reply to the original post.

Alan Salmon

Jal
10-15-2005, 01:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr>... SO-CALLED REFINED WOMEN LOOKING DOWN THEIR NOSES SHOULD LOOK ELSEWHERE FOR THEIR SO-CALLED REFINED ENTERTAINMENT, OR LEARN TO DEVELOP A MORE MATURE ATTITUDE, LIKE THE REST OF US COMMON FOLK.<hr /></blockquote>

I think that's what she's lamenting, the lack of 'mature' behavior. Recognizing the boundary between your impulses and other peoples rights not to be subjected to them is what characterizes adult behavior, or once did.

Jim

100andout
10-15-2005, 03:36 PM
just a few thoughts:

Lets not forget the people ARE paying to see the event. Not that it gives them a free ticket to act like an idiot, but it beats playing to "0" crowd, and bumps up the payout I would think.

Don't for get, some of the Pros bring the audience into the match by initiating conversation ie. Sigel, Pagulayan, Earl, Vivian, are all known to talk to the public, so maybe some of the folks think it's ok to chat since the player started it?

After all, We all learned to play in loud crowded pool rooms, it should'nt really bother us all that much right?

IMHO if I was playing a match with dead silence, I'd hate it. I need a good distraction now and then....Gerry

Fran Crimi
10-15-2005, 05:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 100andout:</font><hr> just a few thoughts:

Lets not forget the people ARE paying to see the event. Not that it gives them a free ticket to act like an idiot, but it beats playing to "0" crowd, and bumps up the payout I would think.

Don't for get, some of the Pros bring the audience into the match by initiating conversation ie. Sigel, Pagulayan, Earl, Vivian, are all known to talk to the public, so maybe some of the folks think it's ok to chat since the player started it? .........

<hr /></blockquote>

Exactly. I used to love to watch Mizerak's matches, mostly because of his game, but also because of his occasional funny comments to the crowd. Everyone would laugh and then settle down. It was goodwill all around.

Fran

Fran Crimi
10-15-2005, 06:33 PM
Maybe you're right, Tom, that there's a lot more disrespect going on out there as a whole. But that can be dealt with in a tournament just like it was dealt with in the past. I remember guys like Big Steve (not Miami Steve) from NJ, who wouldn't even bother coming into the playing area because he knew he couldn't get away with doing his harassing thing inside while matches were going on.

But I've also noticed a lot of nice people in my travels, who would be only too happy to do the right thing if they only knew what it was.

It'll be interesting to see how IPT handles it all. I believe there are more 'traditional' people lurking in the background of this thing who may not want to tolerate it. We'll see....

Fran


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Fran,
"Etiquette" interesting choice of a word to describe yesterday's spectators. I would have used the word 'respectful'. But, compared to today's pool audiences, neither word comes to mind.

Today's spectators can be as ill-mannered, disrespectful and downright nasty when it comes to the present day pool players. Only the very best deserve respect and even they can become irritated at the slightest sneeze.

The difference between the turn of the century, the 1950s and present day pool spectators is social manners. Sorry to say, the past is way more mannered than the present, but then again, the players today are getting just about all the respect they can... and that's not saying much...

Maby the IPT will change all that? ya think? <hr /></blockquote>

pooltchr
10-16-2005, 03:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
But I've also noticed a lot of nice people in my travels, who would be only too happy to do the right thing if they only knew what it was.
Fran

<hr /></blockquote>

Fran,
As an instructor, do you include etiquette in your course? I include it in all the beginners classes I teach, and an probably going to start adding it to every class. I agree that many players these days don't even realise some of the things they do. Let's raise the bar on awareness.
Steve

Voodoo Daddy
10-16-2005, 05:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I remember guys like Big Steve (not Miami Steve) from NJ, who wouldn't even bother coming into the playing area because he knew he couldn't get away with doing his harassing thing inside while matches were going on. <hr /></blockquote>

Boy its tough being a BIG STEVE...thank god hardly anyone on here knows WHALE stories or I would be a marked man by proxy!!! There is little class in pool anymore..stemming from promotors allowing players to forfit in the middle of a match without fine or spectators woofing at certain players from the rail without being ejected, sad but true.

As far as teaching proper etiquette during a lesson...I always promote it and teach this; "To earn respect is to give it". Sit in the chair, no emotion shown, be a gracious loser and winner &lt;one in the same if you ask me&gt; and never lower yourself to someone elses antics. Promoting class is a teachers responsiblity because the student in most cases are a reflection of their teacher, nuff said!!

p.s...oh HAL, I see your still at it /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif EYEROLL /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Fran Crimi
10-16-2005, 08:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>

Fran,
As an instructor, do you include etiquette in your course? I include it in all the beginners classes I teach, and an probably going to start adding it to every class. I agree that many players these days don't even realise some of the things they do. Let's raise the bar on awareness.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Good question, Steve. I've taught player etiquette, only to have players come back and tell me they felt like fools because they were respectful of their opponent while the opponent didn't give a crap, broke all the rules and got away with it.

It's got to start with the people in charge at league and tournament venues. Then at least the instructors can back it up with education. I haven't been teaching spectator etiquette, but I'm going to start including that as well. Players don't just play all the time. They watch, too.

Fran

Rich R.
10-16-2005, 08:25 AM
Fran, in many ways, the current lack of etiquette and respect reverts back to where people learn to play pool.

In the past, a person would learn to play pool in a pool room where you would hear little more than the clicking of balls. If you did hear a voice, you would hear a second voice telling the first person to be quiet.

I, for one, would welcome back those times.

Today, most people learn to play pool in a bar or a sports bar/pool room, with extremely loud music and people constantly talking and yelling. The people never do learn the proper etiquette, from the past, and if you try to educate them, you are laughed at.

This may be a sign of the times in which we live, because people, in general, have a lot less etiquette and respect.

In a tournament situation, players like Earl, and a few others, must first respect their fellow players and the audience, before they will receive the respect they deserve. JMHO.

Sid_Vicious
10-16-2005, 09:03 AM
That brings up a question Fran. Do the pros playing on TV hear any of the on-going commentary that we viewers get to hear? Seems that if they heard even a nuttering of the commentary that it would be a distraction...sid

Barbara
10-16-2005, 09:07 AM
Actually Sid they commentators are sitting behind plexiglas panels so the players can't hear them.

Barbara

TedKaufman
10-16-2005, 01:57 PM
I could not agree more with what Fran said about etiquette. And for anyone who witnessed the fabulous US Open 14.1 tounaments in the Roosevelt Hotel ballroom in NYC, they know exactly what she's talking about. That was pool playing and spectating at its highest level. You might occassionally hear Mike Sigel talking to himself, or Miz lamenting to the crowd, but ONLY when they were at the table. I never recall even once a seated player utter a word. And certainly, with the exception of applause for a great shot or safety (yes, NYC crowds appreciated great safety play) or a hallmark run of 100, the crowd was dead silent. It was a matter of respect, on the players' part and the audience's part, and, yes, that is a matter of etiquette.

With the popularity of 9-ball and movies like The Color of Money, where smart-assed, stick-twirling dimwits became a part of pool, etiquette has indeed taken a back seat. Part of it is the nature of the games. Straight pool requires a great deal more concentration from the players and spectators. Conversely, 9-ball requires no more than a kindergartener's counting ability to follow. It's also a great fit for the "hurray for me" attitudes prevalent today and for the immediate gratification those of that attitude find appealing.

In any case, back to Fran's point. Tournament pool is a different animal than playing in a bar or a pool room. In a bar or most pool rooms, music is blaring, people are making all manner of noise. Yet we find a way to concentrate and filter out what becomes nothing more than loud white noise. It's all loud, so nothing stands out. But in a tournament, where there is relative quiet, voices from a fellow competitor or an audience member are very distracting. Neither should ever be tolerated.

If you've paid to be a spectator at a tournament, it does not give you the right to act however you like. Entry to such an event carries with it a responsibility to act in a respectful manner. You are not attending a football game; it is not Karokee; you are not the star. So shut up, watch and learn, which is hopefully why you paid to attend.

BCgirl
10-16-2005, 02:48 PM
Well said Fran! I truly belive that the antics of players and fans at some events bring the game into disrepute.

I've said before on this forum that I think that blatant sharking and bad sportsmanship in top tournaments should result in disqualification, but the fact is that where these incidents hav occurred, the ref's were either not up to it (snooker refs unaware of rules), or didn't have the guts to enforce it.

Personally, I think some degree of audience interaction is a good thing, and the audience will, largely, follow the tone. At the same time, I think that, since players need to play under terrible conditions, like noisy casino's, or in the next table to the local favourite, or under TV lights, it's part of the game to be able to tune that out.

Ultimately, it's the referee and TD's responsibility to properly penalise the players for sharking and unsportsmanlike conduct, and settle the crowd, or eject fans if they're getting out of line.

Unfortunately, it takes time to change the playing atmosphere and weed out the sort of people who shark and shout, and capitalize insults, but it's just plain common decency (and common sense).

BCgirl

Barbara
10-16-2005, 04:04 PM
Well Fran, you've given me more to think about and say in my next Player's Meeting speech. I usually ask that they be respective of their opponent and not to try to engage them in conversation and to please not talk to the surrounding spectators because that could be misconstrued as soliciting coaching. And I like to ask the spectators to stay out of the playing area, but in some venues, that won't work because the room is not set up for spectating in the first place.

But you're right. The spectators shouldn't engage in any behavior that distracts the player.

OTOH, the players shouldn't try to interact with the audience, either.

Barbara

Fran Crimi
10-16-2005, 09:17 PM
Everyone seems to basically agree that we could do with more courtesy all around at competitive pool events.

I think it's important for people who are leading our game into the future to not get confused as to what constitutes "progress." Another word that gets tossed around a lot is "modernization." Both can be good words and both can be catch-alls to rationalize negative stuff going on.

Here's an example: The WPBA is a great organization and I'm proud to be a member, but they can do better. Many people know that over the past few years, they've taken up pumping rock music through speakers at WPBA events. My immediate reaction was horror, but I wanted to keep an open mind and find out what the logic was to this new tactic. So I asked the powers that be.

I was given different reasons from different people: "We're trying to modernize the game" --- "We want to make it more of a fun venue for the spectators," --- "We need to drown out the noise of the crowd," --- "It's progress," --- "The players really like it."

Not this player.

There are so many things wrong with playing music at tournaments that I can't even begin to list them. I did fight the issue to the best of my ability, however, I had no chance. I was clearly in the minority.

To me, it's like throwing out a piece of classic furniture just because it's old, not because it lost it's beauty or it's function, but simply because time has passed.

Fran

Scott Lee
10-17-2005, 09:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> As far as teaching proper etiquette during a lesson...I always promote it and teach this; "To earn respect is to give it". Sit in the chair, no emotion shown, be a gracious loser and winner &lt;one in the same if you ask me&gt; and never lower yourself to someone elses antics. Promoting class is a teachers responsiblity because the student in most cases are a reflection of their teacher, nuff said!!<hr /></blockquote>

Tap, tap, tap, Steve! AMEN!

Scott Lee

Snapshot9
10-17-2005, 10:36 AM
Pool Etiquette is important, even in local Pool rooms.
I hate to being playing a money game, and next to me is some
loudmouth who visits a Pool room once every 3-4 months, and
likes to show off what a brilliant attention seeking cusser
they are, raising their voice as to draw everyone to their
past situation where they were wronged by someone. Teenaged
girls can be the worse. They don't care about Pool, they are just there because some boy is there, or to get attention drawn to them so everyone will think they are hot.
Personally, I find women much more attractive when the WHOLE
person is attractive, which includes good manners and having
a brain. A lack of good manners as tells me you are dealing
with a lower class of individual, or one that is not educated. That used to matter to people, but today who knows. Some teenagers today are just over the top, and the
female gender has changed the most, and not for the better.
Considerations for Pool: some of interactions in Pool is just personalities of the spetators and players. Some players ease their tensions by commenting, others do not.
I think for any tournament, local or otherwise, people need
to be aware of what normal conduct should be. Big tournaments need to have a big sign posted on behavior guidelines for spetators before entering the gallery area.
Spectators that ignore the guidelines should be warned once,
and evicted the 2nd time, whether they payed or not.
Courtesy and good manners are suppose to be taught in the
home, it is not the school's responsibility, not anyone's
else responsibility. If you post the rules for behavior in
writing, you can always fall back on it when ejecting someone who fails to observe them. Professional events should be especially monitored. I not sure whether the
Pool referee should be one or not, maybe they need to appoint a special person to insure proper behavior.

ras314
10-17-2005, 10:49 AM
I think a little constant background noise is helpful. Much worse than reasonabley quite music is dead quiet interrupted by the occasional loud noise.

I had the worst concentration buster I can ever remember last week end in a bar tournament. Bunch of noisy people watching foot ball games when a seperate batch jumped up and hollered just as I was shooting the 8. Turns out they were watching on baseball on a big screen just behind me. Not much you can do but grin and bear it. What seems to bother me is any sudden change in the noise. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

wolfdancer
10-17-2005, 11:50 AM
I for one am glad that they are lowering the bar....at my age i could get seriously injured falling off of a bar stool. I already have numerous injuries from past experiences.
Further on down this thread, folks are complaining about the "distractions" when they are playing. They should see the Vietnamese play pool....while one guy is shooting, everyone else is leaning on the rail. i like it, it's a very social way to play.
And speaking of distractions, I recently played in a bar tournament, that was also a strip club. Do you know how hard it can be.....to be shooting, while less then 30 ft away, an attractive, early 20's blonde is dancing in the nude? Well, she weren't a natural blonde, I surmised, but it did affect my stroke....
Then I played in another tournament, where they also had Karaoke featured. Karaoke sounds like a Japanese word to me, but evidently one of the rules is you have to sing country, not that any of the folks what got on the mike, could actually sing.
Well there was this one song, what brought tears to my eyes.
It seems this guy wrote what he thought was the perfect country song,then realised he hadn't mentioned Mom,Bars, fightin' etc. so he added a few lines about a guy going on the train to meet his Mama, who's being released from prison that very day, and tragically, the train runs over her.What a tear-jerker.
Reminded me of when my own Mom got released early on good behavior. Dad would have been so proud of her, but if he hadn't been foolin' round in the first place, Ma would never have shot him.
I didn't know the title of the song, so i emailed a gal i know, and she sent me this:
The song you refer to is: "You don't have to call me darlin', darlin'". I know it well. See, I'm an ex- trucker, it is mandatory to have a cdl and know country songs, lol."
I think this pool and Karaoke thing might catch on, or maybe the strip pool ....but I doubt the Vietnamese style will.

SPetty
10-17-2005, 01:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I didn't know the title of the song, so i emailed a gal i know, and she sent me this:
The song you refer to is: "You don't have to call me darlin', darlin'". I know it well. See, I'm an ex- trucker, it is mandatory to have a cdl and know country songs, lol."<hr /></blockquote>Now you just go on and write that little honey back and tell her the real name of the song is: "You Never Even Called Me By My Name" and then ask her who wrote it. It says right in the song (as recorded by David Allen Coe) who wrote it!

SPetty
10-17-2005, 01:42 PM
I admit I could be a better behaved spectator and I'm sorry. I get so excited just being there that my adrenaline starts a'pumping and I'm on vacation and I'm having a good time and I bought my ticket and even if I'm whispering, I'm noisier than I should be.

To all the pros that have heard me and those I was with, particularly Vivian Villareal in Vegas this year, I'm sorry. I'll try to be better and quieter.

It's difficult, though, when you're in an area full of people who share the same passion that you have for the game, and they get it and appreciate it and enjoy it and understand it and want to talk about it! I don't get that in my normal life and when I am in that environment, it's difficult to remain subdued and stifled and silenced.

I have never ever played pool in a public place where there wasn't a lot of background noise. When I see the stifling silence that those players have to deal with when they're in the finals, I feel for them. I have to believe that they'd be much more comfortable if there was background noise like the crowd murmering than the total deafening silence that they're subjected to.

Anyway, again, I'll try to do better.

wolfdancer
10-17-2005, 05:44 PM
That little honey tips the scales over the 230 wt limit, for wimmen.

onepocketfanatic
10-17-2005, 09:05 PM
In general the manners of most folk have deteriorated over the years IMO. Cell phone users motoring in the fast lane at 45MPH, same Cell phone users talking at the register instead of checking out like they have an ounce of sense. Basic manners like please and thank you are used much less than in years past. A lot of people seem to feel that if it is costing them money, or they are spending their money, they are entitled to act any way that pleases them regardless of how it affects others. They forget the old rule "treat others as you would like to be treated".
Fortunately the hall that I visit has all of the 9 footers in a single room, and the speakers have been disconnected by managment at the request of the players (there are about 25 tables in the other 2 rooms where there is loud music).
Personally I don't go to bars and clubs to play becasue 1) I don't like to play on small tables,and 2) I don't want to hear a lot of drunk loud mouth idiots along with a lot of loud music (I don't mean to imply that ALL people that go to these places are loud, and idiots, but there is always one in the crowd).
In general the 9 foot room is fairly quiet, and fairly serious. There are probably 15-20 players that play in the 9 foot room on a regular basis, we all know each other by name, and we all treat each other with a fair degree of respect. You come into our 9 foot room talking loud, and getting stupid, you will be asked (or told) to leave by more that one person I can assure you!

CarolNYC
10-18-2005, 02:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I can't begin to tell you how hard it is to play when you hear people chatting behind your table. Pool requires tremendous concentration and if you haven't experienced the pressure of playing in a pro event, you can't understand how much more amplified the pressure becomes. Yet the spectators chat on. And nobody stops them <hr /></blockquote>

Fran,
As you said, pool requires tremendous concentration-when you say "people chatting behind your table", are you speaking of the vip seats ?The ones directly on the railing? I think soemone mentioned that these people are PAYING to come see you play-there are no signs that say,"Silence"-
In my seoncd match at the US Open in Albuquerque, I was down 8-2, as I was slowly coming back, we became the only table left playing,(you mentioned pressure) so I knew all eyes were upon us-when I made it hill-hill, my opponent missed and I proceeded to pocket the balls-on the winning 9-ball, I got down to shoot it,lost that so-called "concentration" because I heard someone in the crowd, stepped back, looked around and SMILED, put my head down and took a deep breath and fired that sucker in for the win-
I agree if the people are being totally abusive and directing negative comments AT you, but just to chat, it shouldnt bother you at all-but there is ONE thing I dislike-when a states local and favorite player is in the tournament and their rooting for their favorite, they should NOT applaud when their opponent misses-when Kim vs. Anna, the crowd would yell "yeah" when Kim missed,but being the PROFESSIONAL she is and having intense mental control, she posketed the winning ball and just held her stick up and said "yeah!"-it was beautiful!
I, for one, love to interact with the people and just try my best to focus -I would never pay to sit in an arena and have to be totally silent-
Carol

catscradle
10-18-2005, 04:47 AM
I'm not as "long in the tooth" in pool as some of you because well raising my family I had neither money nor time for pool the way I would have liked. However, I do have a few years on me (59) and believe that society at large does not show the same level of etiquette or politeness in general as it used to. It is not about tuxedos and referees either, it is about what people are taught when they are being raised and what they experience with their peers. I'm the very beginning of the baby boom, we were the generation of the hippies. We dressed in rag-tag jeans and torn tie-dyed t-shirts, and, except for the militant hippies who thought they were making a social statement, we were (are) still polite and respectful to other people. It really gripes me when people try to blame the state of peoples behaviour today on the clothing they wear, it is the people inside the clothes that make the difference not the clothing. Where it broke down I don't know, but I feel strongly that the percentage of people ignorant of how to behave around other people is far greater in my children's generation than in my own generation.
That said though, I played a kid the other night in an APA match from Lowell, MA which is certainly on the lower end of economic spectrum, but his behaviour in terms of politeness and etiquette were certainly second to nobody in my generation. So there is hope afterall.

Vagabond
10-18-2005, 06:33 AM
and ridiculous.In general I strongly agree with the need to create an environment so that the player can concentrate.In the recently concluded US Open event,for one match I sat in the last row of bleachers and far away from the tables.It was saturday evening.when the player was preparing to shoot the match winning 9,I said ``see I told u guys that she is going to win(Our group was routing for her but they did not think that she could win that match)Immediately the players sponsor and a close friend immediately reacted and made signals asking me to hush.I was at the farthest point in the room on the bleacher and I did not even shout.
That is unreasonable and ridiculous expectation from the audience.Next time I am not going to join that group.
Vagabond

Rich R.
10-18-2005, 06:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr> That is unreasonable and ridiculous expectation from the audience. <hr /></blockquote>
Vagabond, I have to agree with you. Although I do believe something has to be done about the major distractions, there is a limit on just how quite an audience can be. Some would like a tournament room more quiet than your local library, but that is just not going to happen.

I agree that a pro player needs an incredible amount of concentration when playing, however, total silence is a practical impossibility. I have to ask, would it not benefit a pro player to practice in an environment where there was a certain amount of noise and distractions? Wouldn't that environment make them more immune to the small distractions?

DickLeonard
10-18-2005, 07:27 AM
Fran I always like the the method that Charlie "The Bear" Scalise used to teach unruly customers how to behave in his room. When the unruly customer went to the restroom Charlie would follow him in and put a gun to his head and give him the rules of etiquette in his room. I have always maintained that playing in his room was like being in St. Patricks Catherdal. ####

Chopstick
10-18-2005, 07:35 AM
It is different now that it was back in the eighties. The way players treat each other now is ridiculous. Last year I was playing A Florida Men's Pro event over in Tampa. I was at the table in the middle of a run when I noticed that the players on the tables on either side were openly bickering and insulting each other. I walked over to my opponent who was sitting in the chair, who by the way was a very fine fellow, and said "Ya know, I think that we are the two politest fellows in this room." He said "I think we are the ONLY polite fellows in this room."

Nobody wants to watch a bunch of adults acting like that no matter how good they play. Good spirited comments like the Miz, for example used to make, adds to the game experience for everyone. I like to see 'em cut up a little bit.

DickLeonard
10-18-2005, 07:51 AM
Ted I was watching the 1966 Worlds Championship at the Commodore Hotel in NYC when a fellow I knew brought Peter Falk to meet me. He said to Peter no one knows more about straight pool than me, he will explain to you the moves that the player are doing.

We were sitting in the 6 row or so and I tried to talk to Peter but I saw it would distract the players. I asked him to move to the back of the bleechers but he said with only one eye he couldn't see that far so that was it we just watched the match.####

Fran Crimi
10-18-2005, 08:10 AM
I've seen you order waitress service in the middle of your match. In all the years I've been playing in pro events, I've never seen that before. I remember the shocked look of your opponent when you asked her if she'd like anything from the waitress, and then the shocked look again when the waitress came to bring your drink while she was at the table shooting.

No one expects total silence. Just a little common sense.

Fran Crimi
10-18-2005, 08:18 AM
Sometimes people don't realize how loud they are "whispering." I've been shushed before, too. I didn't take it personally. I just quieted myself down.

TedKaufman
10-18-2005, 09:08 AM
My late friend and straight pool mentor, George Makula, told me that back in the 60's you couldn't get Peter Falk out of Julians Pool Room on Manhattan's 14th St. George said Falk was so enamored with pool at the time, he would regularly skip auditions to hang out at the pool room.

Your story, then, comes as no surprise. Falk, a regular "rail bird," probably wanted to watch intently with his one good eye rather than listen during a match with his two good ears.

Cute story, though. I never got to see the matches in The Commodore, sad to say. I've always heard it was a great venue.

CarolNYC
10-18-2005, 09:38 AM
So sorry Fran,
I thought the subject was "audience etiquette"-I dont think I've ever seen a waitress walking around during a pro-event, you may be thinking of someone else!
You take care,now
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

CarolNYC
10-18-2005, 09:41 AM
Howdy there Vagabond,
I just wanted to publicly thank you for that WONDERFUL day/lunch/shopping in Sante Fe! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
And thank you for keeping me at my limit cause I could spent,spent,spent..................LMAO!

See ya soon!
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran Crimi
10-18-2005, 09:47 AM
The subject is player and spectator etiquette. Yes, it was you. If you'd like, let me know and I'll PM you the name of your opponent. You can discuss it with her.

CarolNYC
10-18-2005, 09:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I have to ask, would it not benefit a pro player to practice in an environment where there was a certain amount of noise and distractions? Wouldn't that environment make them more immune to the small distractions? <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Rich,
I think it would-I see alot of players practicing with their Ipods on-I have no idea what their listening to-could be music or rainfall /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif-
Personally, I dont mind interaction as long as its done in a respectable manner-OMG, at the Open, some man in the audience had one of those little handheld machines that mimics phrases (like a laughing machine)and I think what it said was "Oh crap!" and he set it off twice while I was watching a match-NOW THAT, disrespectful!
Love to Cathy!
Carol

CarolNYC
10-18-2005, 09:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
it is about what people are taught when they are being raised <hr /></blockquote>
Tap!Tap! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

CarolNYC
10-18-2005, 09:54 AM
LMAO-well then, I hope I gave the waitress a good tip,ha ha ha
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Fran Crimi
10-18-2005, 10:39 AM
Yup. Comments in good fun add to the experience. It's a matter of exercising good taste and good timing. I think that people who haven't experienced that are apt to take this thread more literally than is meant. This isn't about zipping your mouth shut and never speaking. Even when the Miz was doing his thing with the crowd, someone would occasionally yell something funny back at him. It's hard to resist sometimes. The difference is that it was good natured and things settled down right away.

Do you remember if something strange happened at the table, how the Miz had a way of just turning around and staring at the crowd, not saying a single word, and drive everyone into laughter? That used to kill me. His timing was brilliant. Ervolino had that too, but he'd eventually break down and start laughing. The Miz never cracked a smile.

Fran

Tom_In_Cincy
10-18-2005, 11:03 AM
As most of you know I run the tournaments at Sacramento's Hard Time Billiards. I am fortunate to have a speparate room for tournaments. Eight Nine foot Gold Crowns with very tight pockets (no shims) cut to less than 4 and a half inches.
Stadium style seating for about 140 spectators. The walls have mirrors tilted for table viewing. There are two chairs for each table and a small table inbetween each chair for personal items (drinks, chalk etc.)

There are published tournament rules for the room. Each rule is the 1st warning.

Cell phones OFF, loss of a game off the wire is the penalty. Even if the cell phone is on vibrate, if it goes off and the player answers it, it is loss of game off the wire.

Unsporstmanlike conduct, 1st offence is loss of game, second is DQ and 3rd is banned from all tournaments for a specific amount of time.

The majority of the spectators are very respectful and only a few have been asked to 'tone it down please' and even fewer have been asked to leave.

Of course there are the exceptions, spectators that think they are above the rules. And players that have to talk to the crowd, Ronnie Allen comes to mind. But, I deal with the audience rather than RA. If he doesn't have anyone to chat with, RA is quiet.

It's not perfect, but I've been accused of being the Noise Nazi. After two years, now the spectators are 'shusshing' other spectators... somethings eventually work.

Fran Crimi
10-18-2005, 11:12 AM
Bravo, Tom!!!!

Tap tap tap tap tap tap....and a hundred more.

Fran /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran Crimi
10-18-2005, 11:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Well Fran, you've given me more to think about and say in my next Player's Meeting speech. I usually ask that they be respective of their opponent and not to try to engage them in conversation and to please not talk to the surrounding spectators because that could be misconstrued as soliciting coaching. And I like to ask the spectators to stay out of the playing area, but in some venues, that won't work because the room is not set up for spectating in the first place.

But you're right. The spectators shouldn't engage in any behavior that distracts the player.

OTOH, the players shouldn't try to interact with the audience, either.

Barbara

<hr /></blockquote>

Barbara,

You do a great job already at your events. I've witnessed it. It's hard getting everything perfect in poolrooms. Everything is in such close quarters. I know you're doing the best you can.

Fran

DickLeonard
10-18-2005, 11:19 AM
Ted the Commodore was nicest venue for tournaments I ever was ever at. A practice room with 4 tables, then into the Grand Ballroom with a large bleecher on each side of the room and two tables center stage.

I do remember playing in a couple of qualifers with George back in the 60s.

I spent one afternoon sitting next to LeRoy Neeman watching him draw the action below. That was well worth the price of admission. He later turned them into paintings which appeared in Playboy.####

Fran Crimi
10-18-2005, 11:34 AM
I remember one time the Miz and I were sitting next to each other in the stands waiting for our tables to open up. He had a bad cold and was constantly blowing his nose. Knowing his sense of humor, I leaned into his ear and whispered, "You should really take it outside with all that blowing. You're disturbing the players." Without saying a word he turned and gave me one of his famous stares. I literally had to put my hand over my mouth to not laugh out loud. Then while still staring at me, he reached into his pocket, took out his nasal spray, and squirted me. It was so fast, nobody saw him do it. He never said a single word or cracked a smile, but I had to run out of the room and go laugh in the hall.

Fran

Fran Crimi
10-18-2005, 12:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Fran I always like the the method that Charlie "The Bear" Scalise used to teach unruly customers how to behave in his room. When the unruly customer went to the restroom Charlie would follow him in and put a gun to his head and give him the rules of etiquette in his room. I have always maintained that playing in his room was like being in St. Patricks Catherdal. #### <hr /></blockquote>


Yikes! That's one way to do it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

CarolNYC
10-18-2005, 03:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The subject is player and spectator etiquette <hr /></blockquote>
Fran,
Sonmeone reminded me of an experience we had when we were travelling together-speaking of player behavior and your previous response:
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen you order waitress service in the middle of your match. In all the years I've been playing in pro events, I've never seen that before. I remember the shocked look of your opponent when you asked her if she'd like anything from the waitress, and then the shocked look again when the waitress came to bring your drink while she was at the table shooting.
<hr /></blockquote>
Once again, there are NO waitresses in a pro-event!!!!

2 years ago ,in albuquerque, you were playing the favorite and were up 8-1? missed 8 nineballs due to the wild activity of the crowd for their favorites comeback and I sat quietly-your opponent came back and won 9-8 and we walked out of the arena and you started "screaming at me"-and in all the ONE years of me playing on a pro tour, I will never forget what you screamed/scolded at me in front of many people/players:
"WHERE WERE YOU? WHY DIDNT YOU JUMP UP AND DOWN AND SCREAM FOR ME THE WAY THIS CROWD WAS DOING FOR MY OPPONENT-WHY DIDNT YOU DO WHAT THEY WERE DOING ??????"
Pretty ironic-you want etiquette to increase but then again, you wanted that behavior to be enforced for YOU,hmmmmmmmmmmm, and I do recall a certain pro(OUT OF THE MANY WHO WERE AROUND US) who heard your scolding say to you"your not playing the crowd Fran, your playing the table" and you said "just wait till you play her"
Well, she did play her next and won 9-1

So, I guess since then, your views have changed and I believe that was the last event we travelled together,humph-ironic!!!!
You take care
Carol


"

Rip
10-18-2005, 05:44 PM
SPetty posted: "To all the pros that have heard me and those I was with, particularly Vivian Villareal in Vegas this year, I'm sorry. I'll try to be better and quieter."

Oh yeah, you and your buddy were out of control! You two even caused Vivian V to stare us...I mean...she stared you two down and commented that it appeared we...I mean.."you two seem to having a lot of fun". It was a very tactful combination of her comment and stare that meant "shut the f**k up, I'm trying to make a living here!"
Now pour me another shot of that tequila and rack em SPetty!
Rip~~misbehaved badly and looking forward to doing it again.

Fran Crimi
10-18-2005, 06:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
The subject is player and spectator etiquette <hr /></blockquote>
Fran,
Sonmeone reminded me of an experience we had when we were travelling together-speaking of player behavior and your previous response:
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I've seen you order waitress service in the middle of your match. In all the years I've been playing in pro events, I've never seen that before. I remember the shocked look of your opponent when you asked her if she'd like anything from the waitress, and then the shocked look again when the waitress came to bring your drink while she was at the table shooting.
<hr /></blockquote>
Once again, there are NO waitresses in a pro-event!!!!

2 years ago ,in albuquerque, you were playing the favorite and were up 8-1? missed 8 nineballs due to the wild activity of the crowd for their favorites comeback and I sat quietly-your opponent came back and won 9-8 and we walked out of the arena and you started "screaming at me"-and in all the ONE years of me playing on a pro tour, I will never forget what you screamed/scolded at me in front of many people/players:
"WHERE WERE YOU? WHY DIDNT YOU JUMP UP AND DOWN AND SCREAM FOR ME THE WAY THIS CROWD WAS DOING FOR MY OPPONENT-WHY DIDNT YOU DO WHAT THEY WERE DOING ??????"
Pretty ironic-you want etiquette to increase but then again, you wanted that behavior to be enforced for YOU,hmmmmmmmmmmm, and I do recall a certain pro(OUT OF THE MANY WHO WERE AROUND US) who heard your scolding say to you"your not playing the crowd Fran, your playing the table" and you said "just wait till you play her"
Well, she did play her next and won 9-1

So, I guess since then, your views have changed and I believe that was the last event we travelled together,humph-ironic!!!!
You take care
Carol


" <hr /></blockquote>

Is that all I said? I figured I said something like, How come you didn't jump into the crowd and start beating the hell out of them?

For the sake of people reading...the crowd was cheering a local favorite who I was playing against, and they took it to the most extreme situation I've ever witnessed in a tournament. They were yelling and cheering at the tops of their lungs every time I missed a shot. They became so unruly, jumping up and down, spilling beer all over themselves, that after awhile they didn't even bother to wait until I finished shooting. It was one continuous yell. The TD made one announcement asking them to quiet down and it did absolutely nothing. Never heard from the TD again. It was the first time I almost cried during a match.

I'm pretty sure that the player who had to face that crowd after me didn't just bury her mother three days before, like I did.

I guess that makes me a hypocrite.

Carol, your match with the waitress incident was against Belinda Calhoun. You won the match.

Fran

Barbara
10-18-2005, 06:24 PM
Well here we go Boys and Girls!!

Just what is the correct expected behavior of the crowds? I can see all sides of this because I am at all sides of this at one point or another during my travels and tournaments.

Yes, I truly appreciate support and encouragement from the audience when I am playing. However, it can be discouraging when you are not the favored player and you go to "The Rats" mode.. So now what? Clapping is sharking and should not be allowed? What about vocalizing support from the crowd - just some phrase? No, not if the Tournament Director has clearly stated the case for such. But then how do you "nip it in the bud" when it does start to happen? And when should the TD decide it's happened?

I've been in both situations of being booed and being cheered for. It hurts when you're you're not getting cheered on.

So what is the game plan?

Barbara

LC3
10-18-2005, 11:17 PM
I saw footage of Jimmy Moore playing Irving Crane and was moved by the respect everybody had for the game and for each other. The players were dressed in tuxedos, the crowd was quiet (appropriate applause and oohs after good shots), and the ref was as professional and pleasant as could be. I especially liked that the commentator didn't over-explain things and spoke in a hushed tone. I'd like to see a return to those days, but more footage is as close as I'll get. Actually, I had a similar experience when I watched a tournament in Tokyo.

catscradle
10-19-2005, 04:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LC3:</font><hr> I saw footage of Jimmy Moore playing Irving Crane and was moved by the respect everybody had for the game and for each other. The players were dressed in tuxedos, the crowd was quiet (appropriate applause and oohs after good shots), and the ref was as professional and pleasant as could be. I especially liked that the commentator didn't over-explain things and spoke in a hushed tone. I'd like to see a return to those days, but more footage is as close as I'll get. Actually, I had a similar experience when I watched a tournament in Tokyo. <hr /></blockquote>

Tuxedos suck and are phoney, quiet and respectful is good!

Vagabond
10-19-2005, 05:05 AM
You are wellcome. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Vagabond
10-19-2005, 05:09 AM
I agree.I did not take it personally.What I was meaning to say was that particular group was no fun and I want to be around easy going &amp; fun loving people. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

DickLeonard
10-19-2005, 06:41 AM
Rip long time no read. I have a question for you? Have you ever ran into Jimmy "the Springfield Rifle"Relihan in Vegas?

DickLeonard
10-19-2005, 06:51 AM
Fran yes that was good crowd control, Poor Charlie somone put a gun to his head and pulled the Trigger.####

DickLeonard
10-19-2005, 07:22 AM
Voodoo Daddy I have to repeat this story because it probably marked the Turning Point in my Pool Playing Career.

I was playing Danny Gartner at Queens Golden Cue for a berth in the 1970 Worlds Championship being run by the Prop. of the Golden Cue whose name escapes me [Busone?]. It was two o'clock in the morning when the game started. Previous to the start Danny looked beat he went to the men's room and came out looking rejuvenated. I got off to a big lead then Danny missed a shot and slammed his cue into the floor shattering his butt cap, hitting two ladies in the audience with the flying debris. CueBall Kelly the referee had nothing to say, in my mind I am saying what is wrong with Danny and now instead of playing, my mind is distracted.

Danny's next time at the table he scratched and grabbed the cueball and slammed it into the center of the table just missing the lights over the table. Still nothing from CueBall, at this point my inexperience showed, I should have been calling for Dannys disqualification instead now I concerned with my opponennt going berserk not my playing pool.

Needless to say I ended up losing to Danny, that was the first time I never shook hands with the winner, just packed my cue and left. My chance at playing in the Worlds went out the window.####

SteveFromNY
10-19-2005, 07:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
I guess that makes me a hypocrite.
<hr /></blockquote>

This reminds me of a personal experience playing Fran in a straight pool match some years ago. I was a local amateur at the time and those that I've played or came into contact with (Tony Robles, Ron Parks, Vinny, Carol) all knew me for my etiquette/respect and friendliness at or around the tables. I respect the game and have an equal respect in general for myself and all around me.

At the time, Fran had called me because she was unable to play our scheduled match to which I tried to reschedule with her to the best of my ability but to no avail due to conflicts in both of our schedules. There was a problem also (to which I felt completely bad for) where the telephone number listed for Fran was recited to me incorrectly from somebody at the poolroom. In this time, I had already moved a few things around my own schedule to be able to accommodate her. When I finally reached her with an available date to play, I was scolded over the phone (and left speechless and in shock) due to my own inability (according to Fran) to contact her in time.

I was in grad school at the time and with my full time job, needless to say, my availability was pretty limited as well. I explained to her that her telephone number was recited incorrectly but the blame was clearly on me, (Fran had insisted) for not trying hard enough. I felt stupid. At the time, I had never in my entire life encountered something like this and lacked all the inhibition and knowledge to handle the situation correctly. Consequently, I forwarded this concern to our league director and was explained that if a match were not played before the week's end, the person unable to attend the original match would take the loss. Now that I think about it, I should have just accepted the win, but I couldn't.

I was new to the league and as such, new to this "default" ruling as well and was not as happy as a person otherwise taking a "free" win should have been. I somehow still blamed myself for not being able to reschedule the game and as a courtesy asked our director to give Fran a chance and offered to play her after her scheduled match the following week to be fair. The director finally agreed to allow this make-up match after reminding me that the responsibility rested solely on Fran to contact me and not the other way around. I really hated the very thought that I would have gotten a “freebie” therefore the director called Fran immediately. To this day, I’m still unsure of what they had discussed but the director came back to me a little PO’ed for lack of a better word and told me to take the win and be done with it.

I’ve been an avid reader of this forum and after reading this thread specifically, I had to put in my $.02. I sincerely hope that you take no offense to reading my reply, but to my experience, respect is earned not commanded.

Fran Crimi
10-19-2005, 07:53 AM
Oh yes, I remember it very well...

My turn.

I couldn't make our league match because I had to play in Vegas. I contacted you ahead of time, according to the league rules, and we rescheduled for the Sunday after, at noon. I was there at noon, waited 'till 3. Gave up and went home. There was a message at my home at 2 PM from you saying you couldn't make it until 3. Huh? You could have called me at the pool room at 12 and I would have waited.

I returned your call, and said I was going to have a problem rescheduling. You said, "Well then I guess I'll just have to take the win." I said WHAT?? "Don't I get the win because you didn't show?"

Apparently I was wrong. The league director's rules were, whoever asks to reschedule the match is responsible for playing the makeup. So in other words, I could keep rescheduling the match all week with my opponent and he could continually stand me up with no consequence to him. If the match didn't get played, even if it was my opponent's fault, I would have to suffer the loss.

So, I just gave up on the whole thing and told the league director that it was the stupidist rule I've ever seen and told him to go ahead and give my opponent the win. I had a busy schedule that week and I wasn't going to spend the week chasing down my opponent hoping he decides to show up.

End of story.

I'm sorry...what was that you were saying about respect?

Fran

SteveFromNY
10-19-2005, 08:40 AM
Wow, you are correct, and my apologies for remembering certain parts incorrectly. I remembered trying to contact you to reschedule the entire week and finally had gotten the correct number when I dropped by the poolroom a few days after. I admit that I also had difficulty finding the number to the poolroom (since I had only just started to play there) at the time. That is why I hadn't been able to call you when you were there and although I explained that to you, you just didn't want to hear it.

For the record, and although there is no way to prove this, I never said "I guess I'll just have to take the win." It is something that I would never have said, and I'd be willing to bet whatever I owned that anybody who knows me or had met me even once can vouch for. It just simply is not in my nature to be rude. I had explained to you then that I would try my hardest to reschedule the match with the director and I know that you were never told this, but I offered to take the loss. Since I felt it was my fault that I was unable to reach you in time, I told the director to give me the loss. I even argued with him, as stupid as I was to give me the loss. He was the one that insisted I take the win. To this day I still wish I hadn't.

The part about respect, you proved my point with your sarcastic closing remark. Respect is earned in a particular field, not solely based on how well a person excels in that field IMO, but based in part by how honest to GOD humble (to a point) they are about their skill. I respect Tony Robles more than I ever would Earl Strickland based on the fact that Tony's general etiquette and friendliness makes him a nicer person as a whole. THAT to me is more important in pushing this game of pool in the right direction. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're a bad person. I just don't neccessarily agree with your post demanding respect when there is clearly no reciprocation of the same courtesy/respect others around you deserve. Being respectful is/should be a life-time commitment. You can't just be nice to one person and rude to 3 others and say you did your part.

This may come off as a low blow, but I understood then, and even more so now, the general feeling of everybody at the poolroom about you and all the problems players seem to always have with you. For incorrectly stating the events, I do sincerely apoligize however. <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Oh yes, I remember it very well...



My turn.



I couldn't make our league match because I had to play in Vegas. I contacted you ahead of time, according to the league rules, and we rescheduled for the Sunday after, at noon. I was there at noon, waited 'till 3. Gave up and went home. There was a message at my home at 2 PM from you saying you couldn't make it until 3. Huh? You could have called me at the pool room at 12 and I would have waited.



I returned your call, and said I was going to have a problem rescheduling. You said, well then I guess I'll just have to take the win. I said WHAT?? Don't I get the win because you didn't show?



Apparently I was wrong. The league director's rules were, whoever asks to reschedule the match is responsible for playing the makeup. So in other words, I could keep rescheduling the match all week with my opponent and he could continually stand me up with no consequence to him. If the match didn't get played, even if it was my opponent's fault, I would have to suffer the loss.



So, I just gave up on the whole thing and told the league director that it was the stupidist rule I've ever seen and told him to go ahead and give my opponent the win. I'm not going to spend the week chasing down my opponent.



End of story.



I'm sorry...what was that you were saying about respect?



Fran <hr /></blockquote>

CarolNYC
10-19-2005, 08:50 AM
"And when should the TD decide it's happened?

I've been in both situations of being booed and being cheered for. It hurts when you're you're not getting cheered on.

So what is the game plan?"

Now we're talking about a possible "behavorial rules for audience" type clause to be followed-it would be the responsibility,I believe , of the tournament director to take care of the matter at the discretion of the "PLAYER" which again, is dependent on what we perceive as rude behavior,because we all have different ideas of what we may feel is rude-applauding if I miss,hissing/shouting ,anything that would cause bigtime disruption in my performance,ya know what I mean?
We all have an idea of what rude behavior is, but as we ALL know, pool is so mental its ridicuolous, so mental ability to tune out certain things will be a factor of the PLAYER themseleves!
love ya
Carol~getting ready for Nationals! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Chopstick
10-19-2005, 08:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Sometimes people don't realize how loud they are "whispering." I've been shushed before, too. I didn't take it personally. I just quieted myself down. <hr /></blockquote>

I just thought of something. There are a couple of bits of technology that could be applied at tournaments that would help the players. One is a white noise generator. It's a noise canceling technology that would significantly reduce the level of background noise that reaches the player. They use them in offices that have a lot of cubicles. They project them over the tops of the cubicles to keep peoples voices from carrying.

The other is a cell phone jammer. Cell phones entering the room would receive no signal.

Neither of these things are very expensive and they are portable. Someone shoudl bring this to the attention of tournament promoters.

CarolNYC
10-19-2005, 08:58 AM
"I'm pretty sure that the player who had to face that crowd after me didn't just bury her mother three days before, like I did."

Fran,
I was with you when your Mom died (God rest her soul) but dont use that as an excuse-you were on the hill playing jamup and lost your mental focus-and thats a fact-youn blew it and couldnt get your focus back and thats proof of just how mental this game is-
The player who played her next was put in the same exact atmosphere as you were in and managed to win 9-1!!!!!!

"Carol, your match with the waitress incident was against Belinda Calhoun. You won the match."


As for this incident you are stating, I would hope the player would've addressed me immediately if I did anything that was improper and I believe Belinda would have done just that!I think you have your facts wrong-I recall taking a break, returning to table,putting my glove on while my opponent was taking PRACTICE shots on the table and the water person asking me if I needed a water,in which I said "yes" and turned to Belinda and asked her if she needed one-big difference!

"Is that all I said?"

No Fran, but I do not care to air this dirty laundry out in DETAILED SPECIFICS-but I will say one more thing of this matter,being that you asked, when you met me,I told you "you can do ANYTHING you want to me, but dont EVER,and I mean EVER, do anything to my children,"and if you recall, my daughter was with us at that time (she was 14}-THAT was your mistake-and I jumped on you like white on rice,as I hope every parent would do to protect their children!
Thats all I care to share about this incident-it was a negative experience and the good times we had outweigh the bad, so I'll just remember the good!!!!!
I hope you can move on in your life and I also hope you find peace with yourself,maybe a little "Tai Chi" like me!!!!!!!!!

Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

CarolNYC
10-19-2005, 09:05 AM
Hey Steve,
Just giving you big a shout-out - hope your doing well /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
anybody who knows me or had met me even once can vouch for. It just simply is not in my nature to be rude <hr /></blockquote>

I gotcha back,Steve /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I'll vouch on that-some people cant move on,Steve,so we'll just go on living our happy lives,okay?

Hope to see you soon!
I'll stop up as soon as I can to say hi-one more tournament-(the Nationals in Oregon-november}-then we break! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Carol~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Rich R.
10-19-2005, 09:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> I just thought of something. There are a couple of bits of technology that could be applied at tournaments that would help the players. One is a white noise generator. It's a noise canceling technology that would significantly reduce the level of background noise that reaches the player. They use them in offices that have a lot of cubicles. They project them over the tops of the cubicles to keep peoples voices from carrying.

The other is a cell phone jammer. Cell phones entering the room would receive no signal.<hr /></blockquote>
I believe playing soft music in the tournament rooms has a similar effect as the white noise generator, but it may not do the job quite as well. However, I believe these are two excellent suggestions for all major tournaments.

I really like the idea of a cell phone jammer. Although TD's continually remind people to turn off the cell phones, they continue to ring.

SteveFromNY
10-19-2005, 10:17 AM
Thanks Carol. The poolroom just isn't the same without all the positive energy you bring with you every night. I remember telling everybody I knew after our game (and could very well have posted about it here as well) what a class act you truly are, and for that I have nothing but the utmost respect. Good luck and hope to see you around! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Gayle in MD
10-19-2005, 04:36 PM
Wow, you go through all that to tell us how polite you are, then you end with a last paragraph like that one? You are speaking for EVERYONE in a pool room? Seems to me that your posts in this thread are of the rudest nature of all.

"This may come off as a low blow" It didn't come off as a low blow...it WAS a low blow

Nice guy....

Gayle in Md.

TedKaufman
10-19-2005, 04:50 PM
I am sorry I never got to see matches at The Commodore. In fact, I don't think I ever even saw The Commodore, period. I think they had torn it down before I moved to Manhattan.

But I surely loved the matches at The Roosevelt. What I particularly liked was that you could sit on the balcony level and practically look directly down on the playing tables. I was right over the table, seated next to Weenie Beenie and Grady (who were commentating for Accustats), when Mike Sigel ran 150 and out on Mike Zuglan. And in the same seat over the same table when Mike Zuglan turned around and ran 148 from the opening break against Ray Martin. You should have heard the groans from the crowd when Zuglan attempted an off angle combination/throw shot on his 149th ball. I bet he still has nightmares about that choice.

Anyway, that was the best viewing position I've ever experienced at a tournament. And the elegance of the Roosevelt's ballroom and the entire atmosphere of the event was simply wonderful. I deeply regret nothing like those events are staged at venues like that anymore, but I feel very fortunate I got to experience it.

DebraLiStarr
10-19-2005, 05:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
So, I just gave up on the whole thing and told the league director that it was the stupidist rule I've ever seen and told him to go ahead and give my opponent the win. I had a busy schedule that week and I wasn't going to spend the week chasing down my opponent hoping he decides to show up.

End of story.

I'm sorry...what was that you were saying about respect?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Fran,
I don't want to start anything with you, honestly. I don't want to add fuel to any past disagreement we may have had. I just want to point out something that I notice a lot. I'm not being mean by saying this. I believe that you have set a double standard with rudeness. You do not like for people to disrespect you or to be rude towards you but you have no problem being rude and disrespectful to other people. You've been that way with me on several occasions - and I can see that I am not alone. I know you don't see yourself as being rude and pushy, but you can get that way in a heartbeat. Your words can be quite vicious at times. I know that you are probably not like that all of the time. As a matter of fact, I respected you enough to buy your book - after we had our little blow up here on CCB a few years ago. OK?

I think you are a real asset to this forum - but when someone shares a different point of view, or disagrees with you, you get very nasty. I made a public apology to you on this message board almost a year ago. You have yet to acknowledge it. At all. I know you had to have seen it. If you want me to look it up and direct you to it, I am willing to do that. Just remember that its almost a year old. Accept or decline my apology. At least acknowledge it. That would raise the bar - for me at least.

In closing I hope you will look at this honestly and try to see that I am not picking on you or at you. I know that if I would have sent something to you privately you would have disregarded it. If you choose not to respond, I'll know where you stand on the issue.

Debra Li

Barbara
10-19-2005, 06:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DebraLiStarr:</font><hr>
Fran,
I don't want to start anything with you, honestly. I don't want to add fuel to any past disagreement we may have had. I just want to point out something that I notice a lot. I'm not being mean by saying this. I believe that you have set a double standard with rudeness. You do not like for people to disrespect you or to be rude towards you but you have no problem being rude and disrespectful to other people. You've been that way with me on several occasions - and I can see that I am not alone. I know you don't see yourself as being rude and pushy, but you can get that way in a heartbeat. Your words can be quite vicious at times. I know that you are probably not like that all of the time. As a matter of fact, I respected you enough to buy your book - after we had our little blow up here on CCB a few years ago. OK?

I think you are a real asset to this forum - but when someone shares a different point of view, or disagrees with you, you get very nasty. I made a public apology to you on this message board almost a year ago. You have yet to acknowledge it. At all. I know you had to have seen it. If you want me to look it up and direct you to it, I am willing to do that. Just remember that its almost a year old. Accept or decline my apology. At least acknowledge it. That would raise the bar - for me at least.

In closing I hope you will look at this honestly and try to see that I am not picking on you or at you. I know that if I would have sent something to you privately you would have disregarded it. If you choose not to respond, I'll know where you stand on the issue.

Debra Li

<hr /></blockquote>

Excuse me Deb, but are you asking anything like a question as to how you would actually be a player in a REAL TOURNAMENT and you had to deal with any situation like this?

Barbara

SteveFromNY
10-19-2005, 06:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Wow, you go through all that to tell us how polite you are, then you end with a last paragraph like that one? You are speaking for EVERYONE in a pool room? Seems to me that your posts in this thread are of the rudest nature of all.

"This may come off as a low blow" It didn't come off as a low blow...it WAS a low blow

Nice guy....

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>I was definitely not trying to win the crowd here by "going through all that" nor was I setting anybody up to sympathize with me as your post implied. I stated with my first post that it was a PERSONAL experience that I had with Fran. One can only take that much pushing, and from that experience, I felt the need to stand up for myself. Respect is something that by its very action requires reciprocating. Would you respect somebody if they stepped all over you and insulted you? Probably not. And that is exactly how I felt.

As for the "low blow". I NEVER stated that I spoke for everyone at the poolroom. There are probably some that have had no problem with her. I did however write that the GENERAL feeling from everyone that had spoken to me of their bad experiences with Fran were anything but pleasant.

You read both of my posts in their entirety (I'm assuming) and you come to the conclusion only from my last paragraph that my posts were "rudest" by nature? It sounds to me like your experiences with Fran were great. To that I am extremely happy for you.

I was just dissapointed to see a post as such coming from somebody that clearly (again, in my OPINION) lacked the respect or common courtesy for other players. As I said earlier, don't ask for it, earn it.

Have you ever heard of the benefit of the doubt? To explain another part that I really didn't want to get into, Fran flat out accused me of trying to avoid a game with her so that I can rack up the "free" win. Re-read her reply to me and tell me that was NOT her intention. I was insulted.

Yes, it's something somewhat insignificant for some Joe like me to be talking about in a forum full of respectable professionals and veterans of the game, but to me, this experience was very degrading. Is it not acceptable for me to express that?

DebraLiStarr
10-19-2005, 07:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr>

<hr /></blockquote>

Excuse me Deb, but are you asking anything like a question as to how you would actually be a player in a REAL TOURNAMENT and you had to deal with any situation like this?

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

REAL???? What is it, Im not important enough to address such things? Ok. I see how you are. I wasted all that time trying to talk Marissa into apologizing to you last week. I'm sorry, I thought respect required two people, not one that looks down upon others and demands it. That's an issue that has already been brought up here by somebody else. Oh well.

LC3
10-19-2005, 09:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr>Tuxedos suck and are phoney, quiet and respectful is good!<hr /></blockquote>
I like a good tux, but to each his own. My point wasn't that players should have to wear tuxedos, but something nice.

I don't mean to keep doting on Japan (I lived there for nine years, so that's where a lot of my experience happens to be), but I used to play at a pool room there that had a clothes rack with black pants, vests, and bowties on hangers for the room's team. The three cushion players do the same thing and look great. I don't pool to become stuffy, but it could stand to lean a bit more in that direction. Just my $.02.

nAz
10-19-2005, 09:46 PM
uh just want weigh-in with my thoughts when i read most of these post... BWHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH!!!!!!!! oh MERCY!

Qtec
10-19-2005, 10:06 PM
Hi Barbara, since everyone seems to be jumping in with their own Fran Crimi story, I thought I would jump in too. Yes, I too have a Fran story.

My Story.

A little over 2 years ago I contacted Fran Crimi to ask her about doing the BCA Instructors course. At first she was cautious but after sending her various clippings from magazines etc I was eventually able to persuade her that I wasn’t just some crazy European psycho ball-banger who doesn’t like GW and likes to argue with Ed[ eg8r] and she agreed to take me on as a student.
At the time I was between jobs and was on a strict budget for the trip. I had found a cheap hotel on the Upper West side- which turned out to be slap bang in the middle of Harlem.[ how should I know]
When I gave Fran the details of the trip and I told her the address of the place and was going to be staying at, she insisted that I change to another hotel. Her words were, ”there’s no-way you are staying at that hotel on your first trip to NY”.
She basically ordered me to book it and said the extra cost would be taken out of the $750 that I would be paying her for the training. I wasn’t entirely happy about that but Fran says we can sort it out when I am in NY. So anyways, off I go.

I had a great time in NY and it was all thanks to Fran. I had a room on the 23rd floor at a great hotel, 2 minutes walk from Times square. Fran showed me round town, took me to ground Zero [where she talked her way past security at a building overlooking the site and we ended up out on the roof!] and generally couldn’t do enough for me. She took me to Queens where I had the honour to spend a day shooting pool with a great guy called Gene Ragey.
I was a total stranger to Fran but she treated me like I was family.
In the end, I never paid Fran a single dollar for taking that course. She just wouldn’t take any money from me.
The Fran Crimi I know is a very kind, generous and honest person. She is also one very smart cookie and I am proud to call her a friend.

Qtec aka Q,

A.Litterick BCA Rec. Instructor.



Al and Gene.
http://www.members.lycos.nl/agli2/AlandGene32%20(Small)%20(WinCE).JPG

wolfdancer
10-19-2005, 10:25 PM
Nice story.....but you didn't tell us what were your other attributes...
"I wasn’t just some crazy European psycho ball-banger who doesn’t like GW and likes to argue with Ed[ eg8r]"...lol
really was a nice story......kind of balances this thread

Chopstick
10-20-2005, 05:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DebraLiStarr:</font><hr>

Fran,
I don't want to start anything with you, honestly.<font color="blue">Oh geez, here we go.</font color>

<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">ChopStick~~~~&gt;reaching for the volume control knob. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Chopstick
10-20-2005, 05:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
I was eventually able to persuade her that I wasn’t just some crazy European psycho ball-banger who doesn’t like GW and likes to argue with Ed[ eg8r]...
<hr /></blockquote>

OK, Fran. How did he manage to do that? Must have been some pretty fancy lying. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Fran Crimi
10-20-2005, 09:01 AM
Caol, I want to apologize for allowing my feelings and disappointment to enter into my post to you regarding your etiquette. I know I shouldn't have done that and I won't do it again.

I thought that a few years ago we had wished each other well and moved on with our lives. I can't begin to describe the hurt and disappointment I felt when I found out recently that you had been involved in a rumor intended to harm my integrity as a teacher, professional player and as a person.

For the record, I did not try to sabotage your cue sponsorship with Blackheart Cues. Unfortunately, this was worse than just a rumor, because a particular line was taken out of an e-mail exchange that only Jerry Blackheart, you and I were privy to at the time. The line was in regard to my mentioning that you were still part-time on the pro tour at the time. This was quoted and twisted to proportions that I could never imagine, and with such malicious intent that I still have trouble understanding why anyone would do such a thing, especially you.

A few years ago, while Jerry Blackheart approached you to become your cue sponsor, he also sent me an e-mail asking me if I thought you would make a good rep for him. I wrote back several paragraphs offering nothing but the highest regard for your character and playing ability and told him you would be a great rep. He was extremely pleased with my response and immediately wrote back asking me as someone who knows your game, my opinion of what type of cue you would like. Does that sound like I tried to sabotage you?

I have recently forwarded to you as well as others, a copy of that e-mail exchange with Jerry. Yes, it's over now, but only because I still had copies of my original correspondence with Blackheart. But what if I didn't have those copies? How would I ever have been able to prove anything?

As it is, this story has done two years worth of damage to my reputation. Pool is my life. Teaching is my life. This makes me look like a deceitful, scheming person. You and I may have had disagreements at the end of our friendship, but I took them as just that...disagreements. People have them. However, I was always in your corner wishing you well, whether I was sitting at at your table watching your match, or not, even after we parted our friendship.

I don't need Tai Chi to get past this, Carol, just some time. And I will, and you won't see my feelings about this reflected on this board again.

Fran

SteveFromNY
10-20-2005, 09:17 AM
Wow, although you may or may not care the least bit (to which I wouldn't blame you for) about what I am about to say, your honest reply to Carol has helped in my decision to eradicate any ill feelings towards you. After all, we are all human and all have our good and bad days right? I just wish for our next encounter to be pleasant one. <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Caol, I want to apologize for allowing my feelings and disappointment to enter into my post to you regarding your etiquette. I know I shouldn't have done that and I won't do it again.

I thought that a few years ago we had wished each other well and moved on with our lives. I can't begin to describe the hurt and disappointment I felt when I found out recently that you had been involved in a rumor intended to harm my integrity as a teacher, professional player and as a person.

For the record, I did not try to sabotage your cue sponsorship with Blackheart Cues. Unfortunately, this was worse than just a rumor, because a particular line was taken out of an e-mail exchange that only Jerry Blackheart, you and I were privy to at the time. The line was in regard to my mentioning that you were still part-time on the pro tour at the time. This was quoted and twisted to proportions that I could never imagine, and with such malicious intent that I still have trouble understanding why anyone would do such a thing, especially you.

A few years ago, while Jerry Blackheart approached you to become your cue sponsor, he also sent me an e-mail asking me if I thought you would make a good rep for him. I wrote back several paragraphs offering nothing but the highest regard for your character and playing ability and told him you would be a great rep. He was extremely pleased with my response and immediately wrote back asking me as someone who knows your game, my opinion of what type of cue you would like. Does that sound like I tried to sabotage you?

I have recently forwarded to you as well as others, a copy of that e-mail exchange with Jerry. Yes, it's over now, but only because I still had copies of my original correspondence with Blackheart. But what if I didn't have those copies? How would I ever have been able to prove anything?

As it is, this story has done two years worth of damage to my reputation. Pool is my life. Teaching is my life. This makes me look like a deceitful, scheming person. You and I may have had disagreements at the end of our friendship, but I took them as just that...disagreements. People have them. However, I was always in your corner wishing you well, whether I was sitting at at your table watching your match, or not, even after we parted our friendship.

I don't need Tai Chi to get past this, Carol, just some time. And I will, and you won't see my feelings about this reflected on this board again.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

9 Ball Girl
10-20-2005, 10:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I have recently forwarded to you as well as others, a copy of that e-mail exchange with Jerry. Yes, it's over now, but only because I still had copies of my original correspondence with Blackheart. But what if I didn't have those copies? How would I ever have been able to prove anything?<hr /></blockquote>I can vouch for Fran on this one as I was sent a copy of that exchange back then and it was nothing but all good things about you, Carol.

Keep hittin' 'em good!

Scott Lee
10-20-2005, 10:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
I think this pool and Karaoke thing might catch on, or maybe the strip pool ....but I doubt the Vietnamese style will. <hr /></blockquote>

Jack...FYI, I have trademarked the best name for a "strip club" pool bar already, so if you want to use it, we can negotiate the franchise fee:
Beers, Boobs &amp; Balls! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif LMAO

Scott

Fran Crimi
10-20-2005, 11:28 AM
Your kindness warms my heart, Steve. Thank you. Hey, let's play that match we never got to play. Winner buys the beers. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

Gayle in MD
10-20-2005, 04:26 PM
Tap Tap Tap, Good for you. So you're a good guy after all...

Have a nice day.

Nostroke
10-20-2005, 06:23 PM
In Albuquerque, some girl twice during the tv match just walked right in front of the audience and right into one of the players shots as she was down on the 8 Ball. I said something to a pro sitting with me and she said " Dont worry she wont even see that" and by all appearances to my surprise, she didnt.

If it was Monica though im sure it would have bothered her A LOT! My point is it bothers some and some it doesnt bother. This results in no uniformity of enforcement and as a result some rookie audience members dont know whats right and whats wrong so the problem continues.

jjinfla
10-20-2005, 06:44 PM
Fran, At least be thankful that there are fans there who are willing to pay to watch. You find paying fans in the WPBA but not in the men's matches. The men can't get spectators even for free.

But I really am surprised that talking behind the rail would bother a pro. Shows a lack of concentration. But then Danny D did get on Buddy Hall's last nerve one Sunday.

And that's another point. A lot of the people talking on the rail are players waiting for their match to be called. And they really are more interested in their conversation then what is going on on the pool table.

Just my observations.

Jake

Rich R.
10-20-2005, 07:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> A lot of the people talking on the rail are players waiting for their match to be called. And they really are more interested in their conversation then what is going on on the pool table.<hr /></blockquote>Jake, you make a good point here. Some of the noisiest people at pool tournaments are the other players. They really don't care about any matches, except their own, and they definitely don't seem to care about bothering other players. I've seen this at both men's and women's tournaments, at both the regional and pro level.

Players should be setting the example for the fans.

theinel
10-21-2005, 12:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> A lot of the people talking on the rail are players waiting for their match to be called. And they really are more interested in their conversation then what is going on on the pool table.<hr /></blockquote>Jake, you make a good point here. Some of the noisiest people at pool tournaments are the other players. They really don't care about any matches, except their own, and they definitely don't seem to care about bothering other players. I've seen this at both men's and women's tournaments, at both the regional and pro level.

Players should be setting the example for the fans. <hr /></blockquote>
I saw this happen at the BCA event in Vegas this year. I'm not positive who was involved but I'm pretty sure that Tiffany Nelson was the player at the table during a late session. She stopped playing and addressed someone in the box seats, which were reserved for players and VIP's, about being respectful of the people playing. The people she addressed were definitely very well know touring female professionals.

I don't for a second think that these people were doing anything intentionally but when in a large venue it is easy to misgauge the level of your own conversations. I don't know that there is or will be a solution to this anytime soon but I definitely think that the solution should err on the side of "silence is golden".

SteveFromNY
10-21-2005, 05:39 AM
Thanks Fran. Prepare to be buying them rounds. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Your kindness warms my heart, Steve. Thank you. Hey, let's play that match we never got to play. Winner buys the beers. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
10-21-2005, 05:40 AM
Hi Q,
I just want to add that I too have witnessed Fran's terrific hospitality to members of the CCB.
When I was in N.Y., she also gave me the grand tour, not to mention that she chaufferred me to my own Grand Opening on forty second street! She even supplied me with a photographer (SPetty) to shoot the event and provide photos to my public relations people. LMAO...
Seriously, there's no tour like the Fran Crimi tour of NY!

Gayle in Md.

DickLeonard
10-21-2005, 06:18 AM
Ted, I played in a Qualifer at the Roosevelt Hotel in the late 60s I never got up to the Balconey just the Bar. Dallas West and I spent one evening there. Our games got postponed till the morning.

A story about Julians, Cueball Kelly told me that my mentor Joe Canton set what he thought was a World Record in Julians in the late 40s he ran over 100 balls in every match, afternoon and evening for 6 weeks straight.

He was to play Ralph Greenleaf a 4 game match when he got word that Ralph had died. I have a copy of the ticket for the matches I don't know if I can send it along.####

Vagabond
10-21-2005, 06:38 AM
In snooker, audience are not allowed to walk around when the player is at the table.
You are right about Monica.

TedKaufman
10-21-2005, 09:46 AM
Dick,
When I was going to Julians in the 80's, I think they probably still had the same tables Joe Canton played on in the 40's--same rails and cloth, too! Needless to say, since Julians was the only pool room in all of Manhattan at the time, competition was non-existent, and accordingly, so was table maintenence.

Great story about the Greenleaf tickets. I hear so much about Greenleaf as a player, I wonder if anyone has ever seen footage of him playing. He was such a huge star, it seems someone must have filmed him. Do you know if there is any film of him?

TedKaufman
10-21-2005, 09:56 AM
Dick, I forgot to mention, I was in my same catbird seat at the Roosevelt for the '92 US Open to watch Dallas knock out Mike Zuglan in two innings in the semi-final and again for the final with Sigel and West.

I was watching the tapes from that tournament recently when it occurred to me what a tough tournament Mike Zuglan had. In his two loses, he got one offensive inning, in which he ran 48. In his first loss, he broke and Sigel ran out 150. In his next loss, Dallas beat him in two innings. Talk about tough luck!

Stretch
10-21-2005, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr> In snooker, audience are not allowed to walk around when the player is at the table.
You are right about Monica. <hr /></blockquote>

And that's how it should be Vagabond. The crux of the problem as i see it is this. It's a clash of cultures. Snooker is a Gentleman's Game at heart. The game of Kings. Much stock is put into maintaining the integrady of inherent Values like strickly maintianing dress codes. Contestants are nicely dressed, it's played in an affable manour, and there is no violence.

9 ball,and 8 ball on the other hand is the common Man's game. It's a game from the streets.

The popularity and fortunes of both games have been up and down over the years, and lots of players have played and mixed with all the cue sports quite well. Now 9 ball comes along and there's a whole mix of people from different backgrounds thrown together and knowone knows how to act not even the audience.

The answer is simple really. At the league or club level you know that anything can and will happen, so u deal the best u can given the situation. That is part of THAT game.

On the Tournament/Regional or Governing body whatever level. There is NO Excuse for anything but the highest level of Sportsmanship and fare play. If we can't offer that at least to it's Players we got NOTHING.

So how do u "train" a room full of hotshots with a cue to behave? That responsability lies with the Host of the event. I'd like to see more refereed matches though. Just the presence of a Reff. does wonders. St.

wolfdancer
10-21-2005, 10:08 AM
you mean, in Snooker, there's no
. about the whinin' and the cryin' And the shooting and the dying And the fellow
with a switchblade knife
Great game...I spent some time in Canada, and they had televised the matches.

Fran Crimi
10-21-2005, 10:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
I was eventually able to persuade her that I wasn’t just some crazy European psycho ball-banger who doesn’t like GW and likes to argue with Ed[ eg8r]...
<hr /></blockquote>

OK, Fran. How did he manage to do that? Must have been some pretty fancy lying. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

He got me with the Scottish brogue.

Fran

Fran Crimi
10-21-2005, 01:14 PM
Hey quit it, willya---you're ruining my reputation here...

It was the only way I could get you out of Harlem, you stubborn Scottsman.

Fran

Fran Crimi
10-21-2005, 02:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> ......kind of balances this thread
<hr /></blockquote>

I've appeared to have canceled myself out, wolfie.

Fran

Barbara
10-21-2005, 03:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> ......kind of balances this thread
<hr /></blockquote>

I've appeared to have canceled myself out, wolfie.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Well for what it's worth Fran, you've given me another point to speak about at my next Player's Meeting. I will address the players to please don't engage your opponent in conversation - they may not appreciate it. But I've always addressed the players to not engage in conversation with spectators because it can be misconstrued as coaching and sharking.

Now I will address the spectators to respect the players as best they can since the majority is playing for a $500 Qualifier.

This was, for the most part, a good, thought-provoking thread. I fumbled on one response and hopefully made up for it. This is a thread makes you go Hmmmmmm....

Barbara

Fran Crimi
10-21-2005, 03:02 PM
Gayle, Broadway will never look the same. It was worth every minute of it. We've got to do it again; and I'm jumping out with you this time. You're the expert. I'll follow.

Fran ~~~ shuffling off to Buffalo....

Fran Crimi
10-21-2005, 03:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr>
Well for what it's worth Fran, you've given me another point to speak about at my next Player's Meeting. I will address the players to please don't engage your opponent in conversation - they may not appreciate it. But I've always addressed the players to not engage in conversation with spectators because it can be misconstrued as coaching and sharking.

Now I will address the spectators to respect the players as best they can since the majority is playing for a $500 Qualifier.

This was, for the most part, a good, thought-provoking thread. I fumbled on one response and hopefully made up for it. This is a thread makes you go Hmmmmmm....

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

Great stuff, Barbara. You're facing a particularly difficult situation because you've got a combination of player-types. There's the pros who pop in and out, the regional regulars, and the newcomers.

You've also got different types of spectators, ranging from the more experienced to friends or family of a new player.

These dynamics are continuously changing, too. You don't want to have to get up and talk about rules of etiquette at every event, but maybe you could do something like the WPBA does and take the newcommers to the side and have a quick Q&amp;A session. Lay out the rules, encourage questions. That kind of thing.

Fran

wolfdancer
10-21-2005, 03:48 PM
Barbara, If i may offer a suggestion....instead of you being forced to be the protocol Nazi....why not form a tournament etiquette committee, and print up a handout for the newer players?
It ain't a prayer meeting though, at least I wouldn't have a prayer, if I was up against them sharphooters I mean sharpshooters, on your tour....a little audience/player interaction is usually part of the entertainment package.

Fran Crimi
10-21-2005, 03:50 PM
Another way you can do it is to put it in writing --- one sheet for players and one for spectators, the spectators sheet being more along the lines of friendly recommendations to help allow the players the best atmosphere in which to compete. Leave them in two piles in plain view and let everyone know they're there at the player's meeting.

Fran

wolfdancer
10-21-2005, 04:00 PM
So what you're saying....it wouldn't be in good form for me to yell "swing, batter, swing" at one of them tournaments????

BLACKHEART
10-21-2005, 07:42 PM
Hi folks, a friend told me my name was raised in this thread. I would like to interject a few words. A few years ago after seeing Carol play at the WPBA stop in Peoria, I e-mailed Fran. I asked her if she knew Carol. She said yes that they were pretty close friends. I asked Fran if Carol had a cue sponsor. She said no &amp; that if I was considering offering Carol any kind of sponsorship, Carol would be a great choice. I contacted Carol &amp; made an offer to build her a playing cue &amp; a break cue. She was to play with them for one month &amp; if she liked them, they were hers, but she could play with no other cue,but mine for one year. At the end of one year she could keep the cues, trade them in for new ones, or sell them &amp; move on. After playing with the cues for about a week she told me she was in love with the cues &amp; a patnership of sorts was made.I told her I could not afford to give her a full sponsorship &amp; if she EVER had a better deal, we would part company &amp; I would wish her well. That is just what happened. Evidently she got a better deal from another cue company. We parted company &amp; I still love her &amp; hope she has nothing, but good things in her life. At no time in our year long relationship did Carol ever say anything against Fran nor has Fran ever said anything to me bad about Carol...JER
JERRY EICK
BLACK HEART CUSTOM POOL CUES
BLACKHEARTCUES.COM

Retardo
10-21-2005, 08:53 PM
Am I alone in finding some oF THESE posts in this here thread unintelligible?

Not you wolf.

silverbullet
10-22-2005, 07:01 AM
While I do not know what it is like to play in a pro event, I know what good manners are and are not. Booing another player or cheering when they miss is beyond deplorable and IMO people who would do such a thing are just 'trash' thinly veiled in respectable clothes and jobs.

Someone brought up cheering at the pro events.I do not think it is right to say that it is a mental game, implying that the bothered player does not have a good mental game. It is a simple fact that people are 'different' and we all have our mental challenges, whether internal or external. Yes, it is a mental game, but no one has a perfect mental game nor has never choked, no not one.

Giving players and spectators papers with rules sounds good and it may have some effect. But the unfortunate fact remains, that it is the 'trash' who are among those paying to watch and without them, no one would make any money. Is it possible that those with the cheese would rather cater to the 'trash' than the players because what they really care about is making money?

It is sad to say, but gone are the days that I could turn to someone and say quiet and they would stop talking. Now, if I say quiet to someone, I run the risk of getting 'cussed out' or the person rudely saying 'I payed my fee, I can do what I want'. There are so many these days that do not care about anybody but themselves. What I now see around me in general and at sports events is indeed 'beyond belief'. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Laura

Sid_Vicious
10-22-2005, 07:46 AM
Whoopin' and hollerin' has been promoted and whirled up by players from Alison on down, so how can anyone complain at the audience for being casual, AT ANY GIVEN TIME! Have you seen Tiger Woods walk to the tee box and toss his arms up for crowd cheers, NOT? Get the promoters on board or quit complaining is my 2C...sid

Qtec
10-22-2005, 11:28 AM
When Tiger walks onto the tee, do you hear a whoop and a hollerin? Of course you do.
When he hits his ball there is complete silence. You start shouting before he hits his ball, youre feet wont touch the grass. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
In a pro pool tournament, when it costs the participants a lot of money just to participate, its not too much too ask that when you get down to play your shot, the whole crowd isnt hissing and shouting 'miss'. Or something worse.

Antway, whatever happened to good old fashioned common courtesy? Showing a bit of respect to a lady?
Where I come from, we are taught to show women a little respect. All women.
In Fran,s case, it was inexcusible behaviour from the crowd and something should have been done about it.
If you can imagine the situation, it actually shows a lot of professionalism on Frans part just to carry on with the match!

I put it down to a decline in social norms. People should be taught how to bring up kids.

Q.... BTW, despite what the word is, pool is not dead as KT would have you believe. In Europe, it is thriving . In my club alone, we have 13 teams who play week in and out! [ roughly 200 people]..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif


End of rant. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Sid_Vicious
10-23-2005, 12:55 AM
"When Tiger walks onto the tee, do you hear a whoop and a hollerin? Of course you do."

IS HE WHIRLING HIS HAND IN THE AIR TO SPIN UP THE FEVER! Tell me that, cuz the pro WPBA players do. I'm waiting for your answer...sid

Qtec
10-23-2005, 02:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]
IS HE WHIRLING HIS HAND IN THE AIR TO SPIN UP THE FEVER! Tell me that, cuz the pro WPBA players do. I'm waiting for your answer...sid
<hr /></blockquote>
What if he did? Would that make any difference? There would still be quiet when he steps up to the ball and then after he hits it straight down the fairway, the crowd would again go wild.
Sid, no-one has a problem with crowds getting excited as long as they do so at the appropriate time.
If you want to see good pool at tournys, you have to give players the opportunity to play their best game.
Q

Sid_Vicious
10-23-2005, 07:31 AM
That's not my point. My point is that they take a billiard event and promotionally accent it by having the participants in the event to generate rowdyness in the crowd, much like a wrestling match. Look at the cute names they've been given, Duchess of Doom", "Black Widow", "Irish Invader." Unruly behavior from the crowd should not be that surprising IMO. Golf has always been statured as a gentleman's sport, whereas pool has the rep over it's lifetime for being a seedy activity to begin with.

I am all for the respect of being quiet, and yet the promoters are catering to the novice viewers with this hoopla, so I say either chill on the concern over noise from the sidelines, or eliminate the players efforts to purposely kick up the dust by their cemantics. You get what you ask for...sid

SPetty
10-23-2005, 06:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>She even supplied me with a photographer (SPetty) to shoot the event and provide photos to my public relations people. LMAO...<hr /></blockquote>Geez, I can't believe I missed my cue!

http://www.pettypoint.com/pics/Gayle.gif
Gayle dancing on Broadway!

I just want to add that I, too, have partaken (partook?) of Fran's terrific hospitality. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

groupvp
10-23-2005, 07:26 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Sports thrive on the antics of fools, and showman.
Though I really like the skill level demonstrated by todays
players its their quirky, unpredictable behaviour that adds
to their reputations and draws more people to watch the game. Yes while Earl the Pearl is in a way disrespectful he gives way more back to the game at that level than he takes (IMO) New Players coming into the sport should be definitely educated on etiquette, but once you are famous and have thousands of fans that pay to see you I think you can take a certain amount of liberty with the etiquette of the game.

sidepocket3
10-24-2005, 01:12 PM
Butch,
Hope this works, here's a copy of that ticket. Hopefully I'll also be able to direct you to the write-up too.
Steve

http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dadralphgreenleaf19509rh.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dadsscrapbookp25b818050tt.jpg

SPetty
10-25-2005, 10:14 AM
Maybe this'll work?

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7321/dadralphgreenleaf19509rh.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/5186/dadsscrapbookp25b818050tt.jpg