PDA

View Full Version : He also had a dream



wolfdancer
11-22-2005, 06:44 PM
web page (http://home.att.net/~jrhsc/jfk.html)
with audio

Gayle in MD
11-23-2005, 10:54 PM
"Let us never negotiate out of fear, but let us never fear to negotiate."

JFK.

Thanks so much for this post. It is incredible how pertinent these quotations are to our present circumstances.
JFK was a great man, a man of great awareness, and genuine empathy for his fellow man.

Thanks again, this was a pleasure.

Gayle in Md.

Qtec
11-24-2005, 12:05 AM
[ QUOTE ]
"I look forward to a great future for America,
a future in which our country will match its
military strength with our moral restraint,
its wealth with our wisdom, its power with our
purpose. . . . And I look forward to an America
which commands respect throughout the world not
only for its strength but for its
civilization as well."
<hr /></blockquote>

GW should read this.

Q

Qtec
11-24-2005, 12:24 AM
JFK was obviously too much of a threat to the establishment, thats why he had to go. I cant think why anyone else would want to kill him.
People who are set on assasinating politicians or celebrities always do it up close. Bobby K, Reagan, John Lennon, Gahndi, the Pope, were all done up close! Except of course JFKs killing!
LHO could have stood on the street at the corner of the Book Depositary, waited for the car to slow down as it rounded the corner, stepped up to the car with a pistol and fired at JFK at point blank range.
What if LHO had missed? He would never have got another chance.
The official version doesnt make sense to me.

Q

wolfdancer
11-24-2005, 03:48 PM
Gayle, and thanks to you and Q for adding to the thread. I've always wondered, if he had lived, if he had been reelected...

Gayle in MD
11-25-2005, 01:01 AM
There is no question in my mind that he would have been re-
elected. He had this country in the palm of his hand. We would have forgiven him anything, because he would have been the first one to acknowledge his shortcoming, unlike the dufus we have to put up with these days. He wouldn't have the class or the humility to own up to amything. I fully expect, that when the reality of a civil war in Iraq comes about, and it will, that the right will somehow put forth the idea that the Democrats caused the civil war, because only the Democrats seem to have enough sense to understand the stupidity of the Bush philosophy. How totally unrealistic of him to think that he can go over there and force feed those people a democracy at the end of a gun barrel. It can go no other way, than to end up in civil war, and the idea that our youth is dying for the premise that if we fight them in Iraq, we will somehow be safer here, is the dumbest philosophy I have heard so far in my life.

Only a Bush, could come up with such a false premise, and still have the arrogance to show his face in public.

Sorry, but GWB is certainly, no John Kennedy.

Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
11-25-2005, 12:45 PM
Gayle, I have no doubt that he would have had a second term...it is the course of the VietNam war, Civil Rights, Education, etc...that I think he would have changed, for the better.
GWB,"the War President"... doesn't deserve being mentioned in the same post.

Fran Crimi
11-25-2005, 05:56 PM
Kennedy wasn't a public war monger. He just liked to overthrow governments 'secretly.' His main concern with the Bay of Pigs invasion was not the invasion itself, but rather how we were going to get away with denying responsibility. Schlessinger warned him that deniablity was not going to be an option and he should seriously consider the consequenses. Kennedy ignored Schlessinger's memo warning and succeeded in embarassing himself, the office of the Presidency and the country in the aftermath.

Not only that, but his actions nearly caused WWIII, namely, the Cuban Missle Crisis, which, according to Kruschev's son, was a direct result of the Bay of Pigs invasion. Cuba became nervous about any future attacks by the U.S. and sought out help from Russia. Kruschev was only too happy to comply by setting up missles in Cuba.

Yes, Kennedy managed to negotiate his way out of it, however, it was his fault in the first place, AND---we were damn lucky it was Kruschev and not someone else. In 1964 Kruschev was thrown out of office on the basis that he was "too soft."

Plus, what about Kennedy's various serious illnesses? Chronic digestive problems, Addison's disease and crippling back issues. He was taking 8 medications a day, from anphetimines to sleeping pills, all drugs we would consider today as mind-altering.

Fran

wolfdancer
11-25-2005, 06:18 PM
Fran, I've read different about the Bay of Pigs.....but agree with the report on his medications.And remember, Bobby was always there to counsel him.I don't think Robert was also popping pills.
I'll always admire the man, as I'm sure you will GWB..
I'd still vote for my pill popping President...anyday, over George Bush

Fran Crimi
11-26-2005, 09:29 AM
There are several different versions flying around about the Bay of Pigs. I pieced together my version mostly by reading through White House declassified documents. Did the CIA sell him out? Did the Cuban troops sell him out? Maybe, but it still doesn't change the fact that he wanted to overthrow a government that hadn't attacked the U.S.

Bobby? Bobby was tough as nails. He was pro Viet Nam War all through that presidency. He was a white-bred snob and hard to get along with and hard to reason with. It wasn't until after JFK's assasination that his attitude started to change.

The other important issue about JFK taking all those meds was that was that the illnesses and mediacations left him incapacitated for long periods of time each day. He had to take several naps during the day where he couldn't be disturbed.

Fran

HiPockets
12-01-2005, 06:58 PM
Reading this crapola about JFK and RFK 100 years from now one would think they were saints. I am convinced the mod killed JFK because of RFK's going after organized crime after the mob delivered the votes in Cook County, Illinois to elect JFK. The double cross that got one if not both of them killed. Now how smart is that. In other words don't defecate in your mess kit.

Gayle in MD
12-01-2005, 09:47 PM
Fran,
IIRC, Kennedy inherited the Bay of Pigs plan, it was already in place when he took office. Still he stepped right up to the plate, and took the heat for the failure.

As for the Cuban Missile Crises, I don't think you can compare huge missiles aimed at us from 90 miles off our coast, to going to war over contradictory intelligence over WMD's. We had no proof of WMD's in Iraq, none. We had ariel photos of Missiles pointed at us from Cuba. Anyway, Castro and Kennedy were in the process of secret negotiations for friendly relations between Cuba and the U.S. when Kennedy was killed.

If you ever have the opportunity to see "The Fog Of War" it is a really great and accurate portrayal of events during that time. McNamara is interviewed throughout, as an older man, looking back, and weighing the events from hind sight. It is a very hair raising account, from Hiroshima, through Vietnam, it's all in there.

I was about seventeen at that time, and remember seeing the convoys of troops and weapons on 301 heading to Florida. It was pretty scary, and I thought we were done for. McNamara said, in the documentary, that Kennedy's decision to ignore Kruschev's first letter, and answer only the second, milder one, was a diplomatic decision which saved us from nuclear war. I had a big argument about that with Highsea on here. I said I would take McNamara's opinion on the subject, since he was there at the time, lol. IIRC, it was Bobby's idea.

The Kennedy address to the Nation at the time of the Cuban Missile Crises was outstanding. He was a great communicator, and loved around the world. He gave his life in service to this country, along with his brothers Joe, and Bobby, and his sister, Kit. Unfortunately, we'll never know what more he would have accomplished had he lived out his life. I think he would have done great things for this country. Just my opinion.

Gayle in Md.

Fran Crimi
12-02-2005, 06:20 AM
Gayle, are you saying that Kennedy didn't have the power to stop the Bay of Pigs operation? He had the power and ability to shut it down right up until the last minute. Once his administration took office, it became his plan and his decision, which he approved three months into office. White House documents indeed show that he was still trying to decide whether or not to go ahead with the operation just weeks before. If it was beyond his control, why was he seeking opinions from his administration?

There were no nuclear warheads sitting in Cuba when Kennedy tried to overthrow the government. The nuclear warheads were placed there as a direct result of Kennedy's failed attempt to overthrow the government. Castro asked the Soviets for help and they were only too happy to comply. Kennedy's recklessness nearly got us all blown to bits.

He's hailed as a hero for getting us out of the Cuban Missle Crisis when he was the one who got us there in the first place. All he did was undo his own mess.

Fran

Gayle in MD
12-02-2005, 06:40 AM
Well Fran, you know how much I like and respect you, but I beg to differ with you on your facts. I remember looking all this up during a disagreement with HC on here some time back, and the information I read, and saw in a documentary called The Fog Of War narrated by Robert McNamara, gave totally different information than what you are saying. Also, there were arial photos shown to the American public at the time, and there were huge warheads in Cuba, as I recall. Kennedy's goal, at that time, was certainly to avoid war, which he managed to do. There had also been suggestions at the time to drop a stun on a Solviet Nuclear Submarine as a warning, which he refused to do.

Gayle in Md.....Fran, if you like, I think I made a copy of that Documentary, and could send you a copy.

Fran Crimi
12-02-2005, 07:21 AM
I saw The Fog of War, Gayle, and I don't remember McNamara saying anything about nuclear warheads being in Cuba prior to the Bay of Pigs invasion. The arial photos you described that were shown to the public were what triggered the Cuban Missile Crisis, not the Bay of Pigs invasion.

There were three main reasons for the Bay of Pigs invasion: 1) Cuba was a Communist Country and Castro was getting more and more friendly with the Soviets. 2) Kennedy was afraid that Castro would start to block our ships carrying goods from South America, 3) Of a lesser nature, they wanted to send a warning message to the Soviets for shooting down one of our planes over the Soviet Union. The plan was to make them wonder if it was us, but not know for sure.

Fran

Fran Crimi
12-02-2005, 07:39 AM
I agree. The mafia understands warfare, but to them, betrayal is the worst offense of all. Then you have the FBI with Hoover, who in all the years he held his position, never once went after the mob...obviously because of his own affilliation with them. Then you have the CIA who never forgave Kennedy for not sending them backup when things started going bad at the Bay of Pigs.

And let's not foget Castro, who was dodging assasination attempts all over the place.

And LBJ, who hated the Kennedy's with a passion. And Dulles, who ran the Bay of Pigs operation, who was close friends with LBJ, who felt betrayed by Kennedy.

Put them all together, and you have November 22nd.

Fran

Gayle in MD
12-02-2005, 07:42 AM
Fran,
I didn't say they were there prior to the Bay Of Pigs affair.

Kennedy did what he did because Cuba is ninety miles off our coast, and as you state, friendly with Russia, and Russia had shot down one of our planes. All pretty good reasons to take some action, and take a stand, IMO, unlike occupying a country on information that was controversial from the start, much of it coming from someone who was a known liar, and for an attack on our own soil, by someone else entirely, from a totally different country, with no proven ties to Iraq or SH, and in fact with solid information that SH hated bL. I didn't say that BOP triggered the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Gayle in Md.

Fran Crimi
12-02-2005, 07:48 AM
But Gayle, the whole point I was trying to make was that the Bay of Pigs invasion triggered the missiles being placed in Cuba. How do you substantiate the Bay of Pigs invasion? You can't just say that Kennedy inherited it. He didn't. He inherited a plan that he carried out. He had the power and ability to stop it at anytime. Those missiles were planted there because Castro feared another attempt to overthrow his government after the Bay of Pigs.

The Cuban Missile situation was Kennedy's fault in the first place.

Fran

Gayle in MD
12-02-2005, 07:54 AM
Fran, you have one opinion, and I have another. Cuba and Russia were joined at the hip long before the Bay Of Pigs, hence the plan being in place in the first place. The fact that Cuba was ninety miles off our shore, and Castro was in bed with Russia, which had nuclear weapons, was what triggered both incidents, IMO.

Gayle in Md.

Fran Crimi
12-02-2005, 08:05 AM
Are you saying it's okay to invade a country that didn't attack us?

Fran

wolfdancer
12-02-2005, 08:54 AM
No, not unless we suspect them of having WMDs ....or if we are
directed to do so by the Almighty,Alito,Al Sharpton, or Al Gore

Fran Crimi
12-02-2005, 09:16 AM
Not according to JFK. According to him, it was okay to try to overthrow the Cuban government strictly because of their affilliation with the Soviets. He attacked them because he thought they were weak, not because he thought they were strong. He attacked them out of fear, not out of defense. If he thought the resistance would be as strong as it was, he wouldn't have gone through with the plan. He was counting on their weakness.

Schlessinger laid it out in a brilliant memo to Kennedy, showing him how it was clearly a no-win situation to go ahead with the attack. Win or lose, the Soviets would take action, and that's exactly what they did.

Why can't you guys just admit that Kennedy made a big blunder that nearly cost us our lives? Why compare him with the present administration, or any administration, for that matter? Just look at the situation in itself.

Fran

wolfdancer
12-02-2005, 10:24 AM
I'm not the one comparing him with the present admin.
And there really is no comparision...those were different times...we feared world wide growth of communism/ the Domino theory/ etc.....and here they were with a beachhead 90 miles from our shore. Electronic listening devices/jamming devices/germ warfare/sabateurs/terrorists/ even missiles, before the fact (maybe we had some hint from our flawed CIA?)...there were probably many fears. remember....the plan was formulated during the Eisenhower admin,and based on CIA data, was that after the initial invasion....the Cuban people would join the attack force, the Army and police forces would throw in with them.
It was only after that plan failed....that JFK decided AGAINST an American Forces invasion/Air support.

[ QUOTE ]
Richard M. Nixon proposed it | Dwight D. Eisenhower planned it | Robert F. Kennedy championed it | John F. Kennedy approved it | The CIA carried it out | 1,197 invaders were captured | 200 of them had been soldiers in Batista's army (14 of those were wanted for murder in Cuba) | One CIA soldier fired the first shot | A volunteer teacher was the first Cuban casualty | 4 American pilots and over 100 Cuban invaders were killed in battle | 1,400 Cuban invaders felt betrayed by their sponsor | One U.S. senator lied to the United Nations | One U.S. president was embarrassed in front of the world <hr /></blockquote>
web page (http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/baypigs/pigs.htm)

So, in my thinking, JFK in the end, did not invade Cuba.
You can probably cite reports to refute this.
It's in the past though...whatever sins JFK committed have nothing to do with the present.....if you want to say, he was as bad as our leader....I'll concede that.
We have invaded Iraq though, they didn't attack us...we killed 30k civilians, destroyed roads, power plants, water and sewerage systems, hospitals, etc.people's homes, jobs,
are gone....and we think all this will be solved at their voting booths?
Look no further then N. O. after Katrina, to understand what occurs when there is a sudden interruption of any law enforcement.
Sorry, but I just don't see the connection between the two Presidents, nor the two invasions.
Fact is...Cuba and Castro are still there...and we should try to normalise relations with them. JFK may have paid with his life for his part in the plan to invade Cuba....very few other Americans did....end of story.
Any discussion should be focused directly on this President and on our invasion of Iraq....Is he a good leader for America....and was this invasion the right thing to do?
I have my own beliefs, and strongly disbelieve this ultra right wing faction of the Republican party....that one has to be a left wing, un American liberal, to oppose any of the policies of GWB.....
The great freedom that we still have is the right to dissent....if Jethro follows his brother into the White House, and lasts 8 years...we may lose that right...we'll fit into the "suspected terrorists" provisions of the Patriot Act.....and removed from society until we learn to love big brother, right after the lobotomy and chip implant.
JFK is still remembered fondly and admired by many people, despite his flaws
“The good that men do lives after them, The evil is oft interréd with their bones.” (Shakespeare had it wrong)
I think few will hold GWB up to this acclaim.

HiPockets
12-04-2005, 01:32 PM
Quote:

"Fact is...Cuba and Castro are still there...and we should try to normalise relations with them."
______________

My thoughts exactly. One reason we do not is the number of cubans in Miami but my comment to them is "get over it". The only other reason is the ego of our government. Bush has demonstrated in this administration the arrogance of politics with his invasion and continuing attitude towards Iraq. Cuba is no worse when it comes to human rights than many of the other counties that we maintain diplomatic relationships. Cuba is the little country that could and did intimidate the U.S. with the aid and assistance of Russia. Shame on us.

Fran Crimi
12-04-2005, 01:45 PM
Again, why can't you guys post about the Kennedy administration without bringing up what's wrong with Bush administration? Why are the two linked for you?

All my posts about JFK are with regard to the era in which he governed. You can't compare eras. Kennedy made a big blunder in his era that could have cost us all our lives.

Those missiles were not placed in Cuba until after the Bay of Pigs fiasco. What does that have to do with George Bush???

Fran

Gayle in MD
12-04-2005, 03:56 PM
Fran,
They were there before the Cuban Missile crises though....and anyway, Castro and Kennedy were in communication with one another and working to normalize relations. Whatever went wrong with the Bay Of Pigs, Kennedy was a man about it, and took the blame. That is one reason why people admired him, and he won over many who didn't care for him when he took responsibility. You don't want me to post all the lies we've heard from Bush, and his mis-statements I'm sure, because it's a long long list, and sometimes even Bush saying one thing, and Rumsfeld or Cheney saying the oposite on the same damn day!

No matter what anyone's opinion of Kennedy as a President, he was loved by people all over the world. He was a big plus as a president as far as the world opinion of our country. He only had 1,000 days, and gave his life in service to our country. Had hd lived, I think he would have served us well.

Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
12-04-2005, 05:41 PM
Geez, I thought I had explained my views on the JFK thing...and didn't even bring up GWB until the last paragraph...and then only to say that there is no comparision, different times/different situations???
Maybe you read something different into it....I'm not
the best at writing clearly....

Fran Crimi
12-04-2005, 08:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Fran,
They were there before the Cuban Missile crises though.... <font color="blue">Of course the missles were there before the Cuban Missle Crisis...they're what CAUSED the Cuban Missile crisis. </font color> and anyway, Castro and Kennedy were in communication with one another and working to normalize relations. <font color="blue"> Yes, they were in communication. Does that make everything alright? </font color> Whatever went wrong with the Bay Of Pigs, Kennedy was a man about it, and took the blame. <font color="blue"> Whatever went wrong? He made the wrong choice. That's what went wrong. </font color> That is one reason why people admired him, <font color="blue"> I thought it was because he was good-looking. </font color> and he won over many who didn't care for him when he took responsibility. <font color="blue"> He did? Everyone said, it's okay to have almost blown us up? We forgive you? </font color> You don't want me to post all the lies we've heard from Bush, <font color="blue">Again with the Bush admin. stuff. I know how you feel about that Gayle. This is about JFK. </font color> and his mis-statements I'm sure, because it's a long long list, and sometimes even Bush saying one thing, and Rumsfeld or Cheney saying the oposite on the same damn day!

No matter what anyone's opinion of Kennedy as a President, he was loved by people all over the world. <font color="blue"> Yes he was. He was an impressive orator and he had Jackie. </font color> He was a big plus as a president as far as the world opinion of our country. <font color="blue"> He was a first rate actor, Gayle. They loved Clinton, too. </font color> He only had 1,000 days, and gave his life in service to our country. Had hd lived, I think he would have served us well.

Gayle in Md.
<hr /></blockquote>

wolfdancer
12-04-2005, 08:01 PM
agreed !!!!

wolfdancer
12-04-2005, 08:08 PM
I have this great idea....let's let this thread come to a well deserved end. There are no "winners" here....and to continue the debate...seems pointless.And.....
"I'm a fair guy, but this f**kin' thread's making me absolutely crazy"

Fran Crimi
12-04-2005, 08:59 PM
Believe me, I do understand where you're coming from. When I say you're linking the two, I don't mean only by comparing them. There are other ways, like that feeling of---'You're going after MY guy when YOUR guy is doing this and this and this'? (And I don't necessarily mean ME personally or YOU exclusively. But we're included. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

It may not be a comparison of administrations, but it's tit-for-tat.

Well, just for the record, GW isn't 'my guy.' I have my criteria for knowing the facts, and that criteria hasn't been met yet for me to make a decision on the man.

Personally, I think JFK is a fascinating study. I just think it's a shame that we can't discuss the man without throwing in something about GW, whether it's by comparison or not.


Fran

Gayle in MD
12-04-2005, 09:21 PM
Fran, Kennedy handled it. We weren't blown up. That's the bottom line. Now here we are, four years after 9/11, knowing that bin Laden has said all along he wants to blow us up, get nuclear weapons to do so, and this president and congress have done nothing to protect us. No sufficient protection of our nuclear power plants, equipment available which can detect bombs in our aircraft, but none have been installed, no correction made in the ability of first responders to act quickly in case of emergency, no universal list of known terrorists, in fact, non of the guidelines laid out by the 9/11 commission have been satisfied. This president and republican congress have done nothing to make us safer, so I'm finding it hard to get into what Kennedy did wrong back in 1962, especially since I am forty minutes from Washington D.C.! The money allocated has been squandered on things it was never meant to be spent on, things like airconditioning in garbage trucks, and armour for dogs, with no accountability for the squandering so far. We all saw what happened with Katrina, nobody could communicate, Homeland Security didn't even Fing know that people were stranded! Our borders remain wide open, and the GD Transportation Authority is trying to reinstate allowing people to carry on four inch knives again. Really, how long does a knife have to be to cut someone's throat??? Even the pilots and flight attendants do not want this. While we are totally unprepared for the coming attack, and it's coming, you can count on that, we are wasting time and money on the other side of the world, expanding the numbers of people who hate us, to try and force democracy on a nation that wants to kill one another, and wants us to get the hell out of there so they can get on with their favorite pastime, blowing one another away! I really can't get my interest up for what Kennedy did wrong...nothing personal, just don't find it to be what is twisting my brain around while I'm wondering where the **** this president and republican majority congress have been for the last four years, because they haven't done anything to make us safer, nothing! And, when the S**t hits the fan, and it will, you can think George Bush, and this corrupted bunch of republicans on the Hill, because they've been calling the shots!

Gayle in Md.

HiPockets
12-05-2005, 02:12 PM
"No matter what anyone's opinion of Kennedy as a President, he was loved by people all over the world."

Speak for yourself Gayle. There were some people in Dallas that didn't love him. History has not been that kind to JFK and the Kennedy's. Their warts are starting to show more and more as time passes. He won a beauty contest when he debated Nixon.

Deeman3
12-05-2005, 03:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HiPockets:</font><hr> "No matter what anyone's opinion of Kennedy as a President, he was loved by people all over the world."

Speak for yourself Gayle. There were some people in Dallas that didn't love him. History has not been that kind to JFK and the Kennedy's. Their warts are starting to show more and more as time passes. He won a beauty contest when he debated Nixon. <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
12-05-2005, 04:35 PM
It is interesting that you would post this. All these years, I thought that there had been a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. In fact, my Dad printed the book, "WhiteWash" a book that none of the other printing plants in Washington D.C. would print out of fear of losing their government contracts. The entire title was, Whitewash, that book that couldn't be printed....and it was about the whitewash of the Warren committee on the investigation into the assination.

But, I just saw a docummentary for the first time regarding the assination. There were computerized models of the actual shots, positions of the occupants in the automobile, trajectory of the bullets fired, all computerized. When you see how Kennedy and the Conelly were lined up, at the time of the first shot, well, I am convinced now that the original theories were correct about the path of the bullets. I know you will say WHAT, but you have to see the documentary to see for yourself.

Also, Oswald's brother was interviewed, and Oswalds life history, and personality disected, and also Jack Ruby's, and some of his friends interviewed, and I now believe that they each acted alone. Oswald was a loner, and his whole life led up to the one moment in time. We don't like to think that such horrible incidents can turn out to be just ramdom acts, committed by individual people, who are mentally off, but in this case, I now have changed my former views on the subject. I don't think that the mob, or Cuba or anyone else was responsible, but as I said, you have to see the documentary.

Gayle in Md.

SnakebyteXX
12-05-2005, 06:16 PM
Do you mean mean to tell me that Oswald wasn't framed...??

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/616/oswald7rr.jpg

Gayle in MD
12-06-2005, 08:41 AM
Snake, as I said, this documentary changed my long held opinion about what happened on that day. I don't think there was a conspiracy. Oswald want to do Something, anything that would set him apart from others, and Ruby, loved Kennedy, carried a gun most of the time, and was so outraged when Oswald came out looking like he was smirking, that he pulled the trigger. The events in each of theri lives which led up to that day, convinced me that they were both unbalanced individuals, neither of which would have been taken seriously by any cohesive political or criminal organization. Their pasts, and the information given by their friends and relatives, pulled the whole thing together, for me atleast.

Gayle in Md.