PDA

View Full Version : 8-Ball Table Issue



Bassn7
11-18-2005, 12:05 PM
Just my opinion, 9 foot tables are made for 9-ball, straight pool and one pocket. The strategic nature of 8-ball is best played on a 7 foot bar box. Any larger and the game becomes a run out game like 9-ball. 8-ball on a bar table is the greatest test of Chess on felt. Watching the Sigel-Jones match proved my point. There was nothing to learn about the strategy of 8-ball. Just run out or not. Top notch bar table 8-ball players manipulate moves no other game uses.

supergreenman
11-18-2005, 12:08 PM
~cough cough cough bs cough cough cough

9 foot or bar table a pro will run it out 90+% of the time.

randyg
11-18-2005, 12:26 PM
On a Bar Table I would believe that a pro's win percentage may be at about 90%. I believe that his run-out percentage would be about 60%....Just my humble opinion.....SPF-randyg

Bassn7
11-18-2005, 01:20 PM
Anyone running 9 out of 10 racks on a bar table, on a regular basis, not happening. Too many clusters and weird things happening on a smaller playing field. The 60% I can agree with. Winning 90% of the time is a different thing all together.

supergreenman
11-18-2005, 01:21 PM
You might be right Randy, I was just going with my limited experience of watching pros play on bar boxes. I have a video of Corey Duel and Neils Fiegn (sp) playing 8 ball on a bar box and there were only a 3 maybe 4 at the most of games that weren't won by ERO.

SpiderMan
11-18-2005, 02:20 PM
You may be right. I primarily play 8-ball, and my runout percentage is highest on 8-foot tables. They seem to be located at the minimum-difficulty point for 8-ball; a compromise between reduced clutter/clusters on the nines and easy shotmaking on the bar boxes.

SpiderMan

mworkman
11-19-2005, 06:03 AM
I could maybe see 60%, but I think it is a little lower. For one thing, first you have to make a ball on the break and that in and of it self happens less then 90%. Let's say you can make a ball 3/4 of the time on the break and you could run out 3/4 of those games. That would be about 56%. Who is the best 8-ball bar box player out there? Let's ask him...

randyg
11-19-2005, 07:15 AM
Well less than 90%.

I did interview three National Eightball Champions (amateur) a few years back. They felt that if they made a ball on the bar table break 60% of the time (which may be high for most, but these are champions)that they could control the table to a win. Running out was something that just "happens", controlling the table is the goal.

From that interview in which I asked them 5 questions, I dynamically changed the way I look at an 8-Ball rack.....SPF-randyg

StormHotRod300
11-20-2005, 12:34 AM
I happen to agree that, when playing on a 7ft, if a pro makes a ball, he should run out atleast 60% of the time.

And the reasons for not being out is, a ball locked up, and not being able to break it out, or one of those weird rolls, or happenings.

Now i seriously doubt Pro's run out in 8ball on a bar box, 90% of the time. the reason being?

In my 8ball league, i see guys who are SL7's in 8ball and SL 9's in 9ball, and even they dont break n run at anything close to 40%. And saying these guys are SL 7's and 9's probably doesnt do them justice. They are guys who are probably rated A or AA anywhere they go.

I just think there is too many variables that can happen in 8ball. expecially with clusters, and trying to break them out.

dave

Cornerman
11-20-2005, 06:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> Anyone running 9 out of 10 racks on a bar table, on a regular basis, not happening. Too many clusters and weird things happening on a smaller playing field. The 60% I can agree with. Winning 90% of the time is a different thing all together. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't think you've seen enough top level bar table action. And I'm dead serious, regardless of your "20 year league veteran" thing.

The BCA Nationals is a good proof of this. The Masters and the Grand Masters is simply a exhibition of runout after runout after runout. The winner is always the guy who sees a ball first. Breaking and making a ball is the whole game.

I watched the GrandMasters semis where the two players broke and ran 7 racks in a row while I was watching. This is with alternating breaks. And no, this was not a one time, isolated incident. 8-ball on a bar table is a very simple game to great players.

Even in my bar table tournaments, the one who wins is the one who runs out the most. Never has it been different. No chess. More like bowling.

Fred

cheesemouse
11-20-2005, 09:03 AM
Barbox 8-ball can be tough with the clutter but the better players are looking to run them anyway, even with tough layouts. On the 9-footers I think the pro's will string lots of racks if it is winner breaks.
We don't have long to wait before some of the questions will be answered with the finish of this IPT event and then the regular events to follow during next year. It will be interesting to follow the results. I tend to fall on the side of a high % of runouts following a successful break and a very high % of wins by the player who establishes first. If they track the average total # of innings per match divide by # of games I would think the # would be less than three for sure, it could be less than two.
I think 8-ball at this level is a runout, freewheeling game. The thinking being that if you only get 7/8's of the way there your toast...LOL

Cane
11-20-2005, 10:07 AM
Hey, Spidey! Welcome back. Good to see you posting again.

I'll get on here and post on the ERO issue as soon as I do a little research! I've learned better than to come to a gunfight unarmed! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Later,
Bob

Snapshot9
11-20-2005, 10:08 AM
This is why I think the Pros need to compete with
Rotation 8 ball, or Dakota 8 ball as I call it. Far far
fewer run outs, is more challenging (as it should be for Pros), and takes more skill to play really well.
I practice 8 ball with this by myself. It will help your
normal 8 and 9 ball game tremendously.

Bassn7
11-20-2005, 10:28 AM
I've seen strings of racks myself, 8 in a row once with APA rules, much tougher than BCA where the table is open if you sink any ball. My point is this . . . the smaller the table for 8-ball, the tougher and more precise the shooter must be to get out. I would prefer to see Pro 8-ball played on a bar box. National 8-ball tournaments are played on bar tables, not 9 footers, so don't show us 9 foot action. I like to learn when watching TV. Run out 8-ball on a 9 footer doesn't apply much to bar table strategy.

Scott Lee
11-20-2005, 10:39 AM
I agree with you, and FWIW, the average pro's break percentage is only around 40%, when you factor in overall length of time playing. It may be higher or lower on a given day, but it is nowhere near the 75-90 percentages mentioned in posts above.

Scott Lee

randyg
11-20-2005, 02:58 PM
BASSN7: Pardon me. APA rules tougher than BCA. I have only one word....SLOP.....SPF-randyg

rackem
11-20-2005, 05:32 PM
what's APA stands for? Any Pocket Anytime

Cane
11-20-2005, 05:34 PM
BASSN7

I absolutely CANNOT agree that APA is tougher than BCA. I sat in and watched a night of APA league in NW Arkansas recently, and was astounded that the only ball that had to be called was the 8 ball. Anything else that went in, as long as it was your suit, was considered a "good shot" and several times, I heard players hooting and cheering an obviously missed shot that went 2 or 3 cushions in the wrong corner... OH WAIT! That's right!!! There ISN'T a wrong corner, because you don't have to call the shot!!! Give me BCA rules any day. I see enough balls getting s#!t in playing 9 Ball... at least with BCA 8-Ball, if a guy beats you in a short race, he put the balls in the pocket he intended.

Bob

Bassn7
11-21-2005, 12:12 AM
SLOP shots rarely run out a table. But getting to shoot any ball after the break, if you make a ball, DOUBLES the chances of running the rack. Comments?

Cane
11-21-2005, 01:39 AM
Do you really think it doubles the chances of a runout to NOT be penalized for making a ball on the break (paraphrasing Kim Davenports comments on the IPT 8-Ball rules)? I might agree that it slightly increases the chances of a runout, but DOUBLE THEM? No way!!!

Let me tell you why I say this. I played in two 20 week seasons last year, Monday night and Tuesday night. When I saw your request or challenge for comments, I went downstairs and got the final tally sheets out of my notebook. Monday night was Arkansas Bar Association. You take what you make on the break, and only have choice if you make balls of each suit. In 20 weeks, I had 19 ERO's, #2 in the league. #1 in the league was my teammate Darryl with 23 ERO's. The Tuesday night was BCA Rules, open after the break. Also 20 weeks... I had 22 ERO's, #1 in the league. 3 more ERO's in a 20 week period tells me that there is not a GREAT advantage to being able to choose suit after the break. And actually, Darryl had one MORE ERO on the "take what you make" league than I did for top ERO's on the BCA Rules league. I look at those numbers and just can't see any appreciable difference. Certainly not any difference that would make anyone think that BCA 8-Ball is easier because it's open after the break. BTW, Darryl and I got banned from that particular Tuesday Night League and are playing in a different one now. I guess they'll keep banning people until the L.O.'s team can win!

Back on the subject... Being able to slop in a ball any time in any pocket and keep on shooting! Now that, to me, greatly increases the chance of a runout (both of the leagues I played in were Call Pocket, no slop). There have been times when I've shot a ball to a pocket very hard, rattled it and it get spit out and go in another pocket. Like a ball shot hard into a corner, doubling out and going into the other corner, (great shot for one pocket, sucks in 8-Ball!) or a side pocket shot hitting the corner of the facing (I didn't know if it was P.U. to say Tit on the board, so that sounded better, didn't it?)and going down in the corner instead... In APA, you keep on shooting. In BCA, your inning is OVER and it's the other guys turn at the table. Now, to me, that gives your OPPONENT the better chance of running out than it does you. Considering this, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that the slight advantage (if any advantage at all) of "open after the break" is a greater one than being able to keep on shooting after you've actually MISSED the shot you intended.

The only time I play that way is when I'm playing my girlfriend, Billie. She gets any ball that falls, and I have to call my shots. Of course, she also gets two misses every inning and ball in hand when I miss, but I only do that because she'd never win if she had to call her shots and didn't get the two miss and BIH. Bless her heart, she just can't shoot pool, and I learned REALLY fast, DON'T TRY TO TEACH SOMEONE YOU SLEEP WITH!!! Causes big trouble! One of these days, I'll turn her over to RandyG for a few days and she'll learn to play the game well enough to play it correctly. I'll still give her the two misses for a few years, but... I'm gonna make her call her shots! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

When I match up at 8-Ball, it's World Standardized Rules (BCA Rules), ALL THE WAY! I will NEVER play slop shot pool for money, whether it's matchups or tournaments.

I'm not running down the APA or their league system. I just prefer BCA rules. I do NOT like slop pool, or sloppily played pool.

Later,
Bob

eg8r
11-21-2005, 07:29 AM
Hey Spiderman,

Sorry about missing you while you were here in town. I have been sick since the Thursday I talked to Chopstick on the phone. I will have to catch you next time you are in town.

eg8r

supergreenman
11-21-2005, 08:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> BASSN7: Pardon me. APA rules tougher than BCA. I have only one word....SLOP.....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

We have CPA up here in canada, I assume it's the same as APA in the States. Up here it's considered a beginners league designed to get people into playing pool.

I prefer BCA rules anytime. Nothing would make my blood boil more than being beaten by someone who won by fluking in several balls then managing to make the 8 in the right pocket.

James

Rich R.
11-21-2005, 09:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>Pardon me. APA rules tougher than BCA. I have only one word....SLOP.....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> I sat in and watched a night of APA league in NW Arkansas recently, and was astounded that the only ball that had to be called was the 8 ball. <hr /></blockquote>
Aren't you guys being just a little hard on the APA players.
This is a discussion about running racks of 8 ball. Even in the APA, slop is not a huge factor, with the players who are capable of running a rack.

Yes, slop happens occasionally, even by the best players in the APA, but it is not a big deal. If you only consider the upper SL players, I don't think I have seen more than a few balls slopped in, within the last year.

To get back on topic, concerning the choice of groups after the break, I like the BCA rule better, because of the choice it gives you. However, when playing in the APA, we have to play by APA rules.

Bassn7
11-21-2005, 10:19 AM
Although I've only seen 20 years worth of "APA" matches, I have to believe that LESS than 1% of all matches played are won due to a slop shot. Being that low, it's not even a factor. (I can only remember being beat by slop twice in 20 years.)

Deeman3
11-21-2005, 12:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> Although I've only seen 20 years worth of "APA" matches, I have to believe that LESS than 1% of all matches played are won due to a slop shot. Being that low, it's not even a factor. (I can only remember being beat by slop twice in 20 years.) <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Bass:

You must play in a considerably different APA league than most of us. I have seen dozens of people with no shot, whack away at the balls and slop in a ball to continue shooting. I think it's rather common, not in the 1 percent bracket as you say. </font color>

Deeman

Cornerman
11-21-2005, 01:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote StormHotRod300:</font><hr> In my 8ball league, i see guys who are SL7's in 8ball and SL 9's in 9ball, and even they dont break n run at anything close to 40%. And saying these guys are SL 7's and 9's probably doesnt do them justice. They are guys who are probably rated A or AA anywhere they go. <hr /></blockquote>I don't know about anyone else, but my B&amp;R percentage always climbs during tournaments. Mostly, I think in league nights, you only have so many games to get going. But, say, in a tournament like the Nationals, you get to warm up on the equipment for as long as you like. Even for a scrub like me, my B&amp;R's during the league night is very low (although I had 13 in one APA session, once, it's usually under 5), but climbs to 25% in a tournament like the Nationals.If the equipment is playing well, you'll see more B&amp;R's, as well.

With bar tables, the professionals would B&amp;R everything in sight, especially if the equipment is any decent. Is it 90%? No, but it's way up there. Crazy high. Anyone with any kind of National bar table 8-ball experience wouldn't have any reason to rebutt this.

Fred

Bassn7
11-21-2005, 01:59 PM
I agree with you, "slopped" balls are common. Having a direct effect on the outcome of the entire match because of that exact shot, quite rare. (Especially at the 6 and 7 level.)

Eric.
11-21-2005, 03:37 PM
I think that "slop" would have a bigger effect on the outcome of a match with the higher level players. With the higher level players, a missed shot that gets slopped into another pocket can mean that the higher level player gets another shot that he/she didn't deserve. In terms of reality, that means taht the 7 will probably run out the rack that he/she didn't deserve, and possibly break and run the next one. Arguably, that one slopped shot could have cost 1 1/2 racks, where with a lesser skilled player, the slopped ball probably won't translate into an immediate win.


Eric

Deeman3
11-21-2005, 03:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> I agree with you, "slopped" balls are common. Having a direct effect on the outcome of the entire match because of that exact shot, quite rare. (Especially at the 6 and 7 level.) <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> If I remember right (it's been a couple of years) I have to make 81 balls or so and the lowest level has to make about 11. Now, give a slop shot here and there in a match where I have to essentually run out or duck up to 81 or 91 or whatever, and pretty soon I have a almost non-shooter beating me. I just remember having a much easier time with 7, 8 and 9's than with 2 and 3's. I may be wrong but that's the way I remember it. </font color>

Deeman
hated playing two's....

Cane
11-21-2005, 04:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> Aren't you guys being just a little hard on the APA players.
This is a discussion about running racks of 8 ball. <hr /></blockquote>

Rich, you're right. I think we kind of hijacked the original intent of this thread. And, my apologies if I insulted any APA players out there. That was not my intent.

As for tables and 8-Ball. I prefer 8-Ball on a bar box over a 9' table. Reason, more challenging with the smaller playing surface and more compact crowds of balls. I like the big tables for other games, bank pool, 9-Ball, etc., but don't really enjoy playing 8-Ball as much on an 8' or 9' table as I do on a bar box.

Later,
Bob

Bassn7
11-21-2005, 04:44 PM
Excellent analysis, you're right. At the higher level it would make a greater change to the outcome. But it also happens fewer times as well at those skill levels. So it still happens very few times. So what do you think . . . do slop run-outs happen more often, or run-outs do to BCA rules allowing to choose stripes when you made a solid? I think more run outs do to BCA rules.

mworkman
12-01-2005, 08:11 AM
Hmmm.. I just looked up the stats for the IPT tourny day 1. There was a total of 918 games played. There was 239 Break and Runs. That is a total of 26%. Now, that does not factor in if someone comes up dry on the break and the 2nd player then runs out. But it does mean that the breaking player has only a 26% chance of winning the game outright on his first turn. Now, If they were playing on 7' tables, I dont think it would be much higher. I would like to know also if such stats are available as to what percent of the time a ball is made on the break. With the slow nap cloth they are using, maybe they are only making a ball on the break 60% of the time?

dr_dave
12-01-2005, 08:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> Hmmm.. I just looked up the stats for the IPT tourny day 1. There was a total of 918 games played. There was 239 Break and Runs. That is a total of 26%. Now, that does not factor in if someone comes up dry on the break and the 2nd player then runs out. But it does mean that the breaking player has only a 26% chance of winning the game outright on his first turn. Now, If they were playing on 7' tables, I dont think it would be much higher. I would like to know also if such stats are available as to what percent of the time a ball is made on the break. With the slow nap cloth they are using, maybe they are only making a ball on the break 60% of the time? <hr /></blockquote>
Based on Scott Lee's estimate (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=210609&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) that a pro makes a ball on the break only about 40% of the time and the IPT 26% break and run percentage, it makes me wonder if the statistics would prove that it is better (i.e., you would win more often) if your opponent breaks first. This goes against all intuitive sense for me, but I would be very interested to see some hard data (and not just tons of "anecdotal" evidence). Does the IPT or Accustats or anybody else have hard data on:

- pro-breaker win percentage on different table sizes and conditions (e.g., slow vs. fast cloth).

- pro-non-breaker 1st-inning run percentage.

These would be very interesting numbers to see. Anybody out there have some data on this?

Regards,
Dave

Cornerman
12-01-2005, 09:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> Hmmm.. I just looked up the stats for the IPT tourny day 1. There was a total of 918 games played. There was 239 Break and Runs. That is a total of 26%. Now, that does not factor in if someone comes up dry on the break and the 2nd player then runs out. But it does mean that the breaking player has only a 26% chance of winning the game outright on his first turn. <hr /></blockquote>
The stats are a little misleading in that the first couple of rounds, the B&amp;R percentage was much lower. Once people started figuring out breaks, etc., the final numbers were higher.

Taking the women out of the equation, the B&amp;R percentage was is in the mid 30%.

Fred

Scott Lee
12-01-2005, 10:03 AM
dr_dave...Just to clarify things, I stated the "average" pro's break percentage, pocketing a ball, playing 8-ball, is only 40% over time. This is one specific tournament, and if you take each pros stats, some will be higher, and some lower, for this small set of data. These are also what I would consider, for the most part, elite pros, as opposed to average pros. I would expect that the break percentage could improve somewhat, due to that. When it's all said and done, someone will be able to break down all the data, and come up with relevant statistics for each player in this event.

Scott Lee

dr_dave
12-01-2005, 10:09 AM
Scott,

Thanks for the clarification. Do you or others know if and when the IPT stats data will be available (e.g., will it be posted on the IPT website (http://www.internationalpooltour.com/))?

Thanks,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> dr_dave...Just to clarify things, I stated the "average" pro's break percentage, pocketing a ball, playing 8-ball, is only 40% over time. This is one specific tournament, and if you take each pros stats, some will be higher, and some lower, for this small set of data. These are also what I would consider, for the most part, elite pros, as opposed to average pros. I would expect that the break percentage could improve somewhat, due to that. When it's all said and done, someone will be able to break down all the data, and come up with relevant statistics for each player in this event.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>