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View Full Version : Kevin Trudeau answers many more pressing questions



denoandrews
10-26-2005, 08:46 PM
New Questions that are answered on the IPT Q&A here:
http://www.internationalpooltour.co...d_a/default.asp

What was the selection process for the 150 players chosen to be the first members of the IPT?

What if a player selected loses so badly in the first tournament that they choose not to play in any other tournaments for the rest of the year?

I noticed some very top name players were not selected for membership. Why is this?

What is Mike Sigelís involvement in your decisions about the IPT?

Isnít the King of the Hill format a joke, with the hall-of-famers getting a pass and a big advantage, and big guaranteed payouts, and Mike Sigel being at King of the Hill?

What exactly are you guaranteeing for the IPT tour, and how long will it last?

Will there be seeding at events?

How many players get paid in each tournament?

What is the exact format for each event?

How can I guarantee playing in the qualifying tournaments for the North American Open and the World Open?

How do I qualify for being a player in the IPT tour for the 2007 season?

When do the players get paid?

Will IPT tournaments conflict with other tournaments?

Will the events be broadcast live?

Are you going to produce DVDs or videos of the matches at IPT events?

Why wonít you sell tickets at the door for spectators?

Are you considering a womanís tour, a senior tour, a youth tour, international tours, or a minor league tour?

Will the IPT ever hold straight pool championships, 9-Ball, one pocket, or any other game other than 8-Ball?

Will IPT players be allowed to play in other tours and tournaments?

Who are the commentators going to be for the IPT television broadcasts?

How will television exposure change the nature of pool and the players?

It seems a lot of emphasis has been put on Mike Sigel on the beginning of the tour. Why?

Does Mike Sigel have an ownership in the Tour?

You said you are looking at sponsoring other sports. Will you drop your sponsorship in the IPT?

Are you trying to get other sponsors?

Arenít you interested in being recognized as a legitimate pool tour within the pool world?

Will the TV exposure be good for the players?

What rules will you be using for your tournaments?

Are other sponsors coming to you to sponsor the tour?

Have you decided what tables, cloth, balls, chalk, rack, and bridge will be the official equipment used in the IPT tour?

I heard that you are considering opening up a series of pool halls around the country where IPT events would be held.

Will you be having an exhibit hall at your tournaments?

Why didnít you get sanctioned by any of the governing bodies of pool?

Donít you need the top pool players from all around the world playing in IPT events in order to make the IPT a success?

cueball1950
10-26-2005, 10:25 PM
Deno.....link does not work......mike

Rich R.
10-27-2005, 02:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cueball1950:</font><hr> Deno.....link does not work......mike <hr /></blockquote>Mike, try this link.
http://www.internationalpooltour.com/ipt_content/q_and_a/default.asp

killerstroke
10-27-2005, 09:45 AM
I did not get a chance to read the link, due to being at work, but I definately will. Just a note, Mr. Trudeau is involved in alot of things, some of them questioned by many. He has benn called many things, good and bad, but it does seem fishy that Mr Siegel is king of the hill and they are very good friends, mmmmm, makes me think.

TedKaufman
10-27-2005, 10:39 AM
I'll tell you all, after reading through Trudeau's answers to those questions, I believe he will succeed. GIGANTICALLY! He's going about everything the right way. He's not going to be dissuaded by any of the alphabet organizations, and I believe the players will embrace this tour universally, though a few may take longer than others. Those players who hesitate because of contractual obligations or fines and penalties from the "alphabets," I think will only have to see one iteration of their contemporaries pocketing more for one tournament than they've made in ten years before they embrace this opportunity.

Trudeau's ideas, as far as how to package and present the programming to an audience and networks are first rate. He's taking the risk out of producing it for the networks. He'll be delivering a final product, packaged and ready to air: Here it is--finished! Knowing the final costs is very appealing for the networks, I assure you. His model is a model for success, and I would be very surprised if he and the IPT are not wildly successful.

With the way he's going about it, I believe he can make professional pool enormously successful and popular. I also believe he will have a HUGE impact on the entire pool industry. Nothing in my lifetime in pool, covering 40 years, has even come close to this potential. It will make the pool popularity surges following The Hustler and The Color of Money seem like lapping waves compared to a tsunami.

Trudeau has finally brought to pool what it has always needed--big ideas, big thinking, and yes, big money.

Harold Acosta
10-27-2005, 06:40 PM
Dear Mr. Andrews:

Could Mr. Trudeau possibly address the issue of the Ban/Suspension Policy imposed by the APBU (Asian Pocket Billiards Union), and the CPB (Confederacion Panamericana de Billar in South America?

From the APBU website (News):
http://forum.baroc.org/read.php?f=17&amp;i=162&amp;t=162

[ QUOTE ]

Author: apbu
Date: 10-25-05 20:41

Important Notice from APBU - Asian Pocket Billiard Union
October 12th, 2005


Dear all in the national association in APBU,

The following was discussed in the WPA Board Meeting, which took place in Austria last month, and will become a policy in Asia:

Impose/put a ban on a player for a specific period of time:

1. The followings apply to all players in Asia.

2. Player who participates in the tournament/event that is not sanctioned by both APBU and WPA, the player will be banned by the APBU for one year.

3. In the above situation, the ban will be effective from the first day of that tournament and will be for 365 days.

4. During the ban period, the player can not play in the APBU or WPA sanctioned tournament/event.

5. During the ban period, any nomination for this banned player by the national association is not valid. If the banned player is nominated, this nation will be treated as forefeit this quota spot.

6. The banned player's name and country will be made public in the annoucements, including APBU internet info site and notices.

7. Ban by APBU will be also notified to WPA World Pool-billiard Association. WPA and its other continental federations will support and follow through the same ban notice sent from APBU.


Best regards,
Tsun-Che Chuan
President, APBU
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> This ban could possibly prevent some players from showing up at the next IPT event. </font color>

Harold Acosta - President
Puerto Rican Billiard Federation

denoandrews
10-27-2005, 09:33 PM
Mr. Acosta,

Basically, here is a Q&amp;A answer from Mr. Trudeau that sums it up why the bans are absolutely meaningless along with "official" recognition:

"There is no such thing as a governing body of pool. The last time I checked there was act of congress or law passed anywhere in the world that gave any organization or group of people the right to control the sport of pool. There is no law stated anywhere that any individual organization has the right to tell me what I can and canít do with my money or investments relating to pool. I am not a big believer in associations or organizations. I believe they are parasitical organizations that suck off the production of others. As I stated before, if there is a pool organization in the world that claims to be in operation for the betterment of the sport, the only way you can determine whether they have succeeded or not is to ask the simple question: Last year, what did the top pool player in the world earn, and what did the 30th top guy earn? If you canít have 30 players in the world that are earning over $300,000 or $400,000 a year, then you have failed miserably at creating an environment where pool players can earn a decent living. Therefore, there is no organization that qualifies to come up to me, put a gun to my head, and demand money out of my pocket. Itís insane when these groups come to me and say that they own the players. If you donít pay us, our players are not going to be allowed to play in your tournaments. When I heard this I laughed and said, ďWell, I guess your players will stay broke.Ē This is a free market system. The bottom line is simple, Iím putting together some tournaments, Iím giving away huge amounts of prize money, and any player who wants to qualify for the tournaments and play can, and if they donít want to play they donít have to play. It doesnít matter to me who wins the prize money, but I can tell you this, no mafia-style organization is going to come up to me and demand money out of my pocket because of my successful enterprise. In the next two years I am going to give away more than $20 Million dollars in prize money! I donít care which players I give the money to. If a player is stupid enough not to play in IPT events he will just stay broke. I donít know the names of the players I will be giving these millions of dollars to. The one thing I do know is if a player is not playing in IPT events that they will not receive a dime of the $20 Million dollars in prize money I will be giving away!"

I think this is a very honest and up front answer on Mr. Trudeau's part. In return, I would like you to address these points Mr. Acosta regarding the WPA model:
1. Do association reps share rooms like a majority of the players, at cheap hotels and motels like the players, who they are supposed to be representing?
2. Why don't the association reps eat at the cheapest restaurants they can find so they can save some money for prize funds?
3. Why aren't the meetings virtual (instead of everyone wasting funds flying around the world to fancy locations like Austria)and the airfare costs used for the best players, who, by the way, are supposed to be the stars of the show, not the board members?
4. Why is it that the WPA would admit in a public letter that if Mr. Trudeau was to pay the hundreds of thousands of dollars that the WPA would sing his praises, but if he wouldn't, that he would be labeled bad for the game? Doesn't that imply a very sick level of praise and acceptance for hire?
5. If the WPA has done its job in the last however many years they have been at it, wouldn't pocket billiards be a mainstream sport by now and its players famous?
6. Instead of approaching Mr. Trudeau with a threat, why didn't the WPA ask how they could best work together with the IPT so that both sets of goals could be accomplished symbiotically?

I hope that you will answer these questions with the same level of honesty Mr. Trudeau has shown in the Q&amp;A.
Q&amp;A (http://internationalpooltour.com/ipt_content/q_and_a/default.asp#a7)
Best regards,

Deno Andrews

nhp
10-28-2005, 05:50 AM
Holy crap, the WPA and Harold just got OWNED!!! This just made my day, thanks Deno!

Fran Crimi
10-28-2005, 06:55 AM
Wait a minute...this isn't anything to be cheering about. First of all, it's a bad situation all around, Second, Harold hasn't indicated that he's in favor of the ban. His association is two steps removed from the WPA and is now being affected by the ban. He's obviously concerned about his players, and rightfully so. Plus, you don't know what information the WPA has been feeding down to the associations. Obviously, it's somewhat different than the IPT's version of what happened.

Fran

pooltchr
10-28-2005, 07:51 AM
Mr Andrews,
Would you contact me via e-mail? I would like to privately discuss a business proposal related to your tour.
Thank you.
Steve Jennings
steve@s-sbilliards.com

catscradle
10-28-2005, 09:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote denoandrews:</font><hr> Mr. Acosta,

Basically, here is a Q&amp;A answer from Mr. Trudeau that sums it up why the bans are absolutely meaningless along with "official" recognition:

...
Deno Andrews <hr /></blockquote>

Deno, yes in a certain sense they are meaningless, and in any sense I think they are wrong. However, if a particular person wants to play in events sponsered by a the particular organization imposing the ban they are no longer meaningless.

Qtec
10-28-2005, 10:17 AM
[ QUOTE ]

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-natural-cures-guy,0,4053498,print.story


Agency: 'Natural Cures' Guy Selling Names




By MICHAEL GORMLEY
Associated Press Writer

October 27, 2005, 8:38 PM EDT

ALBANY, N.Y. -- A New York consumer protection agency warns the infomercial star who wrote "Natural Cures 'They' Don't Want You to Know About" has something he doesn't want his customers to know about.

The state Consumer Protection Board warned Thursday that author Kevin Trudeau is selling their name and contact information to other telemarketers and junk mailers. Some of Trudeau's customers have also complained of unexpected charges for his newsletter and discount purchase programs, said state Consumer Protection Board Executive Director Teresa Santiago <hr /></blockquote>

Could this be why no tickets are being sold on the door?

Q

SPetty
10-28-2005, 10:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Could this be why no tickets are being sold on the door?<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm, that very well could be part of the reason.

I ordered from a catalog once. I get six or seven catalogs in the mail almost every day. Well, maybe that's an exaggeration, but I do get several a day! From places I've never heard of. It's a common practice to sell your "live marks" to other marketers. I have no idea how to remove myself from these lists.

catscradle
10-28-2005, 11:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-natural-cures-guy,0,4053498,print.story


Agency: 'Natural Cures' Guy Selling Names




By MICHAEL GORMLEY
Associated Press Writer

October 27, 2005, 8:38 PM EDT

ALBANY, N.Y. -- A New York consumer protection agency warns the infomercial star who wrote "Natural Cures 'They' Don't Want You to Know About" has something he doesn't want his customers to know about.

The state Consumer Protection Board warned Thursday that author Kevin Trudeau is selling their name and contact information to other telemarketers and junk mailers. Some of Trudeau's customers have also complained of unexpected charges for his newsletter and discount purchase programs, said state Consumer Protection Board Executive Director Teresa Santiago <hr /></blockquote>

Could this be why no tickets are being sold on the door?

Q <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know what else it is, but it is further evidence that KT is a snake oil salesman of the first order. As PT Barnum said "there's a sucker born every minute" and Kevin seems to have a direct line to them.
If he's good for pool though I'll put up with it, but I sure wouldn't buy anything from him.

Harold Acosta
10-28-2005, 05:09 PM
Mr. Andrews:

My intent to have Mr. Trudeau address the ban policy is relevant to the well-being of all international players. I have grave concerns (particularly) with the South American players whom would have to decide if they attend the next IPT event, not play, and then face possible consequences. The CPB ban is taking away their opportunity to prove themselves against World-Class and US players, and is taking away any opportunity to make some money. This is where I have a huge problem and I have voiced my concern to the CPB.

What I would like to know is if Mr. Trudeau will give some consideration to the choices these players will have to make. If they make it to the IPT event, they will be banned for a whole year of CPB/WPA events. What will these players do during the entire year? They will have to sit around back home, until the next IPT event comes up in January. Then wait again until April. Some could possibly be banned from participating in qualifiers or entirely miss the next World Pool Championships in Taipei. All because they want to take a chance with the IPT. The next 8 to 9 months could wreck or break many pool careers.

Some top international players will not have a problem with their choices, but others will. Could Mr. Trudeau possibly understand their dilema's?

Mr. Trudeau has been very clear with his stance. Is he considering the possible consequences to others?....particularly since players are not millionaires?

eg8r
10-28-2005, 07:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Mr. Trudeau has been very clear with his stance. Is he considering the possible consequences to others?....particularly since players are not millionaires? <hr /></blockquote> I think he has considered it, and he has been quite frank. His stance is that the WPA and other bodies have everything to do with the fact these players are not millionaires (in so many words). I don't think this ban has anything to do with the IPT/Trudeau. What is happening is that the WPA/CPB has decided to screw their own players and hold them back from earning any "real" money.

These consequences are not Trudeau's fault, they are the fault of the governing bodies in which the players are members. Trudeau has every right to run a tour in which he is funding. If the other tours feel threatened, then it would behoove them to put together a better product for fear of losing their members. The odd thing about all this is that Trudeau is not asking any of these players to give up their memberships in these other associations. It is the other associations (WPA, CPB, etc) that are requiring this decision.

eg8r

Rich R.
10-28-2005, 07:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Harold Acosta:</font><hr> Mr. Andrews:

My intent to have Mr. Trudeau address the ban policy is relevant to the well-being of all international players. I have grave concerns (particularly) with the South American players whom would have to decide if they attend the next IPT event, not play, and then face possible consequences. The CPB ban is taking away their opportunity to prove themselves against World-Class and US players, and is taking away any opportunity to make some money. This is where I have a huge problem and I have voiced my concern to the CPB.

What I would like to know is if Mr. Trudeau will give some consideration to the choices these players will have to make. If they make it to the IPT event, they will be banned for a whole year of CPB/WPA events. What will these players do during the entire year? They will have to sit around back home, until the next IPT event comes up in January. Then wait again until April. Some could possibly be banned from participating in qualifiers or entirely miss the next World Pool Championships in Taipei. All because they want to take a chance with the IPT. The next 8 to 9 months could wreck or break many pool careers.

Some top international players will not have a problem with their choices, but others will. Could Mr. Trudeau possibly understand their dilema's?

Mr. Trudeau has been very clear with his stance. Is he considering the possible consequences to others?....particularly since players are not millionaires?
<hr /></blockquote>Harold, I don't mean to butt in here, but it seems to me that the players don't have a problem with KT. he is doing his best to make sure that none of the IPT tournaments conflict with any other major events, around the world. The players could easily play in both the IPT and CPB/WPA events.

The problem is with the CPB/WPA. They are the ones imposing the ban. They are the ones attempting to stop the players from making some money. KT and the IPT have not imposed any type of ban and, in fact, they seem to be encouraging players to play in other events.

Harold, I know you have the best interests of your players at heart, however, I don't believe that the leaders of the CPB/WPA have your dedication. They seem to be concerned with their own best interests. JMHO.

Qtec
10-28-2005, 10:44 PM
Rich, are you aware that the the 107 players who are not playing in the invitational in Nov are obliged to attend the event [ at their own cost], or lose their spot? ie, attend a tourny they are not even playing in .
This sounds contrdictory to me.

Q

denoandrews
10-28-2005, 11:28 PM
Mr. Acosta,

I fear that my repsonse is not going to come across the way I see it in my mind...so please stick with me and think about some simple points with me.

I totally respect your concerns for the players. I have been concerned for the players since I started playing competitive 3-cushion billiards in 1989. I was lucky enough to represent the US in the 1997 Pan American 3-cushion championship. Most of my good personal friends are carom players and pool players from around the world. While many will share the same level of concern for these players as I do, I promise you that nobody is 'more' concerned than I.

If you look at every successful sport in the world, the players are empowered. They are awarded the kind of compensation for their work that keeps them loyal to an organization be it an association or a private venture. They are made famous through media strategies and as a result, they receive commercial sponsorship opportunities that reward them with financial compensation. The WPA has been around nearly 20 years now and neither of these important variables have happened.

Part of the problem why the WPA, et. al. continue to be able to strong arm the players is because they don't make enough money to protest the actions of the association. Therefore, they have no choice but to comply with the silliness and politics of the association model. As a result, the WPA and their structure can host tournaments, have huge budgets on production costs and food &amp; beverage, film matches, put stuff on TV, and sadly...they pay the players the least they can possibly and there is nothing the players can do about it. The FACT of the matter is that the camera operators at these events are likely netting FAR MORE money than most, if not all, of the top players in the world when all is said and done. Sadly, the players have no recourse and they have no options, and that is how the association model likes it because it perpetuates their power in the industry.

Then one day someone like Kevin comes along and says hey, I want the best players to make tons of money and become celebrities. Conventional wisdom would suggest that an organization that was really around to support the players would have the attitude of hey...this is really great for our players that someone finally has the money to put up so that the best can finally be rewarded. Instead, what happens? The WPA tries to shake him down for a six figure hand-out. They threaten him by telling him that the players won't be able to play because of sanctions and he says he doesn't care. After that, they write a silly letter explaining how someone pouring $20,000,000 in prize money FOR THE PLAYERS, and that again in production and promotion costs, is somehow bad for the game because he refused to pay a fee. If this doesn't illustrate how backwards the thinking is in this association model, I don't know what will. Furthermore, I think it shows a very sick level of praise for hire on the WPAs part.

Specifically addressing your point about players having to make a choice, I would ask you to ask the question of the WPA, not of Kevin Trudeau. Kevin has encouraged players to play everywhere, any time, on any tour, in any country. Unlike the WPA, he wants the players to be famous and household names, and receive lucrative sponsorship deals. Please ask the WPA why they have put the players in a position where they have to choose...not the IPT. I think this is a perfectly valid question and it should be asked of the people who are actually responsible for making the players choose. And that would be the WPA, not us.

If the WPA were really in it for the players, they would encourage them to go fight for the big money and get their share of $20,000,000. However, it is possible and likely that so many of these players are going to make the kind of money that will change their lives forever. When that happens, the players will be less likely to participate in the silly politics or be strong armed because they will be empowered with financial freedom thus giving them (finally) the power they so justly deserve.

As far as my serious questions to you regarding the association model- I feel as though Kevin's answers and my point of view are to the point and cogent. I hope that you will address my questions to you with the same level of thoughtfulness and honesty as I have done for you.

Kindest regards,

Deno Andrews

wolfdancer
10-29-2005, 12:39 AM
Well, here's my .02
Maybe the WPA, and all the other "concerned" orgs. should be paying a stipend to KT for promoting their sport, in a way, that they could only dream of.
Rather then fight a new idea/promotion, they should at least not interfere, and realise that they also can grow and profit, along with the IPT, if the tour is successful.
Just one suggestion for Mr. T....hire some announcers, that know how to promote/personalise the players, and not just the game.

Rich R.
10-29-2005, 05:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Rich, are you aware that the the 107 players who are not playing in the invitational in Nov are obliged to attend the event [ at their own cost], or lose their spot? ie, attend a tourny they are not even playing in .
This sounds contrdictory to me.

Q<hr /></blockquote>
Q, I am aware of this requirement and I have to say, I don't understand it. I only have a guess, for the reason. KT has mentioned a number of times that, in the beginning, the IPT wants to create a lot of media buzz to create a lot of interest. With the Orlando event being the first IPT tournament, I am guessing that KT wants as many of the players as possible in attendance, to be available to talk to the media and create a stir.

If I were one of the 107 players involved, I would certainly try to find a way to get my butt to Orlando. The potential payoff, in future events, is just too good to pass up. I know this is a gamble, but that is nothing new to pool players.

Harold Acosta
10-29-2005, 01:25 PM
eg8r:

The fact remains that there is a ban. It doesnt matter who's fault it is. The big question is, now that there is a problem, how will Trudeau work with this? If he does not address it, the problem will not go away by itself.

The top players will not have a problem, the lesser talented players will. This has to be addressed by everyone; the WPA, players, player associations and the IPT.

The least Trudeau could do is provide legal advice to the players whom have been selected by the IPT or find a way to work around the problem and not get the players banned. He could possible do some talking with the WPA.

Trudeau should not ignore the fact of the ban and should "seriously" address it; regardless of what he thinks. We should not get some "mumbo jumbo" about not recognizing governing bodies when in fact they do exist; as in all other mainstream sports.

Harold Acosta
10-29-2005, 01:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Holy crap, the WPA and Harold just got OWNED!!! This just made my day, thanks Deno! <hr /></blockquote>

Great contribution to my question nhp. I hope you keep getting your kicks out of this. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

pooltchr
10-29-2005, 05:51 PM
Harold,
I really don't see how it's Kevin's problem to address.
He is holding tournaments
He is putting up the money
He is not restricting players from playing elsewhere.
He did not impose any bans on anyone.
It seems he just decided to do something on his own. It's something the players are interested in, but the organizations that want to control the players don't like it. I think the players need to go to those organizations and let them know that they are not slaves. Until an organization can pay a player a decent salary, I don't see how they can stop them from playing in KT's events. It would appear that the organizations are afraid of this new competition. Personally, I hope they get on board with the IPT regardless of the consequences. How stupid would these groups look if they held their tournaments, and nobody signed up to play?????????

The players actually are the ones holding the cards, not the promoters. Without the players...there are no tournaments. Threatening to ban the players is a sign of despiration. THEY CAN'T BAN ALL OF THEM!!!!

Steve

onepocketchump
10-29-2005, 09:24 PM
Harold, the players need to band together and tell the organizations that they don't want the conflict. After all, the WPA and it's member organizations are made up od ELECTED officials. Those in office are supposed to do the bidding of the electorate and NOT the other way around. It seems as though this particular issues is one that should be decided by a vote of the players and not by decree.

We are talking about tournaments here. Let the players make up their own national championships, neither the APBU nor the WPA is adding any money to these tournaments anyway.

Promoters all over the world are still going to hold their own tournaments and players will attend depsite any bans. In the end, the organizations will destroy themselves if they try and enforce this.

John

onepocketchump
10-29-2005, 09:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Rich, are you aware that the the 107 players who are not playing in the invitational in Nov are obliged to attend the event [ at their own cost], or lose their spot? ie, attend a tourny they are not even playing in .
This sounds contrdictory to me.

Q

<hr /></blockquote>


I guess it's one more way to show commitment and desire. These players are not employees, they are participants in a tour and those are the tour's rules.

Do the math - 7 events with say, $3000 in expenses per event is $21,000 in expenses for the IPT's inaugaural season. The 150 players will be splitting 9 million for an average of $61,000 each. Now, considering that half the field comes up empty each tournament, we have to assume that the mean income for the bottom half of the ranking list will be signifigantly lower than the top half. I assume that anyone is free to drop out of the tour if they can't afford to play, or aren't good enough to make expenses. This is GOOD because it means that the next person in line gets a chance, and the cycle continues until the very best players are all on tour and the mean income for all of them will increase because it will get tougher and tougher to make the top half of the field in each tournament.

John

Fran Crimi
10-30-2005, 07:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote onepocketchump:</font><hr> Harold, the players need to band together and tell the organizations that they don't want the conflict. After all, the WPA and it's member organizations are made up od ELECTED officials. Those in office are supposed to do the bidding of the electorate and NOT the other way around. It seems as though this particular issues is one that should be decided by a vote of the players and not by decree.

<hr /></blockquote>

Elections? What elections? When are they held? How often? No, as far as I know there are no elections. There should be, though, shouldn't there?

Fran

onepocketchump
10-30-2005, 09:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote onepocketchump:</font><hr> Harold, the players need to band together and tell the organizations that they don't want the conflict. After all, the WPA and it's member organizations are made up od ELECTED officials. Those in office are supposed to do the bidding of the electorate and NOT the other way around. It seems as though this particular issues is one that should be decided by a vote of the players and not by decree.

<hr /></blockquote>

Elections? What elections? When are they held? How often? No, as far as I know there are no elections. There should be, though, shouldn't there?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Exactly. If you read the WPA website you will see that the original mandate of the WPA was to create a world championships and to work towards Olympic inclusion. The WPA is made up of representatives from each national federation, who should be selected from the elected officials from each organization. In Germany, each region would send one person to the national organization, the DBU (Deutsche Billard Union) in order to select a representative for the EPBF (European Pocket Billiard Federation) who then assigned a representative for the WPA.

The problem is that America has never signed on to this model. The United States does not have any coherency in it's billiard sports. The players in the United States have nearly zero representation in the organizations that decide the formats played under. This fragmentation among the nation with the largest mass of organized players is exactly WHY Kevin does not need to recognize the BCA or the WPA, the APA or any other so-called governing body.

I still fail to see where the WPA sees that it has any right to even ask for a sactioning fee from any tournaments period. If anything the WPA should get it's funding from the continental federations who in turn should get their funding from the national organization who should get their funding from sanctioning fees and league dues from the tournaments and players under their jurisdiction.

If the players in the APBU and the CBE stand for a ban being imposed on them that seeks to prevent them from attempting to play against the best in the world then it's their own fault if they allow it.

The IPT will have fifty qualifiers in 2006. None of these tournaments will seek to be sanctioned by any other organization. Just like the Viking Tour tournaments don't have sanctioning, the Fury Tour, the Joss Tour, the Glass City Open, The Sands Regency, and so on. Players from all over the world are welcome to play in ANY tournament in the United States. But ONLY Europeans are allowed on the EUROTOUR, only Asians are allowed on the San Miguel Tour. It's funny how the WPA "allows" and I say this LOOSELY, some tours to be protectionist while demanding money from those that are truly global.

Lastly, looking at the WPA organizational chart, I find it intersting that Matchroom is a "special member". Quite cozy I would say. Things that make you go hmmm.....

John

Fran Crimi
10-30-2005, 05:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that America has never signed on to this model. The United States does not have any coherency in it's billiard sports. The players in the United States have nearly zero representation in the organizations that decide the formats played under. <hr /></blockquote>

Actually, this isn't such a bad thing. We do have someone who represents us in the WPA, but that is only one vote in the world body. I'm sure there is communication between that representative and our pro player associations...at least there was when I was on the WPBA Board of Directors. I just don't remember there being any election process. The big difference between the U.S. and other countries is that the U.S. does not relinquish total power to it's WPA representative. The WPBA and the UPA do not recognize any other body in this country as the governing body of pro pool, other than themselves, nor do they claim to be governing bodies of amateur players. We have several amateur player organizations and they are allowed to operate freely, without restriction which is why tours like the Joss tour and the Tri-State tour can exist without being strong-armed to pay sanction fees.

Our system works...it's on other continents where their WPA representatives have become dictators.

Fran

onepocketchump
10-31-2005, 04:17 AM
I have said many times over that one dollar a week dues from league players the world over would be enough to properly fund a strong professional organization.

In 100 years no one has been able to get that $1 a week. Had they done that then any promoters would have to follow the rules of the pro organization and amateurs would as well. The issue, now and always will be that everyone has a different idea of what pool should be. Can any of you name another sport/pastime that has so many variants played professionally on the same equipment?

It seems as though every tournament has some rules change that the promoter feels is "better" for the game. Every league has different rules.

So what will ever change? Nothing. Kevin will do his tour and if it becomes wildly successful there will still be plenty of nine ball tournaments, one pocket events, ten ball tournaments, seven ball, trick shot events, made up BS events, and a plethora of rules no one knows much less agrees on.

John

onepocketchump
10-31-2005, 04:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
The problem is that America has never signed on to this model. The United States does not have any coherency in it's billiard sports. The players in the United States have nearly zero representation in the organizations that decide the formats played under. <hr /></blockquote>

Actually, this isn't such a bad thing. We do have someone who represents us in the WPA, but that is only one vote in the world body. I'm sure there is communication between that representative and our pro player associations...at least there was when I was on the WPBA Board of Directors. I just don't remember there being any election process. The big difference between the U.S. and other countries is that the U.S. does not relinquish total power to it's WPA representative. The WPBA and the UPA do not recognize any other body in this country as the governing body of pro pool, other than themselves, nor do they claim to be governing bodies of amateur players. We have several amateur player organizations and they are allowed to operate freely, without restriction which is why tours like the Joss tour and the Tri-State tour can exist without being strong-armed to pay sanction fees.

Our system works...it's on other continents where their WPA representatives have become dictators.

Fran

<hr /></blockquote>

No Fran,

Our "system" does not work. There is no system to work. The BCA calls itself the governing body of pool, the APA calls itelf the governing body of amateur pool, the UPA calls itself the governing body of professional pool. I am sure the WPBA probably regards itself as the governing body of women's professional pool. I never hear a correction when so and so is referred to as the world number one when talking about her WPBA ranking.

The BCA sits in it's ivory tower making plans about how they can rent more booth space to non-industry companies and how they can sucker mom-and-pop start ups into buying booth space and accompanying $500 worthless memberships while pandering to the members who buy the most real estate instead of truly doing something to make the sport better.

The APA lives in it's isolationist world somehow believing it's own BS about being representative of amateur players while encouraging their players to play the game in a way that is ultimately detrimental to the growth of pool as a serious sport. I would guess that 90% of APA members couldn't name the top five men and women pro players or any five of either gender. The VNEA could care less about anything but making sure that it's vendors are happy. The BCA League under Mark Griffin is the only one I see that is trying to reach out and grow pool with an avenue for league players to move into the pros under the same ruleset. The BCA was either incapable or unwilling when they had the league.

As a "member" of all three leagues I was never once asked to vote on sending a local rep to any regional meeting which would then select a rep for the national organization to carry my concerns as a player. The leagues and organizations here in the USA are just as dictatorial, if not more so than in other countries.

I have a couple stories about how crappy it can be to work with power mad people in two very prominent organizations in this country. Neither of these people, nor the organizations behind them care one bit about the plight of the player as long as they can exercise their domination over them. But, the sad part is that although they like to wield their power punishingly, they and their organizations are so disorganized that they just come off as laughable in the end. Names withheld to protect my friends who hve to live with these people.

Please tell me why, if the WPBA is so successful, that they continue to ply races to nine in the tournament and races to seven in the finals? And even then the sets are cut up viciously. A "successful" sport doesn't need to pay the networks for production, the networks bid on the rights and pay handsomely for it.

So, no disrepect to you and your extensive experience in this sport, but it does not work here in the sense that there is any cohesiveness. Lot's of pool is played for sure, only everyone is doing it differently.

John

wolfdancer
10-31-2005, 07:19 AM
I'm thinking we need the HUAC to look into this WPA thing....it's obviously another commie plot....

Fran Crimi
10-31-2005, 07:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote onepocketchump:</font><hr>
No Fran,

Our "system" does not work. There is no system to work. The BCA calls itself the governing body of pool, the APA calls itelf the governing body of amateur pool, the UPA calls itself the governing body of professional pool. I am sure the WPBA probably regards itself as the governing body of women's professional pool. I never hear a correction when so and so is referred to as the world number one when talking about her WPBA ranking.

The BCA sits in it's ivory tower making plans about how they can rent more booth space to non-industry companies and how they can sucker mom-and-pop start ups into buying booth space and accompanying $500 worthless memberships while pandering to the members who buy the most real estate instead of truly doing something to make the sport better.

<font color="blue">Back when the world body was first formed (around 1991?) in order to meet the requirements to gain recognition by the IOC as an Olympic sport, the various continents were asked to contribute a one-time fee to get the organization started. I belive the fee was $10,000. Neither the men nor womens pro organizations had that kind of money at that time, but the BCA did, and we came to an agreement to allow them to represent us since they were willing to pay the fee. Also, over the years, as players were invited to compete in the World Championships, the BCA gave each player a stipend to cover their travel expenses. They consistently laid out money on our players behalf year after year. We accepted them as our "Representative", not our "Governing Body" and were grateful for it, as well. We had our own internal representative monitoring the World Body activities who regularly consulted with our BCA reps. There was a cohesive and business-friendly understanding.

I don't know at what point the BCA decided to consider themselves the governing body of pool, but as far as we're concerned they're not. They do, however, produce a rule book that has been one of the most important books in our sport's history, and still is.

It is my understanding that the BCA is moving away from the whole "Governing Body" thing and back to what they were originally formed to do, which is act as a trade organization. Your gripes as to how they conduct themselves as a trade organization really don't have anything to do with the issues of players in this country. </font color>


The APA lives in it's isolationist world somehow believing it's own BS about being representative of amateur players while encouraging their players to play the game in a way that is ultimately detrimental to the growth of pool as a serious sport. I would guess that 90% of APA members couldn't name the top five men and women pro players or any five of either gender. The VNEA could care less about anything but making sure that it's vendors are happy. The BCA League under Mark Griffin is the only one I see that is trying to reach out and grow pool with an avenue for league players to move into the pros under the same ruleset. The BCA was either incapable or unwilling when they had the league.

<font color="blue"> All these organizations have a legal right to exist on their own. You can't strong-arm them into merging into one, and you can't force them to be members of a new, representative organization that governs them. It's not right and it's not fair. Isn't what happened in Asia and South America enough proof? </font color>

As a "member" of all three leagues I was never once asked to vote on sending a local rep to any regional meeting which would then select a rep for the national organization to carry my concerns as a player. The leagues and organizations here in the USA are just as dictatorial, if not more so than in other countries.

I have a couple stories about how crappy it can be to work with power mad people in two very prominent organizations in this country. Neither of these people, nor the organizations behind them care one bit about the plight of the player as long as they can exercise their domination over them. But, the sad part is that although they like to wield their power punishingly, they and their organizations are so disorganized that they just come off as laughable in the end. Names withheld to protect my friends who hve to live with these people.

<font color="blue"> The solution for you then, is to start your own, and set it up the way you want it to be set up. If your system works, players will come. Or you can join up with one that you feel is worth while. </font color>


Please tell me why, if the WPBA is so successful, that they continue to ply races to nine in the tournament and races to seven in the finals? And even then the sets are cut up viciously. A "successful" sport doesn't need to pay the networks for production, the networks bid on the rights and pay handsomely for it.

<font color="blue"> You're being misled if you've been told that if we had one cohesive organization representing pool in this country, that the networks would then pay for TV time. It doesn't work that way.

There are two ways in which networks will pay for TV time. One is if the promoter has already been a benefit to the network in other ways...referring back to the days where Bill Cayton, who produced early TV matches, had an established mega-money-making relationship with ESPN due to his Big Fights Productions. When Cayton asked to be paid for the TV pool events, ESPN paid only because of that relationship, and for no other reason.

The second way to get TV to pay is if they can sell commercial time for the show at a formidible profit. That can not be done as of yet. ESPN is not in business to lose money.

As for races to 7, I'm hoping we're finally approaching the point where we can start to pay for longer races. As long as that film crew is standing there...whether they're filming or not, it costs money. </font color>

So, no disrepect to you and your extensive experience in this sport, but it does not work here in the sense that there is any cohesiveness. Lot's of pool is played for sure, only everyone is doing it differently.

John <hr /></blockquote>

eg8r
10-31-2005, 08:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The fact remains that there is a ban. It doesnt matter who's fault it is. The big question is, now that there is a problem, how will Trudeau work with this? If he does not address it, the problem will not go away by itself.
<hr /></blockquote> This is where we disagree. I think it is most important to know who has the blame. This is the person or group that is holding back the players from bettering themselves. Please explain to me why it matters if Kevin addresses this ban, it has no effect on him or his tournament. The person/group that needs to address the ban is the WPA, CPB, or whatever body decides this is a good deal. They need to address why they feel it is right and just to withhold a players ability to better themselves.

[ QUOTE ]
This has to be addressed by everyone; the WPA, players, player associations and the IPT.
<hr /></blockquote> We disagree here also. I don't think anyone but the players needs to address this. It will be the lesser skilled players that will need to step up and get better or risk not making any money. It is clear the current governing bodies don't care about them, so they need to get out of those associations and work their tails off to make sure they perform at a higher level if they want to get paid.

[ QUOTE ]
The least Trudeau could do is provide legal advice <hr /></blockquote> This is the worst thing the players could use. Trudeau is not a lawyer and should not be offering any legal advice. He has his own legal troubles to deal with.

[ QUOTE ]
Trudeau should not ignore the fact of the ban and should "seriously" address it; regardless of what he thinks. We should not get some "mumbo jumbo" about not recognizing governing bodies when in fact they do exist; as in all other mainstream sports. <hr /></blockquote> Why should he not ignore it, the ban does not affect him. The players should stand up and speak for themselves. This ban is not Kevin Trudeaus fault, it is the selfishness of the associations who are implementing the ban. I reckon you will not get any sympathy from Trudeau.

eg8r

Fran Crimi
10-31-2005, 10:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote onepocketchump:</font><hr> I have said many times over that one dollar a week dues from league players the world over would be enough to properly fund a strong professional organization.


John <hr /></blockquote>

Do you mean like a pool tax? You might want to read "1776" by David McCullough before you start incorporating that idea. J/K, John, but I really doubt that idea would work. There may be some antitrust issues involved there. You may have our Constitution to blame for putting a stopper in that one.

Fran

Rich R.
10-31-2005, 10:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote onepocketchump:</font><hr> I have said many times over that one dollar a week dues from league players the world over would be enough to properly fund a strong professional organization.


John <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Do you mean like a pool tax? You might want to read "1776" by David McCullough before you start incorporating that idea. J/K, John, but I really doubt that idea would work. There may be some antitrust issues involved there. You may have our Constitution to blame for putting a stopper in that one.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
I definitely agree with Fran on this point. In addition to that, how could you ever get all of the pool leagues, worldwide, to agree on how the money would be spent. Just in this country, you have at least four major pool leagues, let alone any smaller leagues, that can't even agree on a common set of rules. They would never agree on how to spend millions of dollars. Then you add in the pool leagues from the rest of the world and there would never obtain any agreement. Each league would have its own agenda.

I also have to ask, why would it be the job of the amateur players to support the pro players? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Obviously, some of us do support pro players by paying for tickets for tournaments, but there are many league players who have no desire to see pro tournaments and, I'm sure, they wouldn't want to pay anything to support a pro tour.

Qtec
10-31-2005, 11:17 AM
eg8r,the only problem I see with the IPT not working with the WPA is that it will put in jeopardy other tournaments around the world. I do have my doubts about KT but I,m willing to give him a chance.
I cant speak for the US but over here in Europe, pool is on the up.
I'll give you an example.
In Feb next year is the Rotterdam Open.
The tourny has been going for a few years now and has become a popular tourny for the Euro profs. I think last year first prize was 15,000 and the top pros in Europe were present, eg Neils, Ortman, Engert , Petroni etc. There are usually 6 qualifying nights- at least 50 players each night playing for spots in the main tourny.
Yesterday there was a tourny in the same club. First prize $1,200 , 16 wildcards for the R.Open and 101 players turned up from at least 4 different countries. The entrance was 25 euros and a warm dinner was included[ Chinese-very tasty]
I was talking to a German guy and I commented that he had come a long way to play and I asked him why. [ the last 16 was $60] The guy's answer surprised me.
He said he had come just to have the chance to play Neils F.[ and grind him into the dirt /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif! some chance /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif]
The owner [ all owners who sponser tournys] take a risk by garanteeing [sp?] the prize money no matter what and now after a few years we have a great tournament where people come from all over Europe just to play the pros and take a scalp. Its a great event.
My point is, the pros play for the money but tomorrows pro players play for scalps, for the glory. By not working with the WPA the whole pool world has to adjust to suit KT, when with a little co-operation a comprimise could be reached and the IPT could truly claim to be doing something for pool- tommorows players, just the 150.
Even you can see how important it is to co-ordinate ALL tournaments so that the sponsers, the club owners and the players have the chance to play all the main tournaments, for the benefit of all.
If he did, I,m sure it would settle everything.

Qtec........missed the money by one game /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif, more about that later /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


http://www.thurstonrotterdam.nl/MainFrame/Fotos/StartPage/IMG_3094.jpg

http://www.thurstonrotterdam.nl/MainFrame/Fotos/StartPage/IMG_3090.jpg

Rich R.
10-31-2005, 11:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Even you can see how important it is to co-ordinate ALL tournaments so that the sponsers, the club owners and the players have the chance to play all the main tournaments, for the benefit of all.<hr /></blockquote>
Even at this time, it is impossible to coordinate "ALL" tournaments, worldwide. If pool continues to grow, it will become more and more difficult. All players will have to pick and choose what tournaments they want to compete in. All players will not be able to play in all tournaments.

KT, as well as all other promoters can only offer thier tournaments and hope that a number of the best players can attend. The only problem lies with the organizations who may want to ban players for attending certain tournaments. That puts needless pressure on the players and it is counterproductive to the growth of pool.

onepocketchump
11-02-2005, 07:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote onepocketchump:</font><hr> I have said many times over that one dollar a week dues from league players the world over would be enough to properly fund a strong professional organization.


John <hr /></blockquote>

Do you mean like a pool tax? You might want to read "1776" by David McCullough before you start incorporating that idea. J/K, John, but I really doubt that idea would work. There may be some antitrust issues involved there. You may have our Constitution to blame for putting a stopper in that one.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>


:-) No, I didn't mean a pool tax. I know very well that this is a pipe dream and that there is no way presently that the existing pool organizations would come together to support a common goal. But, if it could be done then we would have a real true sport with clout.

As it stands we have a game we love that is sometimes played with the intensity of a sport but is viewed forever as a hustler's game.

That will never change and the image of the game will forever be sculpted by whomever has the money to force feed pool to the mass audience.

As far as your other points above go; I won't refute the ones I disagree with because the window is too small to be comfortable writing.

I only want to say that it is very trite of you to tell me to start my own venture if I disagree with the ones in existence. You can bet your ass that if I had the money I would do just that and some very well known people would be out on their ass. You know that there are serious flaws with the BCA and the WPBA and it is a cop out to tell me to start my own organizations just to divert the conversation.

John

Fran Crimi
11-02-2005, 08:05 AM
editing...

Fran Crimi
11-02-2005, 08:46 AM
Believe, me...I'm not trying to be trite. You can't just tell everyone in control of various associations that what they're doing is wrong and that they should just go ahead and make changes. You have to map out a distinct plan that makes sense. You can't just say let's collect a dollar from every player (without violating antitrust laws) without explaing how you propose to do that. It's important to think your suggestions through in a procedural mannor because that's when the potential flaws in your plan may come to light. I seriously doubt that you can charge amateurs "dues" to support a pro organization that has no benefit to them. Only the government can do that and many argue that the government is acting unconstitutionally in doing that. I'm sure you'll run into serious problems trying to get it done on a lower level. If you think it through and do the legal research you may find that your suggestion won't work.

You can't expect the BCA to suddenly change their direction and position just because you feel you're justified in pointing out the error of their ways. How would you see them change? What would be the benefits and pitfalls of the change? If you want to see the entire setup of pool in this country restructured, then what's your plan? How would you incorporate the change step by step? It's during these important steps of thinking things through that you may come across why this or that won't work.

If after you've thought through your ideas and came to a viable plan for change, and the organizations don't agree, then the only solution left is to start your own.

I think that in your case, that's what it would come down to because you'll never get all the organizations to see things your way. That's why I suggested that the only solution is to start your own.

That's one of the things that's great about this country. You CAN start your own, and if it's better, people will stand up and take notice.


Fran

Pelican
11-05-2005, 04:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> You CAN start your own, and if it's better, people will stand up and take notice.
Fran <hr /></blockquote>

And that be what Trudeau is done done. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

HarryDC
11-05-2005, 06:56 PM
Hello,

The way the good old boy system works is IOC, WPA, APBU, EPBU, BCA ECT! ECT! I used to think pool needed to be an Olympic Sport. I don't think that way any longer. The WPA tried to extort $150,000 from Kevin right out of the starting blocks.

I believe in America first so I don't care if any of the worlds players show up it will mean that much more money for the American players and the American players with Green Cards. HarryDC ("Gremlin")me, is very pleased as Kevin
has picked several of the players I support and love to watch. Never mind the horse is blind Kevin just keep loading the wagon. Best wishes!

eg8r
11-07-2005, 07:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Even you can see how important it is to co-ordinate ALL tournaments so that the sponsers, the club owners and the players have the chance to play all the main tournaments, for the benefit of all.
<hr /></blockquote> I do agree it could be a good thing for all, but the WPA is now proving they are not the right group to be in charge. They are not interested in the players, they are interested in fattening their wallets. They are worried that the IPT is a better product than what they are offering and because the IPT chooses not to follow the WPA guidelines (specifically by not buying their way in), the WPA is going to limit their players from bettering themselves.

If one good thing comes out of all of this (even if Kevin jumps ship and runs to his next health scam), Kevin has shown the true character of the WPA, and no one is happy with what they are seeing.

eg8r

supergreenman
11-07-2005, 10:39 AM
I think eg8r has really hit it on the head when it comes to what's really important. Any association, organization or union that isn't in it for the people they are supposed to be representing is no better than a pimp turning pool players into thier um can I say whores here? Oh well I just did.

pro9dg
11-20-2005, 04:15 AM
Just returned from the UAE and the WPA 8 Ball World Championships and am catching up on the forums.
WPA bans players! Not true, according to their President Ian Anderson. The APBU and the CPB have done so but the other continental federation members have wisely avoided that course. The APBU have maybe a more legitimate case as they do invest heavily into the game at all levels. Chia Ching Wu's World 9 Ball Championship performance and now his triumph in the 8 Ball Championship were handsomely rewarded by his government. So the scene in that part of the world is more financially secure and the players do not need the IPT money. The Central American players do not have this luxury so their bans seem unfair.
Although I work with the WPA, I do not endorse their policies 'carte blanche' as I feel that they have under achieved in their role. I feel that the rise of the IPT should be regarded as a positive factor. The profile of the game will be enhanced with players being recognised by the general public. The big purses will become the norm in the eyes of corporate sponsors and the WPA could (and should) take advantage of this. The IPT set the benchmark, now we must all work harder to compete.

chicken_blood
11-29-2005, 04:04 PM
I am reminded of a scene from the movie "Sophie's Choice". Meryl Streep is forced to choose between her two children. A Nazi officer tells her one can go with her from the death camp but the other must stay and probably die. Later she realizes that it was the Nazi officer who forced the issue, she had no choice in the matter. These players have the choice to tell you to go jump off a cliff or not. They are forced to make this decision not because of KT, he has not banned anyone from anything. You keep saying regardless there is a ban and KT must deal with it. KT does not have to deal with anything. Make no mistake you are the one pushing the issue.