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Qtec
12-07-2005, 05:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Lawsuit claims CIA kidnapped, tortured German man

(CNN) -- A suit was filed Tuesday in the United States on behalf of a German man who alleges he was kidnapped and tortured by U.S. agents for five months in 2004. The suit charges the man was mistakenly suspected of being an associate of the 9/11 hijackers.

Khaled Masri, a 42-year-old man of Lebanese decent, claims that he was taken on New Year's Eve 2003 by CIA operatives from his vacation in Macedonia to a prison in Afghanistan.

While he was detained he was beaten and subjected to inhuman conditions, according to the lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union.

"For me the issue is I want to know why they did this to me and how it ever came about," Masri said in German via video conference from Stuttgart, Germany. His lawyers said he was denied entry to the United States on Saturday at the international airport in Atlanta, Georgia. "And I want an official excuse," he said, according to a translator.

A Justice Department spokeswoman said the department was reviewing Masri's complaint.

ACLU lawyer Steven Watt said in a statement that, "The CIA's policy of extraordinary rendition is a clear violation of universal human rights protections. Snatching Mr. El-Masri off the street and hiding him away in a secret prison was illegal under American and international law."

Extraordinary rendition is the process of moving a suspected terrorist from one country to another for interrogation. CNN's David Ensor reports that more than 100 foreign nationals have been transferred in this manner. (Watch how renditions can work and why they are controversial -- 2:31)

Critics have said many of the interrogation techniques are kept secret and sometimes involve torture.

President Bush said Tuesday that the United States hasn't sent prisoners to other countries to be tortured.

"First of all, I don't talk about secret programs, covert programs, covert activities," he said. "Part of a successful war on terror is for the United States of America to be able to conduct operations, all aimed at protecting the American people, covertly.

"However, I can tell you two things: one, that we abide by the law of the United States and we do not torture; and, two, we will try to do everything we can to protect this within the law. ... We do not render to countries that torture. That has been our policy. And that policy will remain the same."

Skeptical critics say the governments taking part usually don't publicly acknowledge their role in the detentions but are mostly U.S. allies in the fight against terrorism. The ACLU said the list of countries includes Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

Some intelligence agents have said rendition has been a valuable tool for gathering information, but one former CIA officer told CNN that when a country hands over a suspect, it loses control over the informant and intelligence attained is limited.

The ACLU said in a news release on its Web site Masri was never able to speak to a lawyer and subjected to squalid conditions while in custody. He was finally "abandoned on a hill in Albania," the statement said.

A Mistake?
<hr /></blockquote>


Unbelieveable!
Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Cueless Joey
12-08-2005, 01:53 AM
American and other tourists are tortured daily in Germany.
They have to eat German food.

Stretch
12-08-2005, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> American and other tourists are tortured daily in Germany.
They have to eat German food. <hr /></blockquote>

German food is knowhere near as taistless as that last comment. St.

Deeman3
12-08-2005, 01:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> American and other tourists are tortured daily in Germany.
They have to eat German food. <hr /></blockquote>

German food is knowhere near as taistless as that last comment. St. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Haven't been to Germany, huh? </font color>

Deeman
tasteless? Only second to English food....

Gayle in MD
12-08-2005, 01:53 PM
What a disgrace. It was very easy to read between the lines in Rice's statment regarding rendition and torture. I hope every inhumane act by this evil administration will be uncovered. They are a disgrace to the meaning of democracy, and human decency.

Gayle in Md...

Stretch
12-08-2005, 04:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> American and other tourists are tortured daily in Germany.
They have to eat German food. <hr /></blockquote>

German food is knowhere near as taistless as that last comment. St. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Haven't been to Germany, huh? </font color>

Deeman
tasteless? Only second to English food.... <hr /></blockquote>

Well i hope that if your kidnapped and tortured by a foriegn country there citizens don't laugh it off by comparing that with the torture of eating American food, wutever that is.....McDonalds? St.

eg8r
12-09-2005, 06:27 AM
When I was over in Germany, there was no question why the McDonalds over there was much busier than the rest of the restaurants in the vicinity...German food sucks and they are adopting American food just fine. Given the two examples, to help ease this ridiculous discussion for you, maybe American food is a little less torturous than German food. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Deeman3
12-09-2005, 06:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> Well i hope that if your kidnapped and tortured by a foriegn country there citizens don't laugh it off by comparing that with the torture of eating American food, wutever that is.....McDonalds? St. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Yes, that would really offend me. Probably to the extent that the torture would be secondary. Torture is one thing, not being politically correct is, indeed, much worse. </font color>

Stretch
12-09-2005, 07:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> Well i hope that if your kidnapped and tortured by a foriegn country there citizens don't laugh it off by comparing that with the torture of eating American food, wutever that is.....McDonalds? St. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Yes, that would really offend me. Probably to the extent that the torture would be secondary. Torture is one thing, not being politically correct is, indeed, much worse. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

.....i give up, and u wonder why American tourists are hated around the world. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif St.

Deeman3
12-09-2005, 07:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>

.....i give up, and u wonder why American tourists are hated around the world. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif St. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Good, I wore you down. Now, please understand that I know why American tourists are hated around the world and not well loved, like Canadian tourists. It is because some of us don't like German food, right? If we jump on the Wienerschnitzel bandwagon we will once again be the beloved tourists we once were, like during some democratic administration?

One of us makes a small comment about a particular food during a discussion on alledged kidnapping and torture and we have offended the other 210 countries and territories. Islamic terrorists are beheading people let and right around the world and that gets a pass.

We were hated by most for a long time. Little cracks about food may not be the issue. Comments about bad food during a debate on torture is in bad taste only from the right. That's more the issue. You can refer to our president as a chimp, put out every possible baseless allegation as truth but a little comment about bad German food and you are offended.

Now you have me afraid to travel to Canada as they might stone me at the border. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

Qtec
12-09-2005, 08:56 AM
If you dont have the rule of Law -you dont have a Democracy or freedom. Everyone knows Condi is not telling the truth. She is trying to be smart when she should be being honest.
The people[ ie GW and Co] who claim G-d is on their side are now kidnapping, disapearing, torturing and convicting people on the basis of confessions that are obtained under torure.
They are breaking every international law there is and the American people cant/wont do anything about it. When the Govt is challenged on these abuses, all we get is the WoT/Nat Security rhetoric - this when 1000,s of unknowns are walking into the US every year thru the Mex-US border!

To win the WoT you need to win hearts and minds. This admin doesnt understand this because everything it seems to do turns more and more against the US.
One might think that ever since the first day in Iraq when they allowed the country to be plundered to the latest PR disaster that they want this conflict continue.

They dont want to leave the region.

Q

Gayle in MD
12-09-2005, 09:17 AM
Stretch, you are so right. Here we have a thread about torture, and you can see the level of intellect displayed here by the right. What more could you expect from supporters of Bush, dwindling though they may be. Try not to judge all Americans by the few you encounter here, 70% of us know that Bush has no plan for Victory. 70% know he has no plan to bring our troops home. Over half the country knows that he lied in the build up to this war. Even the Pentagon says, "There is no military victory to be won in Iraq." 135 million Iraqis, 80% of which do not want us there, and see us as occupiers, not as liberators. We are spending 6 billion a month, on the unrealistic supposition that 155,000 troops, will be able to contain 135 million Iraqis.

This charge of baseless accusations against George Bush, by those here who support him, and his war, and his failed administration, does not address the fact that we were told going into this war that...
1. Saddam was building nuclear weapons...Bush, DCheny, Rice
2. Saddam was involved with bin Laden, and 9/11.
3. Iraqis would see us as liberators, and throw flowers to
our troops in the streets.
4. The war would be paid for with oil.
5. Our oil would actually be cheaper.
6. Saddam had purchased Yellow cake from Niger.
7. The aluminum tubes could only be used for WMD's (Rice)
8. The mission was accomplished! (Bush)
9. The insurgency was in its last throes. Cheney
9. That 214,000Iraqis are trained, LMAO!
10. Freedom is on the march....

The truth is that the new Regime must win the support of their own people. Republicans must be held repsonsible for all the misjudgments, lies and corruption during these last five years, and the majority of Americans have enough common sense to see through the propaganda, financed by Bush or not, that this administration distributes. Most of us know that things are not right when Bush tries to stop investigations into the build up to his war, and hides from American sight the flag draped bodies of our fallen troops, a disgrace in itself.

This issue of torture may be unimportant to the dwindling supporters of George Bush, and the militant right on this forum, but to thinking Americans, who still value the Constitution, and the humanitarrian values of our country, torture is not acceptable, and not to be joked about, and George Bush is not acceptable either.

IOW, we are not all like ED, Steve and Deeman...some of us still value truth, integrity, and the democratic principles for which this country was founded.

Gayle in Md....IOW, Stretch, consider the source....

Gayle in MD
12-09-2005, 09:22 AM
I agree with you. My personal feeling is that there is a deal of some kind between Bush and the Saudis. Thank heaven the American peopls are finally on to this administration of liars, they have become their enemy, but remember, it is the majoirty party which rules. It is the majority party which lied, and it is the majority party which must be held accountable, not all Americans, although all Americans are paying for their incompetence, and particularly our honorable troops.

Gayle in Md.

Stretch
12-09-2005, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>

.....i give up, and u wonder why American tourists are hated around the world. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif St. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Good, I wore you down. Now, please understand that I know why American tourists are hated around the world and not well loved, like Canadian tourists. It is because some of us don't like German food, right? If we jump on the Wienerschnitzel bandwagon we will once again be the beloved tourists we once were, like during some democratic administration?

One of us makes a small comment about a particular food during a discussion on alledged kidnapping and torture and we have offended the other 210 countries and territories. Islamic terrorists are beheading people let and right around the world and that gets a pass.

We were hated by most for a long time. Little cracks about food may not be the issue. Comments about bad food during a debate on torture is in bad taste only from the right. That's more the issue. You can refer to our president as a chimp, put out every possible baseless allegation as truth but a little comment about bad German food and you are offended.

Now you have me afraid to travel to Canada as they might stone me at the border. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

What a wind bag.St.

Stretch
12-09-2005, 10:17 AM
Thanks Gayle, nice to see the silent majority standing up and being counted. Keep up the good work! St. ~has lots of American friends~

supergreenman
12-09-2005, 11:36 AM
Canadian tourists are not hated around the world. ~ rolls eyes. If that were true, and it's not, it would only be because American tourists sew canadian flags on thier clothing and luggage in order to take advantage of the good will that other countries have towards Canadian tourists.

J

Chopstick
12-09-2005, 11:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>
<font color="blue">One of us makes a small comment about a particular food during a discussion on alledged kidnapping and torture and we have offended the other 210 countries and territories. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Who cares what them other countries think. There ain't a one of em that can cook decent BBQ. Why would anybody want to go there? An quit usin up all the blue ink. Lemme have some every now an then. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Deeman3
12-09-2005, 01:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>
<font color="blue">One of us makes a small comment about a particular food during a discussion on alledged kidnapping and torture and we have offended the other 210 countries and territories. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Who cares what them other countries think. There ain't a one of em that can cook decent BBQ. Why would anybody want to go there? An quit usin up all the blue ink. Lemme have some every now an then. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote> <font color="red"> "We don't need no stinkin' allies"....Specially if they can't do Q..... Say Hello to my little friend....Chopstick, as a resident of Florida, please accpet my humble thanks for illegally electing GWB. May you be rewarded by waking up next to NBG and a chick who can't drive....., let's meet and polute the ozone together some day...Yes, you beat me in the PettyPoint event but I can spray hydrocarbons like a pro....</font color>


Deeman
Blue State, Blue Ink, Red Blood, Brown Skid marks

Stretch
12-09-2005, 05:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>

.....i give up, and u wonder why American tourists are hated around the world. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif St. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Good, I wore you down. Then you don't know me very well. Now, please understand that I know why American tourists are hated around the world and not well loved, like Canadian tourists. It is because some of us don't like German food, right? No it's because SOME of YOU have this patronizing selfritious arrogant additude. and If we jump on the Wienerschnitzel bandwagon we will once again be the beloved tourists we once were, like during some democratic administration? Wow impresive, take an absurd statement,go over the top, then politsize it.Have you ever considered running for office?

One of us makes a small comment about a particular food during a discussion on alledged kidnapping and torture and we have offended the other 210 countries and territories. Islamic terrorists are beheading people let and right around the world and that gets a pass. It got a pass because it wasn't even brought up, now your halucinating. And it wasn't a "small" comment. I found it offensive and i said as much to "CUELESS" not to YOU. But since u just couldn't help sticking your wise a$$ mouth in, here we are.

We were hated by most for a long time. Little cracks there u go defending ignorance again about food may not be the issue. Comments about bad food during a debate on torture is in bad taste only from the right. That's more the issue. There was no debate going on at the time i made my post You can refer to our president as a chimp, Halucinating again! i never called that broccali head a chimp. put out every possible baseless allegation as truth but a little comment about bad German food and you are offended. Great, u really are dillusional. Bad food is bad food, downplaying kidnaping and torture by comparing it to bad food is just ignorant and malicious. Spin it whatever way you want.

Now you have me afraid to travel to Canada as they might stone me at the border./ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color> nice Pot shot, but with zero tolerance down there you'd never make it on your high horse. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="green"> </font color>

eg8r
12-09-2005, 09:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
IOW, we are not all like ED, Steve and Deeman...some of us still value truth, integrity, and the democratic principles for which this country was founded. <hr /></blockquote> After reading all your posts here lately, I really doubt you even have a slight understanding of the Constitution. Oh yeah, Saddam thanks you for putting up the good fight.

eg8r

Cueless Joey
12-10-2005, 04:24 PM
One German dude alleges he was kidnapped and tortured by the CIA. Gets a ton of sympathy.
Meanwhile, we ended the torture, rape and murder of thousands and thousands if not millions of Kurds, Iraqis and Shiites.......

pooltchr
12-10-2005, 05:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> What a disgrace. It was very easy to read between the lines in Rice's statment regarding rendition and torture. I hope every inhumane act by this evil administration will be uncovered. They are a disgrace to the meaning of democracy, and human decency.

Gayle in Md... <hr /></blockquote>

What makes you automatically assume that this story is true? Is there any evidence other than his statement?
Steve

Qtec
12-11-2005, 12:43 AM
There was also the Canadian guy who was arrested in the US and sent to Syria. The German was released in Albania!
If these guys are such a threat, why werent they held in the US or sent to Gitmo.
Its quite possible that YOU could be arrested tonight, be given a sedative and wake up in a Syrian jail! No-one knows you are there- not even your family. All they will know is that you are gone.
Under those circumstances, most people would confess that they were really Bin Laden and responsible for global warming, if thats what they wanted.
Condi is not fooling anyone about this. Denying it only makes it worse.
The US is sending suspects to other countries to be tortured.
Two wrongs dont make a right.

Qtec

pooltchr
12-11-2005, 06:39 AM
Q, I will ask you the same question...

What makes you automatically assume that this story is true? Is there any evidence other than his statement?
Steve

Qtec
12-11-2005, 05:02 PM
The US does not deny it arrests people and takes them to 3rd countries. The only thing in doubt in this case is wether he was tortured or not.

You should read this. story (http://writ.news.findlaw.com/cassel/20050307.html)

Q

nAz
12-11-2005, 09:03 PM
wow that is pretty fu@ked up... i'm supprised they let him go, now they have to deal with his suit.

Makes me wonder whats the reason for it, why are the Feds taking them to other countries, why not do the dirty deeds here?

Gayle in MD
12-12-2005, 06:29 AM
This story is not the only one out there, for one thing. For another, Cheney has been fighting McCain's effort on the hill to avoid strictly adhering to the Geneva Conventions, and defining exactly what falls under the heading of turture. Rice, Cheney and Bush have already been proven liars. McCain has been to the prisons, and has done a good deal of digging into the matter, and felt it necessary to step in to put a stop to the torturing. Jimmy Carter, one of the most honest men in this country, has talked with the operatives involved, and writes about it in his book. This is just a few reasons why I believe it, what are your reasons for not believing it might be more to the point.

Gayle in Md.

pooltchr
12-12-2005, 06:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> what are your reasons for not believing it might be more to the point.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>
Given the state of partisanship in this country, and the history of both parties to stop at nothing to undermine the other party, I have to consider the possibility that, with enough effort, a story such as this could be fabricated for no other reason than to further one groups political agenda.
You don't trust the republican administration...I don't trust either party. They all want one thing...to be the majority party in power...and I believe they will do anything they can to achieve their goals. They just seem to have different ways of going about it. The Reps side with big business to fund their party. The Dems prefer to give away the house to the masses in hopes of securing their votes. Both plans suck, but since our country would colapse if the economy tanked, I presently have to lean to the right in hopes that there will always be enough businesses to provide jobs to the majority of Americans who want to work. Where would we be if the US becomes one giant welfare state?
Steve

Deeman3
12-12-2005, 06:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> what are your reasons for not believing it might be more to the point.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>
Given the state of partisanship in this country, and the history of both parties to stop at nothing to undermine the other party, I have to consider the possibility that, with enough effort, a story such as this could be fabricated for no other reason than to further one groups political agenda.
You don't trust the republican administration...I don't trust either party. They all want one thing...to be the majority party in power...and I believe they will do anything they can to achieve their goals. They just seem to have different ways of going about it. The Reps side with big business to fund their party. The Dems prefer to give away the house to the masses in hopes of securing their votes. Both plans suck, but since our country would colapse if the economy tanked, I presently have to lean to the right in hopes that there will always be enough businesses to provide jobs to the majority of Americans who want to work. Where would we be if the US becomes one giant welfare state? <font color="blue"> Maryland? </font color>
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
12-12-2005, 07:23 AM
Well, your answer doesn't surprise me at all, since everything Bush or his supporters are hit with any facts or shall we say, growing evidence, they pull out the partisan BS, and then shortly after that they start calling people communists, and cowards. I notice, you didn't address any of the points I made, only more partisan, political rhetoric.

If you are worried about jobs in this country, it is interesting that you apparently don't realize that Bush's agenda encourages Corporations to outsource, and encourages illegal immigration, which is a great drain on our economy. He has totally ignored the illegal immigration issue because he wanted the Spanish vote. He has cut funding for border security, and handed out no bid contracts left and right, which have eventually robbed Americans of upwards of 8.8 billion dollars. He has driven our country into the largest deficit in the history of this country, and driven the poor and middle class further into poverty, while supporting the Corporations who then out source our jobs. Given all that, how can you think that his paper house won't catch fire eventually. I see the right as being so damn afraid that somone in this country who is hungry might just get a dollar or two that could have been stolen by Halliburton, or Enron, or used to fight Bush's Unwinnable War, aka Mission Impossible, $17,000 a second, and you think that Bush is doing well by this country economically? Man, that takes some real partisanship.

"The Dems prefer to give away the house to the masses in hopes of securing their votes."

Have you done any reading regarding the economic effects of our debt to China, the war, the illegal immigrants, and the outsourcing of American Jobs? I hardly think so.

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
12-12-2005, 07:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Jimmy Carter, one of the most honest men in this country, has talked with the operatives involved, and writes about it in his book. <hr /></blockquote> You must be delusional, or you have zero respect for your fellow Americans. Jimmy Carter is a poltician, and by that fact alone puts him in the very bottom grouping of "honest" Americans.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
12-12-2005, 08:04 AM
I have to say, this is without a doubt, the dumbest post I have ever read on this forum. Jimmy Carter is NOT a politician. He has absolutely no political ambitions. Jimmy Carter is the greatest humanitarrian in this country. You obviously don't know a damn thing about Jimmy Carter. Why doesn't that surprise me.

Oh, and by the way, if someone kept ignoring your phone calls, would you continue calling them back? Although I have answered this one post, since it was so totally illogical, I won't be answering in the future. Your only goal in posting is to insult the poster. It would never occur to you to add any solid information, now even a plausable opinion of any sort. Just insults, and illogical BS.

Saddam is happy that you degrade Jimmy Carterm LMAO!

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
12-12-2005, 08:15 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Jimmy Carter is NOT a politician. <hr /></blockquote> Ha ha ha. Is that what you read in those books of yours? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Hilarious you are.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and by the way, if someone kept ignoring your phone calls, would you continue calling them back? <hr /></blockquote> Nope. That is the great thing about the internet, I can reply to you and I know you read it and I know others do also. Just because you don't reply in no way hinders my ability to post a reply to your incessant ramblings and half truths.


eg8r

Chopstick
12-12-2005, 10:05 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Jimmy Carter is NOT a politician. <hr /></blockquote>


I guess he was just walking around the corner of the barn one day and tripped over an election.

"Who left this election laying here?"
"Well if nobody else is going to pick it up I guess I'll have to."

/ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

eg8r
12-12-2005, 10:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I guess he was just walking around the corner of the barn one day and tripped over an election.

"Who left this election laying here?"
"Well if nobody else is going to pick it up I guess I'll have to." <hr /></blockquote> LOL, no kidding. Once a politician, always a politician.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
12-12-2005, 12:52 PM
One can't be a politician, if one isn't in office, is reitred, has no plans to ever run for office. Jimmy Carter has saved more lives than any single person I can think of. Neither of you has a clue if you don't realize the amazing work that Jimmy Carter has done all over the world for the poor, the ill and the hungry.

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
12-12-2005, 01:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
One can't be a politician, if one isn't in office, is reitred, has no plans to ever run for office. <hr /></blockquote> Yeah, sure. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

eg8r

pooltchr
12-12-2005, 06:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> what are your reasons for not believing it might be more to the point.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>
Given the state of partisanship in this country, and the history of both parties to stop at nothing to undermine the other party, I have to consider the possibility that, with enough effort, a story such as this could be fabricated for no other reason than to further one groups political agenda.
You don't trust the republican administration...I don't trust either party. They all want one thing...to be the majority party in power...and I believe they will do anything they can to achieve their goals. They just seem to have different ways of going about it. The Reps side with big business to fund their party. The Dems prefer to give away the house to the masses in hopes of securing their votes. Both plans suck, but since our country would colapse if the economy tanked, I presently have to lean to the right in hopes that there will always be enough businesses to provide jobs to the majority of Americans who want to work. Where would we be if the US becomes one giant welfare state?
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle,
You asked...I answered. Sorry you didn't like my answer.
Steve

Gayle in MD
12-12-2005, 11:44 PM
No problem, we don't usually like one another's answers. Here's some good news for a change. Christan Amanpor has reported today that there will be many more Sunnis voting this election. This is VERY good news....If the sunnis can be incorporated into this mock democracy, that would go a long way in peacekeeping, especially if they could join forces to out the al qaeda, and insurgents from outside Iraq....keep your fingers crossed....

Gayle in Md,

eg8r
12-13-2005, 06:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Here's some good news for a change. Christan Amanpor has reported today that there will be many more Sunnis voting this election. This is VERY good news.... <hr /></blockquote> No kidding this is a change, and I applaud you for taking such a big step. Wow, you are finally noticing some good news (there is much more but we accept baby steps), maybe there is hope after all. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r

pooltchr
12-13-2005, 06:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> No problem, we don't usually like one another's answers. Here's some good news for a change. Christan Amanpor has reported today that there will be many more Sunnis voting this election. This is VERY good news....If the sunnis can be incorporated into this mock democracy, that would go a long way in peacekeeping, especially if they could join forces to out the al qaeda, and insurgents from outside Iraq....keep your fingers crossed....

Gayle in Md, <hr /></blockquote>

Wow! Cable News reporting good news...and Gayle repeating it! I'm impressed!
(Sorry Gayle...I couldn't resist! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif )
Actually, if this turns out to be true, I agree that it is a huge step toward getting things resolved, and leading to our troops being able to get out sooner. Obviously, this is a good thing. I've got my fingers crossed!
Steve

supergreenman
12-13-2005, 10:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> No problem, we don't usually like one another's answers. Here's some good news for a change. Christan Amanpor has reported today that there will be many more Sunnis voting this election. This is VERY good news....If the sunnis can be incorporated into this mock democracy, that would go a long way in peacekeeping, especially if they could join forces to out the al qaeda, and insurgents from outside Iraq....keep your fingers crossed....

Gayle in Md, <hr /></blockquote>

Sorry Gayle, but I think that's a pipe dream. Only 7% of the insurgency is made up by foreign fighters. At the moment there are Government troops(former or not so former militia members who may or may not answer to the government)indiscriminantly arresting and often torturing and executing Sunnis. Sunnis are not going to like the election results which are more than likely going to be rigged like the vote on the constitution.

Iran is funding and supporting the Shiites who have and will maintain control of the government. (this is about the worst case scenario for the US, all they need is another militant fundamentalist state run by clerics)

Sunnis from neighboring countries are not going to like seeing their brothers in Iraq being trodden on and are going to get involved.

While we're at it, let's look at things that are going on in the near vicinity. Israel is looking at attacking Iran, Syria is meddling in Lebanon and things in Afganistan are escalating because instead of cleaning finishing the job there and getting the taliban out for good, the US got sidetracked and decided to invade Iraq under false pretences.

In all, I think the entire region has been totally destabilized and all hell is about to break loose. Of course if that happens GWB will say he'll have to keep the troops there in order to protect the US oil supply which is really what the war was about in the first place.

And if all that isn't bad enough, someone told me that Santa doesn't exist. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

James

Gayle in MD
12-13-2005, 04:26 PM
You are absolutely right in everything you say, except for the Santa part, of course. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I sometimes think that the 7% from outside the country would be easier to get if they weren't in Iraq. I don't see us getting out of there for a long time, unfortunately.

I think it would be great if the Sunnies would participate in the election, but as you say, that won't be enough to clear up the rest of the Bush mess. My personal thoughts .... it was really stupid to think that we could go in there and get in the middle of the various factions and think that we could change hundreds of years of conditioning.

The problem of militant muslims hasn't even begun to reach its potential in the world-wide scenario. Iraq is chicken feed compared to what is coming, IMO.

Kind of makes you wonder, where would we be now, if we had just stayed the course on getting bin Laden, developing more sophisticated spying methods for keeping track of alQaeda, and protecting ourselves from missiles, and used all this war money on becoming less dependent on foriegn oil, and developing other forms of energy. No doubt, Bush's war was a massive mistake, and has put us right in the middle of a huge mess. Given his massive ego, he won't have enough sense to extricate us in time for our country to avoid the Big Kahuna.

Gayle in Md.