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View Full Version : Tip Replacement Physics



Bassn7
12-28-2005, 04:37 PM
I've been replacing tips for 15 years, never a problem, until now. Putting a Moori Hard on a 12mm shaft. The tip lasts about 2 months and then off it goes. I don't think it's got anything to do with the glue, since I use the great Insta Flex Cyanoacrylate (Moori glue). I believe it has to do with the combination of the small glue area vs. the tip hardness. Tall hard tip on a small diameter = bad idea. All my other Morri tips 13 through 14 mm work great. What do you all think?

Cueless Joey
12-28-2005, 05:07 PM
Use Loctite 454 and your problem is solved.
Scratch the bottom of the tip with an 80-grit paper.
Put two glue rings on the face of the ferrule .

Big_Jon
12-28-2005, 08:25 PM
Follow Joey's advise, and also cut down the height.
Too tall of a tip on a skinny ferrule is just asking for it.

Cornerman
12-29-2005, 08:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> The tip lasts about 2 months and then off it goes. I don't think it's got anything to do with the glue, since I use the great Insta Flex Cyanoacrylate (Moori glue). I believe it has to do with the combination of the small glue area vs. the tip hardness. Tall hard tip on a small diameter = bad idea. All my other Morri tips 13 through 14 mm work great. What do you all think? <hr /></blockquote>Maybe your setup has gone bad?

Anyway, I do think that there is a height vs. diameter ratio (aspect ratio) that has to be considerd. Most tip installers will take off several layers on a Moori to keep it from being too tall. The taller it is, the more moment and possibly shear are at the glue line.

Fred

killerstroke
12-29-2005, 08:31 AM
I use Water Buffalo tips with a Loctite CA (Not sure which one) on 11.75mm tip and dont have a problem. I think Buffalo tips are one of the tallest tips. After danding the bottom of the tip I use a small center punch and poke a bunch of little holes in the bottom. I would be interested in knowing if the tip is coming off and leaving no leather on the ferrule, bits and pieces, or the ferrule is still covered. This would give a clue if it is really the glue. If it is leaving no leather behind, look at the glare of the glue to see if you are getting full coverage.

airyago
12-29-2005, 10:47 AM
I've always used Duro Super Glue GEL and never had a
tip to knock off. Ran out one time and used 3M SG GEL.
@#$% tip came off 6(six) times. So I always use Duro.
GEL is designed for porus surfaces like wood &amp; leather.

Try this:
With #150, sand ferrule base AND tip base because new
tips have a coating all around to seal out moisture.
The trick to glueing anything very well is simply put
a layer of glue on both surfaces. When you press the
two together the glue will stick immediately but not
lock right away. So you put the tip either down on
the table (or floor) or against the wall and push
hard for 20 seconds. This allows all the little
molecular strands to get real close and personal
as they intermingle and lock tightly in place.

Now for a sad story: Something I tried once.
(Yes, Mr.WolfDancer, they said I must have played
one time too many without my helmut).
See, I got tied of replacing my tip so often
(you know, to keep the tip consistant).
So I put a medium-hard(88) LePro on my stick.
Then I flattened the tip face and put on another
(one on top of one). The idea was to get much
more gradual change in the tip as it wore down.
And it looked sooooooo cool.
All my pool parlor pokies thought I was the real
bad-ass dude (ahh, for about 5 minutes anyway).
But on to the moral of my tale. The tip(s) stayed
on ok, but it no longer had the med-hard feel.
Doubling up the tips actually produce more of
a "soft(~65)" tip feel. Where are my spring-
force equations when I need them (duh).
Oh yeah, spring coefficient: k2 = k1 * 0.5 .
So if you want a soft tip and all you have is
hard ones, then just use two (or three, or four).
Just don't tell anybody that I said do it!

ALERT ALERT ***Dr. Dave*** ALERT ALERT
"Please check your email...important data I
sent you...would like your comments ASAP."

Wolf,
I'm gonna write up my VERY NEAT AIMING SYSTEM that I
think I invented ('cause I can't find it anywhere).
I want to see what ya'll think about it.
I think I'll call it "Pythagorean Pool Poking".
Or how about "Ghost Ball Busting".
It really does work ('specially for us injunears).
'ere-ya-go the GHOSTBALLBUSTER ta ta

SPetty
12-29-2005, 07:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote airyago:</font><hr> ...and put on another
(one on top of one). The idea was to get much
more gradual change in the tip as it wore down.
And it looked sooooooo cool.<hr /></blockquote>If you're staying up late some night and just looking around this forum, see if you can hunt down some posts by Spiderman, who has done a similar thing with his tip. I may not be remembering correctly, but he put on a tip pad, added a cut down hard tip and then added a triangle tip, I think. Anyway, he shared a picture of it and it was cool looking.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote airyago:</font><hr>Wolf,
I'm gonna write up my VERY NEAT AIMING SYSTEM that I
think I invented ('cause I can't find it anywhere).
I want to see what ya'll think about it.
I think I'll call it "Pythagorean Pool Poking".
Or how about "Ghost Ball Busting".
It really does work ('specially for us injunears).<hr /></blockquote>I almost PM'd you when you posted on this before. I'd really like to see what you've come up with.

TommyT
12-29-2005, 08:49 PM
Where can I find the 454??. Home Depot or Lowes??.

Cueless Joey
12-30-2005, 01:24 AM
No.
I get mine at Mcmaster online store.
454 is fast-setting btw. Very important to get that tip on the ferrule within 20 seconds of applying.
Wipe off excess on the sides so none get to the ferrule.
It gets hard fast. Might not hurt coating the ferrule with wax before applying the epoxy. Mcmaster (http://www.mcmaster.com/)

Paul_Mon
12-30-2005, 12:29 PM
Didn't I give you a tube???

SpiderMan
12-31-2005, 09:02 PM
Susan,

I've modified the formula a little, but you've got the gist of it. My favorite materials are a red fiber pad, a WB tip that's been pressed, and a french champion (pigskin) topper. Here's a link to the picture:

Pad+compressed WB+Champion (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/funkychateau/detail?.dir=9e1d&amp;.dnm=bdc7.jpg&amp;.src=ph)

You only play the pigskin, then replace it. I get about 4-6 months on one, playing three times per week, and I break with it also (just to convince myself that they'll take it).

SpiderMan (hope you're having a great new year's eve - I got your email)

SpiderMan
12-31-2005, 09:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> The tip lasts about 2 months and then off it goes. I don't think it's got anything to do with the glue, since I use the great Insta Flex Cyanoacrylate (Moori glue). I believe it has to do with the combination of the small glue area vs. the tip hardness. Tall hard tip on a small diameter = bad idea. All my other Morri tips 13 through 14 mm work great. What do you all think? <hr /></blockquote>Maybe your setup has gone bad?

Anyway, I do think that there is a height vs. diameter ratio (aspect ratio) that has to be considerd. Most tip installers will take off several layers on a Moori to keep it from being too tall. The taller it is, the more moment and possibly shear are at the glue line.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I'd second that comment. Unless you shorten the tip significantly, you are providing a lot of leverage for an off-center hit to break your bond. At the very least, I'd shorten it to an aspect ratio about the same as you use for larger (13mm and up) ferrules. Even that might not be conservative, since the glue area goes as the square of the diameter. A 12mm ferrule, while 92.3% as wide as a 13mm, only provides 85.2% of the glue area.

Also consider carefully whether anything has changed in your repair process. For example - is it possible that the tip is being allowed to "pull back" a little before the glue completely sets? This can create voids and weak areas underneath the tip. I've seen plenty of them on demounts. Is your work area colder than in the past? Try clamping for what may seem like a ridiculous length of time, like 30 minutes or longer.

SpiderMan

TommyT
12-31-2005, 09:20 PM
It's old now. Time for a new tube. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sid_Vicious
01-01-2006, 10:01 AM
Spiderman...I've forgotten what you said you feel is the improvement of this stack over a single tip. After playing with Royce's all-wood shaft/ferrule, which in it's design lightens the very end of the shaft at contact for a reason...your gradient tip seems contradictory. Would it not add weight, i.e. the gradient if chopped off and weighed in comparison to the single topper of choice? Seems to me that the tip choice is really a choice for grip and the response of hardness, and those variables can very easily be obtained with standard tip(s) experimentation. I know you've played with this gradient tip for a long time and are happy with it, but I must ask, "Haven't you maybe adjusted your personal stroke to that combination?" The cue you use is a hard hitting cue, I remember that from the first time you showed it to me years ago, and I seem to remember that you weren't sure if that cue was going to stick with you forever. I'm just thinking that may you have engineered a hybrid tip to accomplish some dampening of that cue, but wonder if you might simply be just as happy with a single tip of a comfortable hardness level. I'm not shooting down your success with this invention, but I felt that it deemed an opinion for others that it may very well be extra work to install, extra weight at the most expressive segment of the shaft, and possibly a tip that could require a certain level of diligence in getting used to. Knowing you like I do, I realize that you get very focused to the same thing, meaning that any change at all from what you've shot with for this long could haunt you upon any of your misses following any changes. I also know myself(as you do), I like a new cue and switch with little concern, as long as my Moori is on each. This makes you and I very different birds when it comes to equipment, which is perfectly fine, but I didn't know if the world in general would get a fundamental gain with this gradient tip in comparison with the standard tip with their particular desires of hardness and grip at contact.

Let's try something. Tell me the joint thread count for your shaft, and let's see in our general travels if anyone has one of Royce's shafts on their cues so we can possibly screw it on your butt for a test drive. I will project that you will find the ultra light weight in his all wood ferrule, using about any tip, gives you a lot more of what you are getting from your current gradient tip and synthetic ferrule at present.

So what's all this mean? Just an opinion that what has been personally "grown to" hybrid combo is possibly perfect for one player, yet is it really worthy of that extended effort for Joe-Q over a simple, single tip? I myself have toyed with many tip installs but eventually came right back in time to my standard of the Moori. Well that's not entirely true, cuz Royce's shaft was a definite change in itself.

Refresh my memory Spidey, what exactly do you find was improved in your hit after playing with this tip...sid

BLACKHEART
01-02-2006, 08:13 AM
I use a lot of Water Buffalo tip &amp; I have come up with a tip height that works for me. I use a .180 measurement (from the bottom to the begining of the crown), for a 13mm(.512), diameter tip. .180 divided by .512 = .35(35%).
So for a 12mm(.472) tip I multiply that by 35%(.35), &amp; come up with a height of .165. Does any of that make sense to anybody?...JER

Big_Jon
01-02-2006, 06:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> I use a lot of Water Buffalo tip &amp; I have come up with a tip height that works for me. I use a .180 measurement (from the bottom to the begining of the crown), for a 13mm(.512), diameter tip. .180 divided by .512 = .35(35%).
So for a 12mm(.472) tip I multiply that by 35%(.35), &amp; come up with a height of .165. Does any of that make sense to anybody?...JER <hr /></blockquote>
Jer,

While i haven't used that exact formula, or any for that matter, it makes perfect sense to me.

SpiderMan
01-04-2006, 11:44 AM
Sid,

My (perceived) advantage is that I have a very hard pigskin tip that, due to the additional "padding" of the non-contacting underlayment, emulates the feel of a softer tip without the accelerated wear.

Adding tip height would increase effective end mass (and squirt) of the cue only if the tip density exceeds that of the ferruled end of the shaft. I don't believe that's significant at all for my cue, on a predator it may or may not be.

I like Royce's lamination scheme better than Predator's, perhaps it will result in better warp resistance. Both cues utilize similar technology (hollowing) to achieve low end mass and reduced squirt, so it makes me wonder if Royce will have a lawsuit on his hands if he ever gets big enough to show up on their radar.

I've shot with the OB-1, like the Predator it's something you must adopt or leave alone. My personal cue's squirt pivot point is very near my normal bridge distance when using an aramith cueball, which facilitates BHE should I want to use that technique. And it might possibly make me more accurate on long straight shots due to auto-compensation for stroke imperfections.

Of course, there's always the "wow" factor to consider .... pool is like golf in more ways than one /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

rbc
01-04-2006, 09:18 PM
spiderman

I understand your thoughts on the built up tip issue. Most definitely, the tip does not increase tip end mass in your configuration. Most tips have a specific gravity of around 1, but most ferrule material is at least 1.3, so replaceing ferrule with tip is a good thing. The only problem is that tips are easily the most inconsistent thing we use in a pool cue. Not only that, they change considerably through their life. So exchanging ferrule for tip has it's limits for sure. I have always worried about the side loads on off center hits with "tall" tips.

As far as the Predator patent is concerned, we do not infringe their patent. The Predator shaft is hollow to achieve their low tip end mass, but our shaft is not hollow.

I don't personally use the BHE method. With the OB-1, I don't find I need to accomodate english so much in my aim. I aim the same way whether it is center ball, just a little off center, or extreme off center. I do pay attention to my stroke speed and object ball throw, though.

Anyway, it is good to talk to you, so to speak. I haven't seen you in a long time.

Royce Bunnell
Owen Bunnell Inc.
www.obcues.com (http://www.obcues.com)

SpiderMan
01-05-2006, 09:03 AM
Royce,

Good to see you online!

I didn't realize you were reducing mass only by selection of material densities. Sid V recently retipped one of your shafts for a mutual acquaintance. I think he told me that the wooden ferrule was hollow, so I surmised that this was a density-reduction scheme. The hollowing concerned him because of the tip not being supported/glued in the center. Was this a prototype shaft that differs from the ones you are currently making?

BTW, my teammate who played with your crew last season still uses his OB shaft, and prefers it over his standard Schon. He's still on the original tip.

SpiderMan

Deeman3
01-05-2006, 09:46 AM
Royce,

I just wanted to say that your assembly looks, if nothing else, very elegant. Your web site is also well done. How is business? Are you having the market results you expected?

I am thinking of asking for a pre-assembled blank just as a piece of industrial art.

Deeman

Cornerman
01-05-2006, 11:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Royce,

Good to see you online!

I didn't realize you were reducing mass only by selection of material densities. <hr /></blockquote>I believe Bob Jewett shoots with a Balabushka with no ferrule. It offers him less squirt while using a normal shaft.

From my standpoint, because we use tips on the sticks, a ferrule is by and large unnecessary and unnecessarily adds weight to the tip end.

But, because the ferrule has been part of a cuestick for so long, it stays. I can only assume that a ferrule came before a tip, and it was placed because the queue of the mace kept on splitting.

Fred

Cornerman
01-05-2006, 11:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> So for a 12mm(.472) tip I multiply that by 35%(.35), &amp; come up with a height of .165. Does any of that make sense to anybody?...JER <hr /></blockquote>

Sure it makes sense. 35% is your aspect ratio.

Fred

Deeman3
01-05-2006, 12:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Royce,

Good to see you online!

I didn't realize you were reducing mass only by selection of material densities. <hr /></blockquote>I believe Bob Jewett shoots with a Balabushka with no ferrule. It offers him less squirt while using a normal shaft.

From my standpoint, because we use tips on the sticks, a ferrule is by and large unnecessary and unnecessarily adds weight to the tip end. <font color="blue"> Fred, Does this mean you don't have ferrules on any of your shafts? Just Curious...Deeman </font color>

But, because the ferrule has been part of a cuestick for so long, it stays. I can only assume that a ferrule came before a tip, and it was placed because the queue of the mace kept on splitting.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

pooldaddy9
01-05-2006, 03:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Use Loctite 454 and your problem is solved.
Scratch the bottom of the tip with an 80-grit paper.
Put two glue rings on the face of the ferrule . <hr /></blockquote>

I go alone with the 454, I have had only one tip come off in 12 years. Smallest tip being a 10.5

pooldaddy9
01-05-2006, 03:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TommyT:</font><hr> It's old now. Time for a new tube. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Keep the glue in the refrigerator after you open it.

Cornerman
01-05-2006, 03:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Fred, Does this mean you don't have ferrules on any of your shafts? Just Curious...Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

I was going to try it out. Ray Schuler supposedly hated ferrules, as he didn't think they made any engineering sense. But, since I've gone back to normal squirt shafts and find them more to my liking (to my ingrained way of aiming), then there's little reason to have no ferrule for me.

OTOH, I might get one made just for S &amp; G. If I were to do it, then I'd have a fiber pad put on the end of the shaft, and then the tip.

Fred

DickLeonard
01-06-2006, 07:29 AM
Tipless Joey how long after appplying the tip can you play with the Cue.####

rbc
01-07-2006, 06:40 AM
Deeman3

Thanks for the kind words about the shaft and the website. Melinda Hinojosa put the site together for us and she has done an excellent job. We should have a shopping cart up in a couple of days. If anyone would like to contact her, send me a PM and I will get you in contact with her.

As far as putting the tip directly on the end of the shaft, it certainly can be done and should reduce the tip end mass some. Just remember that when a tip mushrooms, it doesn't just mushroom on the top. The bottom will try to mushroom also. If the shaft is the only thing holding that tip bottom from mushrooming, the shaft could split. I would strongly recommend a fiber pad between the tip and the shaft. It would just be good insurance.

Just my thoughts

Royce

Cueless Joey
01-07-2006, 02:44 PM
Best have it sit overnight so the epoxy doesn't breakdown.

DickLeonard
01-10-2006, 07:54 AM
Cueless I always used hot melt glue for my tips when I started running rooms. Hot melt was just coming out in the 60s I recommend it to Petey Palmer and he added the glue gun to his catalog for sale.

I could put a tip on and in ten minutes you could be playing with the cue. My favorite story was when Jimmy Relihan was playing Boston Joey nineball at the Albany Goldan Cue and he lost his tip he came up to me and asked if he could borrow my cue. I asked why and he said he had lost his tip. I said Jim you can borrow it but I can have a tip on that in 10 minutes it's up to you. He said put the tip on it. Ten minutes later he is back in action and won the money.

The only thing I did different is I would cut a piece of glue and cut an x in the tip placing the glue on the tip, heat the gun and melt the glue and quickly put the tip on the cue. Using the gun it was hard to measure the glue,drop the gun and put it on the cue. Most times the glue had already set up and you would have to start over.

I have two tips on my cue that are over 30 years old so I know the glue holds. ####