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View Full Version : Americans are Irresponsible, Say Bush & Cheney



Gayle in MD
11-17-2005, 07:28 AM
Well, folks, if this doesn't take the cake, what does. Here we have an administration which intentionally left out information, which did not support their wish to go to war, when they addressed the Congress and the Senate, and the United Nations, and Set in motion an ugly, covert attack to discredit atleast one critic, Joe Wilson, who sought to dispell one of their lies, and out his wife, who according to the Feds, was classifed, Secret, and whose work was "Classified" AND during wartime, and then, while our troops are dying everyday so that the Iraqis can have freedom of speech, both Bush and Cheney lash out against Democrats for using their own freedom of speech by demanding that the lies they told us in the first place, be investigated on the hill. This after the Resmuglicans have stalled the investigation for over a year! What ARE They AFRAID OF?????

The right wing press, has already put their usual unfactual twist onto the news regarding Bob Woodwards revelation that "Someone" told him about Valarie Plame before Novak wrote his story, by leaving out the word, KNOWN in the Special Prosecutors statement that Mr. Libbey was the first "KNOWN" person to tell reporters about Valarie, in spite of the fact that Little Scooter lied under oath about conversations with reporters.

The question is this:

How will the Bush administration continue to convince Americans that it is worthwhile to fight for the Iraqis' freedom of speech, while at the same time degrading Americans for voicing their concerns, and exercising their freedom of speech, over the WAY this war was launched in the first place????

Does this mean that Freedom of Speech for the Iraqis, matters to President Bush and Vice President Cheney, but Freedom Of Speech for Americans, is irresponsible, unless it supports their policies? This is precisely what Bush said, we the people, are irresponsible if we investigate his lies.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif WHAT ARE THEY AFRAID OF???? Cheney said that it is dishonest and reprehensible for the Democrats, whom he referred to as "Politicians" to question the administrations honesty. Doest this mean that he and Bush were not dishonest and reprehensible to mislead the nation and the world by their false assertions regarding Saddam's WMD's while they knew that there were contradicting opinions among many Intelligence experts, and inspectors that weakened their arguements?

Investigating lies, is now re-writing history. Over and over again they say that the Democrats saw the same intelligence that they saw, a blatant lie. Reminds me of the smoking gun, that was coming in the form of a mushrrom cloud, what a bunch of drama junkies!

Gayle in Md.

pooltchr
11-17-2005, 08:25 AM
Gayle,
The word is "speech".

supergreenman
11-17-2005, 09:12 AM
What was the result of Cindy Sheehans Protesting without a permit trial yesturday?

Protesting with out a permit???????? Does that mean you need a permit to excersize your constitutional rights of freedom of assembly and freedom of speech? what if they raise the price of the permit? Does that make Freedom of Speech a commodity? I couldn't find it on the NYSE

Gayle in MD
11-17-2005, 09:29 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif If any of us dare to question this administration, we are personally attacked. This has been the most secretive and aloof bunch I can remember. Now we learn that Cheney had secret meetings with the oil men, hence, we are fattening the pockets of Cheney & the Bush dynasty while the oil companies gauge us and rake in unprecedented profits.

Gayle in Md.

9 Ball Girl
11-17-2005, 10:19 AM
All I can say is that this Administration will go down in history as the most [censored] [censored] adminstration ever.

Now where's my blow job?

Gayle in MD
11-17-2005, 10:23 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

supergreenman
11-17-2005, 11:32 AM
~~~smirks :P

pooltchr
11-17-2005, 01:23 PM
Gayle,
I don't think you have been personally attacked for questioning the administration. I know I have never personally attacked you for any reason. But you are going to draw some heat when you say things that don't have a factual base. When someone calls you out for not having facts to back up your comments, you have a habit of reverting to name calling. Maybe not the best tactic. And calling the President a "Chimp" doesn't add to your credibility...it just makes it look like you are being more emotional than necessary.
By all means, continue to express your opinions...just don't take it so personal when someone disagrees or points out the error of your thinking.
JMHO
Steve

Qtec
11-17-2005, 01:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
And calling the President a "Chimp" doesn't add to your credibility. <hr /></blockquote>

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/2978/pic306vf.jpg

I dont know, its hard to tell them apart. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

supergreenman
11-17-2005, 02:05 PM
The one on the right looks smarter.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DickLeonard
11-17-2005, 02:30 PM
Pooltchr I think Gayle missed spelled the work[word] there I go it must be contagious, she must have meant Chump no wait we're the Chumps she must have meant chimp. God my head is spinning around with words trying to fix a word that completes the Question. Who is the Chimp/Chump or who is the Chump/Chimp. I give up.####

SnakebyteXX
11-17-2005, 06:13 PM
You're not the first one to notice the resemblance...

Bush or Chimp? (http://www.bushorchimp.com/)

Sid_Vicious
11-17-2005, 06:36 PM
The Chimp is not a member here, so I call him fair game for pointed slurs. He IS a chimp, brain included. It is different to slam someone not posting here, and inexcusable to return counter-slams to actual members. My2c and I'm sticking to it...sid

Gayle in MD
11-18-2005, 12:41 AM
Your post makes absolutely no sense to me. Any reference I make to personal attacks is aimed at the Bush Administration, although I notice that personal attacks seem to be a republican tactic in general.

As for calling Bush a chimp,.....that's a great big Improvment over what I usually call him, LOL. You call him Mr. President, if you wish, I call him BOZO!

Gayle in Md. Jeeze, when will the right stop trying to dictate?????

Gayle in MD
11-18-2005, 12:46 AM
AH HA HA HA HA HA....too funny! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Love You Dick.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Love,
Gayle

Gayle in MD
11-18-2005, 12:58 AM
HA HA HA HA! What a scream. Thnks for the link....

We are mean to call him a chimp.....We're not being fair to the Chimps, LOL... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Gayle In Md.

Gayle in MD
11-18-2005, 08:00 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran Crimi
11-18-2005, 09:52 AM
This makes more sense to me than anything I've read on the subject so far. ---Fran---

The French Connection (http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4970)

supergreenman
11-18-2005, 10:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> This makes more sense to me than anything I've read on the subject so far. ---Fran---

The French Connection (http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4970) <hr /></blockquote>

A quick look at the contributors to this on-line publication reveal that they belong to the so called "moral majority" pro-life supporting elephant(with mouse ears) club. The home page has an article titled "Winning in Iraq losing at home". WINNING in Iraq? they must support the legalization of pot too cuz they're on something. Oh wait, pot doesn't make you lose your grasp of reality.

Fran Crimi
11-18-2005, 10:56 AM
I never even looked at the contributors. Who cares? I read liberal websites too. I'm looking for facts. The Wilson-French connection seems very plausable here.

Fran

wolfdancer
11-18-2005, 11:14 AM
Gayle, it's time to end this ongoing controversy here....and you probably even should apologize to the folks that defend the President's and Haliburton"s policies.
As reported, there wasn't any secret plot,conspirancy, etc....
The "WMD's in Iraq" report was just an "honest mistake"
Any super power's Intelligence agency could have done the same thing....it's just that ours is so much better at misinterpreting facts.....like when the "Iraqi" agents applied for student loans, to go to flight school.....

Gayle in MD
11-18-2005, 12:37 PM
BWA HA HA HA HA...You da man Jack! Able Danger....and then when you recall Condoleeza Rice...
"Before 9/11, no one had ever thought about people flying airplanes into buildings." GIVE ME A BREAK !


In Richard Clarke's book he says when he heard her say that on television, while watching on C-Span, he said to the aid who was watching with him, "I guess she forgot !"

There is so much proof out there that the Bush Team refused to listen to the warnings about 9/11, which is precisely why they have tried to stop and or delay every single investigation of the lead up to 9/11, and the refusal to heed the warnings they were given by many in the CIA terrorist specialist group. They were only focussed on Saddam, straight from the start, and before 9/11. They then used 9/11 as an excuse to get our people into Iraq, when instead, they should have stayed the course in Afghanistan, and wiped out bin Laden when they had him cornered. This will be the biggest mistake of the Bush administration, when next he attacks our country.

The tragedy is that most Americans do not research through their own efforts beyond the sound bytes they hear on the news. Thus we have people on here who want to argue and call you a liar over things which are already accepted as fact by those who have done the reading required in order to come to reasonable, accurate conclusions.

I am looking forward to the resumption of the investigation into 9/11. The Democrats are not going to lay down for the repubs this time. They now have the majority of Americans behind them. We will see some big changes over these next six months which will show this bunch of lying crooks up for what they really are.

Gayle in Md.

Fran Crimi
11-18-2005, 01:04 PM
Speaking of Chimps...have you guys really spent any quality time checking into this guy Wilson? This guy makes Jane Fonda look like a genius.

He can't shut up about anything. He's always talking, mostly about himself and his great conquests. He's heavily connected to big business---even worse, FRENCH big business---. Does he deny to Corn that his wife is a CIA covert operative when asked the question? Nope. He says, "I can't talk about my wife, but if she were...." HELLO! He just did.

This guy wins my vote for Chimp of the year. He's two clicks away from treason and he thinks he's a damn patriot.

Fran

Gayle in MD
11-18-2005, 02:36 PM
Fran,
I've done a good bit of reading about the Wilson's. Just one thing, believe me, a Special Prosecutor doesn't spend two years looking into the outing of a CIA operative, who is classified, unless she is in fact classified, and secret. It was the CIA that asked for this investigation. One would think that the CIA knows whom is secret, and classified. The memo which was on the plane with the Bush cabinet had an S. next to her name. That was shortly before the Novak story was published, and all the conversations from the Vice Presidents' office with journalists. If you look into the history of the methods that have been used for years by Rove, and Cheney, it all fits together that they would launch an attack to discredit Joe Wilson, even if they had to out his wife to do it.

People in her position, are in the most dangerous of positions because their work involves using a business front overseas in private industry. When they are gone, many of the people they were hooked up with remain. There is no way for us to know, as regular citizens, just how damaging these conversations from Libby, Rove, and I suspect, Cheney, might have been to their security, or to our National Security, but certainly, the CIA would know, and hence, request an investigation into the matter.

In time, we will know the truth, and in the meantime, the republican machine will continue to grind away to make Joe Wilson look like a fool. But, I would think that it would serve us to remember that the investigation was requested by the CIA, and therefore, there must be truth in the contention that Valarie Plame was a covert undercover agent. Only the CIA determines how many people have been put in danger when people who are classifed have their identities revealed. This investigation was not launched by Joe Wilson, who has quite an impressive resume' in foriegn affairs, and particularly in Africa.

I suspect that we will not know all of this story until the investigation is complete, and I think that it is very interesting that Robert Novak's part of the story has been kept totally out of the news, and that he is flying under the radar of late. You hear absolutely nothing from him. I think that the Bomb in this story will come when the Novak testimoney becomes public.

If you look into Mr. Wilson's background, it is obvious that he would have been the ideal person to send. Many books I have read, have quotes from the people involved, regarding the way this administration handled any memos, or reports which did not enforce their intended desire to occupy Iraq. Also, the Bush Business history, and their decades long business relationships with the Arab Oil Cartel, is a subject which explains a great deal that seems very questionable, such as, why so many Arabic people, oil people and relatives of bin Laden, were flown out of the country immediately after the planes crashed into the World Trade Center, and at a time when all other aircraft in this country was grounded.

In order for anyone to understand this administration, one has to do a great deal of reading about the history of the relationship of the Bush family, and the Arab Oil Cartel. It is mind blowing, and it is sickening. Unfortunately most middle class Americans are so bogged down trying to make a living and raise their kids, much of what is out there never reaches them.

Also, contrary to what one may hear on the news channels, there is no time limitation regarding the kind of operative that Valarie Plame was. Regardless of how long she had been back in this country, her classified status, because of the kind of operative she was, could be determined only by the CIA, according to the importance of protecting her contacts over seas, and the conditions prevailing.

There is a lot being said, on some news stations, as a matter of fact, that isn't fact. The one thing we do know is that the Special Prosecutor in this case has no partisan connections, and that he is known for his honesty and integrity. He is referred to as an Elliot Ness type. My guess is that he is in fact on to something.

Gayle in Md.

DebraLiStarr
11-18-2005, 02:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> This makes more sense to me than anything I've read on the subject so far. ---Fran---

The French Connection (http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4970) <hr /></blockquote>

Fran,
That was a very well researched article. I don't understand this "Blame Bush" mentality. I have posted direct quotes from Clinton &amp; Gore. In 2000 Gore said he would support the overthrow of Saddam Hussein and his regime of terror. Instead of talking about an overthrow, GWB followed through on it and kicked his ass. Then we pulled him out a hole (he was rooming with Bugs Bunny no doubt and hiding because he was innocent and scared of the evil empire). Is it a perfect war? No. None of the past wars in our history been "perfect" nor were the leaders. If Bush was not elected Gore would have had to deal with 9/11 - Saddam Hussein - and subsequently would have been making decisions based on the same intelligence reports as GWB. I'm sure some of you will say I'm wrong about that, but it is true.

Fran Crimi
11-18-2005, 05:04 PM
Gayle, I don't know how you can think that Wilson was the perfect man for the job when he was being paid by the very same companies he was sent to investigate. You spoke out against that type of thing when Tom Delay did it.

Wilson had an obligation to deny that his wife was a CIA operative. He didn't. Doesn't that tell you something? Wilson brags about how he convinced Clinton to send money to these French-controlled African areas during his Presidency. Oh, happy, happy France. This whole thing is as rat-infested as it gets and it starts with France.

Wilson has and agenda...ego and greed. The French have an agenda...do whatever is possible to try to weaken the American government. Wilson was used and played like a fiddle. If he were a pool player, the sharks would have a field day with him. Ervolino would eat this guy for breakfast.

The man's narcissism is what got him. I wouldn't be surprised if Valerie knew it all along. She did set him up, didn't she?

Fran

Gayle in MD
11-18-2005, 05:27 PM
Fran,
Wilson went to Niger, pro bono. The French did not launch the investigation into the outing of Valarie Plam. It is the outing of a covert operative that is at issue here, not Joe Wilson.

The Bush people have a long long history of slandering people and ruining their careers, all the way from Texas to Washington D.C. Do you think that it is just a matter of coincidence that after Joe Wilson spoke out about the false statements in the Presidents State of the Union Address, that the White House had to issue a statement deleting the fourteen words about Saddam purchasing Yellow Cake from Africa, Niger?

Do you think it is just coincidence that Joe Wilson has been slammed by the right wing press since he took his stand regarding the lies told by the Bush administration. Saddam did not buy Yellow Cake. Saddam did not seek to buy Yellow Cake. Even the administration now admits to that.

Do you think that they didn't know that his wife was classified? Do you think that it is just a coincidence that Rove told Russart that Wilson's wife was fair game?

This "French" story has little to do with the thrust of the investigation, or the fact that the President stood before the American people, the Senate, and the Congress, and made false statements in his pitch to go to war in Iraq. If Wilson's story was not true, Believe me, THIS White House would never have come out and admitted that those fourteen words be disregarded.

Who do you think was Judy Martins other source? Why do you think she left the New York Times? Why do you think she refused to testify until the prosecutor agreed not to ask questions about anyone other than Scooter Libby? I'm telling you, Cheney is right in the middle of this whole thing.....

Gayle in md.

Gayle in Md.

Fran Crimi
11-18-2005, 05:45 PM
oops...double post.

Fran Crimi
11-18-2005, 05:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Fran,
Wilson went to Niger, pro bono. The French did not launch the investigation into the outing of Valarie Plam. It is the outing of a covert operative that is at issue here, not Joe Wilson.



Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Uh uh...I disagree. This is the catalyst for the whole investigation. I know that Wilson went to Niger pro bono. He was already being paid in a big way by his ongoing business dealings with those companies that he was sent to investigate. He was the perfect man to send in to squash the whole WMD issue with Niger. This is worse than Delay because it's treasonous stuff.

This is looking more and more like collusion between some very clever Frenchmen and some very greedy Democrats who are willing to sacrifice the credibility of the United States to the world in order to gain back the White House. I hope the special prosecutor turns the investigation inwards towards the CIA. Then we'll see where the real stench is coming from.

Fran

Qtec
11-18-2005, 09:26 PM
Sounds to me like a red-herring.

The known facts.

web page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowcake_documents)

[ QUOTE ]
Forged Documents
In late 2002, the administration was soliciting support for a policy of military force to disarm Iraq of weapons. The U.S. government had for some time alleged that Iraq both possessed and was continuing to develop weapons of mass destruction including nuclear, biological, and chemical arms. Among the allegations was that Iraq had attempted to purchase yellowcake. In particular, CIA director George Tenet and Secretary of State Colin Powell both cited an attempted yellowcake purchase from Niger in September testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. At that time, the U.K. government also publicly reported an attempted purchase from an unnamed African country. In December, the State Department issued a fact sheet listing the alleged Niger yellowcake affair in a report entitled "Illustrative Examples of Omissions From the Iraqi Declaration to the United Nations Security Council".[3] In his January 2003 State of the Union address, President George W. Bush repeated the allegation, citing British intelligence. The administration later conceded that evidence in support of the claim was inconclusive and stated "these 16 words should never have been included" in Bush's address to the nation, attributing the error to the CIA.[4]

Previously, in February 2002, three different American officials had made efforts to verify the reports. The deputy commander of U.S. Armed Forces Europe, Marine Gen. Carlton Fulford, went to Niger and met with the country's president. He concluded that, given the controls on Niger's uranium supply, there was little chance any of it could have been diverted to Iraq. His report was sent to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers. The U.S. Ambassador to Niger, Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick, was also present at the meeting and sent similar conclusions to the State Department. At roughly the same time, the CIA sent Ambassador Joseph Wilson to investigate the claims himself. Wilson had been posted to Niger 14 years earlier, and throughout a diplomatic career in Africa he had built up a large network of contacts in Niger. Wilson interviewed former prime minister of Niger, Ibrahim Assane Mayaki, who reported that he knew of no sales to Iraq. Mayaki did however recall that in June 1999 an Iraqi delegation had expressed interest in "expanding commercial relations", which he had interpreted to mean yellowcake sales.[5] Ultimately, Wilson concluded that there was no way that production at the uranium mines could be ramped up or that the excess uranium could have been exported without it being immediately obvious to many people both in the private sector and in the government of Niger. He returned home and told the CIA that the reports were "unequivocally wrong". The CIA passed this conclusion on to the White House, the FBI, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Defense Intelligence Agency.

In early October 2002, <font color="blue"> George Tenet called Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley, asking Hadley to remove reference to the Niger uranium from a speech Bush was to give in Cincinnati on Oct. 7. This was followed up by a memo asking Hadley to remove another, similar line. Another memo was sent to the White House expressing the CIA's view that the Niger claims were false; this memo was given to both Hadley and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice.</font color>

Further in March 2003, the Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) released results of his analysis of the documents. Reportedly, it took IAEA officials only a matter of hours to determine that these documents were fake. Using little more than a Google search, IAEA experts discovered indications of a <font color="blue"> crude forgery,</font color> such as the use of incorrect names of Nigerian officials. <font color="blue"> As a result, the IAEA reported to the U.N. Security Council that the documents were "in fact not authentic.</font color>"

<hr /></blockquote>


If the French forged the documents to make the US look bad, I think they would have done a better job.
The simplest explination is, that in order to make their case for war, GW&amp;Co were 'grasping at straws' because they didnt have any real evidence that Iraq was a threat.
Just months before 9/11 , Colin P said sanctions were working and that Saddam had been contained.
After 9/11, based on the same evidence, GW&amp;Co came to a completly different conclusion.

The investigation by the FBI into who forged the docs has ended and they still dont know who was responsible.
Do they really want to know?

Q......They also havent been able to find out who was behind the Anthrax attacks, but they do know that it came from a US Army facility.

supergreenman
11-18-2005, 11:22 PM
~~~Wonders if Fran still calls french fries Freedom Fries.

Gayle in MD
11-18-2005, 11:52 PM
I don't get your drift at all Fran. The information about Yellow Cake was not information that he would be getting from private industry in Niger. He would have been meeting with Officials in the Nigerian government. Treason, is what the officials in the White House could be charged with after outing a NOC, which is the most dangerous kind of operative one can be. And also, the most difficult kind of false identity for the CIA to create. These people operate overseas without the protection of a diplomatic passport, which means, if they are caught, they are executed.

Joe Wilson's career has been rather sterling from what I have been able to gather. I know that he risked his life in Baghdad to shelter in the embassy 800 Americans from Saddam Hussein. It was reported that he showed the stuff of heroism, and he was later named ambassador to Gabon, by none other than President George HW Bush. He retired in 1998, so I don't think he would have been in a position to be in cahoots with the French in any Government fashion.

Anyway, the right has circulated all kinds of untruths about the Wilson's, such as, "Everybody in Washington knew she worked for the CIA." The Special Prosecutor squashed that one pretty quickly when he stated in his address regarding the leak that Valerie Wilson's identity was not known ourside the intelligence community, not by her neighbors, or her friends. I don't think he would spend two years, and have already called in a new Grand Jury, if she hadn't been undercover in the first place. Also, it is widely known that Robert Novak and Karl Rove have gotten into hot water together in the past, for which Rove has been fired twice from both Bush campaigns, SR. and Jr. and also, Judith Miller is now considered to have been a journalistic operative for Bush. She is covering up for someone in the administration, IMO.

As for shady business dealings, what could be more suspect than the decades long business dealings between the Bush family and the Saudi Arabian oil cartel? Do you ever wonder why we are paying a fortune for oil, and the president never mentions the hardship that is being placed on Americans, who are being gouged by the oil companies, who BTW had secret meetings with Dick Cheney. I think if you want to look into some shady business dealings, you will surely find them right in the White House, not the CIA, or small time retirees like Joe Wilson.

I think you will find, when all is out, that the Bush administration, in order to beef up their cause to go to war, has embroidered quite a bit of information which was not accurate, and that the outing of an operative such as Valarie Plame, has the capacity to put many others in great danger, atleast, in my own studies, that is what I have come to think.

Gayle in Md.

Fran Crimi
11-19-2005, 06:50 AM
He outed his own wife, Gayle, simply by refusing to deny her position within the CIA.

Monsieur Wilson was not the perfect person to send to Niger. He was being paid by the very companies he was investigating. He had a major conflict of interest. His written account of what occurred is a joke. Sipping mint tea with officials? What kind of thing is that to write on such an important subject? What relevence is that? I've never seen such an unprofessionally prepared written statement like that in my life. He's a self-serving, traitorous jerk.

Fran

Fran Crimi
11-19-2005, 07:19 AM
LOL! The French never forgave us for tricking them into helping us win the Revolutionary war. They sure can hold grudges for a long time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

After 4 hard years of bloody battles, George Washington sent word to Philadelphia that our army was depleted, and defeat was mere months away. We were finished unless we got some help, and FAST.

Benjamin Franklin hopped a boat to Europe and pulled the best poker bluff in history. He visited King Charles, who thought Franklin was there to begin surrendor negotiations. Instead he was shocked to find an adamant Franklin declaring that we were months away from winning the war and that he was there to negotiate the British surrender. He told Charles that the French were "on their way" to finish things off. King Charles was shocked and appalled by this news, since as far as he knew, victory for the Brits was near.

Franklin immmediately left and headed to France, where he convinced the French ruler (I forget who) that we were months away from winning the war. He offered them an "opportunity" to be in on the victory by establishing their alliance with the U.S. by sending their fleet over to assist in expediting the end. The French fell for the bluff, since they hated the British stronghold in Europe, so they sent their fleet.

In the meantime, the British spies confirmed that indeed the French fleet was on the way to the Americas. King Charles began to reconsider his position and in a few months the war was over.

Fran

Gayle in MD
11-19-2005, 07:58 AM
Well Fran, that's your opinion. My opinion is that she was outed by journalists at the behest of the Bush administration, as a payback to the Wilson's for exposing the lies that George Bush told on the Senate floor, to all of us. If he was asked about his wife, his response was, "I will not discuss my wife." This, after she had already been written about.

Bush says over and over, "They saw the same intelligence that I saw." This is an out and out lie, and everyone in Government know it's a lie. The man who calls the shots is the man whose obligation it is to search through the intelligence and determine what is trustworthy and what is not, and especially when he is going to send our kids off to fight a war. It is HIS fault, not the Congress, not the Senate, George W. Bush.

Believe me, you can't trust infrmation from either right or left wing blogs. Both twist the truth. Bottom line, who is most in a position to hurt this country through a conflick of interests, Bush, and his shady, decades long dealings with the Oil Cartel, or Joe Wilson, LOL.

The congress should just cut to the bottom line, and find out how long GW promised the Saudis that our troops would continue to die because the Iraqis won't step up to the plate. They've had over two years, and they have only between five and eight hundred Iraqi's that they say can fight? WTF???? If people can't see how this war is being mismanaged, no stated plan, just Bush, over and over, "Stay the course." While refusing to give specifics. this isn't an administration, it's a dictatorship. The majority of Americans have seen through Bush's war, and the incompetence in handling the war, and the Iraqis want us out, polls indicate from seventy to eighty-eight percent of Iraqis want us out of there. Meanwhile, our borders are wide open, and our army has been run into the ground. This war is not going to accomplish anything that will insure OUR safety. We need to get the hell out of there, ASAP. Why should we do the Iraqis' dirty work? Why should they step up to the plate, as long as our boys and girls are over there dying for them. They need a deadline, get off your asses by a stated time. Why is Bush stonewalling everybody about how long he insists on our youth being in harms way. He has isolated himself from the Congress and the Senate, refusing to submit a plan for withdrawel, and offers nothing but sound bytes, and anyone who questions the continuence of a failed policy, and his mismanaged war, is attacking our troops. Do you even notice how seldom he puts himself out there for questions? There is plenty to worry about beyond Joe Wilson's mint tea....JMHO.

Gayle in Md.

Fran Crimi
11-19-2005, 08:06 AM
Forged documents: An Italian businessman working for France? What's not to know? I think that's pretty clear. France hands the document over to Britian (obviously to give to the U.S.) and then immediately states it's position against the invasion? How much more investigating do you need to see the forest through the trees?

What France obviously did not know at the time, was that the document was not the only source of information concerning the yellowcake sale that Britian provided to the U.S. There was also an independent source provided by Britian to the U.S. as stated in the last paragraph of this article below. The President withdrew his statement due to the forged document, not due to the additional information provided by Britian. All the forged document means is that that particular document was a forgery. It doesn't mean that there were no sales of yellowcake.

Do you honestly think that the CIA in sending Wilson over to Niger to "ask around" was going to get them the truth? Give me a break. LOL

"Um, excuse me gentlemen...have any of you been selling yellowcake to Iraq? No? Well, that's what I figured. Let's have some mint tea."

Fran


Agent behind fake uranium documents worked for France
By Bruce Johnston in Rome
(Filed: 19/09/2004)


......In July, the White House withdrew the president's claim, admitting that it was based on inaccurate information. British officials still say that their intelligence about Iraqi uranium purchases was supported by a second, independent source.

web page (http://http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=PYMJH4RNWO1G3QFIQMFCM5OAVCBQY JVC?xml=/news/2004/09/19/wniger19.xml)

Fran Crimi
11-19-2005, 10:29 AM
Gayle, I will say only one more thing on this. This is starting to look like the Kennedy assasination, only without the bullets.

Fran

Qtec
11-19-2005, 12:09 PM
The man himself.

[ QUOTE ]
29 September 2004. Thanks to SA.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Italian Ex-Spy Discusses Own Role in Iraq-Niger Uranium Traffic Hoax
Milan Il Giornale in Italian 21 Sep 04 p 4
IL GIORNALE
Tuesday, September 21, 2004

Interview with Italian former SID Defense Intelligence Service agent Rocco Martino by Gian Marco Chiocci; place and date not given: "Former 007 Rocco Martino Speaks Out: 'Here Is the Truth About Nigergate'" -- first two paragraphs are Il Giornale introduction

(FBIS Translated Text) [FBIS is the CIA's Foreign Broadcast Information Service.]

Rome -- After growing a mustache, he has now also grown a beard, and a thick one at that, but it is not phony like the ones that stereotype secret agents are alleged to sport. "Giacomo o' spione" ("James the spy" in southern Italian dialect) is the name favored by newspapers engaged in telling the spy story (previous two words in English in original) in which he is the leading player in connection with a hoax dossier on alleged uranium trafficking between Niger and Iraq. After being questioned by Assistant Public Prosecutor Franco Ionta, he agreed to make a confession to Il Giornale in a downtown bar. Almost as though he were organizing an (illegal) rave party (previous two words in English in original), 66-year-old Rocco Martino from Tropea, a "free-lance intelligence" (previous three words in English in original) agent as he likes to style himself, constantly shifted the venue of our rendez-vous, in keeping with his need to put people off the scent after a month of dangerous living around the world, in his capacity as a much-wanted key player in a mystery story involving the 007's of Italy, France, the United Kingdom, and the United States, and which is partly responsible for the US military operation in Iraq.

There was to be no beating about the bush. Former SID (Italian Defense Intelligence Service, now defunct) agent Martino went straight to the point: "I do not have much time, and even though I have quite a few things to say about this damned Nigergate business, I would like to start by pointing something out."

(Chiocci) Go ahead.

(Martino) I have not been on the run from the Italian law; I simply moved away for reasons that are easy to comprehend -- let us say, for personal security reasons and also so as not to become cannon fodder for the national media. I traveled abroad and that is where I stayed pending a summons from Prosecutor Ionta who had been contacted and urged to issue a summons by my lawyer, Giuseppe Placidi. When the magistrate asked to meet with me, I landed in Rome in the space of a few hours in order to provide my version of events, borne out by various documents and recordings that confirm my total good faith in this murky story -- a story which is much bigger than me, and in which I turned out to be the weak link.

(Chiocci) You speak of total good faith, but the file which you slipped to Panorama and which the weekly failed to publish after checking the affair out, was a spectacular hoax.

(Martino) I did not know that it was a hoax, and there is proof of what I say. I have been engaged in intelligence (previous word in English in original) for many years, offering my cooperation to various intelligence services including the French, about whom a great deal has been said and about whom we will be talking later on. The hoax began one day when a Nigerian (as published) Embassy source who had proven to be reliable on previous occasions and who had contacts also with the collaborator of a SISMI (Intelligence and Military Security Service) aide, passed on to me a whole lot of information. It is true that that information included some references to a uranium traffic between Niger and Iraq. What did I do at that juncture? I passed it on to the French secret service, with which I am in touch and by which I was remunerated. I passed it on also to Panorama, which assessed it in order to study it, dispatching a reporter to Niger and turning the file over to the US Embassy in Rome for cross-checking.

(Chiocci) What happened then?

(Martino) The female journalist told me that the trip to Niger had not produced any real confirmation, and also the French confirmed to me that the reports I had passed on to them were groundless. But at that juncture the beans had been spilled. The file was circulating, the reports contained in it were going around the world, and Bush and Blair were talking about those documents, albeit without actually mentioning them. I turned the television on and I did not believe my ears...

(Chiocci) The suspicion is that you may have played France's game, opposed as it was to intervention in Iraq and planning to cook up a "poisoned meat ball" to give the lie to the United States and to the United Kingdom, which were hunting around for any kind of excuse to justify the invasion of Iraq: Nigergate.

(Martino) I do not know what you are talking about. These are lunatic ravings, among other reasons because the documents in question originated <font color="blue"> back in 2000, a year before the attack on the Twin Towers in New York and three years before Bush's decision to proceed with the war against Saddam.</font color> <font color="blue"> ????????????????? </font color>

(Chiocci) Someone may have remembered those documents, picked them up out of the waste basket, and released them back into circulation at the right moment.

(Martino) Anything is possible. And in any case, I am the victim, the tool used by someone for games much bigger than me.

(Chiocci) When did you realize that you were in trouble?

(Martino) When I read an article in a British newspaper that more or less called me a hardened criminal, pointing the finger of accusation at me as a double-crosser working for the French, who were clearly interested in what we were talking about just now.

(Chiocci) But you were followed, photographed, and recorded while speaking with French agents.

(Martino) So? I told you, I cooperate with them. And not only with them. But I did not plot against Italy or against the United States.

(Chiocci) The British 007's think otherwise.

(Martino) That is their business.

(Chiocci) You told the Sunday Times in an interview that also the Italian Government and the SISMI were involved in the Nigergate affair. Then you backtracked when talking with Prosecutor Ionta the other day. Where does the truth lie?

(Martino) I reached a preliminary agreement with the Sunday Times for interview that was never conducted. We talked about this and that, including the SISMI, but only to say that my source on the uranium traffic was the same as the source of an Italian intelligence service aide. As far as I know, the SISMI has nothing to do with it. I never, and I repeat never, said that Forte Braschi (SISMI's Rome headquarters) was involved, and certainly not that the Italian Government was involved.

The truth is that I have been duped, manipulated, used. I would like to figure out why they chose me; I do have some idea, but without any evidence one gets nowhere.

(Chiocci) Whom were you duped, manipulated, used by?

(Martino) If I knew that, I would dash off to report it to the magistracy, to whom indeed I have already handed over important documents and revealed the names of all the players in this murky business.

(Chiocci) People have written things about your previous misadventures...

(Martino) I have read them. What lies! To mention but two of them, I was never thrown out either of the Carabinieri Corps or of the SID.

(Chiocci) I do not wish to harp on about it, but if you had nothing to hide, why have you yourself been in hiding for all this time?

(Martino) Because the game, for those who are familiar with certain mechanisms, had become too dangerous. I do not know whether, as some people have written, there were any secret agents of various nationalities hunting me down in order to eliminate me. I do not even know in whose interest it would really have been for me not to open my mouth. The fact remains that, thanks to my lawyer, Giuseppe Placidi, and to my contacts with the public prosecutor over my giving a statement, also that veiled propensity for suicide that had begun to oppress me has disappeared.

___________________

(Description of Source: Milan Il Giornale in Italian -- right-of-center daily owned by the Berlusconi family)

<hr /></blockquote>

If you read the wiki page that I posted, you will find there is good cause to suspect that the US were the source of the forgeries!

It doesnt matter. The US knew that they were forgeries and still used them. Thats it.

The Brits say they have other sources to confirm that Saddam was seeking yellowcake, but we know now that Saddam did not have a nuclear weapons program, so their sources must have been wrong too.
How much can we believe this guy?

Q

Fran Crimi
11-19-2005, 01:21 PM
LOL! That's right...believe the criminal.

Q, you're the best.

Fran

eg8r
11-20-2005, 12:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Well Fran, that's your opinion. My opinion is that she was outed by journalists at the behest of the Bush administration, <hr /></blockquote> Please let me chime in here...I beg to differ about your opinion, it sounds much more like your desperate prayer.

Carry on...

eg8r

pooltchr
11-20-2005, 03:26 PM
eg8r,
Thank you. I have to be careful what I say on here these days. I have been accused in a PM of stalking someone on here, so I shall refrain from adding to your comments.
Steve