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06-25-2002, 11:52 AM
Ok, I realize that bar rules change from bar to bar, person to person, and often change while you are winning the game or not.. however,

Last night I ran out on a lady, but had to hit the 8-ball off of one of her balls to win, and she says "you can't do that!"

Now, officially, are there ANY rules that say you can't hit the 8-ball off of another ball and into a called pocket to win? I called the hit, called the pocket and it went strait in (didn't even hit a rail!haha)

Just wondering.. sometimes even in the "vegas rules" tournaments I wonder about this practice of hitting the "neutral" 8-ball off of another ball.. I know it's legal in most tournaments, but is it ILLEGAL anywhere where people know how to play the game of pool??

just wondering.. opinions, comments, and even perhaps an offical ruling would be most welcomed. Thank you.

Scott Lee
06-25-2002, 12:12 PM
Kid...Strictly speaking, bar rules are exactly that! Whatever the "house" or the two players involved deem to be the applicable rules. However, regarding your incident, I find it VERY common among people who have no clue about
"real" rules to frequently claim that you have to call every little kiss and bank. I love to play these people, and show them how useless it is to play this way...by asking them pointedly, when they are shooting, odd questions like, "are you going to hit this rail, or that rail"...and then controlling the CB so that are left with NO shots at all! Usually when people see that you control the CB so much better than them, the see the folly in calling everything. One other suggestion...carry a BCA rule book with you. That has settled many an argument, when someone sees it in print! LOL Best answer to your question is to make sure exactly WHAT rules you are playing by before the game starts. Good luck!

Scott Lee

Cueless Joey
06-25-2002, 12:34 PM
Playing in bars is a nice source of aggravation.
75% of the people have no clue, like Scott said, about the rules. The other 25% have some clue. And, I'm being generous. I had an argument over this same crap one time. I asked the guy what rules he's playing by? APA, BCA, PBT blah blah blah. He had no clue. Then I started naming the world 8 ball champions since 95. What's even worse is when you play safe on them. That hated racially deragatory term, which I have no clue where it came from, comes up. Don't we all love that "in the kitchen rule"? Shooter scratches on his last ball and since the 8 ball is in the kitchen, we have to kick it in? This is where a good 3 rail lag comes up. LOL

Wally_in_Cincy
06-25-2002, 12:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Seattle--Kid:</font><hr>
Last night I ran out on a lady, but had to hit the 8-ball off of one of her balls to win, and she says "you can't do that!"

Now, officially, are there ANY rules that say you can't hit the 8-ball off of another ball and into a called pocket to win?

is it ILLEGAL anywhere where people know how to play the game of pool?? <hr></blockquote>


No to both questions.

I've encountered that rule in a few bars. After the first time it happened I started asking my opponent before I would take that shot.
If you called the carom and she didn't say anything it should be a win for you.

The fact that this doesn't come up often is because most bar bangers aren't good enough to execute a carom shot /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif.

9 Ball Girl
06-25-2002, 01:39 PM
I think that depends on the 2 that are playing and the house rules. I've played a couple of times in bars and have come across these "rules". I'll usually ask the person I'm playing what rules they would like to play with. I leave it up to them. I played this guy once who wanted to play by APA rules--I don't know if you're allowed to play in a bar using rules other than the house rules, but the locals were getting pi$$ed off at the "ball in hand" rule.

Wally_in_Cincy
06-25-2002, 01:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> I think that depends on the 2 that are playing and the house rules. I've played a couple of times in bars and have come across these "rules". I'll usually ask the person I'm playing what rules they would like to play with. I leave it up to them. I played this guy once who wanted to play by APA rules--I don't know if you're allowed to play in a bar using rules other than the house rules, but the locals were getting pi$$ed off at the "ball in hand" rule. <hr></blockquote>

If they had never heard of BIH you were lucky to make it out of there alive./ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

9 Ball Girl
06-25-2002, 02:12 PM
You could say that again! I think they were mostly impressed at the "package"! /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

heater451
06-25-2002, 04:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> I think that depends on the 2 that are playing and the house rules. I've played a couple of times in bars and have come across these "rules". I'll usually ask the person I'm playing what rules they would like to play with. I leave it up to them. <hr></blockquote>
If I'm at a bar, I usually ask as well--If I am the 'incoming player', want to rule out any oddities, like when the opponent decides that it's bank-8, when you're about to win. If I hold the table, I ask to make sure my opponent knows what's going on (although, if they are unfamiliar w/ "league rules" (BCA), then I ususally play what they're used to. I will play any rules, as long as I know what they are--before the break is preferred.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> I played this guy once who wanted to play by APA rules--I don't know if you're allowed to play in a bar using rules other than the house rules, but the locals were getting pi$$ed off at the "ball in hand" rule. <hr></blockquote>
I know some places may enforce true "house rules", but I usually go by what I term "table call". I don't think the rules should be up to anyone, besides the two (or 4) at the table (excepting tourneys, of course). Also, I don't believe in forcing a rule set, although in cases of disagreement, I think the table-holder has the last say--beat him (or her) by 'their' rules, and they can't say anything. . . .

06-25-2002, 04:59 PM
I have never officially heard any rules that make this shot illegal. It seems logical that this shot is legal since you are hitting the eight ball first. Caroming off the 2 is essentially like banking off a rail which should make this shot legal.

Most importantly, I find that being convincing in your explantion solves many disputes.

Harold Acosta
06-25-2002, 08:05 PM
I have to say that your shot was illegal. In 99% of bar rooms, you have to shoot your last ball "clean" without touching any other ball. You are supposed to know that since most probably you started playing at bar rooms.

Most people who are playing recreational pool at these halls have no idea whatsoever of "official rules" of any of the organizations out there. If you pull a stunt like you did, and the players of the house don't know the "official rules" you will most likely get in trouble.

The first thing you must do when you come into these rooms is watch the players first, then decide to play, but ask for their rules since you are playing in "their" turf.

In order words, you have to lower your playing skills to what is customary to the pool patrons at the place you are visiting. You cannot come up with your own rules, although you might be recognized as a better player. Ball in hand is a no no, and yes if your last object ball is behind the headstring, and the cue ball is scratched, you have to bank and try to hit your ball. Plain and simple my friend.

Don't spoil others people fun by putting new rules in their games. You are playing in their turf. This is called "Pool room etiquette."

Just my two cents on this subject.

WaltVA
06-25-2002, 11:25 PM
Locally there is a strong APA league presence, and on league nights, the incoming player will frequently ask the tableholder "League or bar rules?" All other times, bar rules are expected and the 8 can't be caromed in. Several locations that have weekly 8-ball tournaments have a set of rules posted, and universally it's "the 8 must go clean."

Walt in VA

06-26-2002, 03:40 AM
Kid...Strictly speaking, bar rules are exactly that! Whatever the "house" or the two players involved deem to be the applicable rules. However, regarding your incident, I find it VERY common among people who have no clue about
"real" rules to frequently claim that you have to call every little kiss and bank. I love to play these people, and show them how useless it is to play this way...by asking them pointedly, when they are shooting, odd questions like, "are you going to hit this rail, or that rail"...and then controlling the CB so that are left with NO shots at all! Usually when people see that you control the CB so much better than them, the see the folly in calling everything. One other suggestion...carry a BCA rule book with you. That has settled many an argument, when someone sees it in print! LOL Best answer to your question is to make sure exactly WHAT rules you are playing by before the game starts. Good luck!

Scott Lee

________________________________________

yes, I should have asked. Sometimes I forget that not EVERYONE knows the rules to pool. I tell people that the reason they have "call pocket only" rules is because of what you were talking about.. "What if the ball skims the rail before going in? or rattles and falls.. did you call it 3 rails???" hahaha! Anyways, a carom shot is harder than a strait in shot usually (or so they think..), and when someone can make it, most people don't complain (even bar rule players!) so I usually get away with it.. their idea (I think)is "this is is one of them 'fancy' shots thats almost impossible to make so if he makes it I'll let him have the game.." bla bla bla..

I personally would never complain about such a shot, and never have. If someone is talented (or lucky as the case may be) enough to make one, I feel they deserve the game.. But I guess the general rule in bars is "No caroming of the 8-ball" but what about other balls.. what if I wanted to carom my 12 off of his/her 3 ball or whatever? is that legal? Can I follow a ball in? Can I play a tiki shot? Or am I reduced to strait shots and banks? I don't know where I'm going with this, just beating a horse that I know is dead. Trying to win this war would be like trying to convince people that Chris Columbus didn't discover America because the indians were already here.. Oh well. Thanks to everyone for the replies! I think I'll quit my practice of caroming the 8 in bar rules.. or at least I'll ask if it's ok first. But it did start a great discussion amongst the bar people!! Lots of haughty laughs and sarcasm.. "Huh huh huh.. you can't take the 8 off another ball! Thats a loss!!!" bla bla bla.. gee, I hope I don't scratch on the break and lose the game that way! hehe..

jjinfla
06-26-2002, 07:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Harold Acosta:</font><hr> I have to say that your shot was illegal. In 99% of bar rooms, you have to shoot your last ball "clean" without touching any other ball. You are supposed to know that since most probably you started playing at bar rooms.

If you pull a stunt like you did, and the players of the house don't know the "official rules" you will most likely get in trouble.

The first thing you must do when you come into these rooms is watch the players first, then decide to play, but ask for their rules since you are playing in "their" turf.

In order words, you have to lower your playing skills to what is customary to the pool patrons at the place you are visiting. You cannot come up with your own rules, although you might be recognized as a better player. Ball in hand is a no no, and yes if your last object ball is behind the headstring, and the cue ball is scratched, you have to bank and try to hit your ball. Plain and simple my friend.

Don't spoil others people fun by putting new rules in their games. You are playing in their turf. This is called "Pool room etiquette."

Just my two cents on this subject. <hr></blockquote>

Well said Harold. We play the 8 clean here too. We used to play "call your shot" on the other balls but I convinced the owner that that just makes it much harder on the weaker players so he dropped that and we play "call pocket" and we play a modified ball-in-hand where the cue ball plays from the kitchen on a foul. And if your last ball is in the kitchen then it gets spotted. These are the rules. These are the rules we like to play with. If a person doesn't like our rules then we tell him not to let the door hit him in the ass on the way out. If there are 16 or more players then first prize is always at least $75. And he pays the top 6. And he puts food out for the players too. Seems that poolplayers are a bunch of cry babies. Always crying about something rather than "learning" the rules. Ever get into a ring game before you learned the rules? Are you going to tell me every ring game is played the same? If you play APA do you complain that BCA rules are played different. Or if you are BCA do you quote APA? Or if you are a top tournament player and they are using Texas Express do you try and quote BCA or APA? Maybe some of you should take up knitting or sewing. On second thought, you might be too lazy to learn the rules that apply there and might stick the needles in your eyes, and try and blame someone else. Jake

Harold Acosta
06-26-2002, 07:41 AM
Seattle Kid:

You can caroom your object balls against theirs except for the 8 ball. Eight ball has to go in "clean." Double kissing is sometimes not permitted, you have to ask first. You do not have to call all details of the shot, and DON'T carry a BCA book with you, that's a huge NO, NO. They'll make fun of you, and if you are in a bar room where there are lots of hecklers or "characters", you don't want to be the subject of their conversation.

Just exercise care/prudency when playing outside your turf.

Wally_in_Cincy
06-26-2002, 08:04 AM
[Quote: jjinfla]

Maybe some of you should take up knitting or sewing. On second thought, you might be too lazy to learn the rules that apply there and might stick the needles in your eyes, and try and blame someone else. Jake <hr></blockquote>

Sheesh! Calm down JJ /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

This thread just proves how many variations there are of bar rules and how Seattle Kid may have misinterpreted the rules where he was playing.

Every bar player knows the rules at the bar where THEY play. And in a particular town or area rules tend to be similar.

However, it is impossible to know all the rules at a bar you've never been in. Of course you should ask before you play, but laziness has nothing to do with it.

heater451
06-26-2002, 08:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Seattle--kid:</font><hr> I personally would never complain about such a shot, and never have. If someone is talented (or lucky as the case may be) enough to make one, I feel they deserve the game.. But I guess the general rule in bars is "No caroming of the 8-ball" but what about other balls.. what if I wanted to carom my 12 off of his/her 3 ball or whatever? is that legal?<hr></blockquote>
Oddly enough, I have noticed that most "bar rules" players only have a problem with the carom on the 8 ball--I guess they just learned that "it has to be clean". As far as caroming anything else, it's really not that much different than using the opponents ball in the middle of a combo (ex: solid-stripe-solid). Besides, if you call 'everything' then it should count.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Seattle--kid:</font><hr>Can I follow a ball in?<hr></blockquote>I usually explain that this is the same as a regular carom, only that the opponents ball happens to fall into a pocket--although, I have also seen where some people would consider this a loss of shot (The reasoning being that theirs fell first. Similarly, if you put one of their balls in motion, in the course of making yours, and it falls into a pocket before yours, then they would consider it a loss of shot!)<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Seattle--kid:</font><hr> Can I play a tiki shot?<hr></blockquote>Showing my ignorance: What is a "tiki" shot--Is that where you mark the pocket with a torch, and bury a roasting pig under the table? Or, do you have to wear a mask and a grass skirt? /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Seattle--kid:</font><hr>Or am I reduced to strait shots and banks?<hr></blockquote>Don't forget kicks, jumps, and masse shots. . . .<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Seattle--kid:</font><hr>Trying to win this war would be like trying to convince people that Chris Columbus didn't discover America because the indians were already here..<hr></blockquote>Many people hold that Vikings hit the shores, between Indians and Columbus--I've seen no evidence to support that they made their own pool cues. <blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Seattle--kid:</font><hr>I think I'll quit my practice of caroming the 8 in bar rules.. or at least I'll ask if it's ok first.<hr></blockquote>Probably the best idea, although, I have a couple of more things to add:

1) The carom shot really shouldn't come up enough to worry about it--trust me, I've spent a lot of time on 7 ft Valley tables.

2) If you're a practiced player, you should be able to make the ball with another shot. Or, you should be able to position for a 'cleaner' shot, and stay out of the situation.

Good Luck out there!

heater451
06-26-2002, 08:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Harold Acosta:</font><hr> . . .In order words, you have to lower your playing skills to what is customary to the pool patrons at the place you are visiting. You cannot come up with your own rules, although you might be recognized as a better player. Ball in hand is a no no, and yes if your last object ball is behind the headstring, and the cue ball is scratched, you have to bank and try to hit your ball. Plain and simple my friend.

Don't spoil others people fun by putting new rules in their games. You are playing in their turf. This is called "Pool room etiquette."

Just my two cents on this subject.<hr></blockquote>
I agree with what you mean, but not exactly how you say it. . .It's not quite "lowering" ones skills, to play by the other rules. It is simply a shift in thinking.

After all, I dare say that we're ALL familiar with "bank the 8" and "follow the last ball", but we don't complain--as long as we're informed 'up front'.

9 Ball Girl
06-26-2002, 09:36 AM
That's exactly what I do. If I am the incoming player, then I'll leave the rules up to the person who's running the table. If I'm the person running the table, then regardless of the rules I had just finished playing by, I'll revert back to the house rules since this is what usually is expected from the locals. I'm pretty flexible when it comes to that.

06-26-2002, 10:10 AM
Quote: Seattle--kid:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can I play a tiki shot?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Showing my ignorance: What is a "tiki" shot--Is that where you mark the pocket with a torch, and bury a roasting pig under the table? Or, do you have to wear a mask and a grass skirt?

_____________________

Not quite, but that would be impressive.. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif A tiki shot is a shot to use when your opponents ball is in front of your ball, but is off the rail far enough that you can squeeze your ball to hit the rail right under their ball, bounce off their ball and go into the pocket. So say if your ball was 2 1/2 inches off the rail, and blocking the pocket for a strait in shot for my ball, I can hit mine against the rail and almost paralell with your ball so that it "uses" your ball to guide mine in.. it's like a bank/carom combo thing. Hard to explain, but relatively easy to make.

Quote: Seattle--kid:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or am I reduced to strait shots and banks?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't forget kicks, jumps, and masse shots. . . .

---------------------

Actually, I've had complaints about masse shots too.. mostly from bar owners who, understandably, are afraid of ANYONE masseing on their tables. So I rarely do anything more than a curve shot.

Quote: Seattle--kid:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trying to win this war would be like trying to convince people that Chris Columbus didn't discover America because the indians were already here..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many people hold that Vikings hit the shores, between Indians and Columbus--I've seen no evidence to support that they made their own pool cues.

------------------------

Well, I have two viking cues, and they work well.. so whoever made them, whether they 'discovered' America or not.. makes a pretty decent cue IMO. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif


1) The carom shot really shouldn't come up enough to worry about it--trust me, I've spent a lot of time on 7 ft Valley tables.

2) If you're a practiced player, you should be able to make the ball with another shot. Or, you should be able to position for a 'cleaner' shot, and stay out of the situation.

---------------------------

I usually only play on the 8' valley tables. There is a wierd disagreement sometimes about 7 and 8 foot tables, and some think that any pool table in a bar is a 7 footer.. however, a 7 footer has a playing surface of (I believe) something like 34" x 68" An 8 footer is (for sure) 44" x 88" and a 9 footer is 50" x 100". A 7-foot table isn't even worth playing on IMO, unless you are under 15 years old. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

and #2, Thats true, usually I always get a clean shot or a good bank, but after the break, the 8-ball went to the side rail and was clustered in with ALL of her balls.. it was hard to even hit it without it touching one of hers.. although I probably could have just put it out in the open and waited for my next turn.. but why would she want to delay the inevitable?? hahah.. just kidding. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Fred Agnir
06-26-2002, 10:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: heater451:</font><hr> Showing my ignorance: What is a "tiki" shot--<hr></blockquote>

In pool, a "ticky" is a rail-first short carom with either the object ball:

START(
%AF4E5%BL7P8%DZ4M2%FH9T0%GK6N8%HN1F6%PT1I8%UD4D1%V F9D8%WO7G3
%XS0I2%YI2D1%ZM3F1%[G8D4%\H9C8
)END

or the cueball:

START(
%AC7C9%BL7P8%DF9E8%FH9T0%GK6N8%H_5K9%PT1I8%UE6D4%V F9D8%YI2D1
%ZR8I3%[G8D4%\H9C8
)END

Same idea as a ticky in billiards, except usually something is going in a hole in pool.

Fred

Fred Agnir
06-26-2002, 10:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Seattle--kid:</font><hr> I usually only play on the 8' valley tables. There is a wierd disagreement sometimes about 7 and 8 foot tables, and some think that any pool table in a bar is a 7 footer.. however, a 7 footer has a playing surface of (I believe) something like 34" x 68" An 8 footer is (for sure) 44" x 88" and a 9 footer is 50" x 100". A 7-foot table isn't even worth playing on IMO, unless you are under 15 years old. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif
<hr></blockquote>

Most 7' bar tables have a larger playing surface (40" x 80") than a 7' home table (~ 38" x 76"). So, people get confused. Some people have never seen an 8' bar table. 8' bar tables are standard in the area that I work, presumably because all of the bars get their tables from the same amusement company. I've been to a couple of places that had 9' coin-op tables.

BTW, Kid, all of the amateur league national tournaments (APA, VNEA, BCA) are played on 7' bar tables.

Fred

06-26-2002, 10:24 AM
If you play APA do you complain that BCA rules are played different. Or if you are BCA do you quote APA? Or if you are a top tournament player and they are using Texas Express do you try and quote BCA or APA? Maybe some of you should take up knitting or sewing. On second thought, you might be too lazy to learn the rules that apply there and might stick the needles in your eyes, and try and blame someone else. Jake

---------------------------

thats a nice bravado you have there, but what if the rule is stupid in the first place?? But I suppose for a decent player to be able to carom makes it tough on the 'weaker' players.. so I should not use such "advanced shots" against them?!? Is that the case? You guys there sound like the kind that would whine if someone played you a smart safety and call it "sissy pool" because you are too lazy to learn how to kick or too thick to think of playing safe.. or maybe it's a cowboy macho thing to try to run out even if it's almost impossible.. (adding to the thickness). I don't know, but I do like the modified ball in hand rule.. I've always thought that ball in hand for a foul anywhere on the table was a harsh price to pay for a foul, and it should be at least in the kitchen with the option of spotting the last ball if it's in the kitchen.

Anyways, thanks for the opinion, even if it was borderline insulting.

06-26-2002, 10:43 AM
This thread just proves how many variations there are of bar rules and how Seattle Kid may have misinterpreted the rules where he was playing.

Every bar player knows the rules at the bar where THEY play. And in a particular town or area rules tend to be similar.

end quote_______________________________

Well, the funny thing is, in this bar, 1/2 the people know actual tournament rules, the other half don't know anything but their 'bar rules' or a wierd interpretation of "vegas rules." Although, this particular place has 4 pool tables and a pool table in the lounge. Alot of GOOD shooters shoot there, and they hold weekly tournaments. Sometimes on the signup board for the tables we actually put the words "Vegas" for a particular table, however, I usually ask the person I'm playing if it's vegas or bar rules. The two guy I played before this lady wanted vegas rules, so we used them.. but I was so oblivious to the outside world in this game against her, I forgot we weren't playing vegas rules anymore.

but my argument is, WHY is it illegal to carom the 8 off another ball to make it, if you call the hit? I don't really care that much, and I know it'll never change untill people learn to appreciate the "call pocket only" aspect of the game. What if a ball was sitting near the hole that the 8 ball was close to and I called it "dirty" (in other words, that it was going to hit the other ball on the way in.." is that illegal? I suppose so in most cases. some other rules that are misinterpreted are:

Open table after the break, or is it "take what you make?"

Is a scratch on the 8, if the 8 stays on the table, a loss of game, or ball in hand?

Is an 8-ball break a win, or do you spot it back up with the option of reracking, or playing the table how it is?

Is it "cueball fouls only" or ANY fouls.. I.e. touching a ball is a foul, even with clothing, or do you just move it back at the other players request?

Thank God these siuations only come up every once in a while, or I'd take up an official seat as a refferee because the money would be so good.

heater451
06-26-2002, 10:55 AM
Thanks for the diagrams, Fred.

I've shot these, but I never really considered calling them anything special, since they're sort of kick-and-carom shots. "Learn something new every day. . ."

(BTW, I had more to ask/say about "precession" and spinning cue balls, but my server session must've timed out, each time I was ready to post (3 times!), and they didn't go through. I got fed up, and decided to let it go. . . .Someday, maybe I'll dig it out of the archive, and hit you with it when you least expect it. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif )

heater451
06-26-2002, 11:01 AM
I don't think you will find any of these rules carved in stone, as they are passed along pretty much by word-of-mouth. . . .

Just consider that for the same game, the rules can differ--like the difference in College vs. Professional football. They have their proponents and opponents, but the point is, the games are still played under both.

As long as you work out the intricacies with the people you play with, you can adjust.

I used to jump back and forth between rule sets at a challenge table, depending on whether I was playing an 'unknown', or a friend/league player. In fact, even my best friends and I would make sure that we were going back to league (BCA) rules, if one of us were following an unknown challenger!

06-26-2002, 04:08 PM
BTW, Kid, all of the amateur league national tournaments (APA, VNEA, BCA) are played on 7' bar tables.

-----------------------

Well, I haven't played a national tournament yet. Anyhow, how could they possibly play on those tables!??! The only thing I could say is that it is actually very difficult to play on a 7-footer. Everything gets clustered, you have to use alot of different speeds, but rarely ever do you use a firm hit.

But are you SURE they are 7-footers? Alot of people call the 8-footer a 7-footer, probably because the playing surface of an "8-footer" is 88" which make the playing surface 7' 4". If you round down, that would make the table a 7-footer, and what I would call the 7-footer would be more like a 6 footer. So if you can find somewhere that tells you the PLAYING SURFACE dimentions, I would almost bet that those national tournaments are on 44x88" tables.. however, like I said, I've never played one yet, so I wouldn't know for sure.

06-26-2002, 04:20 PM
I'm having trouble with making an account on here, so I have to put two dashes in my usual Seattle-kid logon name.. so I forgot to put in my "username".. sorry. /ccboard/images/icons/frown.gif

06-26-2002, 04:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Harold Acosta:</font><hr> Seattle Kid:

You can caroom your object balls against theirs except for the 8 ball. Eight ball has to go in "clean." Double kissing is sometimes not permitted, you have to ask first. You do not have to call all details of the shot, and DON'T carry a BCA book with you, that's a huge NO, NO. They'll make fun of you, and if you are in a bar room where there are lots of hecklers or "characters", you don't want to be the subject of their conversation.

Just exercise care/prudency when playing outside your turf.

<hr></blockquote>

I would never try to bring a BCA rulebook with me, unless I was trying stand-up comedy. If I were playing with serious players, I wouldn't hesitate to bring my book to settle a dispute.. but in a bar, anything goes really, but then again.. not really. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

rackmup
06-26-2002, 04:46 PM
You are asking for an "official" ruling on "unofficial bar rules".

This is one of the reasons most players avoid bar play on bar-boxes all together. It is also one of those areas where you must be crystal clear to your opponent regarding the "rules" you are playing by:

"Excuse me Mr./Mrs. Opponent...I am going to pocket the eight ball in the corner pocket, at the northwest corner of the table nearest the Spuds McKenzie Budweiser sign and I will be contacting the cueball with the mushroomed tip of my crooked bar cue using top center and slightly touching the rail with the oversized cueball prior to hitting the eight because the table isn't level and then caroming the eight off of your three ball into the pocket past the peeling felt and the cigarette burn and after completing the shot I will use the restroom and hold myself with my right hand while using my left hand to keep my pants up. OKAY?"

See what I mean? It's just too much to deal with.

Regards,

Ken (would choose to have warts on the inside of my eyelids rather than play in a bar on a bar-box with the self-proclaimed bar-box champion that plays by bar rules.)

Fred Agnir
06-26-2002, 07:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr>But are you SURE they are 7-footers? Alot of people call the 8-footer a 7-footer, probably because the playing surface of an "8-footer" is 88" which make the playing surface 7' 4". <hr></blockquote>

Sheesh, Kid. Read my post again. It should be pretty evident I know what you're talking about and that I know all about the sizes of bar tables.

Fred

Fred

9 Ball Girl
06-27-2002, 08:21 AM
ROFLMAO!!!!!! My coworkers think I'm nuts now as I sit here LMAO by myself!!!! /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

Wendy~~Always raising eyebrows

9 Ball Girl
06-27-2002, 08:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: rackmup:</font><hr> because the table isn't level <hr></blockquote>

Maybe, as mentioned in a prior post, one should bring their BCA rule book. You can use it to level the table! /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

I'm sorry, I couldn't help it!

Wendy~~Still LMAO and raising eyebrows

06-27-2002, 08:43 AM
Sheesh, Kid. Read my post again. It should be pretty evident I know what you're talking about and that I know all about the sizes of bar tables.

Fred

---------------------------------

Sorry man, it's just hard to believe that they would use a kids' table for national tournaments. Maybe thats their handicap is having to use a bar-box!?!?

Wally_in_Cincy
06-27-2002, 09:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Seattle--kid:</font><hr>
Sorry man, it's just hard to believe that they would use a kids' table for national tournaments. Maybe thats their handicap is having to use a bar-box!?!? <hr></blockquote>

I would estimate that 90% of APA and VNEA matches around the nation are played on 7-footers. They are generally TAVERN leagues. Consequently the national tournaments are played on the same size tables.

Wally~~doesn't mind a bar box if it's level and has decent cloth and if the balls don't have chicken wing sauce on them.

SPetty
06-27-2002, 11:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Seattle--kid:</font><hr> I'm having trouble with making an account on here, so I have to put two dashes in my usual Seattle-kid logon name.. so I forgot to put in my "username".. sorry. /ccboard/images/icons/frown.gif <hr></blockquote>Hi Kid,

Try again. The site shows a user with an id of "Seattle-kid". Make sure you log in - go to the top of the page and press the "Login" link. If you try to post as "Seattle-kid" without logging on, it won't let you, because it thinks that you're trying to be someone you're not. Or something like that. Anyway, go log in if you remember your password before posting. Then you don't even have to type in your name - the system doesn't give you a choice.

Good luck.

phil in sofla
06-27-2002, 02:48 PM
The main feature of 'bar rules' generally is that the entire SHOT must be called, not just the pocket. That seems nearly universal.

Now, as to 8-ball clean, or allowed to be caromed in off another ball (if called), that isn't so clear. I've seen it both ways, and I couldn't speculate as to which way is more dominant out there (and I've only been in a couple regions of the country, so other regions may vary).

What is REALLY way out there, and seemingly without any sense to it, playing (non-ball-in-hand) regular bar rules in NY or Chicago, maybe some other places, if you are on the 8, you must hit it, or else it is loss of game outright. Not that it has to result in something going to a rail, or being pocketed, lest it be a foul, and thus loss of game. Nothing but the mere hit is required.

As to bringing in the BCA rulebook to 'settle' what the 'real' rules are, good luck for anyone trying to get people to agree to that, if they see the rules on scratching when on the 8 not an automatic loss of game (unless the 8 goes as well as the cue ball). EXCEPT for BCA leagues or events, or playing bank-the-8, everyone else generally calls a scratch when shooting on the 8 a loss of game, period. If BCA rules don't seem to guide even 'better' players' leagues, APA, etc., why would anyone expect them to hold much meaning to bar shooters?

06-27-2002, 08:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Seattle--kid:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; I'm having trouble with making an account on here, so I have to put two dashes in my usual Seattle-kid logon name.. so I forgot to put in my "username".. sorry. /ccboard/images/icons/frown.gif &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Hi Kid,

Try again. The site shows a user with an id of "Seattle-kid". Make sure you log in - go to the top of the page and press the "Login" link. If you try to post as "Seattle-kid" without logging on, it won't let you, because it thinks that you're trying to be someone you're not. Or something like that. Anyway, go log in if you remember your password before posting. Then you don't even have to type in your name - the system doesn't give you a choice.

Good luck.
<hr></blockquote>


Thank you, I've been trying for a week now, and everytime I try to log in, I can log in, but then it has an error message that says "username/password not found" and I can't edit any of my preferences without getting the same message.. then if I click on the CCB link from there, I'm still basically "unknown"

I wrote to the webmaster, but haven't gotten a reply back yet.. still waiting...... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

06-27-2002, 09:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: phil in sofla:</font><hr> The main feature of 'bar rules' generally is that the entire SHOT must be called, not just the pocket. That seems nearly universal.

Now, as to 8-ball clean, or allowed to be caromed in off another ball (if called), that isn't so clear. I've seen it both ways, and I couldn't speculate as to which way is more dominant out there (and I've only been in a couple regions of the country, so other regions may vary).

What is REALLY way out there, and seemingly without any sense to it, playing (non-ball-in-hand) regular bar rules in NY or Chicago, maybe some other places, if you are on the 8, you must hit it, or else it is loss of game outright. Not that it has to result in something going to a rail, or being pocketed, lest it be a foul, and thus loss of game. Nothing but the mere hit is required.

As to bringing in the BCA rulebook to 'settle' what the 'real' rules are, good luck for anyone trying to get people to agree to that, if they see the rules on scratching when on the 8 not an automatic loss of game (unless the 8 goes as well as the cue ball). EXCEPT for BCA leagues or events, or playing bank-the-8, everyone else generally calls a scratch when shooting on the 8 a loss of game, period. If BCA rules don't seem to guide even 'better' players' leagues, APA, etc., why would anyone expect them to hold much meaning to bar shooters? <hr></blockquote>

My thoughts exactly. Some people will let you hit the 8-ball off one of theirs to make it.. some won't.. sometimes you don't know untill you do it. /ccboard/images/icons/frown.gif

06-27-2002, 09:18 PM
Ask the rules before you play and try to remember them. When finally you need a special shot, simply ask...
Can I do this cannon, or can I bank this ball onto your six ball, touching my ball off the rail, nudging off your ball into the corner pocket. Most often they say sure! In total disbelief that you can pull it off.

My lost years talking....