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loyter
12-14-2005, 09:46 AM
This message board needs an enema.

Some of you people need to check yourselves. This board is littered with a number of pompous, arrogant, self-important know-it-alls. As evidence, I point to Billy_Bob's post about riding the 9, about several posts about people teaching the game to someone, and other typical topics.

While I happen to agree with those who have pointed out that riding the 9 is not the best way to win, Billy_Bob got responses like, "That's how you play 9-ball if you suck." Etc... This is not a useful response. In fact, it is quite the opposite. There were several responses that were actual, practical advice, and those were worth reading.

Another thing that irritates me is the assumption that anyone who is not a "certified" instructor is automatically wrong whenever he/she comments about teaching the game. Sure, some of you are instructors, but there are plenty of others around here who have years and years of experience playing the game. Furthermore, I would be willing to bet that most of the greatest players of all time didn't learn the game from a certified instructor. So, while I respect your dedication, I must say that, as a lot, you almost always undervalue any post by someone other than the certified. It's not like people come here seeking legal advice. They are just here to talk pool.

Heck, even on my own post about the match between Sigel and Jones, I found that my two simple questions were met with, "go look at the website" and "If you don't like the commentator, turn off the sound." I come to this message board to try to get info about the game, not to listen to a bunch of blowhards trying to elevate themselves by running others down. Maybe that's part of the pool culture, but it's easy to see through, and it's annoying.

I personally have been playing the game for 20 years, I have read countless books, including instructional and historical, on the subject, and I really have a love for the game. Furthermore, I am pretty good at it. I am certainly not the best, but I can shoot. As much as I like to spend breaktime at work surfing through this message board, I find that it tends to antagonize me as much as it entertains me.

So there's my opinion. That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.

loyter

wolfdancer
12-14-2005, 11:55 AM
Good points !!!!

Rich R.
12-14-2005, 12:02 PM
Although you make some good points, I have to disagree with one, in particular.
When someone suggested that you go to the IPT web site, they did so with good intentions. There is a huge amount of information on that site and most of your questions would be answered there.

I think you will find that you will find people on every forum that will be hard to deal with, and not give you the information you request. I have to say, this is one of the better forums and you will get better information, with less problems, here.
Take it all with a very large grain of salt and a good sense of humor.

Sid_Vicious
12-14-2005, 01:40 PM
Your points are consistent with mine during spatterings of time periods over the years of cruising this board. I probably got into one of the biggest pissing matches EVER many years ago over the comments I posted about the certified crudeness some offered to the general population here, but IT PISSED ME OFF! First off, I have thought the same as you when you said that the greatest players didn't learn from certified instruction,,,you just said it here first is all.

This board has been busier in the past and I wonder just how much of this brash change in attitude has contributed to that fact it has slowed up. Politics in Washington has had the biggest influence I'm sure, but overall, IMHSO, "our friendly nature" has greatly changed, and novices may simply decide to lurk and never ask a question.

As said already, "in all due respect." It goes both ways.

Good post...sid

loyter
12-14-2005, 01:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>
When someone suggested that you go to the IPT web site, they did so with good intentions. There is a huge amount of information on that site and most of your questions would be answered there. <hr /></blockquote>

That's a good point. I went a bit too far there. Thanks for reigning me in.

Tom_In_Cincy
12-14-2005, 01:53 PM
I wonder if you would come into a pool room and start a conversation with "This place needs and enema"?

Funny how a pool player gets a computer then an internet connection and then finds a pool forum and loses all social skills.

loyter
12-14-2005, 02:28 PM
That is precisely my point Tom in Cincy. This place has no social skills, and you are bringing the average down.

Furthermore, I don't consider this thread as the start of a conversation. If you look back, you'll find that all of my previous posts have been either questions, opinions on something or ideas for others about questions they have had. In each of those posts, I try to be constructive and positive. But I continue to get frustrated by people who aren't trying to help, but are trying their best to point out that they are better than me.

So this isn't the beginning of a conversation, it's part of the conversation.

Please and thank you sir Tom.

Tom_In_Cincy
12-14-2005, 03:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote loyter:</font><hr> But I continue to get frustrated by people who aren't trying to help, but are trying their best to point out that they are better than me.
<hr /></blockquote>

loyter,

They are, most likely, a lot better than you. But you will never know, since you will probably quit visiting this forum when it gets an "enema".

sack316
12-14-2005, 03:23 PM
thank you loyter for a well thought out and sincere post... be it on a computer or not it did take some balls to say it either way IMO, and I tend to agree with you on several of your points (as someone who has been on here for a couple of years now.

What you had to say was valid and touched on some issues that should probably be looked at by other posters... but also I must say that even for all it's faults this is still one of the best message boards out there, pool or not. Yeah there's debates that dwindle to outright bickering from time to time, but you don't really see the "flame wars" or the "my Dad can beat up your Dad" type of stuff that I see elsewhere so much of the time.

So again, thank your for your thoughts, and though I am far from being one of the senior mainstays of this board, I think I can say that in a sense many of us that have been here have grown to become a family of sorts. And as such many of us tend to act that way as well (be that a good or bad thing sometimes). Unfortunately to some new posters they may not realize that, but stick around and you'll soon realize that no matter what is said or done, the folks here are some of the best you'll ever have the pleasure of talking to. Look back through a lot of my old NPR threads and you'll see exactly what I mean.

Sack

Cornerman
12-14-2005, 04:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote loyter:</font><hr> This board is littered with a number of pompous, arrogant, self-important know-it-alls. <hr /></blockquote>Correct.

Fred

pooltchr
12-14-2005, 04:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote loyter:</font><hr>
Another thing that irritates me is the assumption that anyone who is not a "certified" instructor is automatically wrong whenever he/she comments about teaching the game. Sure, some of you are instructors, but there are plenty of others around here who have years and years of experience playing the game. Furthermore, I would be willing to bet that most of the greatest players of all time didn't learn the game from a certified instructor. So, while I respect your dedication, I must say that, as a lot, you almost always undervalue any post by someone other than the certified.
loyter

<hr /></blockquote>

Not all good instructors are certified, just as all certified instructors may not be good, although the certification does suggest that there is a good chance the instructor just might know what they are talking about. Let's face it, there are a lot of people in a lot of pool rooms who are willing to share information that may or may not be correct. But because they are a good player, they feel they can shoot a lot of bull and people will believe it.

As for the instructors on this board, just think for a minute who posts here. Randy G...master instructor and probably one of the most knowlegable instructors in the country...Scott Lee...I doubt if even he knows how many players he has helped over the years...a good many of them on this board. Fran, Bob J.,Cane, and I don't know how many others come on here and share a lot of information for free that many players have paid good money to learn.

As for your comment that anyone who isn't a certified instructor is automatically wrong....I don't buy it. Read some of the posts. There are times when we have had disagreements between instructors as well. (haven't we, Fran? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) We are always learning new things, and the communication between us means we have more ideas to share with other students. I don't assume anyone is right or wrong based on who they are, but rather by what they say.

And you are absolutely correct that there are many great players who never had an hour of professional instruction. But then, as Fran pointed out in another thread, professional instruction wasn't an option to most of us who grew up in the baby boomer generation.

So whether or not you choose to read my posts or any instructor's post is your choice. There are still a lot of members who find the topics and points of discussion stimulating and maybe even helpful in their efforts to improve.

None of the instructors will tell you they can teach you to play pool. All will share all the knowledge and ideas they have. It's up to the individual what they choose to do with that information.

As a group, I think there is a lot of good useful information the instructors have shared here.

That's just my .02 on it.
Steve

loyter
12-14-2005, 04:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>

loyter,

They are, most likely, a lot better than you. <hr /></blockquote>

I know and I acknowledge that many here are better than me. That's why I am here, to gain the knowledge of others. But comments like, "That's how people who suck shoot pool." aren't helpful.

And the enema comment was mostly TIC, just to get people's attention.

Look, I like this board, and I have found it very useful. I just wanted to voice my opinion about certain things that bug me.

Tom_In_Cincy
12-14-2005, 05:06 PM
loyter,

"Tounge in Cheek" intentions don't come accross to well in a typed message.

Most of the problem makers and trolls have been removed from this forum. The majority of the CCB members are very helpful. Sometimes the instructors start beating up on each other, to the CCB members delight. But, most of the time it is difficult for a 'newbie' to learn the culture in this or any other forum.

Many of us have been around so long, most of our posts have been deleted when this new BBB.threads™ was installed a few years ago. Some of the old posters didn't like the new format and just stopped posting altogether.

Yes, CCB has it assholes. I can be one when someone attacts this forum or one of its posters.

Try a little harder to understand that everyone one on this forum has the same goals 'learn and share information about the game of pool'

Stretch
12-14-2005, 05:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> loyter,

"Tounge in Cheek" intentions don't come accross to well in a typed message.

Most of the problem makers and trolls have been removed from this forum. The majority of the CCB members are very helpful. Sometimes the instructors start beating up on each other, to the CCB members delight. But, most of the time it is difficult for a 'newbie' to learn the culture in this or any other forum.

Many of us have been around so long, most of our posts have been deleted when this new BBB.threads™ was installed a few years ago. Some of the old posters didn't like the new format and just stopped posting altogether.

Yes, CCB has it assholes. I can be one when someone attacts this forum or one of its posters.

Try a little harder to understand that everyone one on this forum has the same goals 'learn and share information about the game of pool' <hr /></blockquote>

...and some of us are just too strange to fit in anywhere else /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif St.

heater451
12-14-2005, 06:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote loyter:</font><hr> This message board needs an enema.<hr /></blockquote>I picture Jack Nicholson as the Joker saying this. . . .



<blockquote><font class="small">Quote loyter:</font><hr>. . .Maybe that's part of the pool culture, but it's easy to see through, and it's annoying.<hr /></blockquote>and<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>. . .CCB has it assholes<hr /></blockquote>C'est la vie.




==================================

pigbrain
12-14-2005, 06:27 PM
the forum is a society, we always forget it.
it is a society in which we can only talk. i learn quite alot here, though i can not wholly understand all of the sentences posted here. English is not my native language.
i am more active in one of our chinese billiardsforums, i will share what i learned here and there, i don't care who says that he is better than me, or perform better than me, or shoot better than me.
here in our forum, most of the members are young, about 20~30 years old. it is a long way to go, we have no certified instructor here.
just find what you want here, maybe someone saying about you, has his reason, maybe not. conflicting is not as bad as you think.
please feel free to blame me, if i say some words (let me look up the dictionary first...) (no result) that make you unhappy.

Scott Lee
12-14-2005, 08:07 PM
loyter...Some of your points are valid, and well-stated. Others are completely off base. Very few posters here have a "I'm better than you, so shove it" attitude. When I run into someone who says, "If you can't beat me, you can't teach me!", I wish them well, and go the other direction.
You're absolutely right that hundreds, if not thousands of great poolplayers have not had the benefit of a visit with a certified instructor. Heck, the program itself, is less than 20 yrs old, and pool has been played in this country for at least 200 years...10x longer. However, the instructor program has grown from a small handfull at the beginning, to now a few hundred qualified instructors, spread out over the planet; and is growing more each year.
Can someone be a great teacher without being certified? Certainly! Are they out there? I'm sure they are. As others said, there are many more 'good players' who believe they know how to teach, when in fact they don't. That's precisely what the certification program provides...a template for most of us to share information, on an ongoing basis, to make the entire program better each year. Some of us choose to take advantage of continuing education, and some don't. Even so, overall, certified instructors will likely provide a quicker path to success, for the player who wants to learn, than strictly trial &amp; error (through books &amp; videos), tournament play, or gambling. The well-rounded student of the game will likely pursue all three...and that is certainly what we, as instructors, would suggest, and support! Occasionally, a poster may suggest something that some of us find hilarious...which is why they sometimes get 'tongue-in-cheek' responses in return. Suggesting that some activities might be good for all, is, by nature, sometimes ludicrous, and sometimes gets acrimonious responses from the better players. I'm not saying it's right, but that's sometimes the way it is. Most of us here, who are good players, sincerely love the game, and are here to share what we know, with whoever can utilize the information. Do even instructors disagree occasionally? Sure...but that's why I advocate taking lessons from as many as you are able. Pick and choose what you like from each one, to create the game you want to build.

Scott Lee

Scott Lee

Drop1
12-14-2005, 09:04 PM
Why don't you go back,and read your own post "So I was playing in a local tournament last night" dated 11-11-05 5:07 P.M. If this forum ever gets an enema,you will be the turd marked phony.

randyg
12-15-2005, 06:03 AM
A new cue case......$225
A new cue......$500
A day with Scott Lee....Priceless

Chopstick
12-15-2005, 06:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> ...certified crudeness some offered to the general population.... <hr /></blockquote> <font color="red"> HEY, that's my job!!! </font color>

DickLeonard
12-15-2005, 07:48 AM
Loyter go into the archives and look up poster Chris Cass, the Patron Saint of pool posters. Just read some of his posts and how he always managed to bring civility to the Board.####

sidepocketsam
12-15-2005, 08:08 PM
This is funny to me. I don't post much here but I've lurked for a couple years now. I believe this board has the most sincere and helpful advice and comments I've seen on a message board. Less trolls too. I guess the reason I don't post as much here as I do at other boards is that on other boards I get too angry to control my impulse to get into a pissing match.

Maybe I'm missing something but I've gained a lot of respect for this board and I've been shooting pool pretty regularly for 30 some years. I have a cockiness about my game but I am open to reading advice and have tried many things I've learned from this board.

SPetty
12-16-2005, 02:48 PM
Thanks, sidepocketsam, for taking the time to write this. It kind of mirrors my view of this board as well.<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sidepocketsam:</font><hr> This is funny to me. I don't post much here but I've lurked for a couple years now. I believe this board has the most sincere and helpful advice and comments I've seen on a message board. Less trolls too. I guess the reason I don't post as much here as I do at other boards is that on other boards I get too angry to control my impulse to get into a pissing match.

Maybe I'm missing something but I've gained a lot of respect for this board and I've been shooting pool pretty regularly for 30 some years. I have a cockiness about my game but I am open to reading advice and have tried many things I've learned from this board. <hr /></blockquote>