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SnakebyteXX
11-30-2005, 12:17 PM
Nov 30, 8:56 AM (ET)

By DEVLIN BARRETT

WASHINGTON (AP) - Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton on Tuesday defended her vote to authorize war in Iraq amid growing unease among liberal Democrats who could determine the potential 2008 presidential candidate's future.

"I take responsibility for my vote, and I, along with a majority of Americans, expect the president and his administration to take responsibility for the false assurances, faulty evidence and mismanagement of the war," the New York senator said in a lengthy letter to thousands of people who have written her about the war.

At the same time, she said the United States must "finish what it started" in Iraq.

Clinton and other hawkish Democrats have come under criticism from liberal anti-war activists, many of whom will hold sway over presidential primary contests. The former first lady, who is up for re-election in 2006, would likely be an early front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination should she decide to seek it.

The 1,600-word letter was sent, mainly through e-mail, on Tuesday - a day before President Bush was to deliver a speech on his Iraqi policies. The president's approval ratings plummeted in recent months as the U.S. death toll and anti-war sentiments grew.

The debate has also put Clinton in a tight spot: generally viewed as pro-military, the former first lady is the most-watched member of a party that is increasingly turning against the war.

In her letter to voters, the senator cited prewar assurances from the White House that the United States would use the United Nations to resolve the issue of Iraq's purported weapons of mass destruction.

"Based on the information that we have today, Congress never would have been asked to give the president authority to use force against Iraq," she said. Clinton stopped short of saying her vote was a mistake, the political path chosen by two other potential Democratic candidates - former vice presidential candidate John Edwards and Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del.

"Given years of assurances that the war was nearly over and that the insurgents were in their 'last throes," this administration was either not being honest with the American people or did not know what was going on in Iraq," she wrote.

Clinton's allies billed the letter as her most comprehensive statement on the war to date.

"It is time for the president to stop serving up platitudes and present us with a plan for finishing this war with success and honor," she wrote.

Clinton, who sits on the Senate Armed Services Committee, said earlier this month it would be a "big mistake" for U.S. troops to pull out immediately. She stuck with that line Tuesday. "America has a big job to do now. We must set reasonable goals to finish what we started and successfully turn over Iraqi security to Iraqis," she wrote.

web page (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051130/D8E6QUUOD.html)

wolfdancer
11-30-2005, 12:44 PM
Hillary got "balls"......if, IF, she gets elected,would that make Bill the first "first man" in the white house?
But count the silverware...lol

supergreenman
11-30-2005, 01:18 PM
OH BOY does "first man" have some connotations

Deeman3
11-30-2005, 04:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Hillary got "balls"......if, IF, she gets elected,would that make Bill the first "first man" in the white house?
But count the silverware...lol <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Wow, I am proud to see her take any sort of stand. I think, overall, what she is asking is reasonable. I have always said the administration will have to take responsibility for the war in the end.

I am glad her memory is getting better as she gets older. And I think Bill will make a lovely first lady....


Deeman </font color>

Big_Jon
11-30-2005, 11:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Hillary got "balls"......if, IF, she gets elected,would that make Bill the first "first man" in the white house?
But count the silverware...lol <hr /></blockquote>

No, it would make him the "first man" for the second time.
He was already the first...
For 8 years...

pooltchr
12-01-2005, 06:09 AM
One of the few times that I actually like what I am hearing from Ms. Clinton. She basically agreed with the main points of President Bush's speech yesterday. It's not a good war (none are), but let's deal with the situation, win and then get out.

Her comment that she acted based on the information available at the time, is very similar to the entire stand of the administration. It's easy to have 20-20 hindsight and become a Monday morning quarterback. We did what we did thinking it was the right thing at the time. Now is the time for everyone to get behind the effort to win the war and bring the troops home after they have done it. Pulling out now would just make every life that has already been lost a waste.

Now if this is how she honestly feels, and didn't make the statement for political purposes, I have to applaud her.

Steve

eg8r
12-01-2005, 06:23 AM
[ QUOTE ]
"I take responsibility for my vote,..." <hr /></blockquote> While I don't agree with much this woman does, I have to admit this is pretty admirable if taken at face value. It seperates her from the majority of the Democratic party. This is much different than some wimp like Kerry who says I voted for the war and then I didn't vote for the war. However if I had to vote again, I would vote the same way I did in the beginning. Then he starts this stupid chant, wrong war wrong time (or something dumb like that). At least you know where Hillary stands.

I mentioned previously that this statement is admirable if taken at face value. A small part of me remains skeptical because we all really know that Hillary is against the war but she needs to differentiate herself a bit and appear to be favorable to the war to attract those voters who do agree with the war. I guess it will all come out in the end. As of right now, Hillary has shown she has more guts than the majority of the Dem party.

eg8r

Rich R.
12-01-2005, 07:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Her comment that she acted based on the information available at the time, is very similar to the entire stand of the administration. It's easy to have 20-20 hindsight and become a Monday morning quarterback. We did what we did thinking it was the right thing at the time. <hr /></blockquote>
Steve, you forget that it was the administration that controled the information given to everyone else. If the real information was provided, many of our soldiers would still be alive. JMHO.

pooltchr
12-01-2005, 10:16 AM
Rich,
We have information today we didn't have yesterday. We will have information tomorrow that we don't have today. Neither of us knows what information was available to whom at the time, so we just have to accept that we may have acted on bad information. Either way, we acted, and now it's time to deal with the situation at hand. Looking backward does no one any good. We need to look ahead, and that is what I hear Ms Clinton saying, and that's what I heard the President say yesterday. Like I said, I gotta give her credit for her comments.
Steve

Gayle in MD
12-01-2005, 10:58 AM
Well now, isn't that just brilliant! The people who screwed everything up never want to look back. Is your motto, "If it isn't working, charge ahead with more of the same?" The definition of insanity...."Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."

If this administration had enough sense to look back and learn from mistakes, they would never have been dumb enough to occupy Iraq in the first place. Does it ever occur to you that there were many many experienced people who warned Bush not to go in there? Or that there have been atleast twenty books written, not by politicians, but by the grunts, the ones with the earphones and the computers and the intelligence gathering information who all say that Bush refused to listen to their warnings that SH had no weapons of mass destruction? For someone who is always accusing people of partisan thinking you sure do manage to candy coat the facts to your parties advantage....What you heard the president say yesterday was another pack of lies and rhetoric, and you don't want to assess his performance, or look back at how we got into this mess? I can understand why you wouldn't want to do that, no neo-cons want to look back, that's why the democrats had to shut down the congress to force the repiglicans to stop stalling the investigation, and that's why Bush did everything he could to stop the 9/11 investigation, including shutting off the funds for it. Three thousand people were killed on 9/11, but you don't want to look back to find out why our intelligence failed. I can tell you why. Bush wouldn't listen...that is why.

Gayle in Md....

pooltchr
12-01-2005, 07:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Well now, isn't that just brilliant! The people who screwed everything up never want to look back. Is your motto, "If it isn't working, charge ahead with more of the same?" The definition of insanity...."Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."

If this administration had enough sense to look back and learn from mistakes, they would never have been dumb enough to occupy Iraq in the first place. Does it ever occur to you that there were many many experienced people who warned Bush not to go in there? Or that there have been atleast twenty books written, not by politicians, but by the grunts, the ones with the earphones and the computers and the intelligence gathering information who all say that Bush refused to listen to their warnings that SH had no weapons of mass destruction? For someone who is always accusing people of partisan thinking you sure do manage to candy coat the facts to your parties advantage....What you heard the president say yesterday was another pack of lies and rhetoric, and you don't want to assess his performance, or look back at how we got into this mess? I can understand why you wouldn't want to do that, no neo-cons want to look back, that's why the democrats had to shut down the congress to force the repiglicans to stop stalling the investigation, and that's why Bush did everything he could to stop the 9/11 investigation, including shutting off the funds for it. Three thousand people were killed on 9/11, but you don't want to look back to find out why our intelligence failed. I can tell you why. Bush wouldn't listen...that is why.

Gayle in Md.... <hr /></blockquote>

Grow up!

Rich R.
12-01-2005, 07:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Rich,
We have information today we didn't have yesterday. We will have information tomorrow that we don't have today. Neither of us knows what information was available to whom at the time, so we just have to accept that we may have acted on bad information.<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red">I'm sure you won't agree, but, IMHO, the administration knew there were no "weapons of mass destruction" all a long. If they had definite information, they would have been able to tell the U.N. inspectors where to look. If they didn't choose to let the inspectors find them, certainly they could have had our troops find them. They had the correct information. They just chose to ignore it. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Either way, we acted, and now it's time to deal with the situation at hand. Looking backward does no one any good.<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red">Again, we disagree. You have to look back, or history will repeat itself and you will make the same mistakes. You have to learn from your past mistakes. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> We need to look ahead, and that is what I hear Ms Clinton saying, and that's what I heard the President say yesterday. Like I said, I gotta give her credit for her comments.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red">The one thing we agree on is, Ms. Clinton deserves a lot of credit for her comments. She shows a lot more class than many in Washington. </font color>

Gayle in MD
12-01-2005, 07:40 PM
Have some more Kool-Aid friend...then take a pill and calm down. I know how the facts upset you delicate nature....

Gayle in Md.

pooltchr
12-01-2005, 07:47 PM
Rich,
Do you believe that Sadam had WMD and used them against the Kurds? If not, how do you explain the reports to the contrary.
If he had them then, is it not possible that he got rid of them knowing or at least expecting that someone was coming to look for them?
Also, if I recall correctly, wasn't it John Kerry, explaining his vote to invade who said something about knowing he had WMD, and the vehicles to deliver them, and was also trying to develop nuclear capability?

If you want to beat up GW for this plan, you gotta beat up all the others who agreed with him.
Steve

pooltchr
12-01-2005, 08:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Have some more Kool-Aid friend...then take a pill and calm down. I know how the facts upset you delicate nature....

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Facts??? I don't think you would recognize one if it walked up to you and bit you. When you can make an intelligent post without resorting to your typical name calling, and regurgitating the crap that the liberal press feeds you daily, maybe we can have a discussion. I almost hope the dems take the white house next time....it will be interesting to see if you defend their guy with the same glee that you attack the republicans (oops, sorry..that's repiglicans to you)

Gayle in MD
12-01-2005, 08:27 PM
Generally speaking, I avoid discussions with people who think that people can live inside whales, LOL.

You and your kind just refuse to admit that whomever voted did not vote for war, but voted to give GWB the power to go to the UN, and that any statements any of them made, were made according to the lies that were fed to them by the Bush administration. Bush is and was the Commander and Chief. It was his responsibility to give a full and accurate accounting to the Congress and the Senate, which he did not do. I believe, according to the reading I have done, that they all lied. Apparently, most Americans believe as I do. Also, Congressman Murtha, the most respected decorated Veteran, and knowlegable supporter of our troops, with thirty-eight years of war service in the armed forces, also thinks they are lying. He is in touch with commanders on the field, and talks with troops and Generals regularly. I could give you a whole list of former government grunts, experts who tried to appeal to the Bush administration with facts about BL and Iraq, whose books I have read. They all warned this administration. And frankly, I don't think you research anything. I think that fox news is your only input. Garbage in, garbage out.

As for name calling, the right on here do a pretty good job of name calling and condescending posting. People who live in glass houses, etc.....Sticks and stones, etc....

Truly, I find it interesting that you insist on reading my posts and posting back in the first place. If I were you, and they infuriated me as much as they do you, I wouldn't read them anymore, or respond to them. Why not give yourself a break, since you have such a hard time with those who have a diferent point of view, and think it is your place to dictate to others how they are allowed to post, and do as the president does. Don't listen to or read about anything that does not support your point of view.

Gayle in Md..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
12-01-2005, 09:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Do you believe that Sadam had WMD and used them against the Kurds? <hr /></blockquote>
That was in 1988!



http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg

What is a WMD?

Q

Rich R.
12-02-2005, 04:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> If you want to beat up GW for this plan, you gotta beat up all the others who agreed with him.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>Steve, I am not beating up GW alone. You will note, I didn't even mention him. I fault the administration, as a whole. It could be the fault of GW, but it could also be the fault of one or all of his advisors. They filter all of the intelligence information and make it public with their own spin and they don't always allow the facts to creep in. Congress, as well as the public, rely on that tainted information to make decisions.

BTW, I don't mean to imply that other administrations, regardless of party affiliation, have not done similar things. I just happen to think it is wrong. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

pooltchr
12-02-2005, 05:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>

You and your kind.....
<font color="red"> Another example </font color>
As for name calling, the right on here do a pretty good job of name calling and condescending posting. People who live in glass houses, etc.....Sticks and stones, etc....

Truly, I find it interesting that you insist on reading my posts and posting back in the first place. <font color="red"> The fact that I read your posts shouldn't surprise you. Oh, I forgot, you think I only get information from Fox news </font color> If I were you, and they infuriated me as much as they do you, I wouldn't read them anymore, or respond to them. Why not give yourself a break, since you have such a hard time with those who have a diferent point of view, <font color="red"> Now THAT is a case of the pot calling the kettle black! </font color> and think it is your place to dictate to others how they are allowed to post, <font color="red"> post any way you like. just be prepared for someone to challenge you when they think you are wrong. </font color> and do as the president does. Don't listen to or read about anything that does not support your point of view. <font color="red"> does that include listening to you? </font color>

Gayle in Md..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> Gayle, I have told you before that I enjoy exchanging ideas with those who may not see things the same way I do. What I don't enjoy is seeing someone resort to childish name calling rather than addressing facts. At the same time, I am thankful that everyone in this country has the right to their opinion, and the right to voice it. As a vet, I probably have a different view on the role of the military, and the administration that has the power and authority to control it. I believe that our troops have a mission, and I am thankful we have a leader who won't back down. We did that in Viet Nam and I hope we never do it again! </font color>

Gayle in MD
12-02-2005, 06:27 AM
Really, then I suppose that you think that another ten years in Iraq, and another forty thousand lost lives all for the sake of a bunch of people who will be out to destroy us when they get their steam up, and are throwing stones at us right now, is the best course of action to take.

You're glad that everyone in this country has a right to voice their opinion as long as they do it in a way that YOU find acceptable. Well, too bad. I totally enjoy calling Bush a chimp, this repiglican bunch of crooks, repiglicans, and resmuglicans, and Cheney Uncle Fester, so shove it! I guess you don't mind it when Dick Cheney and the resmuglicans call an honerable person like Congressman Murtha irresponsible, and reprehensible, and a coward after his thirty eights years of sterling service to this country.

I believe that our troops are being treated extremely poorly, and I talk with them on a regualr basis. I am defending our troops, who have been redeployed four and five times in Iraq, and without proper supplies, and support from this administration, while they are being used by an egomaniac who is out of touch with reality, so don't pull out your Vet card on me.

When you begin to debate with me without your constant degrading, condescending attitude, you'll get the same treatment back. Till then, hold on to your mouse, cause I give as good as I get, and you ain't seen nothin' yet.

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
12-02-2005, 06:39 AM
[ QUOTE ]
When you begin to debate with me without your constant degrading, condescending attitude, you'll get the same treatment back. Till then, hold on to your mouse, cause I give as good as I get, and you ain't seen nothin' yet. <hr /></blockquote> LOL, your quote above is just like a little child retaliating in a school cafeteria food fight by throwing his own food. I understand, you probably get tickles all over every time you find another "kool" way to say Republicans. I think pooltchr said all that needed to be said when he asked you to "Grow up".

eg8r