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ceebee
10-19-2005, 05:52 AM
Why we could not save the people of New Orleans.
The New York Daily News
Sept. 4, 2005 (Excerpted)

In the late 1990s, the Louisiana state's school systems ranked dead last in the nation, in the number of computers per student (1 per 88), and Louisiana has the nation's second-highest percentage of adults who never finished high school. By the state's own measure, 47% of the public schools in New Orleans rank as "academically unacceptable."

These government failures are not merely a matter of incompetence. Louisiana and New Orleans have a long, well-known reputation for corruption: as former congressman Billy Tauzin once put it, "half of Louisiana is under water and the other half is under indictment."

That's putting it mildly. Adjusted for population size, the state ranks third in the number of elected officials convicted of crimes (Mississippi is No. 1). Recent scandals include the conviction of 14 state judges and an FBI raid on the business and personal files of a
Louisiana congressman.

In 1991, a notoriously corrupt Democrat named Edwin Edwards ran for governor against Republican David Duke, a former head of the Ku Klux Klan. Edwards, whose winning campaign included bumper stickers saying "Elect the Crook," is currently serving a 10-year prison sentence for taking bribes from casino owners. Duke recently completed his own prison term for tax fraud.

The rot included the New Orleans Police Department, which in the 1990s had the dubious distinction of being the nation's most corrupt police force and the least effective: the city had the highest murder rate in
America. More than 50 officers were eventually convicted of crimes including murder, rape and robbery; two are currently on Death Row.

Billions of dollars are about to pass into the sticky hands of politicians in the No. 1 and No. 3 most corrupt states in America. Worried about looting? You ain't seen nothing yet.

Chopstick
10-19-2005, 09:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ceebee:</font><hr>

Billions of dollars are about to pass into the sticky hands of politicians in the No. 1 and No. 3 most corrupt states in America. Worried about looting? You ain't seen nothing yet.
<hr /></blockquote>

You got that right.

I saw your pop up add on top of AZB. Good to see you getting some advertizing out there. They tour down here switched to ten ball. Do you think I could tape some weight to the top of my breakrak to equal ten balls?

silverbullet
10-19-2005, 09:10 AM
Ceebee,

Thanks for the information. I had no idea that New Orleans was THAT bad. That is way beyond creepy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Laura

wolfdancer
10-19-2005, 09:15 AM
Where is Huey Long, now that they need him????
(Long time passing....)
Great line " half under water......"lol

Gayle in MD
10-19-2005, 05:02 PM
Hey, if we made it a rule not to supply cities with money for re-building after hurricaines unless there were no corrupt local politicians , what cities in this country would qualify? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Here's a question for ya, why do we keep rebuilding overpopulated coastal areas in the likely hurricaine paths in the first place? Seems to me that CAMA, Coastal Area Management (Agency)ought to re-think their coastal management. We're just setting people up for disaster by issuing permits to build in areas which are at risk for disaster, IMO....FWIW

Gayle in Md. FEMA did a lousey job in New Orleans, the worst ever, thank you Mr Brown, and screw you and the horse you rode in on! Mr. Brown that is...

pooltchr
10-19-2005, 08:12 PM
Gayle,
Nobody is saying that every other area is squeeky clean. The post pointed out the well known and well documented facts that NO for many years has taken it to excess. The money has been there...just been getting diverted. That's why so much has been undone. Now with all the federal aid that will be going down there, the rich will be getting richer at the expense of the poverty stricken victims of the corruption. I'm surprised you aren't screaming bloody murder over this. It's just the kind of thing you get so worked up over when it involves the business community. Is it ok for politicians to get rich, but not business owners?

eg8r
10-20-2005, 05:27 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Billions of dollars are about to pass into the sticky hands of politicians in the No. 1 and No. 3 most corrupt states in America. Worried about looting? You ain't seen nothing yet. <hr /></blockquote> This is the scariest part of it all. Everyone in America wants to do/give what they can to help, but you just have to squirm a little when the idea of sending money through that local/state government. It has been proven that dumping money into the school system does not help so the first part of this article is pointless except to show the sad state of affairs of the educational system in place.

eg8r

eg8r
10-20-2005, 05:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a question for ya, why do we keep rebuilding overpopulated coastal areas in the likely hurricaine paths in the first place? <hr /></blockquote> For the same reasons we keep rebuilding overpopulated earthquake zones and any other area that is prone to some sort of natural disaster.

After reading these comments of yours, I am noticing that you really just want to control what everyone does (don't we all). You want to steal from the rich (they can afford it, right?) and you want to tell the poor where to live (right after you give them the money you stole from the rich). Dare I ask, what is next?

eg8r

Gayle in MD
10-20-2005, 07:50 AM
When did I ever write that I am for politicians getting rich at the expense of the poor? Although, Little Bushy's buddies at Halliburton will be raking it in since Bush has arranged that they won't even have to pay the poor people in N.O. minimum wage, which I think I have pointed out already.

By and large, it is the wealthy in this country who own the real estate on the coastline. Since we have every reason to think that these devastating hurricaines will continue, why should they be allowed to re-build, and in many cases, with Federal money? Our tax dollars should be spent on things that advantage the middle class as much as the rich, IMO, such as education and health care reform.

His newest tax policies will further burden the middle class people in this country. Why does he continue this assault on the middle class, while making life so much cushier for those whose biggest problem is what to buy next?

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
10-20-2005, 08:50 AM
It seems that natural disasters have now become the cash cow for politicians and cities. They can't get tax legislation through so now, every time there is a storm, we'll see massive federal handouts with little control.

It is mindful of our opponents in WW2 where we rebuilt all of Europe and part of Asia. In a sick fashion, it is now every policical person's wish to have a natural disaster strike so they can swing for the federal pinyata.....

I hope i'm wrong but it sure seems that way from here.

Deeman

eg8r
10-20-2005, 10:12 AM
[ QUOTE ]
His newest tax policies will further burden the middle class people in this country. <hr /></blockquote> Why don't you ever give any examples of how they will be burdened?

eg8r

pooltchr
10-20-2005, 11:11 AM
Gayle,
Once again, you miss the point completely. You are quick to jump on the republicans because you think they are stealing from the poor and giving it to those big bad nasty business men who keep getting rich. But here, we have some democrats who find ways to funnel revenues into their own pockets, or the pockets of their friends, while the poor people are left out in the cold, and you don't have anything to say about it. If the republicans are evil when they do it, how in the world can you give a free ride to the politicians down there???????
Steve

wolfdancer
10-20-2005, 04:24 PM
In her previous post, Gayle stated " no corrupt local politicians"
Neither Gayle nor I have any faith in the integrity of this administration....Gayle is a little more vocal.
The party in power is always subject to the rant of the other party...as in this example

"You can support the troops but not the president."
--Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)


"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going to happen is they're going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years."
--Joe Scarborough (R-FL)


"Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?"
--Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99


"[The] President . . . is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy."
--Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA)


"American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy."
--Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)


"If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy."
--Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of George W Bush


"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning . . I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area."
--Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)


"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today"
--Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)


"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
--Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)

Re:Clinton sending troops to Bosnia

You don't think Haliburton has profited, handsomely, from it's association with Cheney?

wolfdancer
10-20-2005, 04:35 PM
C,mon Ed8r....them thar statements are absurd.
Now is not the time to argue politics...when we have a major crisis on our hands, and need to pull together, to get through this.
There are another three years left for the present admin, and at the current rate of indictments, there may be nobody left to run the country. Hasn't been this scary since the Teapot Dome Scandal. Lemme look that up, and see which party was in power then.....

Gayle in MD
10-20-2005, 04:54 PM
Well, let me say that I really feel for those people who have lost everything. I just can't even imagine what that must feel like. Also, I don't mind federal money going to help them out. What I mind is the incompetence which accompanies the handling of the money, profiteering, and no resonable accounting for where and how it is spent. This continues to be the hallmark of this administration.

To me, it's important to help people get a roof back over their heads, just not in a below sea level area. To me, this makes absolutely no sense...replenishing sand and sea oats along some coast lines is one thing, rebuilding a city to lay in a bowl below sea level is another thing entirely.

I shudder to think that along with the sacrifice of our young people in Iraq, not to mention the monetary costs of the war, we have to spend our money to re-build the country, when those people are sitting on gold? If anything, they should be paying us for liberating them from a monster. When are they going to start fighting for their own freedom?

As for terrorists, when I think how totally unsecured our country is, I think we need to start fighting them "Overhere" so we won't have to fight them "Overhere"...

JMO...
Gayle

Gayle in MD
10-20-2005, 05:11 PM
I am not against business, I am against an administration whose policies allow corporations to rob and gauge middle class Americans. I am against allowing China to take advantage of us, the way they do now, and I am mad that this administration doesn't do something about it.

I'm mad that we are being inundated with illegal aliens who are law breakers, and that this administration isn't taking Fox by the collar and tearing him a new one.

You have alreaqdy decided that the politicians in New Orleans are going to get their fingers in the till, but you don't have any concerns about the state that has been given more money for natural disasters than any other state, brother Bushy's state, Florida. I suppose you think there has been no corruption down there, right?

I really wish that you and Ed would atleast watch the news. Believe me, Halliburton will be stealing from the poor down there, not a few dim witted democrats. The president has seen that they were awarded no bid contracts, and don't have to pay the workers even minimum wage.

You can't see the forest for the trees.

Gayle in Md. talk about missing the point, lol.

eg8r
10-21-2005, 04:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I am not against business, I am against an administration whose policies allow corporations to rob and gauge middle class Americans. <hr /></blockquote> However, you are not "for" giving any kind of examples of how the middle class is being gouged.

eg8r

wolfdancer
10-21-2005, 06:37 AM
It'll be a moot point anyway.....there will be no middle class, by the end of this term of office.
However, if we need to both finance the war, and the rebuild of Iraq, and in the near future, Atlantis, excuse me,New Orleans.....and the tax breaks were designed just for the rich......the $$ has got to come from somewhere...either the "middle class", or China

Qtec
10-21-2005, 07:58 AM
[ QUOTE ]
There are another three years left for the present admin, and at the current rate of indictments, there may be nobody left to run the country. <hr /></blockquote>
LMAO. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r
10-21-2005, 09:24 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It'll be a moot point anyway.....there will be no middle class, by the end of this term of office.
However, if we need to both finance the war, and the rebuild of Iraq, and in the near future, Atlantis, excuse me,New Orleans.....and the tax breaks were designed just for the rich......the $$ has got to come from somewhere...either the "middle class", or China <hr /></blockquote> Your reply does nothing to answer the question. Gayle goes on and on and on and on and on about how the tax breaks hurt the middle class but never states how. Does anyone have any explanation as to how? Or are you happy enough to trump the line like sheep and never really know what you are saying, but continue to say it because it is anti-Bush?

eg8r

Qtec
10-21-2005, 09:42 AM
Ed, if there is anyone one this board with their head in the sand, it is YOU.
Judith Miller has turned out to be a pawn of the Admin and 6 of the 7 stories which she published in the NY Times giving support to the Admins assertion that Saddam was a threat, have turned out to be almost a dictation of stories that she was given by Rove, Libby etc.ie , stories without any proof.
After these stories were published, the same Admin used these reports to bolster their claims! They went on TV and did a con job on the US public.
Are you starting to get my drift?

Dont give me the"this has nothing to do with taxes garbage', just answer me on this one. If you dare.



Q

wolfdancer
10-21-2005, 09:56 AM
No, I don't say it just to be anti-Bush. The actual costs of the war, were not included in the budget....the costs to reconstruct Iraq...will be enormous. Throw in New Orleans, and our present huge debt to China, etc.
It's not just the middle class...eventually the money will have to be raised through taxation.
I read, but not as much as you, or Gayle. I'm not so much anti Republican,as Iam anti policies.
I respect both your political beliefs, and Gayles...and I'd never insult you for expressing them.
It says a lot for Gayle, that she keeps expressing her concerns, beliefs, views, despite the bitter replies that she gets.
If we can get by the next few years, until Hillery can be elected, we'll be ok. It takes a Clinton to clean up the mess, after a Bush

eg8r
10-21-2005, 12:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
No, I don't say it just to be anti-Bush. The actual costs of the war, were not included in the budget....the costs to reconstruct Iraq...will be enormous. Throw in New Orleans, and our present huge debt to China, etc.
It's not just the middle class...eventually the money will have to be raised through taxation.
I read, but not as much as you, or Gayle. I'm not so much anti Republican,as Iam anti policies.
I respect both your political beliefs, and Gayles...and I'd never insult you for expressing them.
It says a lot for Gayle, that she keeps expressing her concerns, beliefs, views, despite the bitter replies that she gets.
If we can get by the next few years, until Hillery can be elected, we'll be ok. It takes a Clinton to clean up the mess, after a Bush <hr /></blockquote> Basically it is a simple question that is not being answered, how did Bush's tax policy hurt the middle class?

eg8r

eg8r
10-21-2005, 12:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Ed, if there is anyone one this board with their head in the sand, it is YOU.
Judith Miller has turned out to be a pawn of the Admin and 6 of the 7 stories which she published in the NY Times giving support to the Admins assertion that Saddam was a threat, have turned out to be almost a dictation of stories that she was given by Rove, Libby etc.ie , stories without any proof.
After these stories were published, the same Admin used these reports to bolster their claims! They went on TV and did a con job on the US public.
Are you starting to get my drift? <font color="red"> Nobody gets your drift. Your entire post has nothing to do with taxes. Get on the subject. </font color>

Dont give me the"this has nothing to do with taxes garbage', just answer me on this one. If you dare. <font color="red"> Sorry I already said it. If you would like to start a new discussion, by all means, do it. Just in your own thread. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote> You start out your reply by telling me my head is in the sand. You then continue to rant about whatever floats in your head, but you never mention anything about the subject. Then you ask me not to mention that fact that you were unable to produce a single sentence that had anything to do with the thread. Sorry, but that does not cut it. You don't have an answer because you know I am correct that the middle class is not being hurt by Bush's tax policy. However, you will not allow yourself to say this, so you try and change the subject and ask me not to pull you back in. Time to grow up, Q. Be a big boy and comment on the subject.

I have asked the question and the two that replied chose not to answer the question. Gayle will not answer it either, one because she does not want to reply to my posts, and two because she is making it up. There is no proof that Bush's tax policy hurts the middle class and it is pure Leftist BS, no more to it. Come up with a reasonable explanation of how Bush's tax policy hurts the middle class and I will listen. Maybe someone can enlighten Q.

eg8r

wolfdancer
10-21-2005, 02:59 PM
Forget the people of New Orleans...I'm trying to save you....
You seem stalled on this tax issue, "stuck on stupid" my friend would say, but of course, I wouldn't.
I am only claiming that we will all pay, and the middle class, if there still is one, will proportionately pay more then it's share.....
Maybe you are well off, and fear that the other party will take your assets to distribute to the poor and disenfranchised
Maybe you have great medical ins. and can't understand why the min wage folks can't afford any, or why seniors, not so well off depend on medicare, at your expense...
Maybe you think that SS is like the "dole" , another welfare program,..and think it's unfair for you to have to contribute
Maybe the young men in your family have college to attend, and won't be subject to losing a limb, or getting killed in this war....after all, we always sent the poor to fight our battles.
Maybe you don't believe that we were led by false information, into getting into this war, and...
Maybe you don't understand why our involvement is alienating other nations, and that the U. S. credibility is at an all time low.
Maybe Fla is just too close to the sun, and you been out supervising your Hispanic gardeners again, without wearing a hat.
And finally, maybe you think Damien Bush is a great man.

pooltchr
10-21-2005, 05:20 PM
Until we can find politicians that do what is right, rather than what is right for them, we are not going to see any progress. I don't recall the freshman senator's name (a republican)who got on the floor and proposed a bill that would cut the pork out of the budget. A bridge to nowhere in Alaska, a rain forest in another state....he named off several, and proposed cutting these stupid pork projects and using the money to help the people of New Orleans. The senate voted him down 87 to 13. Nobody wants to sacrafice anything. They would all just prefer to spend more money and end up raising taxes. If you are truely concerned about the future of this country, the tax and spend mentality in Washington on the part of BOTH parties is going to have to stop! (Gayle...please note, I said BOTH parties!)
Steve

wolfdancer
10-21-2005, 05:35 PM
Steve, I have no illusions about any politicians, in either party...there are good people in politics, but that vote that you cite...says a lot

ceebee
10-23-2005, 08:57 AM
The apathetic American Voter better shed that apathy &amp; get to the polls. It makes no difference whether the politician is Democrat or Republican, they have all been lying to the American People for 50 years that I know of. They promise us the moon &amp; give us hell. They are corrupt to the last person, some are just worse.

The fraud that is propagated in the Stock Market is a good point, Congress has been in business for 200 years, yet BIG MONEY has a way of getting away with the goods every time. If you steal something at Walmart, you might go to jail for 2-5 years. If you steal 11 billion, you get 6 months of house arrest. HMMM, I wonder why?

Congress has been in business for 200 years, however John Sullivan of Oklahoma has submitted a bill to tighten the reins on illegal aliens, Give me a break. The reins should have been there since day 1.

The politicians want the illegal immigrants in this country so business, far &amp; wide, has cheap labor. Cheap labor is a farewell to the middle class.

Politicians have allowed every major company in America to make their goods in other countries &amp; sell them here, which causes America workers to be unemployed. Our government is unaccountable &amp; corrupt. Things will get worse for the workers of America, especially when the government has to raise taxes to survive.

Members of Congress make sure they have good medical benefits &amp; retirement benfits, but they do nothing to provide for the people that pay their way. A good leader has always made sure his men are fed, before he eats.

The good times are really gone for good. Im 63 &amp; I've seen the "good times".

Sid_Vicious
10-23-2005, 09:26 AM
I totally concur. It is perplexing to me to see people in the same income class as me, who ride one political side without allowing themselves to see what that side is doing to their life and future, not to mention their children's future. It is not acceptable IMO to merely say "Well it doesn't matter if you have a Dem or Rep, they are going to screw you anyway." Where is the sanity in that? Right now today, we just happen to have an administration which obviously does not care to even try and make a smokescreen out of their steering us toward economic demise via illegal immigration. That is atrocious and should piss everyone off in this threatened middle class...sid

pooltchr
10-23-2005, 05:16 PM
If you have read some of my previous posts, you know that while am am strongly conservative, I am not a big fan of the republican party. I believe the Liberterians have the right idea in reducing the size of government. Our constitution outlines the responsibilities of the government, and little by little, they have taken over more and more that was never intended to be within the scope of their powers. The problem is there are too many uneducated voters who go in and vote for the party because their parents and grandparents did, without knowing or understanding what is going on in the world. I think there should be a voter test. If someone doesn't even know what the three branches of government are, or what they are supposed to do, they shouldn't be allowed to vote. I know, that would be considered a racist comment, but it isn't intended that way at all. I just think the people who elect those who will be running the country should at least know a little bit about the job they are hiring someone to do for them.
Lets get some people in Washington who are there to do the job we elect them for, and not promote their own agendas!
Ceebee is right...we haven't had that in at least 40 years.
Steve

ceebee
10-24-2005, 06:30 AM
Our form of government was designed 200+ years ago, when a member of Congress rode a horse or a horse &amp; buggy to &amp; from Washington DC. Congress only worked part of the time, because they had lots of travel time to compensate for.

Things have changed, but the members of Congress have kept the same old rules to provide themselves plenty of leisure time. Idle time is evil time.... so some say. Members of Congress prove that to be true. Do you ever watch C-Span? You see members of Congress preaching to an empty room... Ha!Ha!Ha! that is insanity on our part. If we pay a member of Congress to work, they damned well better work 5 10s a week, 52 weeks a year. They have lots of work to do, lots of corruption to overcome.

Government has grown so large, the nation's taxpayers can't feed it. So the government says, "lets turn up the presses, so we can make more money. As long as we have presses, we have money". My ex-wife thought if she had checks, she had money. She was a lying whore &amp; so is the government.

We could actually divide governent in half. All state reps could go to their respective state capitols. The state senators could go to Washington DC. Laws could be made at the state level, but the federal lawmakers could have an overide to prohibit stupidity &amp; corruption. The laws would then be sifted, massaged &amp; made permanent across the land. (i.e. if you can buy whiskey after 12 on Sunday, you can buy it across the land after 12. If you can gamble 24/7 in Oklahoma, you can gamble 24/7 across the land)

The feds would be in charge of national defense, interstate commerce, interstate travel &amp; foreign relations. No monies would be given to any foreign governnment w/o collateral. Foreign trade would be controlled by state governments (every state operating under the same laws &amp; policies).

No more pork barrel bills, that form of chicanery would be banished. Any &amp; all forms of government lobbying would also be banished &amp; construed to be criminal activity. I heard a talk show host say this, "the only folks not represented in government lobby , is the American taxpayer".

Any criminal activity, on the part of any government employee, would reap total destruction of that employee's entire family (all monies &amp; property would be seized, the entire immediate family incarcerated). Any corporate fraud, which affects private &amp; public investors, would be dealt with in the same manner. If you want to be a crook, you better not get caught.

PQQLK9
10-24-2005, 11:17 AM
tap tap tap

Deeman3
10-24-2005, 11:42 AM
The state senators could go to Washington DC. Laws could be made at the state level, but the federal lawmakers could have an overide to prohibit stupidity &amp; corruption.

<font color="blue"> Charlie,

What in the world would ever make you think the federal government is capable of overseeing the local government. This is to infer that the federal government is, somehow, less corrupt than the local governments. I defy anyone to define any level of government as capable of overseeing any corruption at any level. There are crooks at every level and that doesn't change one iota with Democratics or Republicans...

Deeman</font color>

ceebee
10-24-2005, 12:20 PM
Deeman, I ain't referring to the crooks in office, I'm referring to a new bunch, that have their feet held to a fire.

What difference does it make, the place is already so f&amp;^%$ed up it will never straighten out...

wolfdancer
10-24-2005, 12:24 PM
Them's mighty profound thoughts, and pretty big words, fer one of you Alabama boys.

Deeman3
10-24-2005, 01:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Them's mighty profound thoughts, and pretty big words, fer one of you Alabama boys. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Wolf,

Them might be fighten words fer usuns but, hell, I'm lower than a demorcat's morals here in South Alabama!!!No pool tables over 6 feet long, the balls have the numbers worn off and people think Simonis is a skin condition!

I have made exactly $37.75 playing pool in the 8 weeks I've been here. It was a ring nine ball game with a dollar on the 5 and $2 on the nine. These guys could not run two balls but referred to me as "Lucky". They paid the last two games in Quarters so I knew it was the end of a sailor's dream....

I swear, there has gotta be some law against 9 footers, new chalk and custom cues without Budweiser on the end in this part of the state. Where is Guido?

They saw Deewoman shoot and one said, "She looks as good as that Englishy woman on ESPN!"

She is not. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

God, let me die or send me a few players....I'll even vote for Hillary if she'll bring on pool here. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif</font color>

Deeman

wolfdancer
10-24-2005, 01:32 PM
That has to be the funniest post I've read, since the good old days when Dave Syrja was cracking me up with his unique way with words.
Read it to my friend, over the phone, and he's still laughing.
Well, we are just going to have to start calling you Mr. Lucky....the one,with the Englishy wife.
$37.75 is quite a haul down there, and paid you off in quarters? I knew this hooker once, well that's a different story.....but what you got against Budweiser cues? I also knew this gal , who liked her beer, really enjoyed her beer....and when Bud had this promo....send in ....bottle caps,or sumthin, and you got a free "Bud" cue.....she didn't waste anytime qualifying. I retipped the damnn thing a couple of times for her, but if there was a "hit" in the stick, UPS must have lost it in transit.
Broke her little heart, when she left it behind at a bar, and someone took it. Fortunately though, I had one to give her.Didn't stop her though from trying to requalify fer another.
Guido....you mean Mr. Sandman?
So we got your vote, fer sure, for Hillary???

eg8r
10-25-2005, 06:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Forget the people of New Orleans...I'm trying to save you....
You seem stalled on this tax issue, "stuck on stupid" my friend would say, but of course, I wouldn't.
I am only claiming that we will all pay, and the middle class, if there still is one, will proportionately pay more then it's share.....
<hr /></blockquote> Stuck on stupid? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Aren't you the one refusing to answer the simple question. Give examples of how tax breaks (Bush's tax policy) punish the middle class. It is obvious Gayle cannot answer the question so I was hoping someone in the "intelligent" left (they tell everyone they are so smart and have all the answers) could actually defend some of what they are saying. Since you are speaking the loudest how about you drum up some decent well-thought-out examples of how a tax break, given to everyone that pays income taxes, will hurt the middle class.

eg8r

Deeman3
10-25-2005, 06:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> So we got your vote, fer sure, for Hillary??? <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

I am a man of my word..... </font color>

eg8r
10-25-2005, 06:49 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Until we can find politicians that do what is right, rather than what is right for them, we are not going to see any progress. I don't recall the freshman senator's name (a republican)who got on the floor and proposed a bill that would cut the pork out of the budget. A bridge to nowhere in Alaska, a rain forest in another state....he named off several, and proposed cutting these stupid pork projects and using the money to help the people of New Orleans. The senate voted him down 87 to 13. Nobody wants to sacrafice anything. They would all just prefer to spend more money and end up raising taxes. If you are truely concerned about the future of this country, the tax and spend mentality in Washington on the part of BOTH parties is going to have to stop! (Gayle...please note, I said BOTH parties!) <hr /></blockquote> You are absolutely correct. The spending is out of control. I cannot remember what that bridge in Alaska will cost but it is only for a small number of people. How about that plane that was painted for 250k, using the money from Homeland Security. Politicians all over the country are out of control spending way above their budgets, and this is at all levels of government.

eg8r

Qtec
10-26-2005, 09:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It is obvious Gayle cannot answer the question so I was hoping someone in the "intelligent" left (they tell everyone they are so smart and have all the answers) could actually defend some of what they are saying. <hr /></blockquote>

OK Ed, just for you! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif [ Q to the rescue /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif]

1. The middle clas will end up paying a greater percentage of the total taxes as before.
2. The tax breaks are being financed by borrowing money. This will eventually result in cut-backs. Usually, the first things to be cut are social services which the middle class are much more reliant on than the top third!

For starters.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Q

eg8r
10-26-2005, 12:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
OK Ed, just for you! [ Q to the rescue ]

1. The middle clas will end up paying a greater percentage of the total taxes as before.
2. The tax breaks are being financed by borrowing money. This will eventually result in cut-backs. Usually, the first things to be cut are social services which the middle class are much more reliant on than the top third! <hr /></blockquote> First of all, number 1 is not even an answer, it is speculation. It is by no means an example, not in any stretch of the definition of example.

Number 2 is pretty interesting, however it is completely wrong. Tax break was not funded by borrowing money. You do bring up a good point, why is government paying for most of these social services? They are pork and need to be trimmed off anyways. However, since our government has proven it has no intentions of cutting back spending, this point is moot also. Even when Clinton was stealing from SS to pay off the debt, he never cut any social programs. There is a reason for this, if they cut a social program they know there is no chance that group will vote for them. They are all pretty crooked, but these mere facts are proof to dissolve whatever chance your number 2 could possibly happen. The evidence simply is not there to state they will cut social programs.

eg8r

wolfdancer
10-26-2005, 02:44 PM
first off...we're off topic, about saving the people of New Orleans. And QTEC can't understand, how they could build a city that sits below the sea level.....even though the low point there, near Rotterdam, is 6+ meters below the flood line, while the country sits at a lofty 37 ft, avg. height above a calm sea level.
If they are going to restore N.O. they should take advantage of the Dutch knowhow....hydraulic engineering, the Delta Project....
course that whole country will disappear anyway,some day in a raging storm.
Now onto the tax debate...
#1 is an answer, I beg to differ...not the answer, or maybe not your answer....but at least a pretty informed guess, based on the past.
#2 again you are wrong....while not a direct loan per se....if we are now a borrowing, instead of a lending nation, yet taxes have been cut.....doing some basic arithmetic equations ....if E = T + L
or expenditures financed by taxes plus borrowed $$, as I remember, if T is decreased, then L would have to be increased, unless they just cancel the war, and maybe rebuild N.O. instead of N.I. (New Iraq)
"And why is the gov't paying for these social services....pure pork?"
you're giving your true ideals away with that statement.
Let me give you my uneducated answer......
In a true democracy, the wealth is not only distributed unequally, but without some intervention,would lead to anarchy, as the poor get deeper in debt,while the excess
incomes of the rich, widens the gap logarithmically.
We might now have an indentured class, if it weren't for the socialistic programs that FDR instituted.
So, take a family, where the wage-earner suffers a debilitating illness, perhaps a death...cut out the "pork" as you say...and then what? euthanasia? Who would be left to remove your garbage, or unclog your toilet?
Who would be there to say "Hi, how may I help you?" at the Wal-Mart store?
Let's face it, you need us, the prole class, for now...and that means you might have to chip in for food, or give us minimal health care.
SO it was just Bill Clinton, what raided the SS...

pooltchr
10-27-2005, 05:19 AM
We have never lived in a "true democracy". We are a republic. True democracy amounts to the same a mob rule, and our founding fathers didn't think that was a very good idea.
As far as tax cuts go, tax cuts only have an impact on those who pay taxes to begin with. Since the majority of taxes are paid by the wealthiest, it's natural that they are going to see the biggest dollar amount in a cut. They are still going to be paying most of the taxes.
The tax system in place right now takes money from the wealthy and gives it back to the poor. This is refered to as redistribution of wealth. If you do it enough, you remove the motivation for anyone to be productive. If I don't do anything, the government will just give me some of the rich guys money. And at some point, it certainly sounds like communism. Pick up a copy of"The Fair Tax Book" by Neal Boortz. You might understand that there is a better way that would benefit everyone.
Steve

eg8r
10-27-2005, 05:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
first off...we're off topic, about saving the people of New Orleans. And QTEC can't understand, how they could build a city that sits below the sea level.....even though the low point there, near Rotterdam, is 6+ meters below the flood line, while the country sits at a lofty 37 ft, avg. height above a calm sea level.
If they are going to restore N.O. they should take advantage of the Dutch knowhow....hydraulic engineering, the Delta Project.... <hr /></blockquote> I agree. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
#1 is an answer, I beg to differ...not the answer, or maybe not your answer....but at least a pretty informed guess, based on the past. <hr /></blockquote> It is not an answer to the question I asked. It might be an answer to something else but nothing near what I asked. I asked for examples of how Bush's tax breaks hurt the middle class. The question is in reference to Gayle incessant rants about the middle class now being disadvantaged. She is talking in the present, so my question is being asked in the present.

To try and make it a bit more clear, I am asking for examples of how Bush's tax cuts are hurting the middle class right now.

You say Q's first answer is an answer. Q states the middle class will end up... End up means the future, it is speculation. I am not sure which part of the past you are referring to. When did the middle class EVER pay a larger portion of the taxes than the rich? The only chance of this happening is if the population of the middle was greater than the difference in income from the rich class to the middle. The only period in time I think this could have happened would be in the first couple years, but even then I don't think the middle class was carrying the majority of the weight. Even if the past proves me wrong, look into the future. One of the biggest soapboxes of the left is the rich is getting richer. If this is true, then is the middle getting smaller? If the middle is getting smaller how are the masses of the middle going to overcome in the taxable percentage of the one group that is getting larger (whom by the way already pays the majority)? You cannot have it both ways. Either you look to the past and believe we might head in that direction or you listen to the left and believe the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer.

[ QUOTE ]
#2 again you are wrong....while not a direct loan per se....if we are now a borrowing, instead of a lending nation, yet taxes have been cut.....doing some basic arithmetic equations ....if E = T + L
or expenditures financed by taxes plus borrowed $$, as I remember, if T is decreased, then L would have to be increased, unless they just cancel the war, and maybe rebuild N.O. instead of N.I. (New Iraq)
<hr /></blockquote> You are ignoring the fact that tax breaks always result in an increase in government "income". It has happened every time. When there is a tax break people spend more which results in the government getting those income taxes back in the form of sales tax. It is a revolving door. The money was not depleted from the system during the income tax cut, which is the lie the left tries to perpetuate.

[ QUOTE ]
you're giving your true ideals away with that statement.
<hr /></blockquote> No I am not. You are making statements without knowing any facts.

[ QUOTE ]
Let me give you my uneducated answer......
In a true democracy, the wealth is not only distributed unequally, <hr /></blockquote> I am glad you chose to preface your reply the way you did. In the first sentence you show us why you chose to preface it in such a way. A true democracy, does not distribute wealth. This is where you are sadly mistaken. I know this may be tough for you to accept, but wealth is not distributed, it is EARNED!!! Now back to your first statement, who lives in a true democracy. The US is not a true democracy and we don't intend on it either. Go back to your Government studies in high school and you will see that the US is a federal republic.

eg8r

Qtec
10-27-2005, 08:48 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Comparison to earlier analyses

Some may recall that when CTJ previously analyzed the Bush tax cuts, we found that “only” 38 percent of the tax breaks were targeted to the top one percent —a statistic widely cited in the press. The reason why the rich’s share jumps to more than half by 2010 in CTJ’s new study reflects the exploding impact of the individual “alternative minimum tax.”

CTJ’s earlier analyses measured the distribution of the Bush tax program as if each element were “fully effective” (and we presented our results in 2001 dollars). That meant we counted the bill’s limited alternative-tax relief, even though that is oddly scheduled to expire after 2004. But in our latest effort, we analyzed the bill’s specific effects in each year from 2001 to 2010, taking account of the fact that after 2004, the alternative-tax relief disappears.

Our new 2010 snapshot find that two-thirds of the ostensible Bush income tax cuts for the 27 million taxpayers making between $100,000 and $500,000 in 2010 will be wiped out by the alternative tax. That in turn makes the share of the total tax cuts going to the millionaires in the top one percent (who will forfeit only 7 percent of their tax cuts due to the alternative tax) much larger.

Evenhanded?

CTJ’s new study conclusively exposes the chicanery of the Bush administration and its supporters in arguing that the tax cuts were even-handed. “After all,” they claimed, “the rich pay most of the taxes, so it’s only fair that they get the lion’s share of the tax cuts.” <font color="blue"> where have I heard that before. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color> But in fact, in 2010 before the Bush tax cuts, the top one percent was expected to pay just over a quarter of all federal taxes (don’t feel too bad for these people; they’ll take in 19 percent of all the income). So a tax cut that gives the richest Americans more than half of its benefits is obviously anything but even-handed.

Compared to the federal taxes that would have been paid in 2010 before the tax cuts, Bush’s program reduces taxes on the wealthiest by 15 percent. For the remaining 99 percent of us, the tax cuts average only 5 percent. More tellingly, by 2010, the very rich will see their taxes fall by 5.7 percent of their income. For the remaining 99 percent, the average tax cut is only 1.2 percent of income.




http://www.ctj.org/html/gwb0602.htm

<hr /></blockquote>

Boeing and exxon both anounced massive profits this week. Both get tax breaks from GW. Didnt Boeing get a deal worth 23 billion dollars?
GW is giving money away and most of it is going to big Corps and the super rich.
How does that help the middle class, whoever they are! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

BTW, to do what the Dutch have done, you need to be willing to spend trillions of $$.

Q.........you dodged the question of social services being cut.

eg8r
10-27-2005, 10:36 AM
Not sure of the reason for posting the top part. It states the top 1% of income earners pay in over 25% of all taxes. Sounds like the rich pay the majority, and the middle is not hurt or helped by that.

[ QUOTE ]
Boeing and exxon both anounced massive profits this week. Both get tax breaks from GW. Didnt Boeing get a deal worth 23 billion dollars?
<hr /></blockquote> You are muddying the waters and I don't know if it is because of ignorance or on purpose, but there is a big difference in Corporate taxes and income taxes. When we are discussing lowering the taxes on individuals (meaning discussion about rich and poor PEOPLE) we are not referring to tax breaks taken by companies.

[ QUOTE ]
GW is giving money away and most of it is going to big Corps and the super rich. <hr /></blockquote> More of the ridiculous lies that left tries to spread. Anyone who believes this is quite ignorant. GW (meaning government) does not "give" money away. Wake up and smell the coffee. if you want us to listen to what you say drop the political lies and state the truth. The correct and only way to word your statement (and by helping you does not mean I agree with you) is, " <font color="blue"> GW is <font color="blue"> ALLOWING PEOPLE TO KEEP MORE OF THEIR OWN </font color> money and most of it is going to big Corps and the super rich. </font color> " I don't agree with the statement because once again you are muddying the waters by mixing people and business. The taxes are not the same.

Another reason why I don't agree with your statement is because of your ignorance on business taxes. The first rule of business is that "businesses don't pay taxes". Taxes that a business owes are flowed down to the consumer. If the taxes on a business stay the same or go up, so do the cost of goods. This is why HR 25 is a win-win for everyone.

[ QUOTE ]
How does that help the middle class, whoever they are! <hr /></blockquote> This is a strawman argument and I think that is why you put the stupid smiley face on it. You darn good and well no one was aruging that taxes or tax breaks were "good" for the middle. The discussion is whether the tax cuts were bad. Your desire to sway from the subject is proof you don't know what you are talking about and you think it would be easier to sway us into discussing something else. You have pulled this crap since your first post.

[ QUOTE ]
Q.........you dodged the question of social services being cut. <hr /></blockquote> I have not dodged anything, my response to wolfdancer was in PM to reply to the pm he sent me.

This is the only "question" I see in which I did not answer, if this is the one you are referring, then my response will be below. If it is not, then quote the question again and I will answer it.

[ QUOTE ]
So, take a family, where the wage-earner suffers a debilitating illness, perhaps a death...cut out the "pork" as you say...and then what? euthanasia? Who would be left to remove your garbage, or unclog your toilet? <hr /></blockquote> I see a few questions but they all run together, so to answer it, I mentioned that wolfdancer made the statement without any facts. Actually what happened is that wolfdancer decided to take a very very extreme example that could not be argued against, instead of using something a little more common. In my PM to him I stated that I believe there is pork in every bill Congress passes. Social Services are full of pork and there is always room to cut.

Thank you for hypocritically pointing out that I did not fully answer his questions in public but since he went forward and sent me a PM, I answered him there. The day you actually answer a question without sidestepping the actual subject matter will be the day the Lord takes us all away.

eg8r

wolfdancer
10-27-2005, 11:00 AM
Steve, even I, who wasn't able to attend, on a basketball scholarship, one of your fine higher learning institutes, there in N. C.....even I know the difference between a republic and a democracy. in a true democracy, that lunatic in the White House, would be back home where he belongs. But i thank you and Ed8r for the correction.
My use of the word,although we are said to live in a Democratic society, and fighting a war to promote democracy abroad, was as an allegory to the laissez faire system that allows everyone to succeed, theoretically. However, wealth begets wealth, while the poor beget more poor.
It's a great system, and I'm not knocking it.
Reading that fine book that you recommend, probably wouldn't dispute the many published reports (probably by the lunatic left) pointing out the inequities in the tax breaks.
And while I'm at it, i should thank Ed8r for his fine explanation of the "trickle-down" economic theory.
Seems to me, and this is just a guess, that to meet both yours and Ed8r's high standards of Republicanism....you have to "buy" into the whole package, ignore the inconstistancies, and outright lies....or be labeled a liberal.....which sounds to me, so much better then a zealot,esp. if you apply this meaning:
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
This is really a pointless discussion....you and eg8r have your political views, however flawed they may be, and I have mine... there's no middle ground, and I'd just as soon sign up as a member of the www.jessehelmscenter.org/ (http://www.jessehelmscenter.org/)
then buy into the Bush Admin.

wolfdancer
10-27-2005, 11:52 AM
Eg8r, sometimes, i think, you are guilty of circular reasoning. you make a couple of suppositions, state your "obvious" conclusion, and then demand that we disprove it.
It's time to get off your pulpit, end your tirade and move on..
I'll concede that Bush's tax package is the finest I've seen since that 20 mule team Borax's spokesperson, George Gipp, introduced us to Reagonomics.
Now, we can agree ALL Americans are sharing equally in the largesse...but,how we going to pay for the war? N.O.?
And I owe you an apology, of sorts...in another post, i was comparing the present admin's problems to the "Teapot Dome" scandal....but i looked that up....and that was about oil.Oil, hmmm; the only similiarity i could find was that we had a Republican President.
And let's hope that HIStory will not repeat itself:
The official cause of(Harding's) death was listed as a stroke. Some doctors felt that a more likely cause was a heart attack. Some people believed that Harding's wife had finally become fed up with his affairs, and poisoned him because the scandal was coming to the surface. The fact that Mrs. Harding refused to allow an autopsy, and would not permit a death mask to be made gave fuel to these rumors.

I'm going to resign from any further political discussions here....good luck educating the other interested posters here, and good luck "selling" your political epistemology; your "Pascal's Wager" on Bush.

Gayle in MD
10-27-2005, 05:52 PM
Fabulous! Good post.

I refuse to try to educate eg8r. He's always so far out of touch, it seems monumental to even think of attempting to enlighten him. He'll just have to melt into that conservative no mans land called Fox and Friends and live in the realm of fair and balanced BS for the rest of his life.

The radical, extremist religious right in this country is going to turn back the clock of human progress so far so fast now that Rove sold them on this coke snorting booze guzzling presidential misfit, it will take decades to straighten things out after Bush spends his political bucks.

Meanwhile the bible thumping pharmacists in the bible belt will still be shoving viagra accross the counter while refusing to fill prescriptions for birth control pills, and all those mentally lazy folks like they have down in N.O., the ones that Eg8r and pool teacher hate so much, will be multiplying like rabbits, along with the illegal aliens, which Bush has welcomed accross our borders, "come on over and sign up for welfare with a house full of anchor babies."

And now we find that Eg8r's beloved US Corporations are knee deep in the oil for food scandle, imagine that! They've been giving kick backs to Saddam for years! We're financing this war from both sides anyway.....

The radical right....ever notice the beady little eyes they all have? Check out Rove, Cheney, Scooter, Rice and Bush....beady evil little squinty eyes....

Here's to Fitzpatrick, only one who isn't a girly man....I hope he goes all the way back to the lies this evil bunch told us that got us into this war with no end. I hope they all get thrown in jail....more and more republicans are disillusioned with Bushy, and more and more U.S. Generals are speaking out against the stupidity and incompetence which they have displayed.

He's going down, and all Laura can do is smile...nod...smile...nod...smile...nod

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
10-27-2005, 07:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The discussion is whether the tax cuts were bad. Your desire to sway from the subject is proof you don't know what you are talking about and you think it would be easier to sway us into discussing something else. You have pulled this crap since your first post. <hr /></blockquote>

If you read the first post, NOTHING was mentioned about taxes. It sounded to me to be about tackling corruption. YOU are the one who takes every opportunity to go off on your favourite rant!

Taxes, income or corporate, are extremely complicated and I have never claimed to be an expert in the US tax system, but even I know that if you reduce taxes, across the board, the gap between rich and poor grows ever wider and I dont think this is good for the country as a whole.
You continually refer to social services as being funded by your stolen money but you find it acceptable for the Govt to give huge tax breaks to companies who are making record profits!
In the USA, to attain power, you need money and lots of it. Money buys elections and politicians. Its not good for democracy for too much money to be controlled by a small number of people. Look at the last election- out of 300,000,000 people you have to choose between two millionares from the same backround and who just happen to belong to the same secret society!
Corruption was the theme of this thread before you started stamping your foot but then with DeLay and First being investigated and Rove/ Libby on the ropes, I can understand your reluctance to stay on topic. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Q.........not privy to other posters pm's.

eg8r
10-28-2005, 04:05 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If you read the first post, NOTHING was mentioned about taxes. It sounded to me to be about tackling corruption. YOU are the one who takes every opportunity to go off on your favourite rant! <hr /></blockquote> You might want to read through the whole thread again. This portion began when I asked Gayle to explain herself.

[ QUOTE ]
You continually refer to social services as being funded by your stolen money but you find it acceptable for the Govt to give huge tax breaks to companies who are making record profits!
<hr /></blockquote> Show me where I said that. You make these things up in your head and then after time you believe them.

[ QUOTE ]
Corruption was the theme of this thread before you started stamping your foot <hr /></blockquote> Do yourself a favor and do a little reading before you put your foot in your mouth. Gayle started the foot stamping by making statements that are outright lies. I just asked her a simple question.

[ QUOTE ]
Q.........not privy to other posters pm's. <hr /></blockquote> You are darn right. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
10-28-2005, 04:16 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Meanwhile the bible thumping pharmacists in the bible belt will still be shoving viagra accross the counter while refusing to fill prescriptions for birth control pills, and all those mentally lazy folks like they have down in N.O., the ones that Eg8r and pool teacher hate so much, <hr /></blockquote> Hmmm...I remember a few posts and PMs from you, really despising the fact that I would state you "hate" the current admin.

eg8r

pooltchr
10-28-2005, 04:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> mentally lazy folks like they have down in N.O., the ones that Eg8r and pool teacher hate so much, <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle,
In all of my posts, I don't recall ever saying I hate ANYONE! You are twisting things again.
Since you seem to hate everyone in the present administration, I guess you think it's ok. I do not hate anyone, nor any group of people in general, and I resent the implication in your post. Is this the liberal way...attack what you don't understand????????
Steve

Gayle in MD
10-28-2005, 06:33 PM
You are right. I apologize, I shouldn't have used the word "Hate". I'm sorry, I won't make that mistake again.
Gayle

Gayle in MD
10-28-2005, 06:36 PM
I apologize for using thae word "Hate". I won't do that again.

Gayle

Sid_Vicious
10-28-2005, 07:41 PM
You guys use the word liberal like it is an ugly depiction,,,why not grow up and quit playing this broken record. I expect to find a string hanging out of your backs, yanking it like a puppet, "liberal, liberal, liberal." You can't make a point about someone hinting at a hate word when you inject a pointed slant back at that person in the response. Petty and unimpressive imo...sid

pooltchr
10-29-2005, 06:44 AM
When I was younger, I was a liberal. I didn't become a conservative until I was quite a bit more mature.
I don't think of either as a "bad" thing. Just a very different philosophy.
Steve

pooltchr
10-29-2005, 06:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> I apologize for using thae word "Hate". I won't do that again.

Gayle <hr /></blockquote>

Thank You!
No hard feelings!
Believe it or not, I actually enjoy debating with you. I just try not to let it get personal.
Steve

Gayle in MD
10-29-2005, 08:52 AM
Ditto... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Now if only you could stop missing the point! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

pooltchr
10-29-2005, 09:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Ditto... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Now if only you could stop missing the point! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

DITTO!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DebraLiStarr
10-29-2005, 10:02 AM
I own several homes here in the Orlando area. I timeshare a home here in the Disney-belt, because its a smart thing to do.

When Katrina hit, and I saw the devastation, I was in a position to help. The home I timeshare was being re-carpeted and it was going to be vacant until November 17. I contacted the Red Cross and offered to donate my home to help a displaced family. This would be the beginning of my nightmare. The family received money during the time they were in my home. The family understood that they were being "relocated" and that they needed to look for employment - and permanant housing. They did none of that. I had Grandma, Grandpa, Mom, Dad and the kids staying in a home the I generously offered to them out of the goodness of my heart. They refused to do anything beyond sitting around and bitching about their accomodations. They used their "Government money" to visit the theme parks and to by drugs. They had relatives from North Carolina squatting in my home as well. Dad was arrested for cocaine possession (in the home that I own) - which is terribly embarrassing. When it was obvious that I was being taken advantage of, I contacted the Red Cross in an attempt to have them removed. These people spit in my face, were very uncooperative, nasty, vulgar, and unappreciative. In the end, I had to go to court and have them removed from the premises by the Sheriff. In the end, they shouted racial slurs at me and called me ugly names as the Sheriff's deputies forcefully removed them from the premises. There was damage done to my home (walls damaged, broken windows, dishes broken - purposely - to vent their frustration with me asking them to leave.)

Last year I lost my home to Hurricane Charles. I did all of this because I received a lot of help last year. Today, I am in a position to help - I also donated monetarily to the relief efforts because I have been blessed, and I thought I was doing the right thing. This entire experience has changed my view on helping people. I'm not classifying everyone as being as horrible as the family that stayed in my home - but I have been stung by people that just wanted to take advantage of the system. I am not alone in my experience. There are many people throughout this tragic situation that have taken advantage of people who are guilty of only having their heart in the right place. I am financially well off, but that doesn't make me a bad person because I have worked very very hard to get where I am at, does it?

This problem has nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with people. That is what I think is wrong with the world. The people that are in a position to do something are too damn worried about how their decisions will be viewed "politically". Its a game of power and control and it is played by both liberal and conservative parties. They are all motivated by their own selfish aspirations. Until that changes, I'll keep what I have to myself and be much more careful when I open my heart and share my blessings. The reason we couldn't help anybody is because everybody (in the entire political system for the past 40 years) has their head jammed up their butt. The democrats blame the republicans, and the republicans blame the democrats and while all of the fingerpointing and posturing is going on nothing gets accomplished. We've become exactly what we didnt want to be like back in 1776.

What's the solution? Maybe we can put congress on an island - sort of like survivor - and each week we can vote them off the island - each person voted off is banned from participating in the political process until they pull their head out of their ass. Before you laugh, think about it. They get away this crap and they also get paid for it. Let's start holding them accountable. Let's start holding PEOPLE accountable for their decsions as well. If you make choices and decisions that land you butt in poverty - be accountable for the result of your actions. Don't pass it on to me - and don't call me a bad person for pointing out the irresponsibility. Before I get attacked - let me say that I do not come from a rich family at all. I earned my education by working hard and my hard work was rewarded with academic scholarships. As a result of my education I was able to work my way to where I am at now. I took advantage of opportunites that were placed before me. It's not rocket science. You just have to have your priorities in order - some people do - some people just don't have a clue. Start holding people accountable from the top to the bottom.

wolfdancer
10-29-2005, 10:22 AM
Before he was "indoctrinated", his mind was first returned to ..."tabula rasa"
Etymology: Latin, smoothed or erased tablet
the mind in its hypothetical primary blank or empty state before receiving outside impressions

Same thing happened to Winston Smith in "1984"
and to Raymond Shaw in "The Manchurian Candidate"
It's a lost cause for you...He now loves Big Brother....

wolfdancer
10-29-2005, 10:32 AM
Debra, what a lousy experience for you....and you were trying to help. I have extra room in my house, and thought of doing something....but after reading your story...I'll just send along another cash donation instead.

silverbullet
10-29-2005, 02:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Meanwhile the bible thumping pharmacists in the bible belt will still be shoving viagra accross the counter while refusing to fill prescriptions for birth control pills, and all those mentally lazy folks like they have down in N.O., the ones that Eg8r and pool teacher hate so much, will be multiplying like rabbits, along with the illegal aliens, which Bush has welcomed accross our borders, "come on over and sign up for welfare with a house full of anchor babies."
<hr /></blockquote>

Hi Gayle,

I would never thump my Bible over anybody's head. It is a real nice leather one I paid $125 for and would never break it over the head of an idiot. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Actually, no kidding aside 'the bible thumpers' if I get what you mean are not good examples of 'Christ followers', nor would they be good Buddhists or agnostics either, IMO.

Go figure. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Laura

silverbullet
10-29-2005, 02:26 PM
Debra,

What a lousy experience. Sounds like you are really generous. I do not have a lot of money, but when I do have extra I am very careful who I give it to.

Laura

pooltchr
10-29-2005, 05:38 PM
Debra,
I hate that you were taken advantage of in this situation. However, you make some very valid points. We have become a society of victims. If we are poor, it's not our fault, so someone has to give us money. If we are careless enough to pour hot coffee in our lap, it's not our fault, it's the people who fixed the coffee. If anything is wrong in our life, we blame someone else. I agree we need accountability from everyone. As for the politicians, I dare say if I performed my job as poorly as most of them, I would be unemployed.
Here's a thought...do away with the party name on the voting ballot....do away with straight party voting...and force voters to consider the individual they are voting for rather than the party they belong to. There are too many people who vote for the party rather than the person...and look at the result!
Very good and thought provoking post.
Thank You!
Steve

DebraLiStarr
10-29-2005, 09:13 PM
Steve,
Thanks. You may think what I said makes a lot of sense, but this type of talk is the same thing that got Jesse Ventura elected as Governor of Minnesota. He was tired of politics as usual. In the end, he was very effective in a leadership role, but he made too many enemies in the process. Its a control issue and they enjoy having the power, yet they do nothing with it. Hence, we end up with what happened with Katrina. It could be Bush's fault - it could be congress' fault. Instead of using energy to come to a solution - they use it to position themselves in their stance that is either for or against something. There is more time spent on political maneuvering than anything else. Its a waste of time and a waste of our tax dollars. Special interest groups are buying these people off left and right. They fund the campaigns in exchange for votes. This is a widely accepted practice and both parties participate. We have people dying in Iraq every day while these dimwits are playing a round of golf with lobbyists. Send congress over there to man the battle stations during the holiday season. Let's see how fast they work towards a solution when their ass is put in the line of fire. I say throw them in uniform and have them guard something - and have them in constant danger of being blown up - let them see how that feels - let their family sit at home worrying about them. There is no accountability and there is no attempt by ANYONE republican or democrat - to put the needs of OUR country first. The hell with the rest of the world, we have major problems within our own borders. Katrina was a domestic disaster and our response was aweful - and avoidable. The Politicians made it that way - not FEMA. We need to hold the polititians accountable (N.O. Mayor, La. Governor - etc).

Chopstick
10-30-2005, 06:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DebraLiStarr:</font><hr>

If you make choices and decisions that land you butt in poverty - be accountable for the result of your actions. Don't pass it on to me - and don't call me a bad person for pointing out the irresponsibility. Before I get attacked - let me say that I do not come from a rich family at all. I earned my education by working hard and my hard work was rewarded with academic scholarships. As a result of my education I was able to work my way to where I am at now. I took advantage of opportunites that were placed before me. It's not rocket science. You just have to have your priorities in order - some people do - some people just don't have a clue. Start holding people accountable from the top to the bottom. <hr /></blockquote>

Careful DL. With an attitude like that you are going to be accused of being a heartless right wing nut job, possibly even a red neck. Getting ahead in America boils down to just a few things. The ambition to make your life better and having the guts and discipline to go and do something about it.

I don't even have an education and I still worked my way to the top of a highly technical field. I started out as a street corner bum in South Memphis. I would be the first to help anyone who is trying to get ahead because I know exactly how it feels to be down in life, alone, forgotten and apart from society. For those that won't even try, they made their bed, let them lie in it.

Ambition, guts, discipline, and the will to win. That's all it takes. If you only have this you will find the way. I am living proof of that.

DebraLiStarr
10-30-2005, 07:35 AM
Heartless right wing nut-job....You know, I kinda like that!
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm not talking about people like yourself, Chopstick. I'm talking about people that have no guts, ambition, or discipline. People that are very comfortable existing where they are at as the result of their decisions. I was raised by parents that stressed the importance of education. For me, it opened up a lot of doors. I'm not saying it is the ONLY path, but the path I took is open to anyone if they want it bad enough. I'm tired of people that point fingers and say that the world is unfair (like the people that stayed in my home.) You and I both know that Orlando has jobs - not all of them are high paying jobs - but they are jobs. There is no reason to be unemployed in our area, but if you look around - it's ridiculous. People dont want to work at a hotel, or they dont want to work at the theme parks, or they dont want to work. These people were being relocated to Orlando and came up with every excuse not to find work, or an apartment. They wanted to stay in my home until they could be placed in government housing, or until they got the green light to go back to New Orleans. I was a mean evil, Asian woman because I wanted them out of the home. They did not want to work at all - it was not an option for them. If they wanted to stay in my home past October 21, they would have to pay the rate that I charge ($1250 a week, which is pretty standard as far as time share homes go.)As a graduate student I held 2 full time jobs and 1 part time job - because that is what it took. In my current position I am still putting in 12-13 hour days regularly. What I am saying is that some people are not willing to do what it takes. Obviously you realized that success requires guts, ambition, and discipline, its not handed to you in the form of a welfare check - and you'll get nowhere staying at home watching Jerry Springer.

BTW... are you a heartless right wing nut-job? Is there a club to join? Is Ed the president? LOL!!! The Orlando Area Right Wing Nut Job Commission. Wait a second.. nut-job? That sounds nasty.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Sid_Vicious
10-30-2005, 09:53 AM
"BTW...The Orlando Area Right Wing Nut Job Commission. Wait a second.. nut-job? That sounds nasty."

Please, PLEASE, PLEEEEZE do not have Ed nor the Chopster's post any personal jpegs! /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif sid

Sid_Vicious
10-30-2005, 10:26 AM
I wish there was truly an effective, third party option. Sadly though, mainly due to the electorate college(get a popular vote as a final election tool IMMHSO)...we are stuck with this sucky system. We ain't going nowhere as an improvement until these two powerhouses exist. I am personally neither right nor left, but I know very well today where I am NOT, and that is "right wing." This in itself alienates many of us here, and that is neither fair nor productive for the US political engine. We are all losers in the end-run, which BTW may be a total end to the middle class of this society. Above all though, the right/left, liberal/conservative labels have divided many friends and family. Is that new?, no, but in this time of worldly confusion, it is certainly dangerous in both wealth and safety. Take away the "accountability safety net" which shelters politicians, especially those in the top levels of Gvmt, and we'll see change. Until then this country is at the whim of big money, big influence, none of which is conducive to the protection for those Americans who have lived here, paid into the system for decades, UNLESS you happen to be in the upper class, or ironically the lowest class, i.e. illegal aliens. I say again, "What is so hard to understand that illegal means illegal!?" Around here in No Texas, the local governments are building shelters for illegals waiting for day jobs, spending my tax dollars, and I'll express this even better, IT'S RIGHT ACROSS FROM THE COUNTY COURTHOUSES IN MANY CASES! What's that supposed to say about legal and illegal activities to all of the law abiding citizens? I can honestly miss stopping at a stop sign due to an obstruction, have an accident due to no purposed intentions to do so, and there is no levity given. But someone can purposely cross our border, stand across from my courthouse for work, and get tax dollars spent to aid them. If it was me, I'd have an INS agent stroll over there for his coffee break once a day to let them know we were not condoning their illegal status.

Illegal is illegal...sid

wolfdancer
10-30-2005, 01:22 PM
Here's my version of reports that the N.O. police shot civilians
"We fired our guns and they natives kept a'coming,
there wasn't nigh as many as there was awhile ago.
We fired once more and they began a running,
down the Mississippi to the....."

LC3
10-30-2005, 10:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DebraLiStarr:</font><hr>I contacted the Red Cross and offered to donate my home to help a displaced family. This would be the beginning of my nightmare.<hr /></blockquote>
My father and stepmother had a Fresh Air child stay with them for a summer, and even that turned out to be a strain. The girl's mother quickly smelled my father's money and put her up to making long distance calls to out-of-state relatives and asking my father to buy her stuff. When my father said enough was enough, the mother got indignant. It was the typical "I'm a victim, and you're complicit in my victimization because you have money" attitude. I can't imagine having a whole family with that mentality living in my house. My heart goes out to you, Debra.

I remember my ultraliberal university professors talking about how the poor were created and held down by affluent America. I fell for that for about five minutes, then looked around and realized several of my classmates were hardworkers of modest means who were doing what it took to get ahead. For those who can't go to university, there are still plenty of opportunities to get ahead. Just one example is the public library with its bounty of free resources. As the old saw goes, if they spent half as much energy at the library or in night school as they did making excuses...

eg8r
10-31-2005, 04:57 AM
LOL, I would never do that to anyone. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Deeman3
10-31-2005, 09:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Here's my version of reports that the N.O. police shot civilians
"We fired our guns and they natives kept a'coming,
there wasn't nigh as many as there was awhile ago.
We fired once more and they began a running,
down the Mississippi to the....." <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> Gulf of Mexico...

There was a house in New Orleans, they callled it the rising sun, it's been the ruin of many a poor boy and, God, Wolf, I know you are one.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif</font color>

Deeman

DebraLiStarr
10-31-2005, 11:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LC3:</font><hr> I can't imagine having a whole family with that mentality living in my house. My heart goes out to you, Debra.
<hr /></blockquote>

Lou,
They weren't in the home that I actually live in. I have my own home that I live in and I have two other properties. I bought the home they stayed in a year ago and I timeshare it to tourists that visit this area. Last year I was able to keep it occupied for 48 out of 52 weeks. This home is an investment for me. The upkeep isn't cheap. September/October is put aside (slow season) to do repairs, replace some carpeting, paint, etc. I made the decision to donate this home because of what I went through last year when my house was destroyed by Hurricane Charles.

In the end I was able to get these people out of my home, but it took a lot of legal work and maneuvering to pull it off. I found out that I had no right to "evict" them(???) but they had no lease agreement. I will never do this again under any circumstances. What hurt the most was that my kindness was not appreciated at all, and it was taken advantage of. Perhaps these people would have been happier in the Astrodome? I don't know.

DickLeonard
11-01-2005, 07:03 AM
Wolfdancer if we can get Huey Long back maybe he can bring Lee Harvey Oswald with him.####

DickLeonard
11-01-2005, 07:17 AM
EG8r this country has been taken over by Right Wing Thieves whose main plot is to destroy the govt ability to manage their debts there by forcing the govt to choose between War and Welfare. Reagan Started it by Taking the govt 5 trillion in debt. Clinton got us out of the hole and now GWB put us back in the hole. Corporations funnel money to PACs to get people elected ala Tom Delay he gets arrested but the Corporations have not been arrested. Their one oath is never to raise taxes while spending way beyond our means. We once were the mightest Country but now China is #one. #### *

Chopstick
11-01-2005, 08:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> We once were the mightest Country but now China is #one. #### * <hr /></blockquote>

The private citizens of the United States collectively own more firepower than the entire Chinese army. China couldn't whip Texas, much less the US Military.

Deeman3
11-01-2005, 01:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> We once were the mightest Country but now China is #one. #### * <hr /></blockquote>

The private citizens of the United States collectively own more firepower than the entire Chinese army. China couldn't whip Texas, much less the US Military. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Chopstick,

China might not even be able to handle New York if they got a hold of the right (or wrong) gang.

However, I'll have to agree with Dick, they will win the war of the economy sooner or later. 1.5 billion people at .10 an hour. Whew, The main thing I rememebr about my trips to China was how damn hard those little guys work, seven days a week and for peanuts (or cashews).

The only thing that will save the people of New Orleans is pork. Billions and billions of dollars worth of pork projects. They will get a Mickie D's on every corner and a disney like ride called "Streetcar Named Desire" and billions and billions for the politicians to spend on worthless projects that will destroy, once and for all, a great city. </font color>

Deeman

Chopstick
11-02-2005, 10:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>
However, I'll have to agree with Dick, they will win the war of the economy sooner or later. 1.5 billion people at .10 an hour. Whew, The main thing I rememebr about my trips to China was how damn hard those little guys work, seven days a week and for peanuts (or cashews).
<hr /></blockquote>

China and India are just a temporary phenomenon. As their economies develop they will be subject to the same inflationary pressures are everyone else. When that happens we will just take our business else where like we always have. Never underestimate the power of good ole American greed. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

LC3
11-02-2005, 09:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DebraLiStarr:</font><hr>Lou, They weren't in the home that I actually live in.<hr /></blockquote>
I understood that. I've thought about investing in real estate, but I'd want to flip it. I couldn't be bothered with having tenants.

[ QUOTE ]
I found out that I had no right to "evict" them(???) but they had no lease agreement.<hr /></blockquote>
So once you let someone stay in your house, you lose your rights? Very nice. On the other hand, why am I not more surprised? /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

LC3
11-02-2005, 10:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>China and India are just a temporary phenomenon.<hr /></blockquote>
We could put them in check by pulling our troops out of the region. Without us as referee, China, Japan, and the Koreas would dramatically increase their military spending. They'd become so consumed by economic competition with each other that competition with the US would fall by the wayside (if the US managed its foreign relations correctly, which we probably wouldn't).