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Billy_Bob
12-11-2005, 11:18 AM
I'm no master at 9-ball, that is for sure. But I have improved my skills in one area and thought I would share...

For about two years, whenever I have played 9-ball, I have always looked for a shot at the 9...

-Shoot OB directly into 9.
-Shoot OB into ball in front of 9 (combo).
-Bank OB into 9.
-Kick OB into 9.
-Shoot OB so CB comes off in direction to hit 9 directly or via kick (carom).
-Shoot OB so CB comes off in direction to hit ball(s) which in turn hit 9 (carom/combo)
-Pocket the OB *and* get 9-ball moving with same shot.

I could care less where the OB goes. All I care about is hitting the 9.

I am getting to be quite good at making an early 9. The guy I usually play with is to the point now that if he does not have a shot, and the 9 is anywhere near a pocket, he will hit the 9 to get it away from the pocket and then give me ball in hand. But then sometimes I make the 9 from wherever he moved it to! And he knows the game is probably lost if he gives me ball-in-hand and the 9 is anywhere near a pocket.

I have a new "push-out" strategy lately. When pushing, I hit the 9 and move it close to a pocket. Then later sometimes I can make an early 9. And since my friend can't carom or combo the 9 in very well, I don't need to worry about him making the 9 early.

How I gained the skills to be able to do this...

This is a situation where it has taken me *two* years of attempting these shots and frequently missing. No payoff whatsoever for two years! Two years of losing, losing, losing. But every time I play 9-ball, I always try to get the 9 ball moving if I can possibly do it. So probably thousands of missed shots, but after two years of this, I am getting to be quite good at it.

Also extensive practice of carom and combo shots. I place all 15 balls on the table, then hit the OB so it caroms off the CB and goes into a pocket. For combo shot practice, I set up various combo shots with the two ball different distances from each other. And different distances from the pocket. Also have practiced three and four ball combo shots.

Then practicing the shots from the book 99 critical shots has taught me to recognize wired clusters of balls.

And Dr. Dave's 30/90 degree rules.

What the "other" players don't do...

The other players, when confronted with a carom or combo shot will say "I'm terrible at these shots!", and then they will not attempt the shot. And that is it. No practice of these shots because they get frustrated when trying. And they avoid the shots if at all possible.

The secret to aiming for combo shots...

Pretend the first ball in the combo is the cue ball. Aim your cue at the first ball as if you were going to use it to make the second ball. Then get the cue ball to hit that spot on the first ball.

Criticism from other players...

Other players don't like it one bit when I "ride the 9" shot after shot. And they will say I'm not "playing real 9-ball", that I should run in all the balls. Well I'm getting better at doing that too (had a table run last night), but I think it is more challenging to make an early 9. When other players criticize me for the way I play, I point out that I did not make the rules for 9-ball.

When *not* to attempt an early 9....

Basically I will not attempt an early 9 if there are 3 balls or less on the table unless it is a sure thing. And *never* if there are 3 balls or less and I get ball-in-hand as I'm more likely to be able to run in the 3 balls. Caroms and combos are still risky shots. Of course if the 9 is sitting right in front of a pocket, then I would shoot a direct combo if possible.

Snapshot9
12-11-2005, 11:58 AM
A real good player loves guys like you, they bust them
all the time. You see, one mistake, one combo just a little
off, or 1 missed object ball, and they are out everytime.
Although people can get lucky now and then doing this, it's
like betting a 20-1 up to a 50-1 horse to come in everytime.
Yeah, if it is sitting in a pocket, it doesn't take a whole
lot of skiil to combo it in, and you should NEVER take a
combo that more than 5% doubt of making it with 5-6 balls
on the table that you are 100% sure you can run out.

nhp
12-12-2005, 03:55 AM
Riding the 9 is a common practice for people who pretty much suck at the game and can't run out. From what I've read, you can't play at all and you shouldn't be trying to teach anyone anything. Your post was equivalent to a 2nd grader trying to teach an english professor how to construct a proper sentence. LOL thanks for the laugh. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

stickman
12-12-2005, 04:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> Other players don't like it one bit when I "ride the 9" shot after shot. And they will say I'm not "playing real 9-ball. <hr /></blockquote>

I'm afraid that I would agree. There are times to shoot shots like you have described, but not shot after shot.

PHJ314
12-12-2005, 07:17 AM
not exactly the most solid approach at the game...but if it works for ya.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I have friends that play like this as well, grant it they don't play very often and really have no table knowledge, I love playing them, especially when they want to play for money(which I usually have to spot them like 4 games on 9), it never matters...cause they can't string together a 3-4 ball run and just chase the 9, usually leaving it over a pocket for me(most times I'll just run the table even if the combo is there)

Like someone else said...one slight miss or miscalculation could sell out the game to your opponent. Judging by how you've described your playing style, I'd suggest you take the next 2 years and start working on running tables! Probably be a lot more beneficial to your game!

Just my 2 cents!

Billy_Bob
12-12-2005, 11:35 AM
Well why is my pocket full of cash from the other evening then if you can't make money doing this?

I was not playing a real "super duper" player, but about my skill level so far as making runs goes. We will both have a few full table runs during an evening of play and will come out about 50/50 on wins if I'm not going for early 9's.

Some of my wins were from runs, some from 9-ball breaks, and others from early 9's. The thing which tilted the wins to favor me was the early 9's. A skill which my opponent does not have.

But as I said above, this takes a *lot* of time (years) to get good at.

Cane
12-12-2005, 11:42 AM
The finish to ALL of the following statements is "...I have no other viable option"

I'll shoot a combination on the 9 when...

I'll shoot a carom on the 9 when...

I'll roll the 9 around the table when...

I'll overshoot a shot just to ride the 9 when...

I play a LOT of 9-Ball, not my favorite game by any means, but it seems to be most peoples favorite, so you gotta do what you gotta do. BillyBob, I'm not jumping on you, but when I see someone that likes to roll the 9 a lot or takes combination shots at it when there are other options, or throws wild caroms at the money ball, then I get on them like ugly on an ape. See, they'll get a few games riding the 9, but in the long run, I'm going to run out at a lot higher percentage then they're going to make the money... and if I'm gambling with someone like that, first thing I'll do is say "We're calling the 9... spots up if you don't call it." (personally, I think the money ball SHOULD be called in 9-Ball and even spotted on the break if it falls) That takes their game completely away, unless they can break and run a rack occasionally. I played in a friendly ring game last night $2 on the 5, $3 on the 9, Double on Break and Run, and in 2 hours, there were probably between 15 and 20 break and runs (unfortunately, not all mine... wish they were, but I got my share)... THAT'S 9-Ball!!!

Best thing, in the long run, is to just work on learning to play position well enough to run out. Take an EASY early 9 if it presents itself, but if you can move the cue ball well enough to ride the 9 shot after shot, then you can move it well enough to play proper position shot after shot.

But, like someone said... if it works for you in the circles you play in, then more power to you... just beware of old gray haired fat guys that watch you play for awhile then come up to the table and ask "Son... you want a little light action?" They want the game because they probably have seen that style played for 20 or 30 or 40 years and know how to take a cheeseroller down. They may actually intentionally LEAVE you some low percentage scenarios to get you trying to roll the cheese.

Later,
Bob

nAz
12-12-2005, 11:49 AM
I played in a tourney yesterday and lost to a guy who did exactly that rode the 9b when ever he could see it.he could not run more the 2 balls yet he got the best of me with 4 "lucky 9s" in a race to 5.
I also have a friend who loves to do that... he gets off on doing that and getting under your skin with it. my solution with him is to have him call the 9b when ever he attemps it, he has not beat me yet since we started palying calling the 9B.

supergreenman
12-12-2005, 11:50 AM
And the crowd goes wild!!!!!!!!!!!! tap tap tap

Bob_Jewett
12-12-2005, 12:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> ... For about two years, whenever I have played 9-ball, I have always looked for a shot at the 9 ...
<hr /></blockquote>
I used to play in a handicapped nineball league that had a player like that named "Hotel Al." Even when there was a possible run, he would play position so he could shoot the 2 ball directly at the nine or have a good carom angle to the nine, or even have a good bank combo towards the nine. As I recall, I had to give him a 3-game start playing to 6. One night I decided to fight fire with fire, and ended up making 4 of my 6 nines on slop shots. He looked shell-shocked at the end. It was a sweet win.

Billy_Bob
12-12-2005, 12:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> ...first thing I'll do is say "We're calling the 9... spots up if you don't call it."...<hr /></blockquote>

That would wreck about 25% of my fun! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

(Since sometimes I'm just trying to get the 9-ball rolling as fast as I can and would have no idea where it might wind up.)

But other times it would be fun to call it because I am frequently accused of "lucking" it in when in fact I was trying to make it into that specific pocket.

I'm using shots like force follow which my opponent may know nothing about, and would not think the shot was possible. But piece of cake for me in some situations. I guess it is the force follow shots mostly which get called "luck" the most. It is not luck, but I don't care what they say.

Scott Lee
12-12-2005, 11:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> Well why is my pocket full of cash from the other evening then if you can't make money doing this?

<hr /></blockquote>

Because you only play suckers, who can't play either! Like Snapshot9 said, good players will bust guys like you all day long...but have fun with it, just don't kid yourself that it's viable against anyone who can play.

Scott Lee

StormHotRod300
12-13-2005, 01:40 AM
Billy Bob, you are stuck in the BANGERS catagory for life now.

I see it all the time at the pool halls i goto cuz they have these FREE 9ball tournaments for newbie n stuff, and its filled with bangers who cant go 2 shots without trying to cheese the 9ball.

They never try to get any better or learn to run-out, or anything. Thier just looking for the easy win.

Its one thing to cheese in a money game if its a obvious shot, or the only shot. But anyone who starts to just knock the 9ball around, If i am playing them for money, i will say we are calling the 9ball and pocket now! or we stop playing.

And yea its just how the rules of the game are, but i would put money down that you wouldnt enter a Open tournament with big shooters and try riding the 9 all day long, cuz those guys would eat you up and like it.

Take the Next 2 yrs and learn to run out without riding the 9.

dave

PHJ314
12-13-2005, 08:12 AM
Why would you make someone call the 9? I don't think I'd ever do that to anyone, I'd just play them and let them chase that 9 all day, grant it I'd be a little more rude with my hooks...I'd go for 3 hooks all day long. Or play a safety breaks, If I were playing someone for money that did this, I wouldn't let it get under my skin, I'd just frustrate him, get under his skin....chasing the 9 isn't the only way to play cheese...;)

Fran Crimi
12-13-2005, 08:52 AM
I'm very familliar with that style of play in 9 Ball. In fact, I've even given it a name...I call it 'Avoidance Pool." It's not really that abnormal for a player to go through that phase. I think I went through it a little myself. It originates out of frustration in having to play position in a rotation game. It's hard and it's frustrating. Plus, those long shots are a killer, aren't they? So the player starts to wonder if there isn't an easier way to win.

Most players will try riding the 9 for a while and then realize that it's hard stuff too, and the consequences of missing are often bad. However, with Billy Bob's propensity for hard work, I'm sure he decided to take the plunge and study the art of kicks, combinations and caroms.

You probably picked up some good information and it will definitely come in handy for you in the future....HOWEVER...

You can't avoid long shots and position play forever. You're going to have to face those demons at some point, because in the end, the best position players are the ones who win the most.

Fran

wolfdancer
12-13-2005, 10:27 AM
Billy Bob, I notice that your posts are in an instructional style...and while I applaud you for trying to share your "pool secrets" that you have worked on for the past two years....without any known credentials...your suggestions might not be taken "ex-cathreda".
Take this riding the nine, for example....for most people, a low percentage means of winning....since you have worked so diligently on this strategy, you might win more games doing this, then say, the avg player.
But rather then trying the 3 rail kick combo....whatever happened to that vaunted safety game that you have...(from your earlier post) ?
Seems like you might have better luck, 3-fouling the other guy.
Since you live in Oregon, you should try playing in tournaments that feature some of the better regional players...Glenn Atwell, Pat Shumacher, Mike Zimmerman, Mike Jensen, etc....and see how your game stacks up against them.
Keep working on your game though, and you might have to give these guys the 7...wish I had your dedication.
PS....I'd expect Scott Lee to be chasing the nine...because them that can't.....teach !!

Bob_Jewett
12-13-2005, 10:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> ... I'm using shots like force follow which my opponent may know nothing about, and would not think the shot was possible. But piece of cake for me in some situations. I guess it is the force follow shots mostly which get called "luck" the most. It is not luck, but I don't care what they say.
<hr /></blockquote>
Contrary to what some others have said, for a certain level of player, if the goal is to win the game, the right shot is often to ride the nine. Maybe you're at that point in your career, but you should be aware that as you get better, the odds will favor trying to run out.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Four balls are left on the table. The six is on the foot spot, the seven is by the side pocket, the eight is near the headstring almost frozen to that same side rail, and the nine is on the center of the foot rail. Cue ball is in hand. For many players, this run is nearly impossible. There is no way for them to get from the eight to the nine. Before you say, nobody plays that bad, let me assure you that MOST people who play pool do play that badly. I remember when I played that badly. Their main chance to win this game if they choose the run, is to bank the nine at the end. The better choice for such people is to set up the cue ball to bank the six into the nine. If they miss the nine entirely, their opponent -- presumably of the same level -- also has no chance to get from the eight to the nine.

But, Billy Bob, I'm wondering what you mean by "force follow." I'd think that all your opponents would know how to follow the ball. Can you give an example?

Billy_Bob
12-13-2005, 11:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> ...I'm wondering what you mean by "force follow." I'd think that all your opponents would know how to follow the ball. Can you give an example? <hr /></blockquote>

Many players in my area know about using follow, but they can't use follow to leave the CB at a specific place at will (As in just a short distance or at far end of table), and this is because they don't understand follow nor do they practice these things.

For force follow, I mean the following shot. Very few players in my area can do this shot, nor do they understand what is going on, nor do they realize how handy this shot is. Many times there is a cluster in that area, so this shot (and similar shots) is a good way to make a ball and break up a cluster at the same time. (Or make the 9.) You need to follow through with your stroke like there is no tomorrow for this shot...

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wolfdancer
12-13-2005, 11:41 AM
Not exactly the shot I would use as an example of force follow, but it is a useful shot

Bob_Jewett
12-13-2005, 11:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>...

For force follow, I mean the following shot. Very few players in my area can do this shot, nor do they understand what is going on, nor do they realize how handy this shot is. ... You need to follow through with your stroke like there is no tomorrow for this shot ... <hr /></blockquote>
Actually, while good speed is needed, you don't have to either follow through or hit the cue ball particularly high for this shot on many tables. The cloth will give the cue ball plenty of follow, and as long as you hit the object ball fairly full, the cue ball is guaranteed to return to the cushion.

I usually reserve the term "force follow" for situations where the cue ball is close to the object ball, but maybe that's a regional thing.

Billy_Bob
12-13-2005, 12:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> ...Since you live in Oregon, you should try playing in tournaments that feature some of the better regional players...Glenn Atwell, Pat Shumacher, Mike Zimmerman, Mike Jensen, etc....and see how your game stacks up against them....<hr /></blockquote>

I would be sitting in the "electric chair" playing these guys! They are *way* out of my league. I saw a guy named JD from Seattle playing in a pro tournament and he was keeping the pros in the chair. So I thought that was amazing.

Also I'm a 7 ft. table player and have decided to play only on 7 ft. bar tables. That is because I live in a rural area and almost every tournament around here is held on bar tables. So it would be foolish for me to enter a tournament which uses regulation tables being as I don't practice/play on them.

I have tried before and just don't play well on them. I've been told I can get to where I can play on anything, but I would need a lot of time on a regulation table first.

But I am happy playing on 7 ft. tables and playing in 7 ft. table tournaments for now. There are plenty of excellent players in the large cities who can leave me in the dust, so I think I have years of future fun and challenge just playing on 7 ft. tables.

BTW, I expected everyone to chastise me for suggesting riding the 9. But I am not much of a "follow the pack" type of person, so not a problem for me. Plus I learn a *lot* when I post something which others feel is wrong, and they then correct me! The purpose of my post was simply to say I am getting good at it, this is how I got good at it, and this is how long it takes to get good at it. So people can take it or leave it, but if interested in learning this, this is how *I* did it.

Billy_Bob
12-13-2005, 12:08 PM
For "force follow", I go by the definition on the link below. "extreme overspin applied to the cue ball"...

http://www.billiardworld.com/glossary.html

Billy_Bob
12-13-2005, 12:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I'm very familliar with that style of play in 9 Ball. In fact, I've even given it a name...I call it 'Avoidance Pool." It's not really that abnormal for a player to go through that phase. I think I went through it a little myself. It originates out of frustration in having to play position in a rotation game. It's hard and it's frustrating. Plus, those long shots are a killer, aren't they? So the player starts to wonder if there isn't an easier way to win... <hr /></blockquote>

Well there is another way to look at it...

You can do steps A, B, C, and D.

Or you can go directly from A to D, bypass the steps in-between, and save time and energy. Get the end goal completed most efficiently if you will!

So this is what I am thinking. And I guess this comes from my training in business management. They tell you to not "micromanage" employees. Don't tell them *how* to do their job. Tell them what the goal is, then let them accomplish that goal in their own way. So long as the task is completed, then good work!

The way I look at it, I am accomplishing my goal - to win. And I am doing it in fewer steps than other people. So I am winning with a more efficient method.

Also the challenge. I am a "thinking" type person. I feel it is "boring" to run in each ball then the 9. But it is quite a challenge to study the table and try to find a way to make the 9-ball early. It is a puzzle to me. An intellectual challenge.

I guess you could say I am playing 9-ball *and* carom billiards at the same time. I am hitting my ball and also hitting the 9 with the same shot.

P.S. As to my safety play mentioned in another person's reply. I am practicing that only when playing 8-ball.

wolfdancer
12-13-2005, 12:48 PM
Hey, nothing wrong with playing on 7 ft'rs....I played and enjoyed league play on those for many years. Most of the tournament play here is on 8ft'rs....and I'm lucky enough to have my own 9 ft'r to practice on.
I go down and watch the BCA events at Chinook Winds in Lincoln City, Or. played on 7 ft'rs
I forgot about JD....great player....and I just got waxed recently by Dan Louie, another fine player.
Your force follow defination is correct...but like Bob Jewett says...we usually think of that shot as the cueball and object ball near each other, and a full hit is required to pocket the OB.....and good topspin is needed to get the cueball to the other end of the table...

wolfdancer
12-13-2005, 01:09 PM
Billy Bob, I mentioned safety play, and I think it becomes more of a factor in 9 ball, then in 8 ball. In nine ball, you need only safe one ball.....one good safety, might win you the game.
I think I became better at playing safe in 8-ball, by having to play safe in 9 ball
I don't like to give "pool advice" since I'm way down on the skill ladder....bottom rung, I believe...but
in nine ball...a good safety might allow you to send the correct ball down near the nine, while locking up the cueball.....then having an easy nine ball combo....fits right in with your game plan.
Of the following three games
8-ball
9-ball
one pocket
I believe the importance of safety play goes up from 8-ball to one pocket
And perhaps the most important game to play safe in is "golf"....the other guys will likely break your thumbs, if you pass up a safety, and sell out.....

Eric.
12-13-2005, 02:08 PM
Billy bob,

IMO, your strategy can work, especially on small tables, in short races (race to 5) against people taht rarely run more than 3-4 balls in a row. Truthfully, there isn't a huge penalty when you miss against that level of play.

In my experience, re-arranging balls wildly, cutting the CB loose, etc can lead to more opportunities for your opponents that can run out the rack with any open shot, than wins for you. In higher level play, the key to winning is table control. You don't want to leave anything to chance. If you can, always leave the table with a win or kick. Try not to leave on a miss.

I try to watch the top players. It seems like when they are playing at the top of their game, they can control a match like nobody's business. That doesn't neccesarily mean they are just running rack, after rack. Basically, they leave the opponent nothing but kicks and low percentage shots (from the 2 ways shots they played). If you think about it, the odds are in your favor to win if your opponent does nothing but take low percentage shots everytime they get to the table.

Good luck with your game.


Eric

Eric.
12-13-2005, 02:14 PM
Here's another strategy to try:

Everytime you have a shot that you think is less than a 80% make for you and there is a safety available that doesn't take to much magic to accomplish, shoot the safety. Basically, give up more shots when you can tuck the CB in somewhere, even if you think you can make the shot. See how many times you can get ball in hand. If you get ball in hand, you should be able to get on the next ball /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Eric

Keith Talent
12-13-2005, 08:21 PM
Hey, maybe you're on to something. It DOES make me wonder if you are when I see 3 or 4 reputedly decent players saying they'd make you call the 9! If it weren't a possibly winning strategy they'd just let you bury yourself.

I think it would probably loosen me up, seeing you wail away like that ... on a 9-footer, at least. And on a 7-footer I'd think you'd scratch some.

Only time I'd do it is if it's early in the rack, there's no good offensive shot AND I know the other guy can't run 3 friggin balls.

Billy_Bob
12-14-2005, 09:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Keith Talent:</font><hr> Hey, maybe you're on to something. It DOES make me wonder if you are when I see 3 or 4 reputedly decent players saying they'd make you call the 9! If it weren't a possibly winning strategy they'd just let you bury yourself... <hr /></blockquote>

Correct. The better players DO NOT like anyone playing this way. I did beat one of the best players around here in a race to 3 9-ball tournament. I got him twice in a row with early 9's. This was a couple of years ago. And then the criticism started... "You don't know how to play 9-ball right, bla bla". The better players were screaming like stuck pigs.

So that got me to thinking that if they don't like me playing this way, then this is the way I should learn to play!

Scratching...
I have studied Dr. Dave's DVD, and this keeps me from scratching pretty much lately.

Safeties...
I do play safeties in 9-ball. I practiced 9-ball safeties a long time ago. This is different from 8-ball safety play. And I do use them as part of my strategy. I push out by moving the 9-ball closer to a pocket and leaving a difficult shot on the 1. Then when I get a chance, I try to get ball-in-hand. Then I go for the 9. So I always hit the 9 for a push-out and move it to a better spot. But not too good. I make it a potential combo I can make but that my opponent can't make.

My combos require *extreme* accuracy. I practice on a table which is quadruple shimmed. And some of the following drills got me to where I can shoot very accurate shots if I carefully aim. (Also I practice progressive combos)...
http://www.geocities.com/billybobnospam/basic_daily_practice.html

Billy_Bob
12-14-2005, 10:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> ...I don't like to give "pool advice" since I'm way down on the skill ladder....bottom rung, I believe...<hr /></blockquote>

I like to hear what everyone has to say. I value *your* advice and everyone else's advice.

Also beginning players like myself are learning new things, and how I learned to do these things is fresh in my mind. So if I do something now which helps my game, well then now is the best time to tell others about my success. 10 years from now I might forget how I learned to do some things.

And the *last* people who will give me accurate advice many times is a pro. They do not want to share their secrets. I have some videos where pros are "teaching shots" but they leave out a few little important details!

I've learned the most from people who are not pros. Jimmy Reid is an exception. He tells it like it is.

And it does not matter if someone gives advice which does not work. I can try myself the different things which people suggest, then use what works best for *me*. And this is how I learn - trying different things, experimenting.

So thank you for your advice!

Stretch
12-14-2005, 10:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> ...I don't like to give "pool advice" since I'm way down on the skill ladder....bottom rung, I believe...<hr /></blockquote>

I like to hear what everyone has to say. I value *your* advice and everyone else's advice.

Also beginning players like myself are learning new things, and how I learned to do these things is fresh in my mind. So if I do something now which helps my game, well then now is the best time to tell others about my success. 10 years from now I might forget how I learned to do some things.

And the *last* people who will give me accurate advice many times is a pro. They do not want to share their secrets. I have some videos where pros are "teaching shots" but they leave out a few little important details!

I've learned the most from people who are not pros. Jimmy Reid is an exception. He tells it like it is.

And it does not matter if someone gives advice which does not work. I can try myself the different things which people suggest, then use what works best for *me*. And this is how I learn - trying different things, experimenting.

So thank you for your advice!

<hr /></blockquote>

Billy, u might like to try this game, or use it as a drill yourself. Rack the balls up (any order) break them. Then useing any ball on the table u must play off the cue ball to make carroms, in offs, or combo's. First player to make 8 balls wins, or u can just keep track of your runs. It;s a good way of working on those shots. St.

wolfdancer
12-14-2005, 11:23 AM
Stretch, I have perfected the "in-off"...unfortunately, I am playing 8 or 9 ball, and not English Billiards.



(Keep it between the white lines...and have a nice holiday Season up there)

TedKaufman
12-14-2005, 11:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>
The way I look at it, I am accomplishing my goal - to win. And I am doing it in fewer steps than other people. So I am winning with a more efficient method.

Also the challenge. I am a "thinking" type person. I feel it is "boring" to run in each ball then the 9. But it is quite a challenge to study the table and try to find a way to make the 9-ball early. It is a puzzle to me. An intellectual challenge. <hr /></blockquote>

While certainly it upsets "9-ball purists," (please pardon the term--it does seem an incongruous pairing of words) there is some merit to your strategy for ending a 9-ball game early. After all, the object of the game is to knock the nine in the hole to win the game. If you can do it in one shot or two, it IS more efficient--no question.

Many players in the league I play in frown upon taking an early shot at the 9-ball; they feel it's "right" to run the rack properly. I think that is silly, though. 9-ball is by its nature a stupid game, strongly influenced by luck. So when you have the opportunity to kick the nine in early, go for it.

However--and I say this grudgingly, because as you might have guessed, I do think 9-ball is, all things considered, a stupid game--a well designed and executed run-out in 9-ball can be thing of beauty. And when you develop the skill to see how to move the cueball to facilitate consistent run-outs, I think you will lose your fascination with trying to figure out shortcuts.

It life, in business, and, yes, even in 9-ball (grrrr...), there really is no substitute for hard work, planning and execution. Shortcuts, in the long run, invariably prove more troublesome than beneficial. That's why, in the long run, even in 9-ball, the superior player usually prevails, and most often opts for the run-out because the percentages are better, instead of dividing his attention looking for shortcuts.

That said, if I'm playing, and the nine is a hanger with easy access to it, I will always look fondly to providence. And direct those who object based on a purist's mentality to the game of 14.1, which merits a purist's attention.

Sid_Vicious
12-14-2005, 11:44 AM
"and if I'm gambling with someone like that, first thing I'll do is say "We're calling the 9... spots up if you don't call it"

I play one of the most proficient 9-Riders whom I, and many others local players say is one of the best at reading and rolling nines early, and I never make him call the nine. Hell, it's worth the price of a few sets of cheap pool just to watch the dude! I call it my ticket of admission. Maybe I don't take money as serious as I should, but I figure that if he's honed a skill, which BTW is unique and in many ways more impressive than runouts when all the variables are included,,,he's "got game", and deserves the respect of using it. Jm2c...sid

wolfdancer
12-14-2005, 02:23 PM
Not being particularly adept at 9 ball, I'm not a purist...but don't consider it to be a stupid game. The element of luck, seems to be high though, by comparision with other pool games, and I have at times used words a little more disparaging then "stupid" to describe the game. It does allow one however, to "let their stroke out a wee bit", and requires both good shot making and strong safety skills, and a runout plan, which one would think to be appealing to a "thinker"?
You might be one of the 14-1 purists, that considers 8 and 9 ball to be shortened, bastardized versions of that grand old game.
Unfortunatly, in this day of "slam, bam, thank you M'aam.....or Sam?" That game became as tedious to watch, as players executing a "rail nurse" became, in billiards....which is why Mssrs. Byrne and Jewett, now write about pool, instead.....lol
No one questions the option of taking a good combo/carom shot, on the nine....but taking flyers, at the nine, at every opportunity....is a horse of a different color. As the saying goes...."if that guy likes to also gamble, I'll send a cab over to pick him up"
"Boring to run nine balls" ???? If i thought that, I would look for a more exciting game,.... like croquet
If it's not enjoyable to play good position while pocketing 8 balls to get a cinch shot on the nine....then the game isn't for him.....because the early nine ball may not be available every game.
Off the topic, but reading the post, I was reminded of William Hickey's line (as Don Corrado Prizzi), speaking about Jack Nicholson's character (Charley Partanna)
" He is a thinker! "

Fran Crimi
12-14-2005, 05:54 PM
Well, there's no doubt it's challenging to the mind to play that way, however, I think in the long-run you'll find that it isn't as efficient as you may think it is right now.

Every time you take a shot at the 9 and miss, you're giving up control of the table to your opponent. That's a big no-no in pool. If you're playing against players who aren't good enough to capitalize on it, then you're just getting a false sense of security, because as soon as you move to a higher level opponent, you'll find that they are only too happy to be given control of the table over and over again during the same game. Once you are sitting in that chair, which is what you will be doing every time you miss an attempted shot at the 9, all you can do is hope you didn't leave your opponent an easy shot. There's a big difference between hoping for luck and playing a well thought out safety.

Fran

DickLeonard
12-16-2005, 07:40 AM
Snapshot I know you probably are not up on Pool History but one of the Great Nineball Players ever, Don Willis, road partner of Jimmy Moore and Luther Lassiter would crucify players playing 3/6/9 and respotting the money balls put in out of order. Some games there would be 7 or 8 ways. Instead of playing for $15 a game they were playing for 35/40 a game. It added up quickly.####

DickLeonard
12-16-2005, 07:47 AM
Snapshot I forgot to mention he looked like the luckiest player alive.####