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mworkman
12-09-2005, 11:49 AM
Does anyone have this book? It is kinda spendy, about $40.00. If you have it, what do you think of it? I have lot's of books, but I can't deside which book I want next. My favorites so far are the books by Capelle.

Bassn7
12-09-2005, 12:19 PM
Although I don't have this one, I am a Monk fan. He and I played for an evening once, great individual. As for books, buy "The Tao of Sports" by Bob Mitchell. It is in the spirit of the Monk books and translates perfectly to pool. Plus it's just twelve bucks. It's an awesome addition to any pool book collection.

Scott_The_Shot
12-09-2005, 12:53 PM
Hi Workman,
I would suggest "Point the way" and "I came to win" before reading The Lesson.

catscradle
12-09-2005, 12:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> Does anyone have this book? It is kinda spendy, about $40.00. If you have it, what do you think of it? I have lot's of books, but I can't deside which book I want next. My favorites so far are the books by Capelle. <hr /></blockquote>

FWIW, I have considered every book by the Monk that I have bought a waste of money.

Cueless Joey
12-09-2005, 01:04 PM
VERY GOOD Drill manual.
Worth the money.
The only problem with this book is, you will have to know what the different strokes are offhand.

Bob_Jewett
12-09-2005, 01:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> Does anyone have this book? It is kinda spendy, about $40.00. If you have it, what do you think of it? I have lot's of books, but I can't deside which book I want next. My favorites so far are the books by Capelle. <hr /></blockquote>
There are much, much better books out there than anything I've seen from "The Monk." The last time I was in a Borders/Barne&amp;Noble there were ten or twelve pool books. Browse and get the one that looks good to you. For $40, you could probably get three of them.

mworkman
12-09-2005, 07:25 PM
Thanks, Bob. I definately respect your opinion. I remember in Capelle's books that he would always ref. you when he talked about deflection/throw. I will keep an eye out for it if I can get it cheap, otherwise I will be picking up "pleasures in Small Motions" and "banking with the Beard".

mworkman
12-09-2005, 07:29 PM
Clueless, I do have "Point the Way". In it he mentions the 4 strokes of pool, but he doesn't go into it much. I remember him mentioning the snap back draw shot, punch shot, follow and Spin? In every other book I've read, it always says not to snap back on your draw shot, so I guess I'm curious about that.

Stretch
12-09-2005, 10:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> Clueless, I do have "Point the Way". In it he mentions the 4 strokes of pool, but he doesn't go into it much. I remember him mentioning the snap back draw shot, punch shot, follow and Spin? In every other book I've read, it always says not to snap back on your draw shot, so I guess I'm curious about that. <hr /></blockquote>

Workman, One of the benefits of the snap back draw shot is when your in close to your work, u need to draw the rock but have to avoid the double kiss on the tip with the returning cue ball. The abreviated follow through on snap back draw does the job.

The other application is when you need a fast reacting spin back with lots of action. Lets say u have a slight angled shot. Obviously because of the angle your not going to be able to draw the cue STR8 back. The CB will bend as the angle forces it out before the spin back grabs. If i need to get max bend to say avoid an obsticle or catch a rail target on the way back then i'll use a conventional draw stroke with a long follow through (amped up a little as it's a force shot. If i need to bring it back as directly as possible with as little bend as possible then a snap back draw is how i hit it (but it realy depends on the distance). They are both "touch and stroke" shots so the how's and why's you'll just have to practice on your own.

A nice visual aid that helped me see what's going on with draw shots was this. Think of the cue ball like a Hoola Hoop. Remember when you were a kid you could toss them forward and they'd spin back to you? That's exactly what you do to the cue ball on a draw shot. The farther you had to throw the hoop and still spin it back the harder you had to flick while useing more Arm. Likewise the shorter you had to throw it and get it spinning back the less arm, and almost completely wrist action alone. Minimal arm with max draw is what a snap back draw is.

What was more of interest to me though in this imagery was that with the hoop by useing a combonation of arm and spin u could alter the point at which the hoop would catch and spin back. It becomes a natural thing to be able to do. Like u just throw it to where you want it to spin back to you. Drawing the cb is like that. Only the ob represents the point at which you want the cueball to come back.

Hope some of this helps. St.

Qtec
12-09-2005, 11:54 PM
"Why do I have problems playing a good game against lesser players?

By The Monk

Let me give you a short answer to this question. The true answer lies in your inner values. This is complicated and plagues many players. Some of us cop out by saying we "play to the level of our opponent". The reason we play poorly against lesser players has nothing to do with our opponent. It has everything to do with us.

You are a generous, loving and kind person. It is your nature to be helpful to others. So you feel sorry for players who are not in your caliber. And this causes you to hesitate to deliver your true abilities. You consciously hold back. We strengthen that which we focus on. If we hold back, hesitate or have second thoughts about winning, we strengthen that reservation about the match. When this happens, we find ourselves playing below our skill level for the entire evening. There comes that one moment when you do not want to beat this guy. If you want to rise above this problem, you must address your personal values. The answer lies in your personal values. It has nothing to do with your opponent."

LOL. If the guy came on this board he would get slaughtered and rightly so.
IMO, the first time you play an opponent, the idea is to beat him so badly that'
1. he is reduced to tears.
2. wants to give up the game.
3. sell/break his cue.
4. at the very least, he will fear you the next time you play.

Anyway, how many books can you write before you are repeating yourself and start making things up?
I reckon EVERYTHING that you NEED to know can be written in less than 50 pages- probably 25 should be enough. The rest is practice- there are no shortcuts to proficiency.

This guy could use a lesson on how to hold a cue!
http://www.monkbilliardacadem-e.com/images/tim_map2.jpg

Qtec

Bob_Jewett
12-12-2005, 10:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> ... the 4 strokes of pool, ... <hr /></blockquote>
There are about two dozen different strokes by some countings. See

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-10.pdf

and

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-11.pdf

for one listing.

Deeman3
12-12-2005, 10:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> Clueless, I do have "Point the Way". In it he mentions the 4 strokes of pool, but he doesn't go into it much. I remember him mentioning the snap back draw shot, punch shot, follow and Spin? In every other book I've read, it always says not to snap back on your draw shot, so I guess I'm curious about that. <hr /></blockquote>

Workman, One of the benefits of the snap back draw shot is when your in close to your work, u need to draw the rock but have to avoid the double kiss on the tip with the returning cue ball. The abreviated follow through on snap back draw does the job.

The other application is when you need a fast reacting spin back with lots of action. Lets say u have a slight angled shot. Obviously because of the angle your not going to be able to draw the cue STR8 back. The CB will bend as the angle forces it out before the spin back grabs. If i need to get max bend to say avoid an obsticle or catch a rail target on the way back then i'll use a conventional draw stroke with a long follow through (amped up a little as it's a force shot. If i need to bring it back as directly as possible with as little bend as possible then a snap back draw is how i hit it (but it realy depends on the distance). They are both "touch and stroke" shots so the how's and why's you'll just have to practice on your own. <font color="blue"> This is true. I scoffed at the idea that you could change the return angle other than changing the speed of the stroke. Tim did show me that coming back at a sharper angle on almost straight in shots is possible with the snap back draw shot. There may be some other physical reason this happen other than the snap back stroke but I could not reproduce it any other way in a couple of days in Michigan just hitting balls.
Deeman </font color>

A nice visual aid that helped me see what's going on with draw shots was this. Think of the cue ball like a Hoola Hoop. Remember when you were a kid you could toss them forward and they'd spin back to you? That's exactly what you do to the cue ball on a draw shot. The farther you had to throw the hoop and still spin it back the harder you had to flick while useing more Arm. Likewise the shorter you had to throw it and get it spinning back the less arm, and almost completely wrist action alone. Minimal arm with max draw is what a snap back draw is.

What was more of interest to me though in this imagery was that with the hoop by useing a combonation of arm and spin u could alter the point at which the hoop would catch and spin back. It becomes a natural thing to be able to do. Like u just throw it to where you want it to spin back to you. Drawing the cb is like that. Only the ob represents the point at which you want the cueball to come back.

Hope some of this helps. St.
<hr /></blockquote>

TedKaufman
12-12-2005, 12:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> Does anyone have this book? It is kinda spendy, about $40.00. If you have it, what do you think of it? I have lot's of books, but I can't deside which book I want next. My favorites so far are the books by Capelle. <hr /></blockquote>

I think the one book that may help your pool playing more than any other is, believe it or not, "The Inner Game of Tennis," by Tim Gallwey. Don't be deterred by the title. Only a very small portion of the book is actually dedicated to tennis. It might well be titled: The Inner Game of Relaxed Concentration and Learning.

Gallwey was the first I know of to apply the philosophies of Zen to sport. There is so much that is so useful in his books. But I think none of his subsequent works or those by anyone else has more effectively captured the essence of what really allows us to enter the zone of focus to learn and compete effectively.

Gallwey identifies the pressures we place on ourselves to perform and helps you to recognize the interference of the conscious mind on the sub-conscious ("inner") mind. This is an unbelievably valuable lesson, which will help with performance in dozens of things in life, not just pool ... or tennis.

mworkman
12-13-2005, 04:51 AM
I actually bought this book once. It was used and had little bugs in it so my wife threw it out. I will have to look for another copy.

catscradle
12-13-2005, 06:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> I actually bought this book once. It was used and had little bugs in it so my wife threw it out. I will have to look for another copy. <hr /></blockquote>

It isn't hard to find. How about here new or used Inner Game of Tennis on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679778314/qid=1134483022/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-8664565-5748053?n=507846&amp;s=books&amp;v=glance).

DickLeonard
12-13-2005, 07:27 AM
Stretch the best draw stroke practice I liked was done on the billiard table. Place the three balls in the corner with your cueball in the crotch and with reverse draw score a three cushion pt by doubling the rail it has to be perfomed with finesse or you will foul the cueball.

That shows one how to handle the cueball.####

Scott Lee
12-13-2005, 09:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> ... the 4 strokes of pool, ... <hr /></blockquote>
There are about two dozen different strokes by some countings. See

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-10.pdf

and

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-11.pdf

for one listing. <hr /></blockquote>

Bob...I respectfully disagree! There's only ONE stroke! However, there are many different ways to use it, as you detail in your post. A stroke has certain elements, and if they're not there, it's not a stroke. Not just my opinion...

Scott Lee

Bob_Jewett
12-13-2005, 10:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> ...

Bob...I respectfully disagree! There's only ONE stroke! However, there are many different ways to use it, as you detail in your post. A stroke has certain elements, and if they're not there, it's not a stroke. Not just my opinion......
<hr /></blockquote>
I defined what I meant by a stroke in the articles. Within that definition, you are wrong. A hint, Scott: there may be more than one way to look at this.

Scott Lee
12-13-2005, 12:56 PM
Bob...I read your "definition". I just don't happen to agree with it. That doesn't make me wrong, any more than Randy, Jerry Briesath, Bob Radford, Cane, Pooltcher, or any of the other better instructors. It just means we disagree with YOU! We'll just have to agree to disagree!

Scott Lee

Cueless Joey
12-13-2005, 01:02 PM
Scott, this might fall into semantics category.
Certainly, Efren has a different stroke than Buddy Hall.
As we know, Efren throws the cue while Buddy Hall "holds" it until the "finish".
Then you have people like David Howard and Allen Hopkins who poke at the ball.
Bustamante who elbow drops everything.
Now, perhaps you meant, there's one ONE IDEAL stroke?

wolfdancer
12-13-2005, 01:22 PM
Scott....you guys can't agree on what a stroke is, or isn't???? the whole pool instruckers mafia....don't like what Bob Writ?
I might not be able to describe one....but I sure know one when I see it. And for all the Criticism, re: Allan Hopkins stroke....it might not be purty, but it sure is effective.
I think as long as you are accelerating the cue, at least not slowing down, before contact....that's a stroke.....if you have a nice looking follow through.....that's nice, but as Robert Byrne wrote (I believe) the cueball could care less.....

Scott Lee
12-13-2005, 04:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> that's nice, but as Robert Byrne wrote (I believe) the cueball could care less..... <hr /></blockquote>

Jack...LOL Ya got a point there! BUT...it's the guy (or girl) holding the piece of wood, that get's the CB going!
BTW, followthrough is not something you make happen...it is the end RESULT of a proper stroke (which is a smooth throwing motion). /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott

randyg
12-13-2005, 05:30 PM
A very wise, old instructor once said:

"A stroke is just the efficient transfer of energy from wood (tip) to plastic."

"The backstroke is just the prep-work for the forward delivery."

"It ain't the style, it's the impact that counts."


The cueball may not care, but the player should........SPFrandyg