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06-26-2002, 12:26 PM
hey guys. I was just wanderinf if you could help me out. How do I make the 8 ball on the break on a bar box table?
I know you people know how. Ive been entering 8 ball tourneys at a local bar and if i knew how to do this would be a great help! Thanks for sharing your skills.

John Bastian in pa

Scott Lee
06-26-2002, 12:31 PM
John...If you figure that out, you will be the only one in the world! LOL Making the 8 on the break is a pure luck shot. Having a good break, hitting the CB in the middle, and striking the head ball dead on, with less than full speed, will give you a better break, with more control of the CB. Making the 8 is no different from making any other ball on the break. Even the top pros, when playing 8-ball,
not only do NOT make the 8 on the break, but frequently make NO balls on the break. Watch a pro 8-ball tourney sometime, and you will see this is true. To improve your game, be less concerned with making the 8, and more concerned with HOW you are breaking...which will improve your chances to make ANY ball on the break.

Scott Lee

Lester
06-26-2002, 12:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: airforce1239:</font><hr> hey guys. I was just wanderinf if you could help me out. How do I make the 8 ball on the break on a bar box table?
I know you people know how. Ive been entering 8 ball tourneys at a local bar and if i knew how to do this would be a great help! Thanks for sharing your skills.

John Bastian in pa <hr></blockquote>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;John, on a bar box if you put the que ball on the right side (about an inch and a half from the rail) you strike the second ball on the right side of the stack using low left - HARD. The eight ball goes in the left hand side pocket. You've got to play with it until you get the correct combination of power and angle. But you can make it on a regular basis. ***Lester***

Scott Lee
06-26-2002, 12:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Lester:</font><hr>But you can make it on a regular basis. ***Lester*** <hr></blockquote>

Lester...This is NOT true. I will be in MD in a couple of months. Let's get together, and you can SHOW me how to make the 8 on the break "on a regular basis"! LOL BTW, can we perhaps make some wager on this phenomenon? I have had a standing offer to anyone in the world, who "claims" they can make the 8 on the break whenever they want to!...bring it on, and bring large amounts of money...so I can retire after I bust you! LOL Making the 8 on the break is a 1 in 10 proposition for the best players on the earth! What makes you think you can better that? And, how MUCH better can you do than them....2 out of 10, 3 out of 10? I still like the odds in my favor!

Scott Lee

06-26-2002, 12:54 PM

06-26-2002, 12:58 PM

Lester
06-26-2002, 01:07 PM
Lester...This is NOT true. I will be in MD in a couple of months. Let's get together, and you can SHOW me how to make the 8 on the break "on a regular basis"! LOL BTW, can we perhaps make some wager on this phenomenon? I have had a standing offer to anyone in the world, who "claims" they can make the 8 on the break whenever they want to!...bring it on, and bring large amounts of money...so I can retire after I bust you! LOL Making the 8 on the break is a 1 in 10 proposition for the best players on the earth! What makes you think you can better that? And, how MUCH better can you do than them....2 out of 10, 3 out of 10? I still like the odds in my favor!

Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Scott, he asked how to make the 8 on a bar box. Breaking the way I explained on a bar box will make the 8 on the break more "regularly" than a normal break. Anyway, I thought you were already retired. ***Lester***

Scott Lee
06-26-2002, 01:07 PM
Whitewolf...NO BET! LOL I'm betting against making it at all!...perhaps one in 10 racks. That is NOT making the 8 on the break "regularly", which is what Lester alluded to!
Now, if you want in on a bet where I bet you can't make it, and you bet you can (and you can hit ANY ball in the rack you want first), I'll be happy to take that wager!

Scott

Scott Lee
06-26-2002, 01:10 PM
Whitewolf...Pool is a game where NOTHING is ALWAYS best. There are simply too many variables in the game. However, my suggestions are for those who want to give themselves the "best odds" to make a ball on the break, and still control the CB. Different strokes for different folks, I guess! LOL

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
06-26-2002, 01:15 PM
Lester...Barbox or not, as an instructor, I feel it is important to take the unreal expectations out of the break, among other shots. Making the 8 on the break with ANY regularity is a totally lucky occurence...and it will NEVER even approach the percentage of being able to just make a ball on the break. The original poster asked how to do it, and there simply is NO way to do it, without luck involved....and short odds luck too! Expecting to make the 8, just because you hit the rack a certain way or place, is unrealistic. That's my main point. Concentrate on having a better break, rather than trying just to make the 8-ball! If you had said "break this way and you can OCCASIONALLY make the 8 in the side pocket", I would have said nothing about your post! JMO

Scott Lee

Wally_in_Cincy
06-26-2002, 01:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Lester:</font><hr> John, on a bar box if you put the que ball on the right side (about an inch and a half from the rail) you strike the second ball on the right side of the stack using low left - HARD. The eight ball goes in the left hand side pocket. You've got to play with it until you get the correct combination of power and angle. But you can make it on a regular basis. ***Lester*** <hr></blockquote>

I agree, if you consider 5% "regular"

Anyway don't y'all think the Sardo Rack makes it more difficult?

I've watched 4 tapes of the Accu-stats Invitational 8-ball tourney-about 65 games total. They use the Sardo and so far only one "8 on the snap" out of 65.

Efren did it and the 8-ball was kicked up into the corner at the head rail.

06-26-2002, 01:23 PM
My understanding of the BCA rules is that you can't win by making the 8 on the break, but can lose if you also scratch. Saw a barpool playoff match last nite between 2 very good teams, and one team decided to use the soft break strategy. The other team players usually play 9-ball for $$ at the pool hall. guess they thought, they wouldn't have the patience to deal with the resultant clusters. worked for an early 3/0 lead, but they eventually lost, in a well played match. So, who's still paying off on an 8 ball break??

jjinfla
06-26-2002, 01:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> I'm betting against making it at all!...perhaps one in 10 racks. That is NOT making the 8 on the break "regularly", which is what Lester alluded to!
Scott <hr></blockquote>
Hi guys, You both have to admit that when you hit the second ball you consistently get the 8 ball to move toward the side pocket. How many times it goes in I don't know but I think 1 in 10 odds is a lot better than 0 in 10. The balls break pretty good if you are able to draw the cue ball into the side rail after hitting the 2nd ball. Mike Sigel in his running 8-ball racks recommends hitting the 2nd ball. And I just got thru watching a video with Miz, Archer and Dave Matlock, the Bar table king. He also recommends hitting the 2nd ball on the break. That seems good enough for me. But if you consistently try hitting the 2nd ball and are not making ANY ball then forget about it. It is more important to make a ball on the break and get control of the table. Jake

Scott Lee
06-26-2002, 01:42 PM
Anon...You're correct...mostly! You only lose if you make the 8 on the break and scratch...otherwise it is respotted, with the same breaker shooting, or rerack and same shooter breaks again. This is just a discussion on the odds of making the 8 on the break using ANY kind of break. I say it is very short odds indeed, even for the top pros. Making it once out of 10 tries would be a "best case" scenario, imo.

Scott Lee

heater451
06-26-2002, 02:31 PM
As Scott says, you are correct, if you are following BCA rules.

However, 'airforce1239' asked for local tournaments, and I've seen tourneys that allowed 8 ball wins on the break, although everything else was BCA (or APA). It's a "local to where you are" thing.

~~If I had to guess, the convention started with coin-op tables, because putting the 8 down would require someone to pay for the next game.

9 Ball Girl
06-26-2002, 02:49 PM
Actually, I have seen the 8 ball go in on the snap. I went to a Firefighter's Charity at Amsterdam Billiards shortly after 9/11. Jeanette Lee was there and she had the firemen line up to break a rack of 15 balls. Whoever made the 8 ball on the break got something and I can't remember. Anyway, she demonstrated how and where to hit the rack (hitting the 2nd ball I think) and she made the 8 ball in the left side pocket. Then her hubby, George, did it too. Now it was the firemens turns and some of them got pretty close to making the 8 in the left side pocket.

Anyway, I've made the 8 on the snap a couple of times myself both on bar tables and regulation size tables. I always hit the center of the first ball from the center spot. Sometimes the 8 ball goes in the right side pocket, or the top left corner pocket. I think it's because of the way the balls were racked? I just time my stroke before putting all the power into it so it's not like I planned to get the 8 ball in. Know what I mean? /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

rackmup
06-26-2002, 04:24 PM
Here's the rule (direct from the BCA website):

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>4.8 <font color=red>8-BALL POCKETED ON THE BREAK</font color=red>

If the 8-ball is pocketed on the break, breaker may ask for a re-rack or have the 8-ball spotted and continue shooting. If the breaker scratches while pocketing the 8-ball on the break, the incoming player has the option of a re-rack or having the 8-ball spotted and begin shooting with ball in hand behind the head string.<hr></blockquote>

I agree with Scott...to concentrate on the eight RATHER than consistently pocketing a ball on the snap is foolish and probably the practice of someone who loses more often than winning.

I play in a BCA league here in Texas where the BCA rules are strictly adhered to so this is a non-issue but give me an opponent that smashes the rack in hopes of pocketing the blackie and fails to pocket any ball...well...that poor fella is gonna go down in flames as he sits and watches me run out or safety him tighter than than a neoporene body cast.

Regards,

Ken

rackmup
06-26-2002, 04:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> Anon...You're correct...mostly! You only lose if you make the 8 on the break and scratch...otherwise it is respotted, with the same breaker shooting, or rerack and same shooter breaks again.<hr></blockquote>

Mr. Lee...you know the rules better than this! It isn't a loss (per the BCA) if the breaker pockets the eight on the smash and scratches. This scenario gives his opponent the option of a re-rack or the eight spotted up and ball in hand (behind the headstring).

I am certain this was a simple slip up on your behalf. Your brain is simply too clogged with pool knowledge to get it right all of the time. LOL.

Regards,

Ken

06-26-2002, 04:33 PM
Ok i will. But how do you suggest i break? How do i break to make a ball at all? is that where your luck and power come in?

john bastian in pa

JohnnyP
06-26-2002, 06:26 PM
Whitewolf:

When I was a sailor in the late '60's, I played on the bar tables in the dives of Norfolk. One night, I made the eight on the break three games in a row. Dollar a game.

It's been a while, but I think I hit the second ball with high inside, so the cue ball came two rails and violently kicked into the back of the rack after the balls had started to spread. The other balls seemed to gang up on the eight, pushing it up table, either into the side, or the corner.

You've got to watch it, though. That English can make the cue ball jump off the table when it hits the rail.

Scott Lee
06-26-2002, 08:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> Actually, I have seen the 8 ball go in on the snap. I went to a Firefighter's Charity at Amsterdam Billiards shortly after 9/11. Jeanette Lee was there and she had the firemen line up to break a rack of 15 balls. Whoever made the 8 ball on the break got something and I can't remember. Anyway, she demonstrated how and where to hit the rack (hitting the 2nd ball I think) and she made the 8 ball in the left side pocket. Then her hubby, George, did it too. <hr></blockquote>

That is amazing! The odds against it are tremendous... especially in one try! You were fortunate to see something like that, as it doesn't happen that way very often! Kudos to Jeanette and George!

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
06-26-2002, 08:24 PM
John...Well, without knowing how hard you break, I venture to guess it is TOO hard! Most people try to break much harder than is really necessary...and usually at the expense of CB control. So, back off on the power. Shoot the CB so that it travels 4 lengths of the pool table. This is plenty hard enough (on 90% of pool tables) and approximates a 20 mph break speed. At 20 mph, you can break the rack hard enough to scatter the balls, and possibly make something, as well as keeping the CB under control. When you jump up to 25-30 mph breaks, not only do you sacrifice accuracy (most of the time), but you increase the possibility of a scratch or foul exponentially!

Be sure you are utilizing a good pre-shot routine...one that includes a pause at the CB, so that you can decide whether to shoot or not. When you do backswing to stroke through the CB, make sure you backswing slowing. The slow backswing is critical for accurate tip contact with the CB.
What you really try to do, is reduce it all down to one swing. Pause, decide, execute! There's no need for body movement, and there's no need to followthrough any more than most other powerfully stroked shots. Let the weight of the cue be propelled through the CB, using a light grip, a slow backswing, and a perfectly timed forward throwing motion. This is, as opposed to, having a tight grip on the cue, and driving it through the CB using your arm and shoulder muscles.

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
06-26-2002, 08:38 PM
DUH! LOL! I automatically teach people that, according to BCA rules, you don't lose if you scratch shooting at the 8, unless you pocket the 8 and also scratch. That was the thought I was having when I posted that! Of course I know it's not a loss on the break! LOL Good catch!

Scott

Gayle in MD
06-27-2002, 08:06 AM
Hi Scott
During the playoffs in our eight ball league, a guy on the team we played against made the eight on the break TWICE! THEN....another of his team mates made the eight on one of his breaks! Go figure? Didn't know I was watching something so rare!
Gayle in Md.,

06-27-2002, 10:29 AM
Why don't you break using the 2nd ball in virtual pool so we can all learn what gives us the best odds. Or better yet, just email me so that I can use this to place a bet with Scott Lee LOL. I think that 1 in 10 would be too phenominal. The best I believe for the average player (like me)would be about 1 in 50, IMO. For our bet, it may be 1 in 100 tries hahahaha.

06-27-2002, 10:32 AM

Wally_in_Cincy
06-27-2002, 10:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: whitewolf:</font><hr> that was whitewolf - forgot to login and couldn't figure out how to edit. <hr></blockquote>

In order to edit a post it has to be created while you are logged in. Ya can't edit an anonymous post.
Hope this helps /ccboard/images/icons/cool.gif

PQQLK9
06-27-2002, 10:44 AM
After watching Mike Sigel's instruction on how to make the 8 on the break...I racked up and I made it....that was 8 years ago and I have not done it since.

06-27-2002, 01:49 PM
well Les, it seems everyone has an opinion &amp; i'm no different. going for the 8 on the break is a very low % break. you have to roll it before you can make it. second diamond approx 2" from rail shooting low inside firm stroke hitting second ball back (third ball will work also) will give the best chance to roll the eight. forget about the side pocket just make the 8 roll and bang off as many rails &amp; other balls as possible. if it goes it goes where it wants. its a gamble to make but the better it rolls the better the odds. always check the rack. DO Not choose power over accuracy hit 2nd ball as full as possible. level stroke or Q ball will jump off table. do not confuse skill with luck.
our league gives patches for 8 on the breaks along with end of year trophys. i have 23 patches(over a long period) and 1 trophy most in a session, 7. I DO NOT HAVE CONFIDENCE IN MAKING THE 8 ON THE BREAK ONLY IN THE FACT THAT IT WILL ROLL. ITS A GAMBLE---ITS LUCK
i know there will be some mean people say mean things about the above but in my opinion mean people suck so get on a table &amp; show me how mean you are!!!
10 breaks each any pocket double up on ties most 8's takes all -- still a gamble but i like my odds to roll it

Tom_In_Cincy
06-27-2002, 05:57 PM
If you let me put the 8 ball on the head spot.. I can make it 1 out of 10 times (maybe..)

Scott is correct, making the 8 on the break is so rare, most amature organizations give out pins to the players that achieve this rare occurence..

06-28-2002, 01:13 AM
That will be the day when you run a table. This is Ken Kingan right? The same Ken Kingan who can't finish a 3 ball run out? This forum must be your escape from reality Ken because your real game is hysterical.

06-29-2002, 09:56 PM
Back off Tex. This forum doesn't deal well with folks who insult one of our own.