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View Full Version : After a Tough Loss - Any Wisdom



Bassn7
12-01-2005, 07:58 PM
Any words of wisdom from the crew out there. League night, huge crowd, myself and another APA 7 going head to head. I was beat 4-5. Disappointed, yes. End of the world, no. Just looking for some words of wisdom about getting back on the horse.

randyg
12-01-2005, 09:24 PM
When two pool players have a contest someone has to score more than the other. That's the law of pool. Tomorrow is a brand new day......SPF-randyg

iacas
12-01-2005, 10:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> Any words of wisdom from the crew out there. League night, huge crowd, myself and another APA 7 going head to head. I was beat 4-5. Disappointed, yes. End of the world, no. Just looking for some words of wisdom about getting back on the horse.<hr /></blockquote>

I've played competitive golf, so I don't have any pool-specific thoughts. My post-round routine is the same regardless of what I did or didn't do: I look at what I can learn from the experience and look forward to applying it the next time out.

Billy_Bob
12-02-2005, 12:06 AM
If you are like my friend who is also a 7, you will probably be back in the action and over it by the time you read this!

(He will be down for a day or two, then is back to his normal self after that. His wins are more than his losses and I hope I can play as well as he does some day.)

sack316
12-02-2005, 02:49 AM
How many times have you been on the other side of this scenario? Based on the fact that you are a SL 7, I feel it safe to assume you have won many matches, and likely have won plenty of hard fought nailbiters against top tier players before (and probably lost a few exactly like this one as well). Sometimes you just lose... either you play a little below what you feel you should, or he/she stepped up to a higher level, etc. Whatever the case, you now simply have a reason to garner that much more drive and focus for your next match, then the next one, and the next, and so forth.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll be fine. Just don't dwell on it. Thoughts of losing inevitably lead to more losing... find the positives and work off of those.

JMHO,
Sack

dg-in-centralpa
12-02-2005, 08:05 AM
I try to figure out what I did wrong and work on those areas. If your losses were to a break and run, you did nothing wrong. If you misplayed a shot, practice it over and over.

DG

Fran Crimi
12-02-2005, 08:33 AM
Many times when you have two players playing each other who are evenly matched, it all comes down to a lucky or unlucky roll, or an opportunity for one player that wasn't there for the other player.

IMO, a race to 5 between 2 APA 7's isn't going to determine who the better player is. The key is in ignoring the crowd's reaction because as far as they're concerned, he won and you lost. That makes him better. Wrong. That just means that for whatever reason, he won that match. That's all, nothing more.

Fran

Rod
12-02-2005, 09:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Many times when you have two players playing each other who are evenly matched, it all comes down to a lucky or unlucky roll, or an opportunity for one player that wasn't there for the other player.

IMO, a race to 5 between 2 APA 7's isn't going to determine who the better player is. The key is in ignoring the crowd's reaction because as far as they're concerned, he won and you lost. That makes him better. Wrong. That just means that for whatever reason, he won that match. That's all, nothing more.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>


I agree with you Fran. Between to evenly matched opponents, someone's going to win, it just wasn't you. I think your making this into some kind of hollywood production though and it isn't necessary. You win some and lose some playing an equal, the key is learn from your mistakes. Other than he may have a weak area in his game, thats all you do.

Rod

Bassn7
12-02-2005, 09:18 AM
Fran,
Your 'post' makes a ton of sense. I scratched in the side and it cost me two games.(a run and and an 8 on the break) Your analysis is exactly what I needed to see this situation clearly. You're a star. Thanks.

Marty

Fran Crimi
12-02-2005, 09:36 AM
Sure. I know what it feels like. It's painful. That's why it's good to be gracious when you win. It could have just as easily gone the other way. Let the railbirds battle it out among themselves...

Fran

SpiderMan
12-02-2005, 10:06 AM
As you note, one difference between APA and most other league formats is the peer pressure due to match scheduling. Because matches are played serially, when you're at the table your teammates and the opponent's teammates are all watching. No one is off competing in another match on another table.

BTW, this format is one reason I didn't particularly enjoy APA - not because of the peer pressure, but the fact that at any given time 80% of the participants are sitting in their chairs with little to do but watch (and drink). Great for the bar's revenue, but I tired of spending over 4 hours in a smoky environment to play only one match.

Back to the peer pressure thing - as the team's "7", your fellow players have come to think of you as the big gun. You're expected to win your matches ... after all, they're using up 7 of their handicap allowance just putting you in. In reality, a "7" does win most of his/her matches, so that makes any loss seem a little more vivid.

For a 7, the biggest wild card opponent will be a 4 or another 7. Many fours, especially those newer players whose handicap hasn't caught up to their skills (all men enter APA as fours) are good enough to run out an open table. They only need to win two against you. Rattling a ball near the end of a run against a 4 can put him on the hill while you still need 5. And of course a 7 can be anywhere from a decent bar player to a world-beater. It's sometimes amusing to hear APA players refer to "a 7" versus "a REAL 7".

Anyway, what I'm saying is that giving up an occasional match to a 4 or a 7 goes with the territory. Unless you're a world-beater, the percentages will catch up to you and there's no shame in it. I think I lost about ten matches in two years of APA play, and all but three were to fours and sevens. I lost twice to sixes who earned their victories, and once to a two because of my own series of mistakes.

Notice that I REMEMBER details of the three losses to sixes and a two - I remember which players, and where we were. But the details of losses to the fours and sevens aren't memorable. Why? Because the percentages just caught up to me.

BTW, I read most of your posts and they seem pretty insightful. In particular, your observation about break-and-run conversions using APA vs BCA rules mirror my own thoughts. A good player is more likely to string together racks using BCA rules. On bar tables, where clutter is a real issue, the game winner is often the person who chooses the group. Under APA rules, breaking will allow you to choose the group ONLY if you make two or more balls AND drop at least one from each group. Under BCA, all you have to do is drop any ball and you're off and running. The "slop counts" rule in APA may extend the innings of lower-skilled players, but it's seldom a factor in runouts by a 7.

SpiderMan

Eric.
12-02-2005, 10:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> Any words of wisdom from the crew out there. League night, huge crowd, myself and another APA 7 going head to head. I was beat 4-5. Disappointed, yes. End of the world, no. Just looking for some words of wisdom about getting back on the horse. <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe you should take a couple of weeks off from Pool, and after that, quit the game. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Just curious, your name wouldn't happen to be Terry or Larry?


Eric

Sid_Vicious
12-02-2005, 10:52 AM
It depends if I lost, or if he beat me with talent. If I didn't beat myself, there's never any reason I can find for even thinking about it much after the match is done. The question needs more delineation IMO...sid

Bassn7
12-02-2005, 01:42 PM
No, I'm not THE Terry or Larry, just a long term player. I was beat by one of the best bar box monsters around though. He took second at the BCA Masters this year. I'm going to make a few adjustments . . . I've got to break better!

Eric.
12-02-2005, 02:27 PM
Jesse plays real good on the box. I didn't think he plays APA. What's your name?


Eric

Cane
12-02-2005, 06:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr>I'm going to make a few adjustments . . . I've got to break better! <hr /></blockquote>

Bassn7... I had a lot of trouble breaking, so here's what I did. I got on the computer and built a spreadsheet. It has 10 rows and 6 columns. The columns are CB Position, Rack Hit, (those two are just for noting where I'm breaking from and where I'm hitting the rack, or intending to). The other columns are for scoring. I have a CB Position after break, number of balls made, open shot after break, number of clusters. Now, you can do this anyway you want, but here's what I do. I grid my table off and score the CB from 1 to 3 depending on the part of the grid it's in after the break, 3 being the best score, if you scratch, your CB score is -2. Number of balls made, I score one point for each ball made. Open shot after the break, I score one point for having an open shot, but no points if I didn't make a ball on the break. Number of clusters is a minus score. I score -1 for every cluster I have after the break but a PLUS one if there are NO clusters.

Now, the reason there are 10 rows is that I break from a particular position 10 times in a row, scoring each rack. Then I'll move and break from another position 10 times, scoring that on a different sheet, and so on and so on and so on. Well, after the first few times of scoring my breaks, I discovered that my "favorite" break really wasn't my best break. I scored a consistently higher average on a different break and it has now become my "favorite".

One thing I need to change on my sheet, but for now I just make notes on it, is to put a column on it for break speed.

Anyways, if you want to improve your break, measure it, score it and see what it's really doing. Try different breaks and I think you'll be surprised (I was) at how few balls you actually average making on your favorite break. You may find one you like much better.

Later,
Bob

Stretch
12-02-2005, 09:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr>I'm going to make a few adjustments . . . I've got to break better! <hr /></blockquote>

Bassn7... I had a lot of trouble breaking, so here's what I did. I got on the computer and built a spreadsheet. It has 10 rows and 6 columns. The columns are CB Position, Rack Hit, (those two are just for noting where I'm breaking from and where I'm hitting the rack, or intending to). The other columns are for scoring. I have a CB Position after break, number of balls made, open shot after break, number of clusters. Now, you can do this anyway you want, but here's what I do. I grid my table off and score the CB from 1 to 3 depending on the part of the grid it's in after the break, 3 being the best score, if you scratch, your CB score is -2. Number of balls made, I score one point for each ball made. Open shot after the break, I score one point for having an open shot, but no points if I didn't make a ball on the break. Number of clusters is a minus score. I score -1 for every cluster I have after the break but a PLUS one if there are NO clusters.

Now, the reason there are 10 rows is that I break from a particular position 10 times in a row, scoring each rack. Then I'll move and break from another position 10 times, scoring that on a different sheet, and so on and so on and so on. Well, after the first few times of scoring my breaks, I discovered that my "favorite" break really wasn't my best break. I scored a consistently higher average on a different break and it has now become my "favorite".

One thing I need to change on my sheet, but for now I just make notes on it, is to put a column on it for break speed.

Anyways, if you want to improve your break, measure it, score it and see what it's really doing. Try different breaks and I think you'll be surprised (I was) at how few balls you actually average making on your favorite break. You may find one you like much better.

Later,
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

Great advice Cane. Doing anything of a repetative nature can be pretty brain numbing boring unless u have a plan and objective in place. This sounds like a good drill. I see there is method to your madness. lol St.

Bassn7
12-02-2005, 10:40 PM
Outstanding idea, thank you. But I think that is a step ahead of what I need. I've got to re-evaluate my mechanics and what ball I wish to hit. Head ball or second ball? I recently played in the Regional singles APA championships against all 7s and not a single player broke from the side, all went hard down the middle. I found that odd until I tried it. I think the tables need to tell me how to break.

nhp
12-03-2005, 07:17 AM
You lost in a short race on a barbox. Who cares. You're not even playing real pool. Barbox pool is a joke.

Billy_Bob
12-03-2005, 10:35 AM
I live in a rural area and 7 ft. bar boxes are all there is!

So until someone makes a coin-op regulation table and bars everywhere install them, there will be a *lot* of people playing on bar boxes.

supergreenman
12-03-2005, 10:57 AM
Sheesh you have to love these 9foot snobs that think the only kind of pool you can play is on a big table.

I play on both, each presents it's own difficulties and challenges.

J

Bassn7
12-03-2005, 12:21 PM
I've won 8 trips to Vegas, airfare and hotel all paid. Have you? I believe in TRYING to master one game. Mine just happens to be bar table 8-ball. Story: last week for the first time our room's best nine foot table 9-ball player decided to come over to the bar box tables. I put 7 sets of race to five on him in a row. His comment . . .: "I can't beat you. I've lost my will to even try." Now I NEVER expect to beat him on his turf because I know my limitations. I've spent 20 years playing that table and love it every day. It's chess on felt!

Scott_The_Shot
12-04-2005, 12:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Sure. I know what it feels like. It's painful. That's why it's good to be gracious when you win.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Also be gracious when you lose. Compliment him/her on how well he played. You want to leave a lasting impression on your opponent? Try this some time. Have the self confidence in your game and the realization of how well someone has to play to beat you, and commend them for their effort. You will be amazed what this mentality will do for your game, and the representation of your character.
It is far too common to hear the negative "I's".

supergreenman
12-04-2005, 01:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott_The_Shot:</font><hr>
Also be gracious when you lose. Compliment him/her on how well he played. You want to leave a lasting impression on your opponent? Try this some time. Have the self confidence in your game and the realization of how well someone has to play to beat you, and commend them for their effort. You will be amazed what this mentality will do for your game, and the representation of your character.
It is far too common to hear the negative "I's". <hr /></blockquote>

Well said Scott.

nhp
12-04-2005, 04:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> I've won 8 trips to Vegas, airfare and hotel all paid. Have you? I believe in TRYING to master one game. Mine just happens to be bar table 8-ball. Story: last week for the first time our room's best nine foot table 9-ball player decided to come over to the bar box tables. I put 7 sets of race to five on him in a row. His comment . . .: "I can't beat you. I've lost my will to even try." Now I NEVER expect to beat him on his turf because I know my limitations. I've spent 20 years playing that table and love it every day. It's chess on felt! <hr /></blockquote>

And I suppose you prefer barboxes over 9 footers because they are easier. Even the bar tables with tight pockets are so easy it's ridiculous. All you need is decent cueball control and you are a run out king. I just personally don't think that it's real pool because the shotmaking is so damned easy it's comical. I've played on 7 footers plenty of times and I don't get any enjoyment out of it, no matter how well I play on them, because the challenge just isn't there.

Fran Crimi
12-04-2005, 09:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott_The_Shot:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Sure. I know what it feels like. It's painful. That's why it's good to be gracious when you win.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Also be gracious when you lose. Compliment him/her on how well he played. You want to leave a lasting impression on your opponent? Try this some time. Have the self confidence in your game and the realization of how well someone has to play to beat you, and commend them for their effort. You will be amazed what this mentality will do for your game, and the representation of your character.
It is far too common to hear the negative "I's". <hr /></blockquote>

True, the negative stuff looks bad, but it's difficult to generalize about how to act when you lose because it depends on the situation. In most cases, a simple handshake is all that's necessary. Complimenting your opponent can be a double-edged sword. Both you and your opponent know if they played well. If you sincerely felt it and you want to tell them, great, tell them. They'll know it's sincere because they know they played well. But if you're just saying it to pump up your own ego, and not because they played well, they will know...And yes, it will leave a lasting impression on them, but it won't be a good one.

Why get into the head game stuff? Besides, what good does lying to your opponent do for you? You know the truth, anyway. You're not going to fool yourself. Either you played well or you didn't.


Fran

Sid_Vicious
12-04-2005, 09:23 AM
One of my stock comments after losing when neither player really won, if you catch my drift, is "We can BOTH play better than that." I guess it is just habit but most competitors will shake hands and say "Good match", when in reality it was dismal on my part. I understand their good nature but those words usually sting instead of console. I do enjoy knowing someone sees something special in parts of my game though, and stating it is nice, and most importantly, good sportsmanship...sid

Stretch
12-04-2005, 09:26 AM
Posting links in response to questions seems to be the favorite pastime these days /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif with that in mind i've chosen to provide some ineresting reading on this whole topic of winning and loseing...enjoy.

&lt;http://www..com/p/articles/mi_m1175/is_n9_v22/ai_6583444&gt;

Bassn7
12-04-2005, 11:44 AM
I think I figured this situation out where we both are correct. You're type of player enjoys that the table is tough. I'm the type of player that enjoys that the opponent and the match is tough. You enjoy the tough shots, I enjoy the tough strategy. Even Steven.

Scott_The_Shot
12-04-2005, 05:52 PM
Hi Fran,

In no way did I intend my statement to be viewed as an ego boost to the losong player. I was trying to express the overall benefits of positive thinking vs negative thinking.
In pool circles it is very rare to hear the losing opponent give credit for his opponent's performance. The comments tend to favor the "I cant believe I lost to that guy he cant _______". Rather than "I played my best and he took great advantage of the mistakes I made".
I will always strive to play my best and dont feel it egotistical to commend my opponent for playing well against me. Especially in tournaments

Fran Crimi
12-04-2005, 09:13 PM
Hi Scott. I see what you're saying now. I thought you were saying that you should always compliment your opponent when he wins. That could get a bit insincere if it's not true.

Sure, I agree that it's much better to be positive than to knock your opponent after he beats you. But sometimes it's just the way the balls roll. I think it's okay to recognize that too when that happens.

Fran

Qtec
12-05-2005, 09:53 AM
Sometimes the dif between a great win and a tough loss is 1 cm.
Never judge yourself by winning or losing , what counts is how you played.
Did you make the most of your chances?
Were you bold when you needed to be?
Were you true to yourself?

Every world champion got his a$$ kicked before he was the champ! Its a neccessary part of the learning process. Try and be honest with yourself when examining your performance and you will make progress.

'The only frame that counts is this one'...Steve Davis.

Qtec

Billy
12-06-2005, 01:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>
So until someone makes a coin-op regulation table ... <hr /></blockquote>

Diamond makes a 9' one piece slate dollar bill operated table, I believe

and if I'm not further mistaken, this is the same table the IPT uses (but without the money operations)

jmo

Cornerman
12-06-2005, 06:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>
So until someone makes a coin-op regulation table ... <hr /></blockquote>

Diamond makes a 9' one piece slate dollar bill operated table, I believe

and if I'm not further mistaken, this is the same table the IPT uses (but without the money operations)

jmo <hr /></blockquote>This might sound confusing, or this might sound obvious. The slate and the table are independent. The SMART Table is a coin-op table with single piece slate. It comes in 7' 8' and 9' sizes, all with single-piece slate.

The Diamond Pro is the table being used at the IPT tournaments. The ones at the IPT tournaments are setup with single piece slate for ease of setup.

I am quite sure that for home use, single-piece slate is an option along with 3-piece slate.

There isn't much difference between the current Diamond Pro and the Diamond SMART Table, apart from the coin-op and cueball return mechanisms.

Fred

Cornerman
12-06-2005, 07:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> Any words of wisdom from the crew out there. League night, huge crowd, myself and another APA 7 going head to head. I was beat 4-5. Disappointed, yes. End of the world, no. Just looking for some words of wisdom about getting back on the horse. <hr /></blockquote>I used to have this saying on my signature for a while. Someone else now has it:

When you lose, don't lose the lesson.

I'm sure there might have been one shot here or there that spelled the difference. Learn from it.

Fred

Cornerman
12-06-2005, 07:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> You lost in a short race on a barbox. Who cares.<hr /></blockquote>
Apparently, he does. That being said, it's league night. It's not the end of the world, nor should it be something to stress out about. Especially for someone who has supposedly playing league pool for 20 years.

[ QUOTE ]
You're not even playing real pool. Barbox pool is a joke. <hr /></blockquote>That sounds like an inexperienced comment.

Friday night banging on a bar box is a joke. But so is pool hall banging by beginners and non-players. Bar table play itself can be a thing of beauty, especially by good players. A true SL-7 vs. SL-7 can be nothing short of excellent real pool.

Fred

Cornerman
12-06-2005, 07:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> And I suppose you prefer barboxes over 9 footers because they are easier. Even the bar tables with tight pockets are so easy it's ridiculous. All you need is decent cueball control and you are a run out king. I just personally don't think that it's real pool because the shotmaking is so damned easy it's comical. I've played on 7 footers plenty of times and I don't get any enjoyment out of it, no matter how well I play on them, because the challenge just isn't there. <hr /></blockquote>Your comments are suggestive that you haven't seen great bar table competition like the Masters BCA, or even a high level bar tournament in your local area.

Did you know that several of the major tournaments in the Southeast were/are bar table tournaments? The Music City Open was (and still might be) a 7' bar table open professional table. So were the Lexington championships and the Chattanooga Billiards Open.

When people talk about Buddy Hall, Dave Matlock, and Keith McCready as three of the all-time greatest bar table players, and those three take pride on that statement, that should clue you in as to the merit of bar pool and what it means. If it meant nothing but a trivial non-challenge, those three would never tout their bar table excellence.

If you think it's easy, not a challenge, so easy to make shots, then I simply think you've never seen the good stuff.

Fred &lt;~~~ seen the good stuff

pooltchr
12-07-2005, 06:33 AM
Fred,
I believe the annual Smoky Mountain Shootout is also on bar tables and the field is loaded with top talent every year.
Steve