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View Full Version : Installing tips and burnishing them



killerstroke
11-17-2005, 10:21 AM
I install tips and ferrules for local friends. When I get to the point of burnishing the tip, I have had a problem with getting the tips to finish flush with the ferrule and/or pad. This seems to be more of a problem with the softer tips. My thought is the heat generated from burnishing is making the tips expand. All work is done on a lathe. Any suggestions or thought as to what I am doing wrong. Thanks in advance.

Sid_Vicious
11-17-2005, 10:57 AM
I can't see how burnishing would cause such a thing, but isn't it simple to chuck it back up and re-trim the overhang after the burnish? I personally use a willard tool, which shapes the tip with a slight angle as it trims. I maybe would have seen the same thing myself if I were a lathe user, I dunno. Someone else here will surely post back about the lathe installs...sid

Cueless Joey
11-17-2005, 12:06 PM
http://lebowcustomcue.home.comcast.net/VIDEO.zip
Download that video.

killerstroke
11-19-2005, 11:54 AM
Thanks for the video. That is basically the way I do it except I use an actual tool bit to cut the tip and/or ferrule. My problem occurs when cutting the tip and how soft the leather is. I have to cut only a few thousands at a time. When questions like this are posted responses rarely come from the cue builders themselves, why is that?

Sid_Vicious
11-19-2005, 12:05 PM
Just my guess, builders are busy and...I don't mean to be condesending, priority driven to bigger things to reply to besides tip installations. The builder who did my new shafts tapered the Moori tips I had him install upon his trim, semi like the Willard does automatically. Maybe that's what your video showed you, I did not see it myself. One thing more that I and Spiderman do on tip installs is to coat the sidewalls with super glue after the burnish. You might consider that as well, or in place of the burnish on your softer tips. Just a thought...sid

Btw, We've dwindled down to almost no cue builders whom even come here to post anymore. The group has become rather aligned to rather pointed different sides, mostly due to politics, and IMO the strong pool-people have become no-shows of recent. sv

Cueless Joey
11-19-2005, 03:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote killerstroke:</font><hr> Thanks for the video. That is basically the way I do it except I use an actual tool bit to cut the tip and/or ferrule. My problem occurs when cutting the tip and how soft the leather is. I have to cut only a few thousands at a time. When questions like this are posted responses rarely come from the cue builders themselves, why is that? <hr /></blockquote>
Soft tips seem to expand when you trim them with a tool bit.
The tool bit grabs the leather before it trims it.
Hence, they expand. Elk Master is just about the worst at this.
I would use utility blade to trim it, carefully not scratching the ferrule. It's a skill.
Carbide tipped cutters aren't sharp enough for leather.
You're better off using a HHS toolbit you sharpen yourself.

stickman
11-19-2005, 08:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Soft tips seem to expand when you trim them with a tool bit.
The tool bit grabs the leather before it trims it.
Hence, they expand. Elk Master is just about the worst at this.
<hr /></blockquote>

My best luck with tips like Elk Master is using an extremely sharp tool bit, (I often hand sharpen), and turning very high RPM. The RPM makes a Big difference. I use 1200 - 1500 RPM or more with soft tips. They don't pull so bad that way.

ras314
11-20-2005, 12:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> My best luck with tips like Elk Master is using an extremely sharp tool bit, (I often hand sharpen), and turning very high RPM. The RPM makes a Big difference. I use 1200 - 1500 RPM or more with soft tips. They don't pull so bad that way. <hr /></blockquote>

I've had some luck with using the box cutter blades by hand on the elk masters. Helps to angle the blade sort of like scraping the leather. I just about refuse to use elk masters anyway because I've had too much trouble gluing them. If anybody can get them to stay on bar cues I'd sure like to hear from them.

I haven't noticed any tip mushroom or fuzz out from burnishing them on a lathe.

stickman
11-20-2005, 03:12 PM
The Elk Masters are my least favorite tips to install. I also had problems gluing them. What has worked for me was to sand the bottoms down much further than most other tips. After you sand past the blue sealer, continue past the pits on the backs. The backs should be white and smooth. It helped my gluing problems.

I use QuickTite super gel.

supergreenman
11-20-2005, 03:19 PM
what is your favorite adhesive? I use cyanoacrylite myself.

James

killerstroke
11-20-2005, 06:28 PM
First and foremost, Thanks for all the advice. I use a CA and never had a problem on any tip. After I sand the bottom of my tips I take a very small nail or anything sharp and poke small holes all over the bottom.

BLACKHEART
11-20-2005, 06:45 PM
Hi raz, I do about 600 tip repairs a year. MOST OF THEM ARE ELKMASTER. I don't know what you do differently than I, but I don't have any problem getting them to stick. I use a "Rapid Tip Sander"(I use 60 grit sand paper), to sand the cue tip &amp; ferrule flat. I sand the back of the tip with 80 grit, til it is a solid grey/white color. I glue the tips on using one of my Porper lathes or one of my Willards Tipper/Trimmer machine. I use Duro Super Glue Gel &amp; apply it right from the tube. I use the tube's tip to spread the glue til the whole tip appears wet. TOO MUCH GLUE WILL TAKE FOREVER TO DRY, so use only enough to make it look wet. I hold pressure on the 2 for 60-70 seconds. Remove the excess &amp; trim. I use the Willards machine to trim the edge, with NO PROBLEM. Hope this helps...JER
P.S. I have more trouble with soft &amp; mushy Elkmasters. I pre-test them by squeezeing them in a plyers 1st. If they are spongy I throw them away.

Harold Acosta
11-20-2005, 07:13 PM
Blackheart:

I've heard of people soaking the Elkmaster in milk, then pressing them with grip plyers until they dry.

What's up with that if you know?

killerstroke
11-20-2005, 07:24 PM
Personally I use bufflo (non-layered) tips. I press them in a vice and put amonia on them. They hold shape much better and make the hit slightly harder. Thanks for this tip by someone on this message board some time ago.

stickman
11-20-2005, 10:09 PM
I took a good bit of time and effort learning to do a good job of installing Elk Master tips. Still, I may give BLACKHEART's selection process a try. Even though I feel I do a good job, they are my least favorite, because they require more time and effort. More time sanding the backs, sharping the tool, and then I may start culling tips.

My favorite glue is QuickTite super gel and has been for several years.

BLACKHEART
11-20-2005, 11:17 PM
Hi Harold, I've heard of it but never tryed it. I wonder why they would use milk?...JER

killerstroke
11-21-2005, 08:27 AM
I've heard of using milk from Grady Matthews. Soak a tip for 24 hrs in the fridge. It helps moisten and soften up harder tips so they are easier to scuff.

supergreenman
11-21-2005, 08:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote killerstroke:</font><hr> I've heard of using milk from Grady Matthews. Soak a tip for 24 hrs in the fridge. It helps moisten and soften up harder tips so they are easier to scuff. <hr /></blockquote>

Do they stay softer?

killerstroke
11-21-2005, 09:39 AM
Don't know, never tried, I prefer a hard hit.

Sid_Vicious
11-21-2005, 11:22 AM
I have a video sent to me by Chris Cass where he exhibits his technique of soaking in milk and compressing the tip in a vice. Tell the truth, I've not watched the video yet, kinda hesitant. I miss that guy, sure do wish he was still here.

The method did make a really hard tip as I found out from the freebies CC sent me before the video was made. Jm2c...sid

ras314
11-21-2005, 11:52 AM
Jer,
About the only difference is I put a drop of Duro gel on the tip and then press it on, wiping off the excess that squirts out around the edges. And I use the lathe to trim and shape the tip after 5 to 10 min. I've compressed the elkmasters in a vice, some are considerably more spongy than others as you say, and are more difficult to trim. Next one I will try wetting the whole tip first.

Often the small tubes of Duro Gel super glue are nearly empty with a lot of air in the tube, I suspect some of it is no good to start with.

MrLucky
11-21-2005, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote killerstroke:</font><hr> I've heard of using milk from Grady Matthews. Soak a tip for 24 hrs in the fridge. It helps moisten and soften up harder tips so they are easier to scuff. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red"> What I want to know is how you get Grady to give you milk? /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif </font color>

killerstroke
11-21-2005, 02:07 PM
It was difficult, we had to play one pocket for it. It was skim milk and not sour, believe it or not!!!!

Cueless Joey
11-21-2005, 03:42 PM
Milk dud Elkmaster or Blue Diamond tip.
That's what they call them.
Robinson soaks and compresses tips as well.