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Drop1
12-10-2005, 06:26 PM
Every ten days some one is exicuted in the United States. I'm against the death penalty,because it is not applied equally,and is a form of revenge by the State. Remember the twinkie defense,the guy has too much sugar in the mourning,and goes to work with a sugar high,and blows away his former boss. Never heard of a rich man being exicuted. If the glove don't fit,you gotta aquit. [descansa en pas Mr.C]

pooltchr
12-10-2005, 08:23 PM
The death penalty is the perfect solution in situations where there is absolutely no doubt about guilt. It guarantees that a killer will not become a repeat offender.

Drop1
12-10-2005, 09:43 PM
It has to be applied equally to all to be the perfect solution, I would prefer to call it an imperfect solution.

Deeman3
12-13-2005, 06:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> It has to be applied equally to all to be the perfect solution, I would prefer to call it an imperfect solution. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I agree it's imperfect but at least Tookie Williams will not kill anyone else. </font color>

Deeman

catscradle
12-13-2005, 07:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> ... It guarantees that a killer will not become a repeat offender. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree that is the best and only necessary justification for its existence. The only catch is that very occassionally an innocent is put to death because there never is absolutely no doubt. That disturbs me, but I accept it as the price to pay. Of course, the innocent being put to death may have a different perspective.

supergreenman
12-13-2005, 09:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> The only catch is that very occassionally an innocent is put to death because there never is absolutely no doubt. That disturbs me, but I accept it as the price to pay. Of course, the innocent being put to death may have a different perspective.
<hr /></blockquote>

Tookie Williams maintained his innocence untill death. The death penalty is wrong, The government murdering someone for murder is a case of do as I say not as I do.

Then big problem I have with the death penalty is that if the government is supposed to represent me and they murder someone, then by proxie, that makes me a murderer. That is something I cannot accept.

J

dg-in-centralpa
12-13-2005, 09:05 AM
Would you feel differently if it was your wife or children?

DG

supergreenman
12-13-2005, 09:18 AM
That's always the argument supporters of the death penalty use. Of course I would feel differently, but killing someone isn't going to bring them back, or make me feel any better once the accused is dead. And if the wrong person ended up being executed that would make me feel even worse.

It's time to evolve as a species and get beyond this ridiculous eye for an eye mentality. It's been proven time and time again, the death penalty isn't a crime deterant. In fact a criminal already facing the death penalty is more likely to kill someone else in order to evade capture.

J

sack316
12-13-2005, 09:23 AM
I actually support the death penaly, but enjoy reading and hearing arguments from both sides. Maybe instead of support, I should rather say not against it... but anyway here is a little quote I found somewhat humorous from Governor Aaaaarrrnold reguarding his denial of Tookie's clemency (from MSN.com's story):

The governor noted that Williams dedicated his 1998 book “Life in Prison” to a list of figures that included the black militant George Jackson — “a significant indicator that Williams is not reformed and that he still sees violence and lawlessness as a legitimate means to address societal problems.”

Is it just me or would that not fit the very exact definition of the death penalty (sans the lawlessness part I suppose)? Just found that kinda funny. Again, as I said I'm not opposed to it, but I do find banter on both sides justifying their causes to be both funny and contradictory much of the time.

Sack

supergreenman
12-13-2005, 10:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sack316:</font><hr>
Is it just me or would that not fit the very exact definition of the death penalty (sans the lawlessness part I suppose)? Just found that kinda funny. Again, as I said I'm not opposed to it, but I do find banter on both sides justifying their causes to be both funny and contradictory much of the time.

Sack <hr /></blockquote>

You want to see contradiction, just wait till someone brings abortion into this thread. It's bound to happen.

Deeman3
12-13-2005, 10:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote supergreenman:</font><hr> That's always the argument supporters of the death penalty use. Of course I would feel differently, but killing someone isn't going to bring them back, or make me feel any better once the accused is dead. And if the wrong person ended up being executed that would make me feel even worse.

It's time to evolve as a species and get beyond this ridiculous eye for an eye mentality. It's been proven time and time again, the death penalty isn't a crime deterant. In fact a criminal already facing the death penalty is more likely to kill someone else in order to evade capture. <font color="blue">However, one who has already faced the death penalty is even less likely to kill again. </font color>

Deeman

J <hr /></blockquote>

catscradle
12-13-2005, 12:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sack316:</font><hr>

You want to see contradiction, just wait till someone brings abortion into this thread. It's bound to happen. <hr /></blockquote>

You just brought it in. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

sack316
12-13-2005, 12:41 PM
whoa there, I didn't... it was supergreenman! Your quote is off the wrong person somehow I guess, just didn't want to be the culprit of that one. I ain't touching that one in this thread with a ten foot pole and you holding it.

Sack

supergreenman
12-13-2005, 12:42 PM
Opps my bad /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

eg8r
12-13-2005, 01:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm against the death penalty <hr /></blockquote> Say a prayer for all the families that were negatively affected because of Tookie. He did not exactly believe in life and liberty, for his fellow Americans, very equally himself.

eg8r

eg8r
12-13-2005, 01:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Then big problem I have with the death penalty is that if the government is supposed to represent me and they murder someone, then by proxie, that makes me a murderer. That is something I cannot accept.
<hr /></blockquote> To be honest, no one cares what a Canadian thinks about American law. A little blunt but it is honest. Your government has enough problems to keep you busy without worrying whether a murderer in California gets his due justice.

eg8r

eg8r
12-13-2005, 01:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You want to see contradiction, just wait till someone brings abortion into this thread. It's bound to happen. <hr /></blockquote> You just did. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
12-13-2005, 01:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
That's always the argument supporters of the death penalty use. Of course I would feel differently, but killing someone isn't going to bring them back, or make me feel any better once the accused is dead. <hr /></blockquote> YOu don't know this to be true until it happened. However, plenty of victim's families have expressed relief that it is finally over and there was some closure when the murderer gets his due justice.

eg8r

Drop1
12-13-2005, 02:26 PM
How come it took 24 years?

wolfdancer
12-13-2005, 02:36 PM
Eg8r, there were some unusual aspects to this case. Mr. Williams was found guilty of committing 4 murders, in two seperate holdups....those multple crimes justified the death penalty. As the founder though of the Crips, he had some "status", and when he wrote books for young people, preaching against gang violence, they must have had an impact. By killing him, justice may have been served, but if he lived, and helped one kid to stay straight...that might have been the better good.
He claimed he was innocent....and I don't know any details of his trial, nor convictions. I hope he was rightfully convicted.
There was another famous lawyer in the Bay Area, besides Melvin Beli.....Jake Erlich....in an era when a murder conviction, meant you would be executed....Jake was famous for never losing a client to the electric chair. they might be found guilty, but never received the death penalty. Did I mention that all Jake's clients were rich?
that's the problem with the death penalty...it's unfairly applied.
One other thing I have learned from all these criminal cases
if you need to find Jesus.....he seems to hang around prisons , esp death row...where everybody seems to find him

And here's a neat story about one of Jake's clients, the lady killer, "Ding Dong Daddy"....which proves you don't have to be good looking, muscular, a stud, .....to attract the ladies,
you just got to know how to ring their bells
web page (http://www.streetcar.org/ppf/past/daddy/)

And here's how to get away with murder....in NY
a famous case that inspired a movie "The girl in the Red Velvet Swing"
web page (http://www.crimelibrary.com/classics/white/)

It's a slow day here.....

supergreenman
12-13-2005, 02:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> To be honest, no one cares what a Canadian thinks about American law. A little blunt but it is honest. Your government has enough problems to keep you busy without worrying whether a murderer in California gets his due justice.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>I'll keep that in mind when you're on death row waiting to be executed for a crime you didn't commit.

wolfdancer
12-13-2005, 02:52 PM
when my people are finally in charge, when we left wing pagan liberals take over....he's #1 on our list....no trial though...

sack316
12-13-2005, 03:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Eg8r, there were some unusual aspects to this case. Mr. Williams was found guilty of committing 4 murders, in two seperate holdups....those multple crimes justified the death penalty. As the founder though of the Crips, he had some "status", and when he wrote books for young people, preaching against gang violence, they must have had an impact. By killing him, justice may have been served, but if he lived, and helped one kid to stay straight...that might have been the better good.
He claimed he was innocent....and I don't know any details of his trial, nor convictions. I hope he was rightfully convicted.
<hr /></blockquote>

I too hope he was rightfully convicted, as well as I see your point about writing books and helping others later on. But also as you stated he was booked on 4 murders assumed to be his own doing. Alas at the same time as the founder of the Crips, how many people did he bring into gang lifestyles and violence? How many other murderers, dealers, etc did he breed into the CA streets (not to mention nationwide as it grew).
So which is the greater good then? should he have been saved due to his hopefully newfound ways?And if his new ways were in fact sincere, how much exactly would he have to make up for (i.e. saving several kids today from going into that life vs. bringing in X number of people into it back in the day). Also which has more impact? his words against it, or seeing him brought to justice for the things he was tried and convicted for? That doesn't include things he was never charged with or just plain out got away with. Touchy subject and tough call all around, but I personally think justice was served on this one. Even the guys Mom thought the punishment was correct, how could I argue with that?

wolfdancer
12-13-2005, 04:23 PM
Sack, as I said...justice was served....but the dead are soon forgotten....a life behind bars, and the man doing the time,and "preaching" against street violence.....might have done some good. I'm sure that if I were a relative of one of the victims, I would wanted the "life for a life"
I was just trying to look at it in another way.
From studies that I remember....the death penalty is not the deterrent, that people think it is.
There was nothing he could have done to make up for what he had done in the past...that was never my point.

Deeman3
12-13-2005, 04:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Sack, as I said...justice was served....but the dead are soon forgotten....a life behind bars, and the man doing the time,and "preaching" against street violence.....might have done some good. I'm sure that if I were a relative of one of the victims, I would wanted the "life for a life"
I was just trying to look at it in another way.
From studies that I remember....the death penalty is not the deterrent, that people think it is.
There was nothing he could have done to make up for what he had done in the past...that was never my point. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

You do make a good point. Could he have contributed enough to make up for some of the bad he did? I don't know the man's heart but, maybe. We can all change but I have a hard time going against what a rational jury who sat through the cases and the families suffering. I really just don't know for sure but am glad it's not my decision in most cases.</font color>

deeman

Cueless Joey
12-13-2005, 05:05 PM
"Mr. Dukakis, if someone broke in your home, raped and murdered your wife......"

SnakebyteXX
12-13-2005, 06:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> ... It guarantees that a killer will not become a repeat offender. <hr /></blockquote>

The only catch is that very occassionally an innocent is put to death because there never is absolutely no doubt. That disturbs me, but I accept it as the price to pay. Of course, the innocent being put to death may have a different perspective.
<hr /></blockquote>

The Innocence Project (http://www.innocenceproject.org/)


"December 13, 2005

164 EXONERATED"


"The Innocence Project at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law at Yeshiva University, founded by Barry C. Scheck and Peter J. Neufeld in 1992, is a non-profit legal clinic and criminal justice resource center. We work to exonerate the wrongfully convicted through postconviction DNA testing; and develop and implement reforms to prevent wrongful convictions. This Project only handles cases where postconviction DNA testing can yield conclusive proof of innocence."

dg-in-centralpa
12-13-2005, 08:34 PM
You're right, they won't come back, but I'll be damned if I'm going to subsidize their life in prison while my family is dead. Send them to the electric chair or give them the shot. I don't care which. If it makes a difference, I have two relatives that committed murder. One shot his wife and had a shoot out with the police. He died, whether by police or his own gun, we don't know. But he deserved to die. Another was hired to kill someone's wife. He was caught and is serving life in prison. Does he deserve to live while the innocent woman is dead? No, he deserves to die. I'm not being cruel, just realistic. We can't evolve past this until all the murdering stops. I don't see this ever happening. As long as someone has more than another....

DG

Qtec
12-14-2005, 12:59 AM
I find it incredible that it has been show that 100,s of death row cons have been show to be innocent and they are still executing people.
Tookie was convicted on the say of cons and criminals who were granted imunity [or had cases pending] and a woman who said she sold the shotgun to him 5years BEFORE the murders took place! I,m not saying he was innocent, I dont know, but surely you need more than that before you put a man to death.
The 164 that have been exonerated show that there is something seriously wrong with the US justice system.
How is it possible that 164 men who were considered 100% guilty, turn out to be 100% innocent?
Why does an eyewitness testimony carry so much wieght in a US courtroom when it has be proven that an eyewitness is the most unreliable form of evidence there is! Unless you know the person your are identifying, you are much more likely to be wrong than right.
Is a retracted [alledged] confession enough to prove a person's guilt?
The answer is, yes. Even under torture.

Q

onepocketfanatic
12-14-2005, 03:01 AM
I think we should be more like the Saudi's. You steal, you lose your hand. You rape or kill, you are beheaded. Their form of swift and harsh punishment seems to work. My brother lived there for over 20 years, and by in large, there is minimal crime due to the harshness of the punishment. You want to close up shop for lunch..you put a string across the door way to show you are closed. Your stuff will be there undisturbed when you get back.
Our system is a piece of sh*t. You have money, you get off because you can afford a "dream team". If you are poor, you get a lawyer that probably could care less.

eg8r
12-14-2005, 06:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
There was another famous lawyer in the Bay Area, besides Melvin Beli.....Jake Erlich....in an era when a murder conviction, meant you would be executed....Jake was famous for never losing a client to the electric chair. they might be found guilty, but never received the death penalty. Did I mention that all Jake's clients were rich?
that's the problem with the death penalty...it's unfairly applied.
<hr /></blockquote> Wrong, there is nothing wrong with the death penalty in your example. Failure to recognize the root cause as the actual problem is what you are struggling with. The real problem is that courts are allowing the wealthy to sidestep the death penalty, for whatever multitude of reasons. The problem is with the lawyers and judges that are allowing these people to get a lesser sentence.

eg8r

eg8r
12-14-2005, 06:07 AM
[ QUOTE ]
How come it took 24 years?
<hr /></blockquote>Another failure of the justice system. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

pooltchr
12-14-2005, 06:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> there never is absolutely no doubt. <hr /></blockquote>

Sure there is. How about the guy who was in court down in Atlanta and grabbed the deputy's gun and started shooting up the courtroom. There is no doubt who he is, and the entire courtroom witnessed the events. Why should there be any delay in his execution? There is absolutely no doubt he is guilty.
Steve

wolfdancer
12-14-2005, 10:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> Wrong, there is nothing wrong with the death penalty in your example. Failure to recognize the root cause as the actual problem is what you are struggling with. The real problem is that courts are allowing the wealthy to sidestep the death penalty, for whatever multitude of reasons. The problem is with the lawyers and judges that are allowing these people to get a lesser sentence.
????????????????????????????????????

I thought I mentioned that Jake's RICH clients escaped the death penalty....the implied corollary being...the death penalty is not equally, nor fairly applied.
eg: Saccho &amp; Vanzetti, Vs.. OJ &amp; R. Blake
I have no struggle with my personal beliefs on this issue.....I am struggling however, to comprehend your reply.
Do you just like to argue for the sake of arguing?
If so, I am including these suggestions, copied from another site:
Advice on Debating with Others

1. Avoid the use of Never.
2. Avoid the use of Always.
3. Refrain from saying you are wrong.
4. You can say your idea is mistaken.
5. Don't disagree with obvious truths.
6. Attack the idea not the person.
7. Use many rather than most.
8. Avoid exaggeration.
9. Use some rather than many.
10. The use of often allows for exceptions.
11. The use of generally allows for exceptions.



12. Quote sources and numbers.
13. If it is just an opinion, admit it.
14. Do not present opinion as facts.
15. Smile when disagreeing.
16. Stress the positive.
17. You do not need to win every battle to win the war.
18. Concede minor or trivial points.
19. Avoid bickering, quarreling, and wrangling.
20. Watch your tone of voice.
21. Don't win a debate and lose a friend.
22. Keep your perspective - You're just debating.

You need to be very polite when disagreeing with someone in English, even someone you know quite well.
With someone you know very well, you can disagree more directly.

Or, do you think that your expertise in electronics, robotics, phonics...carries over into other fields like, say, logic....and others without your lauded credentials, therefore must be wrong, when they make a statement?
Or mabe, since Fla is closer to the sun at this time of year, you really are a fair guy, but the **** is getting to you.
Maybe "what we have here is a failure to communicate, some men you just can't reach..."

Gayle in MD
12-14-2005, 01:48 PM
Tap Tap Tap...good post. I can answer your question. Ed likes to argue just for the sake of arguing....

I*'m sure Ed's a nice guy, just needs to take up meditation, or running or something!

Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

wolfdancer
12-14-2005, 02:43 PM
I'm so glad to hear it's just that he likes to argue...
I had this deep, dark, brooding, foreboding, thought, creeping into my mind, that maybe, just maybe......................
he was bottle-fed as an infant.
I like your meditation idea for him...a nice calming mantra,
like "LeMay, Mai Lai, Delay" along with some inspirational music web page (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10177/10177-m/10177-m-001.mp3)
Should do the trick.
it's "Ride of the Valkyries" by the way

Gayle in MD
12-14-2005, 08:05 PM
AH HA HA HA...don't take him too seriously. He still thinks that bin Laden was hooked up with Saddam, /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif and that we are fighting a war on terror in Iraq, /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif LMAO.

Gayle in Md.

Qtec
12-15-2005, 02:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
How come it took 24 years?
<hr /></blockquote>Another failure of the justice system. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>



justice? (http://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/07/national/07DNA.html?ex=1134795600&amp;en=8fb067d0f3f04da9&amp;ei=50 70)

Q.......1 in 5 of the DNA exonerated convicts were in prison due to a 'confession'!

eg8r
12-15-2005, 05:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I thought I mentioned that Jake's RICH clients escaped the death penalty....the implied corollary being...the death penalty is not equally, nor fairly applied. <hr /></blockquote> You did. My point is that the problem is not with the death penalty, the problem is with the judges and lawyer who are not "equally, nor fairly applying" the death penalty. This might be a news flash for you, but the death penalty does not get a say in who it gets applied to. The death penalty does not wake up one day and head off to court and start picking sides based on the wealth of the defendant. It would be crazy to think so, but your implication is just that, you are implying the death penalty is unfairly applying itself to one category of defendants over another.

An example of you argument would be that since "red" cars are pulled over for speeding more often than "green" cars, then we should quit selling "red" cars. This is the same reasoning you are giving and it is not sound logic.

eg8r

eg8r
12-15-2005, 05:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Tap Tap Tap...good post. I can answer your question. Ed likes to argue just for the sake of arguing.... <hr /></blockquote> Yes and you act childishly act like you refuse to reply to my posts, however you will chime in the second another has done so, so that you hide the fact that you are replying to me. You are so sneeky.

eg8r

eg8r
12-15-2005, 05:33 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Do you just like to argue for the sake of arguing?
<hr /></blockquote> If you consider it an argument every time someone has a belief different than you, then sure, call it what you like. The fact is, you have done a poor job stating what you think, and I called you on it. Because you struggle with comprehending my reply in no way suggests I am being argumentative, it only means you lack understanding. This would be something you need to work on, maybe ask for a little clarification. However, you are not interested in comprehending anything, the rest of your post implies such. I am not sorry for breaking rule number 3 from your internet search on debate tactics. The fact is, you are wrong in stating the problem is with the penalty and not even giving any responsiblity to those that actually make the decision.

I think it would be easier for me to understand where you are coming from, so please clarify it for me: Do you always believe if someone has a different point of view than you, no matter what is said, they only want to argue?

These points should probably be added to your internet guide to successful debating... [list] It is time for you to grow up and understand not everyone will accept your failed logic based on face value It is not being argumentative, when the other person is simply stating your idea might not be right If you strongly believe you are correct, your best defense is NOT to ask if the other is argumentative, but rather add more substance Reciting the exact same idea with out adding anything new is NOT new substance

If you ever wanted to actually join a debate, come with a little more ammo than, "Rich people don't get the death penalty but poor do, so the problem is the death penalty". That might be your opening statement, but my gosh, don't start there. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Your side of the debate will fade as quickly as you have here.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
12-15-2005, 07:01 AM
See, I told you he just likes to argue for the sake of arguing, lol. He's mad because I won't argue with him any longer. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Ed can't write a post without insulting the poster, and using condescending lauguage. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif When your opinion is other than his, you are WRONG. He wants to dictate to you how you are allowed to post, and if you state a fact, which all the world knows to be the truth, such as....President Bush lied to all regarding the intelligence, well then, he calls YOU a liar. It's hard for him, since he doesn't read, and only listens to Fox, and right wing radio....IOW, he belongs to the stepford party, you know, the ones with the glazed eyes, who think that because they are from the right, they ARE right.....

Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif