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View Full Version : 14.1 Good/Bad Ending Sequence

qstroker2004
12-18-2005, 08:33 AM
I guess this is a two part situation for anyone's comment. Here is a Wei table of the layout. The 8 ball is the break ball for the next rack:

http://www.poolfanatic.com/tutorial/weitable.html

START(
%EO4U6%Gi5H8%HN6T2%IO8X4%PT6H2%QS9M3%R^8K2%Sa2W1%T R7X0%U\1S3
%Vf1[2%Wg6I0%XU6H2%_g4[0%`s2O4%ai1J1
)END

Here are the two issues:
1. The seven ball is an outlier from the rack, and of course you wouldn't ideally want to travel so far to get back to the other balls at the end of a rack. However, at some point in clearing this rack you would have had to go get that seven ball. Doing that requires you to leave the nice open clusters of balls begging to be knocked down like ducks. So, is leaving the seven for the end sequence, given the large target area defined by A-B-C-D such a bad idea?

2. In this rack, I identified the 8,5 and 9 as final balls early on. It isn't a stop-stop type sequence, but it seems to me that it is a pretty good sequence anyway. There is a fair amount of room for error, and you can even leave the 5 instead of the 8 for the break if you have to change plans.

Comments? BTW, I wanted to post this because Steve Lipsky had made some interesting comments awhile back about final sequences that I hadn't considered. I'm hoping someone at his level will comment on whether this sequence is not just possible or OK, but is it actually preferable (the 5 and 9, not necessarily the 7)?

Thanks,
Dan White

Bob_Jewett
12-18-2005, 04:36 PM
George Fels has an expression like "if all else is equal" in one of his books that describes 14.1 sequences. If all else were equal, it would be better to have a shorter run to the final three balls (not to mention an easier shot on the 7), but the situation you show looks well under control. I think three balls by the rack as you show is a good situation at the end. Often you have only two, which means you have to be more accurate on the position play for the key ball.

Steve Lipsky
12-18-2005, 09:45 PM
Hi Dan. The ending pattern you have shown is fine, but there is one pitfall to avoid with it. It happens to me all the time on this kind of pattern, and so I hope you can learn from my mistakes /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

When playing this sequence, you want to come to the area outlined by A and B in my diagram below. If you are not careful about this, you can come to the area shown by D. D is very bad! You no longer have sufficient angle on the 9 to get on the 5 or the 8 in the corner, and must follow to play the 5 in the side. Playing the 5 in the side is fine, as long as you get perfect on it - which is actually fairly difficult. So you'd like to avoid that if possible.

Shot 1:

START(
%EO4U6%Gi5H8%HN6T2%IO8X4%PT6H2%QX0R1%RV8P6%T[4U8%U\1S3%Vf1[2
%Wg6I0%XU6H2%_g4[0%`s2O4%ai1J1
)END

If you get to B, you can draw straight back on the 5, which I actually like. You can't help but get a nice angle on the 9 to now get on a proper breakshot.

If you get to A, you'll be forced to play the 9 now, come off the rail, and then play the 5. I like this a little less than getting to B, because it's actually fairly easy to get bad on the 5 after playing the 9.

There is a VERY key concept in all this. Take a look at the diagram below:

Shot 2:

START(
%EO4U6%HN6T2%Q_9]2%R^3]7%S\9]5%TV2]2%UT6S7%V^7M9%WZ7I6%XR5R1
%Y[8I8%Z[2I1%[S5R5%\[9J6%]]9M5%^S6S6%b^9N0%c^8M9%d^4M2
)END

The area outlined by the groups of arrows is where you need to be to get good on the 5 to get on the 8. The gap between the two groups is a "no man's land". Get in here, and you are going to be seriously out of line. Playing position for either of two zones that are not directly adjacent to each other can be dangerous. It's easier to get in the gap area than you might think.

In the next diagram, see the positional zone for just the 8 ball, the break shot:

Shot 3:

START(
%HN6T2%Q_9]2%R^3]7%S\9]5%TV2]2%W_7K5%XS2R1%Yd5U7%Z`5K5%[S6R8
%\X2V3%]c6V4%^X7V3
)END

OK, now think back to the original diagram with the 5-8-9. Playing the 9 to go off the rail and come back into the break ball positional zone (shot 3) is MUCH easier than playing the 9 off the rail to get into the two ball positional zone (shot 2). This is why it is better in my opinion to play the 5 to the 9 to the 8, rather than the 9 to the 5 to the 8. And to bring it full circle back to the original question: this is why when playing the 7 two rails, you make sure you come out a little further towards center table than closer to the side rail. You want to play the 5 next, not the 9.

I'm not sure I'm getting the point across in words as clearly as I see it in my mind. I hope so, because it is an important concept.

Anyway, hope this helps!

- Steve <font color="blue"> </font color>

Fran Crimi
12-19-2005, 07:27 AM
I think this situation calls for a little flexibility due to the position of the 7 ball. I wouldn't be comfortable shooting the 7 first due to the length of the shot and the difficulty of controling the cue ball after the shot. IMO, too many things can go wrong with bad speed on the 7 ball shot.

I would choose to shoot the 5 ball first, (since that area is where you're most flexible) and bring the cue ball closer to the 7 ball. Once you're closer to the 7 ball you can manipulate the cue ball easier to get to the 1 ball and ultimately the 8. If things go wrong you can always use the 1 ball as your break shot which isn't bad at all.

Fran

Rich R.
12-19-2005, 07:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I think this situation calls for a little flexibility due to the position of the 7 ball. I wouldn't be comfortable shooting the 7 first due to the length of the shot and the difficulty of controling the cue ball after the shot. IMO, too many things can go wrong with bad speed on the 7 ball shot.

I would choose to shoot the 5 ball first, (since that area is where you're most flexible) and bring the cue ball closer to the 7 ball. Once you're closer to the 7 ball you can manipulate the cue ball easier to get to the 1 ball and ultimately the 8. If things go wrong you can always use the 1 ball as your break shot which isn't bad at all.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
Fran, can you please elaborate a little bit regarding your statement about being more flexible by shooting the 5 ball first.
Before your post, I was thinking that shooting the 7 ball first was the best choice, because the cue ball would have a natural path for position and speed was the only variable. With the 8, 5 and 9 balls sitting in a row, you would have some choices, if your speed was a little off. Both the 5 and 8 are good break shots, which gives you more choices.
Maybe it is just my inexperience, but I seem to see more potential problems, when shooting the 5 ball first. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Qtec
12-19-2005, 08:03 AM
I dont play a lot of 14/1 but here's my 2ct.

In this position, the first Q I ask myself is 'what is my break-ball'? The 8 and the 5 look good so I dont want to them play first, if I can avoid it. That leaves the 9[ dont think so] and the 7. The 7 offers an easy shot that gives a natural angle to a spot with a HUGE margin of error.
I cant see any other better option. Its the margin of error factor that makes this shot so much better than the other options.

Q

Fran Crimi
12-19-2005, 08:36 AM
I think it's just a matter of personal preference, Rich, but I would feel more comfortable shooting the 5 ball with a full kill stroke to get close to the 7 than I would in shooting the 7 and having make sure not to overstroke or understroke the shot.
The way the table is diagramed, it looks to me like there's a pretty sharp angle on the 7. That means the shot would have to be struck delicately...not that easy to do with the distance between the cb and the 7. This type of shot is easy to overestimate or underestimate. If you understroke the shot, you may wind up with only the 1 ball to shoot, and you could see yourself with a fairly long back cut on the shot. On the other hand, you could overshoot the speed and wind up back where the cue ball is and have to manipulate back and forth across the table for position on the remaining 3 balls.

Fran

Fran Crimi
12-19-2005, 08:42 AM
I forgot to mention...there's another rule of thumb that involves balls lined up in a row. Two are okay, but when you get to three or more, there's a greater possibility for getting yourself into trouble because you're limiting yourself to the same pocket.

Fran

Rich R.
12-19-2005, 09:16 AM
Thanks for the explanation Fran.

qstroker2004
12-19-2005, 08:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Hi Dan. The ending pattern you have shown is fine, but there is one pitfall to avoid with it. It happens to me all the time on this kind of pattern, and so I hope you can learn from my mistakes /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

snip 5-9 sequence vs 9-5 sequence

I'm not sure I'm getting the point across in words as clearly as I see it in my mind. I hope so, because it is an important concept.<hr /></blockquote>

First, thanks Bob, Steve, Fran and others for responding.

Yes, I believe I understand your point. This is very interesting to me because since I don't get much chance to play with good players I don't get a sense of what they think is a risky position shot and what isn't. If you've learned from experience that one sequence works 80% of the time, and the other sequence works 50%, then that's a big difference in making long runs.

For what it is worth, I ended up in just the situation you discussed when you said it can be tricky to get position on the five from the nine.

START(
%EO4U6%Gt2B8%HN6T2%IO8X4%Pb5U5%QZ0Q7%RS8S0%Ua1T6%V G2C8%Wg6I0
%XU6H2%_E8C9%`D4G2%aO5S3
)END

I played zone position off the 7 in the corner and ended up at A. I then shot the 9 and came out to B, just short of straight in. I couldn't do anything from there so I switched gears and pocketed the 8, coming around the corner for a break on the 5. Of course this was a bail out maneuver and I ended up with a lower percentage position play, and a more difficult break shot.

My only consideration as to shooting the 5 or the 9 first was "Where am I going to end up after I shoot the 7? I'll figure out the rest of them after I see that...just get the cue ball within 2 feet of the other balls. Now maybe that isn't bad thinking for this shot, but I wonder if your way of thinking is what you need in order to play at the next higher level.

The only thing I have to wonder about your 5-9 shot sequence over 9-5 is how much harder the position play is off the 7 to get perfect on the 5. I have to compare that to getting from the 9 to the 5 and decide which is more difficult I suppose. In other words, is it harder to get from the 7 to the 5 than it is to get from the 9 to the 5. This seems to be the position zone for the 7-5 shot. Do you agree?

START(
%EO4U6%Gi5H8%HN6T2%IO8X4%PT6H2%QR4I1%Ra2K9%SR0S7%U \1S3%Vf1[2
%Wg6I0%XU6H2%_g4[0%`s2O4%ai1J1
)END

Let me backtrack over the other part of this question, which had to do with the 7 outlier and when you like to get it. Let's say there is a nice layout and there are no problems. Are you going to exit that nice open cluster of balls to get the 7 out early, or will you leave it till the end? Assume the 5 or 8 is the intended break ball. Do you consider the 7 a problem ball to get early, or a decent set up ball for the 5-9-8 ending sequence? Oh and assume the 7 is not a difficult shot. Wei is misleading, but it wasn't a touchy shot.

This layout is what I mean: Again, is the 7 a problem or a good set up shot?

START(
%AF2M4%BE6W2%CS3Q1%DG8P3%EO4U6%FM5M7%Gi5H8%HN6T2%I O8X4%JI9N7
%KJ4F0%LS3J7%MK2I5%NB6\1%OC9V0%PE7Q4%SN4^7
)END

Thanks again,
Dan

Steve Lipsky
12-20-2005, 07:01 PM
Hey Dan,

You wrote a good post, and you deserve better than this:

My legs and my brain no longer work.

I will try to respond when I regain even a marginal level of blood flow lol.

- Steve

Rod
12-20-2005, 11:23 PM
You understand that playing zone position in the end game is risky at best? In the last rack you had few options. You needed to get on the other side of the 5 and play it first if possible. Then leave an angle on the 9 to come back out for the 8.

In this rack the 7 is no problem unless you leave the same angle as before or there isn't another ball as a back up to play good position on the last three or 4 balls.

I'd clear most balls near the foot end including the 5 if possible,the 7 can wait. But if, regarding your question, should the 7 be left towards the end as well as the 5 - 9 I'd want this angle.
START(
%AC1B4%B[0\4%C[2\3%DC2C0%EO4U6%FB5B9%Gi5H8%HN6T2%IO8X4%JB7B5
%KB3B7%LB7B6%MB5\0%NB6\1%OB7\1%Pc6P2%Rc8_1%SN4^7
)END

Then play the 7-5-9. This way your comming into the angle instead of across the angle which is much more difficult. I'd rather not leave the 7 till last, the 12 is a better option or maybe the 3 depending how you planned the rack. In any case I don't like the 5 being there near the end either. Unless I leave a ball that easily sets me up for the correct angle.

Hope I didn't confuse you, just added my two bits worth and its late for me. Steve will give you a better explanation.

Rod

Fran Crimi
12-21-2005, 06:40 AM
I totally agree, Rod. That's what I was trying to say. The back cut on the 7 is a bad angle, and you are shooting across the desired zone rather than into the desired zone, which is why it's difficult to be exact.

By my comment of getting closer to the 7, I meant getting the angle you showed in your post. There are too many ways to make a mistake with the back cut angle in that situation, which is why I'd rather shoot the 5, get the better angle and distance from the 7 and then it would be easier to come back for the 1. I would have wanted to get either the 1 or the 5 out of there earlier, preferably the 1, however any of the three balls can be a successful break shot. None of them are considered 'hard.'

Fran

DickLeonard
12-21-2005, 07:42 AM
Steve one of these days I will learn how to use the wei table.####

Steve Lipsky
12-21-2005, 07:59 AM
Fran, my WEI table shows the layout Dan presented with no reasonable shot on any ball except the 7. That is the main reason I accepted it as a given that you'd have to start from there.

I agree with you that it's not the most desired "starter" ball to a pattern, but from the way the layout is shown on my WEI table, it's the only makeable first shot.

- Steve

Fran Crimi
12-21-2005, 09:29 AM
I agree Steve...it's hard to tell unless it's set up on a real table. I saw the shot differently, but as you said, it's a matter of interpreting the angles in the diagram.

Well, at least we have listed a few different perspectives, just in case.

Fran

Steve Lipsky
12-21-2005, 06:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote qstroker2004:</font><hr> The only thing I have to wonder about your 5-9 shot sequence over 9-5 is how much harder the position play is off the 7 to get perfect on the 5. I have to compare that to getting from the 9 to the 5 and decide which is more difficult I suppose. In other words, is it harder to get from the 7 to the 5 than it is to get from the 9 to the 5. This seems to be the position zone for the 7-5 shot. Do you agree?

START(
%EO4U6%Gi5H8%HN6T2%IO8X4%PT6H2%QR4I1%Ra2K9%SR0S7%U \1S3%Vf1[2
%Wg6I0%XU6H2%_g4[0%`s2O4%ai1J1
)END

<font color="blue"> Hi Dan. Yeah, this seems to be about right. You're definitely crossing into the angle, if I understand what you're asking, so that's not so great. But you don't have much choice, because from the way I see it, you'll be crossing into the angle no matter which ball you elect to play after the 7. </font color>

Do you consider the 7 a problem ball to get early, or a decent set up ball for the 5-9-8 ending sequence? Oh and assume the 7 is not a difficult shot. Wei is misleading, but it wasn't a touchy shot.

This layout is what I mean: Again, is the 7 a problem or a good set up shot?

START(
%AF2M4%BE6W2%CS3Q1%DG8P3%EO4U6%FM5M7%Gi5H8%HN6T2%I O8X4%JI9N7
%KJ4F0%LS3J7%MK2I5%NB6\1%OC9V0%PE7Q4%SN4^7
)END

<font color="blue">Hmmm, from this position, I'd want to get rid of the 7 fairly quickly. It's just not a ball that belongs in any reasonable end-pattern, mostly because there's no obvious ball for it to play position on. If there were a ball close to the opposite side pocket, it would be different.

I would consider leaving the 7 as the actual key ball, to tell the truth. It's not my first choice (or my 4th, lol), but if you only have to play position on a break shot from it, it works. It's the situation I described in my earlier post; since there's no "no-man's land" zone in playing position for the break shot, more key balls work. But I would definitely want to avoid leaving the 7 as the beginning of my end-rack.

From your rack, I would immediately be thinking of an end pattern like 11-3-8, or even 11-1-4 (in both those patterns, the ball listed last will be the break shot). In fact, from the position you have shown, once you play the 15-2-10 starting pattern, you could pretty much be too drunk to walk and still get on a perfect break shot for the 4. Just food for thought.

- Steve </font color>

qstroker2004
12-21-2005, 08:41 PM
Well, fwiw, in real life the seven is the only reasonable shot, and isn't very hard to make. Maybe I didn't diagram it quite right. It's just a matter of getting the right speed to get on the 5 where Steve wants it that is a bit tricky.

Thanks!
Dan

qstroker2004
12-21-2005, 08:47 PM
Thanks for taking the time to look into this, Steve.

I think you've answered pretty conclusively on this one. I do understand about getting rid of outliers, but this particular outlier (the 7) might also be good for a key ball set up, and I wanted someone with your experience to think out loud on it. I have to assume that if there were a couple of clusters to take care of you would do that before going up table for the 7. In that case, you might even leave the 7 for your actual key ball given that you might use up most of the rack while getting rid of the little clusters. Hope that made some sense.

Thanks again!
Dan

Steve Lipsky
12-22-2005, 08:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote qstroker2004:</font><hr>I think you've answered pretty conclusively on this one. I do understand about getting rid of outliers, but this particular outlier (the 7) might also be good for a key ball set up, and I wanted someone with your experience to think out loud on it. I have to assume that if there were a couple of clusters to take care of you would do that before going up table for the 7. In that case, you might even leave the 7 for your actual key ball given that you might use up most of the rack while getting rid of the little clusters. Hope that made some sense.<hr /></blockquote>

Dan, the above is stated very well. I would usually want to take care of some problem balls before the 7, and there will be those racks that the problem isn't solved very early. In those cases, I'd probably just leave the 7 for the key ball rather than use it as part of some end-rack pattern.

- Steve

qstroker2004
12-22-2005, 03:33 PM
Thanks for your comments, Steve. It is good for me to see when experienced players think a certain position play is too tricky, or not done at the right time.

Dan