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SPetty
12-13-2005, 01:36 PM
While watching a match at the IPT, a safety opportunity came up where the player didn't play the safety that Bob Jewett said was the "right" shot, then he described what the right shot was.

If I understood it right, and I may have missed which ball he was talking about, there was a ball, say 6-8 inches from the rail. With ball in hand, the shot was to brush by that ball, barely hitting it, and bounce the cue ball off the rail behind it and then tie the cue ball up behind the ball just brushed.

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%ZC5O8%eA5a4%_D3O1%`G4O6%aJ8O9
)END

In theory, it sounded great, but I tried it a bunch of different ways from a bunch of different angles, and couldn't get it to reliably happen as described.

Bob, if you're out there, is this what you were talking about?

Others - is this described shot a viable shot?

Snapshot9
12-13-2005, 01:57 PM
Not in my opinion it is not. The 13 can not be banked because of the 1, so it greatly limits what can be done with the 13
(a partial hit on a ball works almost like a safety to some
extent). Letting him hit the 13 would open up the 1 ball,
and therefore you would not have to break it out. I would hit the 3 almost straight ahead, and take it 2 rails to go
down fairly close to the 1 and follow with the cue taking it
closer to the 2, and maybe even hook behind the 8. Then let my opponent shoot. He could, miss the 13, giving me ball in hand, or could hit 13 and try to be safe with it then I would have the 1 to shoot at or the 3 in the near vicinity
to shoot at, or he could kick hard at 13, and I would have
balls at both ends of table for my next shot. My suggestions are a little more complex, but provide a
better offensive shot selection after my opponent shoots
at the 13. (Ever play chess?)

Bob_Jewett
12-13-2005, 01:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> While watching a match at the IPT, a safety opportunity came up where the player didn't play the safety that Bob Jewett said was the "right" shot, then he described what the right shot was.

If I understood it right, and I may have missed which ball he was talking about, there was a ball, say 6-8 inches from the rail. With ball in hand, the shot was to brush by that ball, barely hitting it, and bounce the cue ball off the rail behind it and then tie the cue ball up behind the ball just brushed.
... <hr /></blockquote>
The three ball was close to the side cushion. When Bustamante banked the 11 ball, it just cleared the three. The shot is: a ball is close to a cushion. With cue ball in hand, thin the object ball, go to the cushion with the cue ball, and return the cue ball to nearly freeze to the object ball on the spot on the object ball you hit. Begin with the object ball only a ball from the cushion. (Most players are unable to hit the cue ball softly enough to do this shot at first.) Gradually move the object ball off the cushion. I did 10 in a row in practice, leaving the 3 where it was on each shot and taking cue ball in hand.

The shot and related one-ball safeties are the subject of the BD column I just turned in.

I was sitting behind Massey on the airplane home and he remarked that Manalo should have played off the three ball. I assume he meant the same shot. It had a good chance to leave no one-rail path to the 11, while the shot Manalo did shoot would have left a direct hit if it had worked out the way he seemed to be playing.

(edit add:) I'm pretty sure it was the 11 that Bustamante banked, and it was much closer to the side rail that the 3 was sitting on than in the illustration. Maybe we need Deno to do a screen capture of the shot. We know they reviewed the tape for the foul.

Cornerman
12-13-2005, 02:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> While watching a match at the IPT, a safety opportunity came up where the player didn't play the safety that Bob Jewett said was the "right" shot, then he described what the right shot was.

If I understood it right, and I may have missed which ball he was talking about, there was a ball, say 6-8 inches from the rail. With ball in hand, the shot was to brush by that ball, barely hitting it, and bounce the cue ball off the rail behind it and then tie the cue ball up behind the ball just brushed.

START(
%Ar0P5%BD4F7%CG0M1%EG8Q1%HR6K6%Mr8Q7%PK9P0%WG0R8%X G2Q9%YE0P8
%ZC5O8%eA5a4%_D3O1%`G4O6%aJ8O9
)END
<hr /></blockquote> First of all, I don't think Bob Jewett is an 8-ball guru. Bob, exactly how much 8-ball do you play a year?

That being said, that shot is weak and passive, certainly far from being "right." I know Bob was considering the 3-foul rule, but for 8-ball, it's entirely too passive for proper 8-ball play. There are much stronger shots that not only get a snooker, but add value down table for future considerations. That's the right way to play that shot.

Fred &lt;~~~ IMO, of course.

Cornerman
12-13-2005, 02:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr> Not in my opinion it is not. The 13 can not be banked because of the 1, so it greatly limits what can be done with the 13
(a partial hit on a ball works almost like a safety to some
extent). Letting him hit the 13 would open up the 1 ball,
and therefore you would not have to break it out. I would hit the 3 almost straight ahead, and take it 2 rails to go
down fairly close to the 1 and follow with the cue taking it
closer to the 2, and maybe even hook behind the 8. Then let my opponent shoot. He could, miss the 13, giving me ball in hand, or could hit 13 and try to be safe with it then I would have the 1 to shoot at or the 3 in the near vicinity
to shoot at, or he could kick hard at 13, and I would have
balls at both ends of table for my next shot. My suggestions are a little more complex, but provide a
better offensive shot selection after my opponent shoots
at the 13. (Ever play chess?) <hr /></blockquote> This is exactly correct for proper 8-ball play. Except for one minor point. Bustamante in fact did bank the frozen ball (13-ball in the diagram)with Ball-in-hand up table for the ensuing win. So, it is important that the safety doesn't result in ball-in-hand (which unforutunately was what Manalo did).

Fred

Cornerman
12-13-2005, 03:02 PM
These were the two positions:

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%AE1F3%Bq6S8%CG8V3%DR4S8%EN4Q4%He8O9%Kq9U0%PE8H7%U E1H0%VE5H3
%WD0F9%XD5G1%YD4F1%ZC6F3%[E8E6%\E7E7
)END


START(
%AE2F4%Bq6S8%CG8V3%DR4S8%EN4Q4%He8O9%Kq9U0%Pl2O8%U E8Z0%Vr6U1
%W^0K8%Xk7Z9%Yl6Z4%Zo8T8%[p0T5%\l2P4
)END

Fred

Cornerman
12-13-2005, 03:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>
I was sitting behind Massey on the airplane home and he remarked that Manalo should have played off the three ball. I assume he meant the same shot. <hr /></blockquote>I severely doubt it. I think the best play is to shoot the 3-ball down table and freeze or near freeze the cueball behind one of the other balls. Let's ask Mr. Massey and get this shot behind us. I cannot fathom why he would think of doing a one ball safety here.

Note: one-ball safties are very common in 8-ball. But, again, I know I sound like I'm hammering on Bob, but it's not the best play here by far. You can accomplish the same thing with a different shot with less effort and much greater/stronger results. 8-ball novices, do not get sucked in by such a passive play or be doomed to mediocrity.

Fred

Bob_Jewett
12-13-2005, 04:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> ... I think the best play is to shoot the 3-ball down table and freeze or near freeze the cueball behind one of the other balls. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Nope. As I recall the shot, the 3 was not close to any other ball, and a "freeze behind" was not easy. I propose a test, Fred. We get Deno to get us a screen shot of the table, and the next time we're in the same place, we take turns being Manalo. I'm betting that neither one of us plays safe on the six.

While I agree that it's often the best idea to bring more soldiers up to the battle front (cluster), in this case the single-ball safety was better than the alternatives.

Now, where's that Deno when you need him?

SPetty
12-13-2005, 04:29 PM
Okay - um - sorry - I didn't post this to discuss the strategy of that particular situation or whether what shot was "right". I was using that terminology to help Bob remember what I was asking about.

To clarify - what I'm really trying to ask is: Is the shot that Jewett described the same one I described? That is, was the shot to skim an object ball, have the cue ball bounce off the rail and snuggle against the same object ball just skimmed?

And if so, the second part of what I'd like to know is: How do you do that? Is there a "trick" or "hint" that leads to better success? Is it a commonly used shot? I don't think I've ever seen it used, but I can foresee a lot of situations where it would be a helpful shot...

I tried to do it over and over and over, but couldn't. I had a little better success by moving my object ball closer to the rail, but I thought the ball that we were talking about was 6-8 inches from the rail.

Thanks for the discussion.

Bob_Jewett
12-13-2005, 04:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> ... That is, was the shot to skim an object ball, have the cue ball bounce off the rail and snuggle against the same object ball just skimmed?

And if so, the second part of what I'd like to know is: How do you do that? Is there a "trick" or "hint" that leads to better success? ... <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, that's the shot. Start with the object ball only a ball-diameter off the cushion.

You don't mention what usually goes wrong. If the cue ball doesn't come back the right distance, you need to hit it harder or softer -- pretty obvious, so I suspect it's not that. If the object ball is knocked too far away, you need to hit it thinner so it doesn't travel as far or select a better angle of approach. If the cue ball is straight out from the ball near the cushion, there is little hope of taking the cue ball to the cushion with english and then freezing, because you will nearly always hit the object ball too full. Remember that you have ball in hand (at least for starters) so you can select the best angle and a very short shot. It's better not to use english if you can select the angle to avoid it.

Tom_In_Cincy
12-13-2005, 04:53 PM
Bob,
This shot sounds like an often played safety in 14.1.
Although you don't get BIH, coming off a well played safety on the 'open' head ball postion that has froze the CB on the top of the stack.

Also, sounds like one of the moves you might see in a good one pocket game. I'm not all that good with the shot, but the object is freeze up your opponent's options.

Cornerman
12-13-2005, 05:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> Okay - um - sorry - I didn't post this to discuss the strategy of that particular situation or whether what shot was "right".

And if so, the second part of what I'd like to know is: How do you do that? Is there a "trick" or "hint" that leads to better success? Is it a commonly used shot? <hr /></blockquote>Sorry for the hijack, but as a non-professional player who specializes in 8-ball, I feel so strongly about 8-ball strategy that I don't feel it should have gone unchecked.

As far as the shot that you asked about, maybe Bob's article sheds light on the pitfalls and the possibilities when playing the single ball safety. In 8-ball, it comes up a lot in end game play. And, IMO, they're not easy and need practice since they don't come up often in other games.

Fred

Cornerman
12-13-2005, 05:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>
While I agree that it's often the best idea to bring more soldiers up to the battle front (cluster), in this case the single-ball safety was better than the alternatives.

<hr /></blockquote>I have no problem saying bull$hit. LOL!!!

Okay. We'll set it up next time we're together. DCC.

Fred

Cornerman
12-13-2005, 05:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> Okay - um - sorry - I didn't post this to discuss the strategy of that particular situation or whether what shot was "right".

And if so, the second part of what I'd like to know is: How do you do that? Is there a "trick" or "hint" that leads to better success? Is it a commonly used shot? <hr /></blockquote>Sorry for the hijack, but as a non-professional player who specializes in 8-ball, I feel so strongly about 8-ball strategy that I don't feel it should have gone unchecked.

As far as the shot that you asked about, maybe Bob's article sheds light on the pitfalls and the possibilities when playing the single ball safety. In 8-ball, it comes up a lot in end game play. And, IMO, they're not easy and need practice since they don't come up often in other games.


[ QUOTE ]
I tried to do it over and over and over, but couldn't. I had a little better success by moving my object ball closer to the rail, but I thought the ball that we were talking about was 6-8 inches from the rail.<hr /></blockquote> This of course is one reason why it wasn't the best shot. The shot demanded more effort in skill than other shots that may have gotten a better outcome. Better outcome.

Fred

Snapshot9
12-13-2005, 07:16 PM
Well Bob, I disagree with your analogy of the table and the shot. Those shots are hard to get to roll just right, and what happens if you don't get it behind the ball and your
opponent has a clear shot at the 13, for a league player
no problem, for Bustemante, big problem. I still like my 2 rail of the 3 uptable, and take the cue over by the 2 behind
the 8 ball, You see I want him to kick at it, I want him to break my 1 ball out, that's why I want the 3 down there too,
as a precautionary measure for shots after he is done.
So tell me, even if you get ball in hand after your 1 ball safety, you still have to break out the 1 because it does not go in the corner. What if you miss the breakout after
pocketing another ball, or get a bad roll when breaking them out, then what Bob? When you are not positive about breaking out a cluster, you force your opponent to do it the
hard way (kicking at it), and pick up from there with balls
around the table for a good first shot after he is done.

BTW, I have played 44 years, and play fairly well, and have a few tournaments under my belt, including a State Championship in 8 ball.

Steve Lipsky
12-13-2005, 07:42 PM
Well, first, I think the potshots at Mr. Jewett are completely uncalled for. Bob is an excellent player, a student of all games (including billiards if I'm not mistaken), and one of the rare good players that also explains his points well in a forum such as this.

That said, from the given diagram, I respectfully submit my choice; something like this:

START(
%Ar0P5%BD4F7%CG0M1%EG8Q1%HR6K6%Mr8Q7%Pl8R4%QK0Y9%U E2Q9%VP2Z9
%Wp9P0%Xm3Q6%Yn3D0%Zr8N1%[r6N8%\r0O5%]Q4[0%^m4C4%eA5a4
)END

I think the most important thing Manalo can do here is to separate the 1 and the 13 - now. If he doesn't, and he plays some other safe, Bustamante can start pocketing Manalo's balls... doesn't matter, because Manalo still can't make the 1 with ball-in-hand. Once he separates the balls, Bustamante can no longer take an intentional - Manalo has given himself an out.

With a thin hit, he'll separate these balls just enough to be able to make the 1 with BIH. And once he has that ability, Bustamante can no longer give it to him, thereby adding a ton of urgency to Bustamante's next shot. At this level, and against that opponent, you have to force the action in my opinion.

Is it a perfect shot? No. If Bustamante can see the 13 after the safe, he could theoretically thin it on the left and go three rails to "A" on my diagram, leaving Manalo with no reasonable offensive shot (though that's dependent on the original diagram being exactly accurate AND on the 1 being far enough away to be able to miss it). And even if that diagram IS exactly accurate, and even if Bustamante can miss the 1, and even if he does indeed get the cueball to A, he'll leave too many safes here anyway.

So... even though it's Bustamante, in my opinion he is a tremendous favorite to lose once Manalo takes control and plays this opening shot.

- Steve

Bob_Jewett
12-13-2005, 08:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr> Well Bob, I disagree with your analogy of the table and the shot. ...<hr /></blockquote>
The diagram SPetty posted was not the position Manalo had. My comments were about his position. The three ball was maybe six inches from the side rail and a diamond or so from the head pocket. Also, as I pointed out before, the last stripe -- the 11 as I recall -- was much closer to the corner pocket than SPetty showed.

Maybe Fred and I can sort out what the best shot would have been from Manalo's position, but what he shot, even if it had worked, was horribly weak.

I'll try to get a still of the shot.

Bob_Jewett
12-13-2005, 09:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr>...
That said, from the given diagram, I respectfully submit my choice; something like this:
... <hr /></blockquote>
Given the diagram, how about instead playing a soft shot full against the one ball to separate the 13 and leave the cue frozen to the one ball? Is the resulting masse too easy?

(In the actual situation, the three ball was about where the "A" is in your diagram, and the soft shot above is no good because it would leave the stripe in the jaws.)

Steve Lipsky
12-13-2005, 09:55 PM
I was thinking about the full hit into the 1... I like it against most players, but with Bustamante, I really don't want to leave the 13 anywhere near the pocket.

However, I just reread the thread and saw that the IPT had the 3-foul rule in effect. This might change my opinion of the right shot (meaning, I wouldn't necessarily play such an aggressive safe). But I think I'd have to be absolutely sure that I had the 3rd safe somewhere, and that it was airtight.

- Steve

Barbara
12-13-2005, 10:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> I was thinking about the full hit into the 1... I like it against most players, but with Bustamante, I really don't want to leave the 13 anywhere near the pocket.

However, I just reread the thread and saw that the IPT had the 3-foul rule in effect. This might change my opinion of the right shot (meaning, I wouldn't necessarily play such an aggressive safe). But I think I'd have to be absolutely sure that I had the 3rd safe somewhere, and that it was airtight.

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Whoa whoa whoa!! There was a 3-foul rule in effect with 8-ball?? I missed this!! Was there some kind of break rule in effect to augment the 4-ball hitting the rails sort-of-soft break?

And just when you two get me drooling about 8-ball again. How in heck could you have a 3-foul rule in 8-ball?? Seriously?? This comes back as intentionally fouling in 14.1 with a pack that you don't want to break out. Wow.

Chicken Little, the sky is falling.

Barbara

Barbara

Qtec
12-14-2005, 12:17 AM
In your diagram is correct and Marlon wanted to snooker behind the 1 , wouldnt he play it from this side?
START(
%AE1F3%Bq6S8%CG8V3%DR4S8%EN4Q4%He8O9%Kq9U0%PD9D4%U E1H0%VE5H3
%WD0F9%XD5G1%YD4F1%ZC6F3%[E8E6%\E7E7
)END

wei (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

To be able to have a useful discussion, we first have to agree on the position of the balls.

Q

Chopstick
12-14-2005, 12:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr> Well Bob, I disagree with your analogy of the table and the shot. ...<hr /></blockquote>
The diagram SPetty posted was not the position Manalo had. My comments were about his position. The three ball was maybe six inches from the side rail and a diamond or so from the head pocket. Also, as I pointed out before, the last stripe -- the 11 as I recall -- was much closer to the corner pocket than SPetty showed.

Maybe Fred and I can sort out what the best shot would have been from Manalo's position, but what he shot, even if it had worked, was horribly weak.

I'll try to get a still of the shot. <hr /></blockquote>

I was down at table side. You are right it was lame. There are a number of simple things he could have done. There was no reason to risk a delicate shot like that. He could have fouled out Bustamonte easy.

Bob_Jewett
12-14-2005, 12:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> ... How in heck could you have a 3-foul rule in 8-ball?? Seriously?? ... <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, seriously. With the tight racks and the hard breaks, there were very few 3-foul wins. Maybe it was also a matter of not automatically seeing the possibility. The 3-foul rule was part of BCA eight ball for about five years.

The IPT rules are still in flux. The first day of the KotH tournament, it was a foul to position the cue ball in the box with the side of your stick before breaking. They called this on Gabe Owen. The second day, it was not a foul.

Cornerman
12-14-2005, 03:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr>
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%Wp9P0%Xm3Q6%Yn3D0%Zr8N1%[r6N8%\r0O5%]Q4[0%^m4C4%eA5a4
)END

I think the most important thing Manalo can do here is to separate the 1 and the 13 - now. <hr /></blockquote> I like this shot also. I think my thinking would be either separation now, or safety with an easier separation shot later. I think my diagram was pretty close. I agree with Bob that the 3-ball was closer to the side rail, as Bustamante barely squeaked the 11-ball passed it on the bank. Bob? Chopstick?

And yes, Manalo's choice was both bizare and very weak.

Fred

Cornerman
12-14-2005, 03:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> Given the diagram, how about instead playing a soft shot full against the one ball to separate the 13 and leave the cue frozen to the one ball? Is the resulting masse too easy? <hr /></blockquote>That would normally be the first shot to consider, and you've answered why it probably wasn't a good idea. I think the 11-ball had a good chance at hanging in the pocket, giving a masse' or spin kick a better than even chance (in the hands of Bustamante).

Fred

Chopstick
12-15-2005, 07:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr>
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%Ar0P5%BD4F7%CG0M1%EG8Q1%HR6K6%Mr8Q7%Pl8R4%QK0Y9%U E2Q9%VP2Z9
%Wp9P0%Xm3Q6%Yn3D0%Zr8N1%[r6N8%\r0O5%]Q4[0%^m4C4%eA5a4
)END

I think the most important thing Manalo can do here is to separate the 1 and the 13 - now. <hr /></blockquote> I like this shot also. I think my thinking would be either separation now, or safety with an easier separation shot later. I think my diagram was pretty close. I agree with Bob that the 3-ball was closer to the side rail, as Bustamante barely squeaked the 11-ball passed it on the bank. Bob? Chopstick?

And yes, Manalo's choice was both bizare and very weak.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I can't get my WEI player to work right now. There was more than one ball clustered with the 11 ball. It was also a little further away from the end rail. Bustamonte only had a very small channel between the 8 ball and the ball next to the 11 that he could see the 11 ball at all. There was a ball blocking the 11 ball where it couldn't be made straight in the corner he banked it in. It's a miracle it went in. From my angle it looked like he caught the rail a half diamond up from the corner. While Bustamonte was lining up the shot I made the comment if he makes this it's gonna be great. It was a super end to the match.

Bustamonte's first kick at it wasn't even close. That should have told Manalo something right there. Manalo could have just tapped the ball from the other side of the cluster to the end rail and been guaranteed the second foul. Then if he wanted to do something down table he could have.

Personally, I would have put Bustamonte right back in the position he missed the first kick from. Then he would have been standing there with two fouls on him, with a shot he has already missed, and no chance to make the ball even if he does hit it. I like those odds against anybody. And if he had pulled off a miracle from that position it would have been even beter.

Steve Lipsky
12-15-2005, 09:46 AM
Well though out, Chopstick.

I also think this serves to show that the three-foul rule in effect makes the game much less offensive/aggressive during safety battles. And therefore, I really hope they change this rule.

- Steve

Qtec
12-15-2005, 09:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
We get Deno to get us a screen shot of the table <hr /></blockquote>

No chance. He's just going to tell you to buy the video. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
IPT film clip (http://members.lycos.nl/agli2/IPTMnMcomplete.wmv)

Q

Cornerman
12-16-2005, 07:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> There was more than one ball clustered with the 11 ball. It was also a little further away from the end rail. ..


Bustamonte's first kick at it wasn't even close <hr /></blockquote>

Hmmmm... the mind doth remember differently. As I recall, Bustas first foul was to purposefully drive one of the two solid balls that were near the 11-ball up table. He wasn't trying to kick at the 11-ball at all, as I recall but rather he was trying to reduce the number of break out options that Manalo would have.

Was Busta on one foul or was he on two when Manalo made his SNAFU?

Now I can't wait to see that video.

Fred

Chopstick
12-16-2005, 07:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> There was more than one ball clustered with the 11 ball. It was also a little further away from the end rail. ..


Bustamonte's first kick at it wasn't even close <hr /></blockquote>

Hmmmm... the mind doth remember differently. As I recall, Bustas first foul was to purposefully drive one of the two solid balls that were near the 11-ball up table. He wasn't trying to kick at the 11-ball at all, as I recall but rather he was trying to reduce the number of break out options that Manalo would have.

Was Busta on one foul or was he on two when Manalo made his SNAFU?

Now I can't wait to see that video.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I am a little fuzzy on that also. Seems I do remember him driving a ball up table. I clearly remember a missed kick. I couldn't remember it he was on one or two. It could have been two which made Manalo's move even worse.

Snapshot9
12-16-2005, 10:58 AM
A little off the subject, but it would be great if
when the DVD's of the KOH Tournament come out if
someone could 'snapshot' table layouts at critical
times during a match, so we could all discuss it,
and the options involved. Getting everyone's opinion
would make it a valuable tool and learning experience.

nhp
12-17-2005, 04:57 AM
If the balls were positioned exactly as in Fred's diagram, what are all of your opinions if Manalo was to play this shot:

START(
%AE2F4%Bq6S8%CG8V3%DR4S8%EN4Q4%He8O9%Kq9U0%PH4D9%Q E3D5%WE9F4
%XG7E2%[l7W4%\C4H0
)END

The 1, 8, and 11 are in a fairly straight line, so a stop shot on that side of the 1 will give you a full ball hook behind the 8. I would try to send the 1 ball up table near the pocket the cluster is close to. Depending where the 1 stops he might have an easy kick, but if I get the 1ball to stop near the pocket then I don't see what he can do from there. Keep in mind I exclusively play 9-ball and have no clue about 8-ball strategy. I am curious what you guys think that shot would accomplish, and how you like the percentages of winning from there.

nhp
12-17-2005, 05:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Well, first, I think the potshots at Mr. Jewett are completely uncalled for. Bob is an excellent player, a student of all games (including billiards if I'm not mistaken), and one of the rare good players that also explains his points well in a forum such as this.

That said, from the given diagram, I respectfully submit my choice; something like this:

START(
%Ar0P5%BD4F7%CG0M1%EG8Q1%HR6K6%Mr8Q7%Pl8R4%QK0Y9%U E2Q9%VP2Z9
%Wp9P0%Xm3Q6%Yn3D0%Zr8N1%[r6N8%\r0O5%]Q4[0%^m4C4%eA5a4
)END

I think the most important thing Manalo can do here is to separate the 1 and the 13 - now. If he doesn't, and he plays some other safe, Bustamante can start pocketing Manalo's balls... doesn't matter, because Manalo still can't make the 1 with ball-in-hand. Once he separates the balls, Bustamante can no longer take an intentional - Manalo has given himself an out.

With a thin hit, he'll separate these balls just enough to be able to make the 1 with BIH. And once he has that ability, Bustamante can no longer give it to him, thereby adding a ton of urgency to Bustamante's next shot. At this level, and against that opponent, you have to force the action in my opinion.

Is it a perfect shot? No. If Bustamante can see the 13 after the safe, he could theoretically thin it on the left and go three rails to "A" on my diagram, leaving Manalo with no reasonable offensive shot (though that's dependent on the original diagram being exactly accurate AND on the 1 being far enough away to be able to miss it). And even if that diagram IS exactly accurate, and even if Bustamante can miss the 1, and even if he does indeed get the cueball to A, he'll leave too many safes here anyway.

So... even though it's Bustamante, in my opinion he is a tremendous favorite to lose once Manalo takes control and plays this opening shot.

- Steve

<hr /></blockquote>

Steve I see a couple of main reasons why Marlon didn't play the shot you described (thinning the ball and going 3-4 rails). The first is that if you play that shot, the 1 is going into the 13 and sending the 13 towards the corner pocket. That's if you hit it too thick. That obviously sells out the game if you don't get behind the 5 ball, which is not certain. If you skim the 1, you are not going to break up that cluster, and even if you get behind the 5, you are not going to get ball in hand, unless by some act of God you manage to freeze the cueball to the 5. I am sure that Manalo saw this option and had to pass on it. I don't know 8ball strategy, but I know how the balls are going to react. The bottom line of my post is that the only way you are going to get the 1 and 13 to separate enough for a shot to be there is by putting the 13 close to the corner pocket. Even if you do manage to get them to separate enough and the 13 doesn't hang over the hole, the odds of you getting behind just the single 5 ball are very low.

Steve Lipsky
12-17-2005, 11:02 AM
Hi nhp. Thanks for the reply.

I may not have been clear in my post. You are not trying to separate the 1/13 enough to be able to play the 1 from anywhere. You are just trying to separate them enough to be able to play the 1 with BIH. This forces Bustamante to play a real safe off the 13, because he can't give up a BIH any longer for the remainder of the game.

I respectfully ask that you try the shot a few times. I think you'll see that even a super thin hit on the 1 will separate the balls enough to be able to place a BIH between the 1 and 13 and play the 1 in the top right corner. And from the position shown, you'd have to hit the 1 pretty thick to move the 13 over by the pocket, so I don't really consider that to be much of a problem.

The key to this shot is that you are not even necessarily trying to leave Bustamante safe... you are merely forcing the action without leaving him an offensive shot. Make him somehow hit the 13 and try to not leave you a shot; it is a tall order.

With the 3-foul rule in effect, I would probably not play this shot though (as I mentioned earlier). It's a bit too aggressive and you no longer have to be aggressive with this rule.

Without the 3-foul rule, I don't like knocking one of my balls close to the cluster (to then break it up in my next inning). I don't like this because in effect Manalo will be forcing the action upon himself. If Manalo breaks the cluster in his next inning but doesn't get a good shot on the 1, he's going to have a problem because now the 13 is completely in play. In other words, as soon as Manalo decides to break the cluster himself (offensively), he is forcing himself to run out in the same inning. If it works, great. If it doesn't, he's now got a good chance to lose.

This situation comes up in 8-ball all the time in many different variations. Without the 3-foul rule, I think positions like this need to be studied very carefully. The next person to disturb those balls (after my safe) is at a serious disadvantage, so you want to make your opponent be the one to do this.

I respect your opinion though, and am always happy to debate these things /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

- Steve