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Drop1
10-16-2005, 07:14 PM
We have a new guy that has started playing with our group. He is better than any of us,and has a back ground in snooker. He also has a big mouth,and is very pushy. We don't want to ask him to leave,because that is not the style of the guys. We play eight ball,and I notice he is a little weak on reading the table. I'm pretty good on saftey shots,and might be able to neutralize his skill,and beat him on position. Any help appreciated.

Tom_In_Cincy
10-16-2005, 07:24 PM
Introduce him to 'MUM' pool.

No player talks during the match.

Drop1
10-16-2005, 07:44 PM
That might help,but I need a battle plan,as how to consistanty attack his skill. I did not mention,that we play partners. My partner is pretty good,and can run a table,left with the chance,but he folds with pressure.

Sid_Vicious
10-16-2005, 08:45 PM
Roll with It

Drop1
10-16-2005, 09:01 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gifAny others with no ideas?

Fran Crimi
10-16-2005, 09:54 PM
Don't try to lock him up every chance you get because it will backfire on you. You'll start to tighten up and lose your stroke.

However, you can play a little smarter. Don't take as many chances. If the percentages of a shot are against you, then think twice about taking it. Play safe instead but also try to leave the cb on the rail. He can't do as much from there.


Fran

Drop1
10-16-2005, 10:01 PM
Thanks Fran, I hear the voice of experience in what you say.

MacGyver
10-16-2005, 10:11 PM
There was a post here on bar strategy at 8 ball, but i'll go over what I learnt from it:

Basically, I was about 3rd player at my school's pool table, now 1st or so even beating out those better at me at shooting, because I started using strategy...

So I would say that without improving skill at all, just using some strategy can move your game up a BUNCH.

Some points:

1. Don't run out if you can't completly run out, leave 2-3 balls on the table so you can easily run out no matter where you are left.

2. Break up any problem balls right away playing a safety in the proccess as long as you are sure your opponent can't run out, because you don't want to break them out later on.

3. If he already has a problem ball, you can push another one of his balls into a trouble spot and just give him ball in hand(not shooting at your ball), so that even with ball in hand he still will have a trouble ball(use this when you have to make a kick shot and might give up BIH anyway).

4. Play a safety behind the balls you've left on the table if is not a sure shot or you can't run out... this is really big(at least for me). If I am not 90-100% on a shot, I'll safety it trying to keep my balls in the open or giving him a trouble ball in the process.


just some thoughts, but honestly it kicked up my game by a ton after focusing on strategy rather that just trying to make all my balls...

Drop1
10-16-2005, 10:19 PM
MacGyver,I can feel the game coming on.Thanks for the help.

Fran Crimi
10-16-2005, 10:41 PM
Yup. Been there and done it. Blew it the first time --- realized my mistakes and then got him the second time. Sure felt good. LOL

Don't give up. It may take a few tries but if you stay determined...and stay objective about your mistakes, you can get him... and maybe shut him up. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

HALHOULE
10-16-2005, 11:56 PM
FACE IT. YOU ARE IN A LOSING SITUATION. IT WILL NOT CHANGE. HE IS THE BETTER PLAYER. ADVICE FROM A FORUM WILL NOT SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM. BEATING A BETTER PLAYER THAN YOUR SELF IS NOT LIKELY TO HAPPEN.

recoveryjones
10-17-2005, 12:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> FACE IT. YOU ARE IN A LOSING SITUATION. IT WILL NOT CHANGE. HE IS THE BETTER PLAYER. ADVICE FROM A FORUM WILL NOT SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM. BEATING A BETTER PLAYER THAN YOUR SELF IS NOT LIKELY TO HAPPEN. <hr /></blockquote>

Tap Tap Tap!!!.....too funny /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Until he learns to aim,he'll never have a game.
RJ

Voodoo Daddy
10-17-2005, 03:01 AM
Here is something new you could try...run out on him. Shoot every ball like its your last, put a rack or two on him...he may wilt. If you dont fire back you'll never know his true game or yours and dont matter how long you have been playing. If you dont push your envelope, who will?

Qtec
10-17-2005, 04:05 AM
Dont take this the wrong way Drop [PLEASE /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif] but instead of complaining , see this as an opportunity!
Two of the most important things you need to improve is motivation [ crucial] and someone better to play against from who you can learn.
This guy seems to provide both! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Maybe he is mouthy, [I dont really know what that means exactly?] because he feels a little insecure, maybe he thinks you guys are being a little childish?

Why dont you pick his brains before you play.
eg, Why is he better? Is it just his stroke?
Get him talking cos, I,m sure the guy is willing to share whatever he knows. Who knows, you might learn something and also find him to be a normal human being! [ I,m not quite sure what that is either. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif]
It seems to me that the main problem that he is not being fully accepted is because he is better and you guys dont like it.
Engage in a little bonding, switch partners, who knows ,you might ALL benefit from this.

Qtec.........end of sermon........ /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
10-17-2005, 04:17 AM
Does Tiger win every golf tournament he enters?
Does Efren win every pool tourny?
Sport would be pretty boring if the 'best'player/team always won dont you think.
There is more chance of me winning the lottery 3 times in a row playing Ronnie O best of 21 at snooker...but if I played him on a pool table.....Mmmmm............I know that if I played my A game I am in with a chance- a small chance I admit- but a chance none the less.

Pool is not chess, thank goodness. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Around the c and b levels in pool, its anybodys game. Consistancy is what separates the pro from the amature, not skill level. Below that level, most games are won and lost on mistakes, not great play...and we all make mistakes.

Qtec

Sid_Vicious
10-17-2005, 05:41 AM
That's what I said, "Roll with it." If he is the better player, then dig some good from the experience, and test yourself at the same time. Personally I'll play shape for safities instead of making a run against these types just to see their abilities in unhooking themselves. One thing that may have been mentioned is the break(8-ball.) Don't explode the pack wide open, make a legal soft break and don't give him something basically easy, you know, don't give a suicide break. You're probably going to lose most of the time anyway, so ask yourself afterwards, "Did I learn anything?" Jm2c...sid

Drop1
10-17-2005, 08:40 AM
YOU KNOW I THINK YOU ARE WRONG.I HAVE LEARNED A LOT FROM PEOPLE ON THE FORUM.EXAMPLE,I LEARNED WHAT A LOSER IS FROM YOU.THATS SOMETHING YOU CAN ROLL WITH. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Drop1
10-17-2005, 12:02 PM
I thank you for your observations,and think there is some truth in our not wanting the guy in the group. And true,we are a bit clickish,we can try inclusiveness ,and maybe learn from him. I would not be offended by a post that is not malicious,and certainly your voice is one of reason.

Drop1
10-17-2005, 12:08 PM
Sid,I thought you were just dusting off my post,but after reading these comments,I have to say thanks.

Sid_Vicious
10-17-2005, 03:08 PM
No probs. I was in a lazy mode with the one liner, thanks...sid

SplinterHands
10-17-2005, 06:23 PM
How about this idea? Don't friggin' miss!

Drop1
10-17-2005, 07:49 PM
Great you go right to the heart of the problem. How about when you have nothing to say,you say nothing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

theinel
10-17-2005, 10:47 PM
Drop, I don't know your skill level or his, but if he is a good snooker player you are going to have to play well to beat him, i.e. run out when you have the chance or play jam up safeties. I'm sorry, I know that that is not a very usable piece of advice, but it's the truth.

I do have two small but useable tactics for your safety play though. When playing safe don't rely on distance alone to help you. Snooker players can cut almost any shot commonly found on our equipment. Instead of leaving them long leave them bank shots and even more importantly combinations, especially long ones. Their training tells them not to shoot these shots so they don't have much experience or confidence with them. You'll still have to deal with what they leave you but at least you'll give yourself another chance at the table.

Good luck!

Chopstick
10-18-2005, 07:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> He is better than any of us,and has a back ground in snooker. ..................... I'm pretty good on saftey shots,and might be able to neutralize his skill,and beat him on position. ............ <hr /></blockquote>

You already have your answer. He may be a better shot but that doesn't neccessarily make him a better player. It doesn't matter how good he shoots. He can't win sitting in the chair.

You may not be able to out shoot a guy but you can out smart him. Here's a few things that will take him down. So he's a big mouth, he's pushy, and a sharpshooter. Guys like that like to free wheel when they are shooting. They like the balls open and they want to turn everything into a shooting contest.

Don't give him his game. I'll quote myself here. "Take him up into the tall grass." If you both have balls tied up in a cluster and you can't get yours out clean leave them. Guys like him will lose patience. Give him opportunities to make mistakes.

The game of 8 ball is about changing the circumstances of the game from circumstances where you cannot win into circumstances where you can. If all the balls are in the open any player of medium skiil can run out. Never commit to a run that you can not finish unless racking is something you enjoy. Select the maximum number of balls that you can consistently run out with and leave them on the table until they are in a position you can go all the way. Stop making balls and just concentrate on moving balls. Move yours out of trouble amd move his into trouble.

Stalk you enemy. Wait for the moment. The take him down. Avoid passion. Do it coldy. Unhurried. Their ego will not let them see the truth of what is happeneing to them. You are not making big runs. Not making flashy shots. You are simply, calmly, and quietly killing them.

If they make comments like you're lucky, ignore them completely like you didn't hear them. Say nothing. Walk to the end of the table and prepare to break. This will serve to inflame them and waken their inner fears. Present a character hard as stone. Give them nothing. When you win, say nothing. Lose, miss a ball,...nothing. If you react to your opponent you give him a handle on yourself he can grap onto. Give him nothing and take away his heart. Break him from the inside out. Break him once and you will own him forever.

I played a race to five 8 ball match last year against a guy who never missed a single ball and never missed achieving single safety. I missed two balls in the match. I won 5-3. How? I out played him.

SPetty
10-18-2005, 10:20 AM
Thanks for posting that, Chopstick. It was great!!!

Nostalgia
10-18-2005, 10:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>However, you can play a little smarter. Don't take as many chances. If the percentages of a shot are against you, then think twice about taking it. Play safe instead but also try to leave the cb on the rail. He can't do as much from there.<hr /></blockquote>
To expand a little on playing the percentages. You may already know this, but if you don't, it has helped my game immensely.

The highest percentage shot on the table is not always the best choice. I.e. if there's 3 shots left on the table, and the first one is 95%, but leaves you shape for a 20% shot afterwards, it's a bad play. You may be able to choose a more difficult shot that will give you a much higher percentage to finish the runout.

I play daily with 2 guys who are easily just as skilled shotmakers as I am; one is a bit better. I consistently beat them. Why? As most of the above posts said: strategy. And don't listen to CAPS LOCK. You'll beat him consistently if you start thinking strategy, and not just runouts. A great quote I read somewhere: [ QUOTE ]
8-ball games are usually lost because the player was too aggressive.<hr /></blockquote>

-Joe

SteveFromNY
10-18-2005, 11:16 AM
chopstick just gave me the motivation to win tonight at my lcoal abc 9-ball league. It's kind of like Tony Robles, the silent assasin huh, kill them quietly. Brilliant! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

sack316
10-18-2005, 11:53 AM
some great advice on here! If none of that works for you ask him if you and your partner can play with one gotcha!
For those who don't know how that works, once a rack at any time before, during, or after the guys shot process they have the option of smacking him in the back of the head with the butt of their cues and saying "Gotcha!". It's a pretty good equalizer

Chopstick
10-18-2005, 12:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SteveFromNY:</font><hr> chopstick just gave me the motivation to win tonight at my lcoal abc 9-ball league. It's kind of like Tony Robles, the silent assasin huh, kill them quietly. Brilliant! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Go get 'em Steve. No mercy. One more thing I forgot to add.

When faced with a difficult shot and an easy safety take the safety. A guranteed ball in hand is worth more than making a difficult shot. It may not be glorious, but it wins games. You can be glorious at the bar later.

When faced with a difficult shot and an equally difficult safety take the shot. Missing the safety is usually just as bad as missing the shot. Take a chance and go for the win.

Knock em dead guys.

Drop1
10-18-2005, 12:47 PM
Great advice,,you sure are right there. I can't thank Chop Stick enough for that piece of art he posted,and the patience of Fran and the others that came through. Maybe I will never beat the guy,but a lot of what has been said will,put to practice, make me a better player. I'm blown away with what has been said. You all brought familiy back to the Forum.

Billy
10-18-2005, 02:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> FACE IT. YOU ARE IN A LOSING SITUATION. IT WILL NOT CHANGE. HE IS THE BETTER PLAYER. ADVICE FROM A FORUM WILL NOT SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM. BEATING A BETTER PLAYER THAN YOUR SELF IS NOT LIKELY TO HAPPEN. <hr /></blockquote>

you are a trip

go back to bed will ya, 2am is way past your bedtime

awake and be nice for a change

DickLeonard
10-19-2005, 07:32 AM
HAL WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE CLIMB TO THE TOP IS BY CRAWLING UP THE LEADER BOARD. NO ONE WAS INSTALLED AT THE TOP OF THE HEAP THEY LEFT BODIES ALONG THE WAY. ####

vinnie717
10-19-2005, 04:54 PM
i dont know if this will help that but a stange story. I was taken to hall of fame one day with my older brother and his neighbor who brought a cue that had a missing joint ramin wood shaft and a slip on tip and ferrule. He said before we walked in a soft voice to me paulthe one with out cue what a chump /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gifhaha..well he was having trouble with the shimmed pockets compared to the buckets at his house the night before. when he broke didnt make a ball and i ran out 2 times in row /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.well i walked over to an older fellow and asked to play some one pocket weere i made some good shots but lost about 8-5 then some 9 ball were he would give me an opening and i would get to the 9 and fail.3 times!embarrsing eh?Just to add something when my bro me and his neighbor were playing cutthrought and i broke and ran out.The pro shop person i think came up to me and asked me if i was a money player to play some pro that is like 18 in the tour or something who was trying out a jacoby jump cue.Sry about the length and the pointlessness but funny story sorta not really.

Snapshot9
10-20-2005, 10:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> He is better than any of us,and has a back ground in snooker. ..................... I'm pretty good on saftey shots,and might be able to neutralize his skill,and beat him on position. ............ <hr /></blockquote>

You already have your answer. He may be a better shot but that doesn't neccessarily make him a better player. It doesn't matter how good he shoots. He can't win sitting in the chair.

You may not be able to out shoot a guy but you can out smart him. Here's a few things that will take him down. So he's a big mouth, he's pushy, and a sharpshooter. Guys like that like to free wheel when they are shooting. They like the balls open and they want to turn everything into a shooting contest.

Don't give him his game. I'll quote myself here. "Take him up into the tall grass." If you both have balls tied up in a cluster and you can't get yours out clean leave them. Guys like him will lose patience. Give him opportunities to make mistakes.

The game of 8 ball is about changing the circumstances of the game from circumstances where you cannot win into circumstances where you can. If all the balls are in the open any player of medium skiil can run out. Never commit to a run that you can not finish unless racking is something you enjoy. Select the maximum number of balls that you can consistently run out with and leave them on the table until they are in a position you can go all the way. Stop making balls and just concentrate on moving balls. Move yours out of trouble amd move his into trouble.

Stalk you enemy. Wait for the moment. The take him down. Avoid passion. Do it coldy. Unhurried. Their ego will not let them see the truth of what is happeneing to them. You are not making big runs. Not making flashy shots. You are simply, calmly, and quietly killing them.

If they make comments like you're lucky, ignore them completely like you didn't hear them. Say nothing. Walk to the end of the table and prepare to break. This will serve to inflame them and waken their inner fears. Present a character hard as stone. Give them nothing. When you win, say nothing. Lose, miss a ball,...nothing. If you react to your opponent you give him a handle on yourself he can grap onto. Give him nothing and take away his heart. Break him from the inside out. Break him once and you will own him forever.

I played a race to five 8 ball match last year against a guy who never missed a single ball and never missed achieving single safety. I missed two balls in the match. I won 5-3. How? I out played him.


<hr /></blockquote>

Very good advice. Beginning players take awhile to find
out that making balls is not always the way to win. The
way to win is to maintain the advantage of the table at
each turn at the table, that way you optimize your odds for
winning. Sometimes that is running the balls, and sometimes
it means a good safety, or tying up your opponents balls,
and even sometimes tying up opponents balls and even one
of your balls (if you think you are better at breakout shots
than your opponent is). It means to exploit your opponents'
weaknesses, to do that you have to be smart enough to know
his weaknesses. If you know yourself, you can win some of
your battles. If you know your opponent, you can win half
of your battles. If you know yourself and your opponent, you can win most of your battles. (Paraphrased from The Art
of War by Sun Tzu).

longbough
10-24-2005, 11:17 AM
Snapshot9 said a lot of what I was going to say.

Presuming you can hold your own with a basic level of competency (stroke, position etc.), the game becomes a mental one more than anything else - especially in long sessions.

How you approach a "better player" really depends on your own personality. In my case, I was known for becoming entirely "emotionless" in a match - which was alarming to most people who knew me since I'm generally quite animated and expressive socially.

This was a conscious discipline for me. If an opponent has even a fragment of insecurity you might notice them looking to you for your reaction after they've run a table or made a terrific shot. I might tap the butt of my cue but I would never raise an eyebrow. I'd be comfortably sitting in silence - even if I was down 7 games to 1 in a race to 9.

On the other hand, if I just ran a table or made a terrific shot I'd show no emotion. Similarly, if I just made a crappy error I'd act the same way. Many people tend to play faster when they're starting to shoot the lights out, but I'd play slowly and methodically for every shot no matter how difficult or easy. This allowed me to control the pace of the game - and, it drove some of the more "attention deficient/hyperactive" players crazy. (I should clarify that I wasn't playing a "snail's pace" just to be a jerk - I was just not playing to a normal "rhythm", if that makes any sense.)

Often times, some good players (not knowing how to read me) would find their confidence shaken and their game would fall apart after a while. This is how you can come back - even if your opponent just ran out 7 games in a row in a race to 9 - which I've done.

Truly solid players, of course, weren't fazed by me at all. But the discipline also helped me maintain a consistent game - even after several hours of play.

But what works for you really depends on your own personality.

bluey2king
10-25-2005, 10:34 AM
Good Post friend!
Except for the one guy who shouts.
there are three points that I pick out that have helped me in the past.
always leave two balls in a nice place for your run out.
and people dont do this much but that pushing a ball to tieup one or more of his has worked for me!!
Eight Ball is a cunning game and demetion that I enjoy.
I would like to hear how this develops.

Drop1
10-25-2005, 07:50 PM
See my post "The new guy" it plays out pretty good.