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eat_sleep_pool
11-22-2005, 06:56 PM
Hey everyone whats going on?
Iv been going to the gym for about 3 months and iv been strenght training, now i assume i dont know thats why im asking that when working out you are changing the memory of your muscles, i was wondering if me working out is changing the fine tuned pool muscles, is this true because (im not just finding something to blame it on) iv been playing really bad lately, i feel like i need to go right back to the begining of learning speed. help plz

Cali
11-22-2005, 09:30 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gifYou hit the nail on the head. Without getting too technical, if you want to improve your game AND lift weights, you have to play more. A steady combination of both, and eventually your game will be better with that newfound confidence of the weight training. You have a tendency to "muscle" balls around the table and overcompensate when you are lifting too much and playing too little. You understand the "muscle memory" concept, so now you need to understand "balance" of both principles. Too much of either throws the other off. Figure that one out. I still enjoy a 3 miler before an important match cause it clears my head of the "Ids" and I am able to concentrate better. In addition- lifting weights makes me even more confident than I already am. I think I'll go love myself now. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif jon

The_Doctor
11-23-2005, 07:15 AM
There are a couple of things which instantly spring to mind. The first is that following a weight training programme (especially after starting for the first time) muscle respond by maintaining a shortened position to protect themselves while they are healing up from the strength training. If the muscles are not stretched following the training then they can (and generally do) heal up in a shortened state. This means that we can no longer perform the movements that we used to as some of the muscles around a joint will be too short to allow it. We then adopt a new movement pattern to send the cue through which is most likely not as good as the previous one and any change will need adapting to. The second issue is that if you are playing pool after a weight training session the muscles will be too tired to hold the joints in the correct position for your normal stroke. You will then have decreased control of the arm at the shoulder joint and the cue will be more likely to go off line. I would advise a series of stretching all the muscles around the shoulders, neck and chest following your training sessions. There are plenty of books on different stretches. Just make sure you take the stretch to the point of mild discomfort and then hold it there for 30 seconds (any less won't work and any more has negligible effect). For the second issue just don't practice after you've been to the gym. Hope this helps.

supergreenman
11-23-2005, 08:56 AM
In the end I can only see it helping you. Weight training and cardio give a person more energy and focus. Toned muscles give you more control. If you make sure to practise often I wouldn't worry about loss of muscle memory.

J

TedKaufman
11-23-2005, 11:03 AM
I've played pool and lifted weights for many years, and I can say without reservation one does not impact the other.

That said, I would not suggest going immediately from the gym to the pool room. At the end of a lifting session, your muscles will be in recovery stage--weakened, shaky and a bit tight. But depending on your age and condition, you shouldn't have a problem shooting pool the next day or even several hours later. Often all you will need to be ready to play pool is some light stretching of your shoulders and arms. After that, once you hit balls for awhile and your stroke gets loosened up, your feel will return quickly.

The concept of "muscle memory" is actually false. There is no such thing as muscle memory. Muscles do not have memory. The action of your muscles is directed by your brain. In the case of your pool stroke, it is your brain absorbing what your eyes provide it and signaling your muscles to respond accordingly. During the fatigue/recovery stage after weight training, for a short time your muscles may not respond as your brain directs. This is only because the muscles have been temporarily broken down. But within a day or a few hours if you are young or didn't workout too hard, they recover and all is well.

I always found it interesting that golfers were told they could not lift weights because they would lose flexibility and get "muscle bound." The irony was, the folks proclaiming that didn't lift weights. Now that nearly every pro golfer lifts weights, it's quite clear the muscle bound concept was very much false. The fact is, a sensible weight lifting program will actually increase one's flexibility, not diminish it. Sitting around on the sofa is what reduces flexibility.

eat_sleep_pool
11-24-2005, 03:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TedKaufman:</font><hr> I've played pool and lifted weights for many years, and I can say without reservation one does not impact the other.<hr /></blockquote>

I just wanted to say the nicest way possible is this guy is crazy. Muscle memory is infact real. I dont know what is so special with this guy however the most of us it is true..lol For example walking is automatic and takes no real cognitive effot for for healthy adults but is initially learned and taks freat concentratuion on the part of a toddler. With constant practice , the neural networks and motor neuron/muscle group pathways become fast and effortless, requiring no conscious thought to achieve the fluid sequence of motor activity that produces optimal walking behavior. learning and memorizing sequences of skeletal muscle activities or behavious occures for various tasks besides walking and is much of what athletes are doing when they are training for a praticular sport. however the cellular mechanism responsible for this memory is not completely understood. Clearly, the biochemistry of synapses (chemical messages) between the motor nerves and muscle cells is up-regulated when used repeatedly. However, exactly how this occurs is under investigation. in additoion, the synptic transmisson is just one component of a complex series of events invloed in motor funtion.
there ya go a little science lesson for all of u guys.

TedKaufman
11-25-2005, 12:16 AM
Quote TedKaufman:
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I've played pool and lifted weights for many years, and I can say without reservation one does not impact the other.
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I just wanted to say the nicest way possible is this guy is crazy. Muscle memory is infact real. I dont know what is so special with this guy however the most of us it is true..lol For example walking is automatic and takes no real cognitive effot for for healthy adults but is initially learned and taks freat concentratuion on the part of a toddler. With constant practice , the neural networks and motor neuron/muscle group pathways become fast and effortless, requiring no conscious thought to achieve the fluid sequence of motor activity that produces optimal walking behavior. learning and memorizing sequences of skeletal muscle activities or behavious occures for various tasks besides walking and is much of what athletes are doing when they are training for a praticular sport. however the cellular mechanism responsible for this memory is not completely understood. Clearly, the biochemistry of synapses (chemical messages) between the motor nerves and muscle cells is up-regulated when used repeatedly. However, exactly how this occurs is under investigation. in additoion, the synptic transmisson is just one component of a complex series of events invloed in motor funtion.
there ya go a little science lesson for all of u guys. <font color="blue"> </font color>

<font color="black"> </font color>
Ahhh, Genius, perhaps you could explain to us why a person who, say, breaks his neck and damages his spinal cord might be paralyzed? Don't the muscles remember how to walk all by themselves since they have "muscle memory?"

vonn31
11-25-2005, 03:05 AM
I've been playing like crap lately too:

http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=21767

Hal

The_Doctor
11-25-2005, 09:45 AM
Ok, I think some things need to be clarified before this goes any further. Muscle memory? what on earth is this? It is a horrible, and very miss leading phrase. The conflict in this series of posts seems to be coming just from this phrase.

I'm sure you realise that you are both right.

When we learn a new skill there are changes both in the brain and in the local nervous tissues within the muscles. The brain undergoes synaptic changes in order to store the schema or blueprint of the skill(if you subscribe to Schmidt) and the local nervous tissue undergoes changes to afford better control of the muscular tissue.

Theres also a little thing within the muscle called the muscle spindle (quickly for anyone who doesn't know, this detects the length of the muscle and any change in length of the muscle) during the skilled learning process this can become more advanced. Leading to a pool player being able to control better what speed they move their arm at in order to hit the ball (change of length of muscle equals speed), i.e. more advanced speed control. The muscle spindle sends the information of how long the muscle is and its change of length to the brain. The more advanced this information is then the better the brain can fine tune how hard to hit the ball. I presume that this is whats meant by muscle memory. However nothing is being remembered by the muscle it is just better at telling the brain what it is doing.

So there is something called learning and something called memory but these are not local to the muscles. But there needs to be local changes in the muscles to be able to perform what learning has put in our memory.

As I put in an earlier post, this is only relavant to weight training if for some reason the person is not able to perform what they have learnt because of a factor caused by the weight training. These factors are muscular fatigue and muscular shortening.

nhp
11-26-2005, 07:03 AM
Ok obviously some of you have no clue what is meant when people talk about muscle memory and playing pool and other sports. No, the muscles do not memorize anything. They do not have minds of their own, and no they do not develop alzheimers, if you want to take your assumption a step further in idiocy.

Let me make this very simple for those who don't understand.

Every time you move any part of your body, the brain sends a singal to the muscles that are used for that particular part of the body. When your muscles are used to move a certain body part over and over and over and over, the muscles that are being used for this motion are repeatedly being stretched and torn while carrying out their assigned tasks. As time progresses, As the muscles begin to repair themselves and little by little increase in size, they will reshape themselves slightly so that whatever activity you have been doing repeatedly which involves their usage, will be able to be performed with the least muscle resistance possible. What I'm trying to say is that if you play pool for years and years with the same exact type of stroke, eventually the muscles that are involved in the stroking motion will slightly alter themselves to allow you to do that stroking motion with as little muscle resistance as possible. This is the true defenition of muscle memory as it pertains to games such as pool and golf, etc. It's like your muscles grooving a path. When you first learned how to walk, it was very hard, required alot of muscles involved to keep you from losing your balance and falling over. Now when you walk, you don't even have to conciously think about it. The reason why is because your muscles are grooved from all the walking you've done your entire life. If your muscles hadn't grooved to operate your legs with little resistance, walking would be very hard, and it would require some control from the concious mind rather than the part of your brain that controlls your primary motor functions such as walking and breathing (the brain stem).

Snapshot9
11-26-2005, 08:39 AM
I have played 44 years, and lifted weights 42 years,
and still do, although not as much. I have found
that if you lift more than twice a week, and a heavy
workout, it will affect your game, mostly the break
for me. Doing stretching exercises on between days
is a good idea. I no longer try to 'build' up per se,
but rather just to maintain strength and keep toned up,
and I only work out with 50 lb weights now.